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Proclaimer, I made this post to you and Gene…
In the post I asked one RHETORICAL question (in the green box) and three very explicit ACTUAL questions (in the red boxes). As you did yesterday, you “answered” the RHETORICAL question and ignored the ACTUAL questions. And I put answered in quotations because your “answer” was laughable – but I’ve already addressed that in another post.
This post is to make sure you see the ACTUAL questions I asked you and Gene. They are the ones in the red boxes above. Please DIRECTLY and HONESTLY answer THOSE questions for me now. Thanks.
Proclaimer, you have claimed that God merely allowed the lights of the heaven to shine through to the earth on the fourth day. I have two simple questions for you:
1. WHY have you come to that conclusion? (In other words, what exactly leads you to believe such a thing?)
2. Does scientism allow for vegetation – including fruiting trees – to be in existence before the lights of heaven have even shone upon the earth?
Proclaimer, you have claimed that Gen 1:1 is separate from the rest of Genesis, and that the creation of the heaven and the earth were not a part of the events of the first day, but that they were already in existence before those first day events. I have one simple question for you:
1. WHY have you come to that conclusion? (In other words, what exactly leads you to believe such a thing?)
Hi Mike,
YOU: The first three days (before the sun, moon, and stars) were also called “days” and “nights” by God, right? Those first three days also had a period of light and period of darkness – just like “days” do today, right?
Genesis 1:3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.
ME: MIKE WHAT MAKES YOU SURE THAT THE WORDS “LIGHT” and “DARKNESS” WERE IN ACTUAL FACT
ONLY LITERALLY SO?
GOD IS LIGHT
THE DEVIL IS DARKNESS!
John1:4In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
OK Mike?
HERE IS MY FANTASIES NOW:
HUMAN’S LIFE IS LIGHT!
LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT!
THAT MEANS THAT GENESIS 1:3 WAS CREATED WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF
THE SPIRITUAL LIGHT AND DARKNESS!
4And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.
AGAIN MIKE, WHAT MAKES YOU SURE THAT GOD DIVIDED THE LIGHT AND THE DARKNESS ONLY
PHYSICALLY AND NOT ALSO SPIRITUALLY?
CONSIDERING IN John1:5 it says:
5And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING IN ORDER FOR GOD TO CREATE NO MATTER WHAT AND WHO IN THIS NEW CREATION BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL, HE HAD TO ESTABLISH AN INTERMEDIATE SPIRIT, PRECISELY ALL BY “THE WORD” JESUS, AS THE ONLY MEDIATOR/SPIRIT BETWEEN GOD AND HIS GENERAL WORK!
Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and effectual, and more piercing than any two edged sword; and reaching unto
the division of the soul and the spirit,
of the joints also and the marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
OK? Mike, IN THE ABOVE IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT
SPIRITUALLY THE LIGHT AND DARKNESS IN GENESIS 1:4 ARE SEPARATED BY
“THE WORD” JESUS AS A SPIRIT! PRECISELY
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD Mr. Mike!
4And God saw the light that it was good;…
HE IS THE ONLY INTERMEDIATE SPIRIT!
5And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day
NOW THE ABOVE IS SIMPLY SAYING THAT GOD
CALLED THE LIGHT DAY and
THE DARKNESS NIGHT!
BUT IN ACTUAL FCT THERE WAS NEITHER
DAY NOR NIGHT YET AS SUCH! Mr. Mike!
THAT’S MY FANTSIES
and there was evening and morning one day
NOW I LEAVE IT TO YOU TO BE AWARE WHAT IN ACTUAL FACT THE WORD
“DAY” IS REFERRING TO
I KNOW! BUT IT’S ONLY MY FANTASIES! NO GOOD FOR YOU!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike: The first three days (before the sun, moon, and stars) were also called “days” and “nights” by God, right? Those first three days also had a period of light and period of darkness – just like “days” do today, right?
Carmel: MIKE WHAT MAKES YOU SURE THAT THE WORDS “LIGHT” and “DARKNESS” WERE IN ACTUAL FACT ONLY LITERALLY SO?
I have no valid reason to think otherwise. There was darkness over the face of the deep, and then God created light. Not only that, God separated the light from the darkness to create “day” and “night”.
So what is there in the words of Genesis to make anyone think this wasn’t typical light and typical darkness? I mean, Satan isn’t called “night”, is he? And God isn’t called “day”, right?
So the bottom line is that there’s no reason for me to take the Hebrew words as some mysterious message, when it seems clear enough that it’s talking about regular light, regular darkness, regular days, and regular nights.
The “eternal nature of the cosmos”? Are you suggesting that the heaven wasn’t created, but is from eternity?
Didn’t say that, yet you quote it as if I did. Read what I said slowly please.
Proclaimer: Buy a powerful telescope look at the eternal nature of the cosmos.
I’ve read about God’s eternal nature, but why do you think the nature of the universe is also eternal?
I don’t say that the universe is eternal. It could be though. An eternal God can generate an eternal universe I guess. But if I look at the size of the known universe and especially when I can comprehend the scale of it, then that shows the eternal nature of God.
A pizza in fry pan with a lid on top that sparkles, doesn’t show eternal nature. It shows a technically advanced alien race or just a really big life form compared to us. Such a life form would likely have a god above it.
The scriptures tell us that the universe was created (not from eternity) and that it will end (not to eternity). So no, the universe most certainly does not have an eternal nature.
Anyway, enough pontificating. You have direct questions waiting for direct answers. Chop, chop.
Chop, chop
Will do some chopping later. I haven’t read those questions. Which question is the most important?
See my argument to Proclaimer on this subject. It is 6 posts above this one. In short, we don’t know how God experiences days, but Peter was certainly not trying to say that exactly every thousand years that go by on earth God counts as a single day in heaven.
Exactly. It is basically saying that a day to us is 24 hours or so. A day to him is LIKE a thousand years. Or basically a huge amount of time. Likewise, he can draw out a day to be LIKE a thousand years or a very long period of time.
Limiting him to that Rolex on your wrist seems against everything the bible teaches us about God.
Proclaimer: Buy a powerful telescope look at the eternal nature of the cosmos.
Also Proclaimer: …no one is saying this. Only you so far have mentioned this.
🙂
Proclaimer: It is basically saying that a day to us is 24 hours or so. A day to him is LIKE a thousand years. Or basically a huge amount of time. Likewise, he can draw out a day to be LIKE a thousand years or a very long period of time.
Limiting him to that Rolex on your wrist seems against everything the bible teaches us about God.
Show us. Find a scripture or two where God talks to human beings about a certain number of days, but God is really talking about a certain number of thousand year periods instead. Is there a second witness to your assumption that when God says “days” to human beings, He is talking about thousand, million or billion year periods? Or do you only make that assumption in Genesis because you (erroneously) believe it will help you to align the Bible and Scientism?
Find us a second witness.
Proclaimer: I haven’t read those questions. Which question is the most important?
They are all important. I’ll wait until you’ve had time to read what I wrote today. You’ll find it very enlightening, and it’ll show you that not one of the rescue devices you’ve tried to deploy actually hold up to scrutiny.
Site has dropped out of search. So have amended the title of this topic as this could be the cause due it being mentioned multiple times under Recent Replies.
Second Witness
Show us. Find a scripture or two where God talks to human beings about a certain number of days, but God is really talking about a certain number of thousand year periods instead. Is there a second witness to your assumption that when God says “days” to human beings, He is talking about thousand, million or billion year periods? Or do you only make that assumption in Genesis because you (erroneously) believe it will help you to align the Bible and Scientism?
Find us a second witness.
That one witness is enough because it specifically states that a day to God is like a very long time. It is clear and not hard to understand. It is either true or not. A day is like a very long period to God. It is not 24 hours.
So let’s look at a second witnesses.
Micah 7:11:
The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries. In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt …”Ask yourself if this is 24 hours? No. Equally it is obviously not 1000 years either. So ‘day’ just means a period of time that has a beginning and end.
Remember when I mentioned this in another post? “Back in my mother’s day.” In English, we use the word day to mean a period of time. And like all periods in time, they begin and end which is why they are defined in the first place. That is they have a morning and evening. Ask yourself this. If I said “back in my mother’s day”. Would you think 24 hours? No. And my mother’s day would have a start and an end. That is, a morning and evening. The most common day of course will be 24 hours because that is the period of time that is most common to us. But that is not always the case for us and certainly not God.
Another example could be Trump winning the 2024 election and stating “it’s a new day for America”. Does that mean the next day things go back to Biden’s Administration? Is this new day exactly 24 hours long? No. And in this context, the new day would have a morning and evening of at least 4 years in between. But that new day might last for decades.
yō·wm:
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day’s journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow.’Note: Ancient languages did not have the expansive vocabulary that English has today. New words get added into the English dictionary all the time as our knowledge increases. The ancients didn’t have a name for a number that starts with one and has a hundred zeros. That is called a googol. So if they had to express that number if they were talking about sand grains for example, then they would use the closest word which wouldn’t likely be that accurate. But if you wanted to get all scientific about it and take that word literally, then all the beaches in the world might have only 1,000 sand grains.
Proclaimer: That one witness is enough because it specifically states that a day to God is like a very long time. It is clear and not hard to understand. It is either true or not. A day is like a very long period to God. It is not 24 hours.
Peter’s statement has no bearing on our discussion, because we’re not talking about how God experiences days, but about what God means when He talks to humans about a certain number of days.
I thought I made it clear that I was asking for a second witness to your claims about Genesis. Here’s what I wrote…
Mike: Find a scripture or two where God talks to human beings about a certain number of days, but God is really talking about a certain number of thousand year periods instead… Or do you only make that assumption in Genesis?
You and Gene claim that, although God uses the words “day” and “days” when talking to humans about the creation event, He is really talking about six “long periods of time”, right? And I’m asking you to provide a second witness where God spoke about a certain number of days to humans, but really meant “long periods of time” instead of literal 24-hour days.
Please find me a second witness to that.
Proclaimer: So let’s look at a second witnesses.
Micah 7:11:
The day of building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries.Ask yourself if this is 24 hours? No.
No, that is not 24 hours – but neither does God mention a certain number of days.
Proclaimer: Remember when I mentioned this in another post? “Back in my mother’s day.” In English, we use the word day to mean a period of time.
Yes, I remember. Do you remember that I not only agreed 100%, but even said that the Hebrews used the word “yom” EXACTLY like we use the English word “day”, ie: sometimes 24 hours, sometimes 12 hours, sometimes an unspecified period of time. I even made a sentence that used all three…
Back in Noah’s day, God told him that in 7 days, it would rain for 40 days and 40 nights.
The red one is an unspecified period of time, the blue one is 24 hours, and the green one is 12 hours.
Proclaimer: And my mother’s day would have a start and an end. That is, a morning and evening.
No. We can talk about “back in your mother’s day”, but nobody has ever said, “back in the morning/evening of your mother’s day”. Nor has anyone ever included a certain number into the statement. Let me give another example…
Back in David’s day, people were working nights for two days, and then days for three days, and got paid on the sixth day.
Unspecified period of time, 24 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 24 hours
Notice that every “day” that is described by a certain number is either 12 hours or 24 hours. And the only “day” that refers to an unspecified period of time does not – and cannot – include a number. If the “day” includes a number, it is ALWAYS either a 12 or 24 hour normal day.
All the days in Genesis 1 are identified by numbers, Proclaimer. You claim that even with the number, they can still mean “long time periods”. I’m asking for a second witness to support your claim. We’ve already offered 2 additional witnesses (Ex 20 and Ex 31) to support our claim that they are literal days. We now add to that EVERY scripture in the Bible where God talks to humans about a certain number of days – because they ALL reference literal 12 or 24 hour days.
We only ask ONE second witness to support your claim. Tick tock…
Please see the second post on this page and address the 3 questions in the red rectangles.
Please see the third post on this page and address the 2 numbered questions.
Please see the fourth post on this page and address the numbered question.
That makes six questions and one request for a second witness that we’re waiting on. Chop, chop…
(Oh, and please quote each question in its entirety, and directly answer it. We’re not looking for more pontification – just DIRECT answers to DIRECT questions. Thanks.)
Hi Mike,
Carmel: MIKE WHAT MAKES YOU SURE THAT THE WORDS “LIGHT” and “DARKNESS” WERE IN ACTUAL FACT ONLY LITERALLY SO?
You: I have no valid reason to think otherwise.
THE VALID REASON IS THAT WE ARE ANALYZING GOD’S WORK AND HIS MYSTERIES! Mr. Mike!
Genesis 1: 2And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made.
You: There was darkness over the face of the deep, and then God created light.
Me: Mike, reading the above, GOD DIDN’T PRECISELY CREATED LIGHT!
GOD SAID “BE LIGHT MADE” AND LIGHT WAS MADE!
NOT CREATED! OK?
Genesis 2:3 And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work
which God created and made.
Reading the above, IT CLEARLY SAYS that God not only created things but also MADE THINGS. WHEN READING SUCH TERMS WITHIN THE CONCEPT OF SCRIPTURE WE MUST REFLECT, WE ARE NOT ANALYZING A MERE STORY FROM A PAPERBACK. GOD NOT ONLY SPEAKS AND REFERS TO HIS PHYSICAL WORK BUT IN THE SAME INSTANT HE ALSO DOES SO IN RELATION TO HIS SPIRITUAL WORK, PLUS THAT HE ALSO TELLS US THINGS ABOUT HIM.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable
You: So what is there in the words of Genesis to make anyone think
this wasn’t typical light and typical darkness?
I made it clear IN MY POST IMMEDIATELY AFTER I ASKED THE QUESTION YOU POSTED BUT YOU LEFT IT OUT!
I said:
GOD IS LIGHT
THE DEVIL IS DARKNESS!
5And he called the light Day,
and the darkness Night; …..
OK, Mike?
God called THE LIGHT day and DARKNESS night! NOW READ:
1John1:5 And this is the declaration which we have heard from him, and declare unto you:
That God is light, and in him there is no darkness.
From the above, we are aware that
GOD IS LIGHT and in Him, THERE’S NO DARKNESS!
So we can conclude that DARKNESS in the above is a reference to EVIL/DEVIL/SATAN! NO?
Luke 33:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, you did not stretch forth your hands against me:
but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
SATAN IS DARKNESS NO?
Now going back to Genesis 5
God called the light Day,
and the darkness Night;
Thus within this TERM: God is day and Satan is Night!
You: I mean, Satan isn’t called “night”, is he? And God isn’t called “day”, right?
NO WRONG!
You: So the bottom line is that there’s no reason for me to take the Hebrew words as some mysterious message,
ME: AND HOW THERE IS!
when it seems clear enough that it’s talking about regular light, regular darkness, regular days, and regular nights.
NOT WHAT IT SEEMS CLEAR, BUT WHAT IT REALLY IS CLEAR!
4And God saw the light that it was good; and
Mike, are you in the position to EXPLAIN
WHAT KIND OF LIGHT GOD CREATED ACCORDING TO YOU!
he divided the light from the darkness.
ALSO, EXPLAIN HOW DID GOD DIVIDE THIS LIGHT FROM DARKNESS?
BY THE WAY, JUST READ HEREUNDER THOUGH AND SEE
MORE THAN CLEAR
WHAT KIND OF LIGHTS (PLURAL) GOD CREATED HERE, WHILE IN Genesis 1:3 IN THE SINGULAR HE SAID:
Be light made. And light was made.
And God said: Let there be lights made in the firmament of heaven,
to divide the day and the night,
and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: 15To shine in the firmament of heaven, and to give light upon the earth. And it was so done.
16And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars.
17And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. 18And to rule the day and the night, and
to divide the light and the darkness.
And God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and morning were the fourth day.
I WONDER WHAT THE WORDS
“EVENING AND MORNING WERE THE FOURTH DAY ” ARE REFERRING TO APART FROM THE WAY WE KNOW THEM, THEY ARE WRITTEN ENIGMATICALLY AFTER ALL!
For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Not only that, God separated the light from the darkness to create “day” and “night”.
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