Conception

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 24 2007,09:34)

WJ; A very well deliberated and executed post.  I would only add that Christ spoke of a relationship with his Father before the foundation of the world and before he was sent down from heaven.  There can be nothing metaphorical about a relationship.  So when Christ was in heaven with his father he could have only been the Son of God.  If he were the Word he would be God himself and contradict his own teaching that he was not God but the Son of God.  I know we have had contentions on this issue in the past, but I still believe that any doctrine that holds that Christ was anything less or more than the Son of God in heaven prior is a denial of Christ Sonship, which he was emphatic about and was identified as such by all who knew him in scripture, even the soldiers who crucified him. Take Care Steven

mr. steve

Of course we disagree.

The context of John 1:1-14 clearly shows Yeshua is the “Word” that was made flesh, or tabernacled among us. Even if the “Word” was the spoken word of God as you say and was made flesh, then if that “Word” is the son of God, and not God as Jn 1:1 clearly says, then that means that Gods “Word” would have to have changed. God and his word is immutable.

How is it that you can say that Jesus can not be both the son of God and God (not the Father), when I have a Son who is equally human as I am?

Could not the Father “Begat” a Son who is equally of the same nature as himself? Jesus said he came from God. No other being can say that.

Think about what “image of the invisible God” means. To be the “Image” of God one would have to be equal to God in nature, power, essence, substance and everything that God is, or you dont have the “Full Image” of God.

Jesus is the “Express image of his person/substance of God. Everything that we shall ever know or see from God the Father will be given to us by Yeshua

Some would say “Image” is not the same as the source. I disagree. If you look into a mirror you will see a “dead image” of yourself. I could take a rock and break the “image” of your face in the mirror and you would be untouched. Jesus is not a “dead image” of God.

On the other hand if I look at you face to face without the mirror and hit you in your face with my fist then I just hit the “live image” of your self. If I walk away from a mirror does my image cease.

Jesus said “How long have I been with you Philip and yet you have not known *me*, he that hath seem me hath seen the Father. This was not a mirror image of the Father. He did not say you are seeing the likeness of the Father. He said you have seen the Father/God.

He is the “Image of the invisible God”. He is the revealing of God.

God has never been without his image no more than he has never been without a “Word”!

By him all things were created and all things are upheld by the word of his power and by him all things consist.

The Father is in him, but he is equally in the Father containing all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

No mere man could possibly hold this kind of glory and power which is limitless.

IMHO

[Samuel]

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To deny JESUS came in the FLESH is that spirit of Antichrist.

I'd also like to point out another very interesting point made by this scripture…”and even now already is it in the world.”

So…that is telling us that the Spirit of Antichrist was already in the world …THEN…At their time.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 24 2007,11:40)

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 1 John 4:3   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. To deny JESUS came in the FLESH is that spirit of Antichrist. I'd also like to point out another very interesting point made by this scripture…”and even now already is it in the world.”   So…that is telling us that the Spirit of Antichrist was already in the world …THEN…At their time.

samuel

Yes but he was also the “Root” of David as well as his “offspring'.

If he was the “root” of David then that means that David came from Christ, by whom and through whom all things were made.

Therefore we read Jesus words…

Matt 22:42
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Who was Davids Lord? Yeshua is telling them he was Davids Lord! Paul says he is the Lord from heaven.

So because he was Davids “root” he could also be his “offspring” by coming in the likeness of sinfull flesh.

When John penned Jn 1:1 and 14 he was saying that Yeshua the Word/God came in the flesh. so when he writes 1 Jn he is confirming that whoever denys that Yeshua the Word/God came in the flesh is the Spirit of antichrist.

[Jodi]

Mandy,

Where does it say that Jesus is God’s Son according to his birth?
There are three scriptures that refer to Jesus as being God’s only Son-

Joh 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:18 – Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
1Jo 4:9 -This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

We are told that Jesus is God’s Only Son, however we are never told he is such according to his birth or according to his flesh.

Are these scriptures telling us that Jesus is part God, or that it was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that Mary was found with child?

Mt 1:18 – This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Mt 1:20 -But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Luke 3 gives the genealogy of Jesus and what does it tell us? –that Jesus is technically God’s son through being related to Adam!

Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Adam was seen as being God’s son through God’s creation of him. God begot Adam. Meaning God caused Adam to exist, as well as Fathered him (loved and guided him). God’s relationship to Adam is the primary example of what a father/son relationship is, being that it occurred before Adam had Cane. Adam, by his sin, broke that relationship and brought all of mankind into separation from God. Jesus was born a descendant of David and Adam, therefore he was born like the rest of mankind, with weak flesh. What does it mean to have weak flesh? It means our mind struggles to do good when faced with the knowledge of death. What does God’s work in Jesus teach us however? That God’s Spirit working in us can overcome that struggle.

Mandy, these scriptures do a really good job of explaining my point about how our mind determines if we are sons and daughters of God.

Ephesians 4:22-23 “that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,”

Colossians 1: 21 “And you -once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,”

Revelations 3:21 “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.”

What did Christ overcome?

Romans 8:7″Because the mind of the flesh is emnity to God, for the law of God it does not subject itself.”

Ephesians 2:14-15 “For he himself is our peace, who has made both one, and broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in his flesh the enmity…”

God’s Spirit in Jesus had nothing to do with his biology, it had everything to do with Jesus’ mind and breaking the separation Adam had created. Reconcile means to reunite, patch up, resolve, bring together. Adam in his ignorance and inexperience went against the will of God, and unveiled the weak human mind. By this he separated himself from God and was no longer seen as His child, but a child of wrath and death. Jesus overcame the weak human mind and reconciled all peoples back to God.

John 1:12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who does right has been born of him.
1Jo 3:9 Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jo 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child.
1Jo 5:4 for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith.

These scriptures clearly indicate that being begotten by God has nothing to do with being part biologically God; and everything to do with the fruit God’s Spirit bears on our hearts and minds.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus is the only born Son of God, because he is the only human who received the Spirit without measure. Though Jesus’ body was flesh his mind was of the Spirit of God.

Ro 8:4 – so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:5 – For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Ro 8:6 -To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Ro 8:9 – But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Ro 8:10 – But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 – If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
Ro 8:13 – for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Ro 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

[Jodi]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 24 2007,06:04)

Quote (Jodi @ Oct. 24 2007,03:21) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 23 2007,15:25) Hi WJ, Quote Your opinion. I could also say that if you deny that Jesus came in the flesh then you are of the spirit of antichrist. I have never denied that Jesus came in the flesh. He was born, wasn't he? Quote But jesus conception is not a “natural conception” is it? I believe that it is. Jesus coming in the flesh means that he was nothing but flesh and blood, meaning fully human! Saying that he was biologically not human means denying flesh and blood. You said earlier if we took a DNA test of Jesus, you didn't think it would be the same as ours, that's denying Jesus came in the flesh in my opinion. Our DNA code says we are human, when the bible refers to us as being flesh, it is telling us that we are nothing other then human. When the bible tells us that Jesus came in the flesh, it is directly telling us that Jesus is Nothing but human period! In all honesty if your going to say that Jesus' conception was a “natural conception” then God must of had sex with Mary. Natural human conception occurs through intercourse does it not? Hi Jodi, Natural conception comes about through sexual intercourse, correct. However, the way it “came about” was the miracle. It came about through a virgin conception (no sex). The actual conception process remained status quo. How do I know this? Jesus was born with two eyes and so on. He was also holy. How many humans do you know that are BORN HOLY? Our code is set to 100% human, this is true. But flesh and blood is not the only thing that our code takes into consideration when it is tallying up our make-up. In other words, if Jesus were to take a DNA test, certainly it would show that he had flesh and blood. But we are told that the first man came of the earth, and the second from heaven. Heavenly bodies are different from earthly bodies. Here me out on this, and if my thinking is so lost as to miss the prize, please give me reasons why here. 1 Corinthians 15:35-58, in part, emphasis mine All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another…… There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splender of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory…. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who ar of the earth, and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so we shall [in the future] beear the likeness of the man from heaven. My point is: Adam is 100% human man. He is “of” the earth. Jesus is not from the earth, but from heaven. Jesus is not “of” the earth, rather he is “of” God. We will also [in the future] be like him. Herein is the reason he must be the true Son of God – so that we can be like him when we are adopted into the family of God. We will then be “of” God instead “of” the earth.

Yes Jesus was born holy, he was born SET-APART from the rest of mankind through God giving the mind of Jesus the fullness of His Spirit.

I do believe you have misunderstood these scriptures-

I Corinthians 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written,”The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam BECAME a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Reading this very carefully, one should see that the Second Adam represents the Resurrected Jesus. Jesus was born with a physical body and died with a physically body, and was raised with a spiritual body. As we represented the first Adam we will represent the last Adam, the resurrected man, Jesus.

Jesus’ body was physical/earthly (to say it was anything else is to deny Jesus in the flesh), however the mind of Jesus was Spiritual/heavenly, due to the fullness of God’s Spirit working in him.

Our minds must be renewed through the workings of God’s Spirit before our bodies are reborn immortal.

[Not3in1]

Good stuff here, Jodi. Thank you. I'm going to tuck the kids into bed and be back a bit later to read it all through again (a little slower this time). Be back in a bit.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 24 2007,09:34)

WJ; A very well deliberated and executed post.  I would only add that Christ spoke of a relationship with his Father before the foundation of the world and before he was sent down from heaven.  There can be nothing metaphorical about a relationship.  So when Christ was in heaven with his father he could have only been the Son of God.  If he were the Word he would be God himself and contradict his own teaching that he was not God but the Son of God.  I know we have had contentions on this issue in the past, but I still believe that any doctrine that holds that Christ was anything less or more than the Son of God in heaven prior is a denial of Christ Sonship, which he was emphatic about and was identified as such by all who knew him in scripture, even the soldiers who crucified him. Take Care Steven

Hi Steven,

I'm curious, do you attend church? I don't know of any denomination that subscribes to your particular theology (at least not here in WA.)?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:20)

If he was the “root” of David then that means that David came from Christ, by whom and through whom all things were made.

WJ,

Take it one step further……who is the “root” of Christ? That being said, did David come from Christ, or from the Father (who is the “root” and “source” of everything).

As well – Man is the head of women. Christ is the head of man. God is the head of Christ.

God is the root of everything, not Christ.

BTW – thanks for answering my questions earlier. I appreciated your responses. I'll ponder them some more.

[Samuel]

Quote

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Very good…I know we are not really talking about this but this same question could be asked to the people that believe in the “Oneness” theory. If Jesus calls God the Father, how is he his son?

Nonetheless either way you want to look at it Jesus is the “Root” of David…so Jesus is also his offspring…or how ever it is your explaining it, I'm not sure I completely understand it..i'll have to study this. But it looks like it makes some sense. Anyhow, the prophesy was fulfilled is what I was trying to say. We both just said the same thing a different way…but the end result is still the same.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 24 2007,09:34)

WJ; A very well deliberated and executed post.  I would only add that Christ spoke of a relationship with his Father before the foundation of the world and before he was sent down from heaven.  There can be nothing metaphorical about a relationship.  So when Christ was in heaven with his father he could have only been the Son of God.  If he were the Word he would be God himself and contradict his own teaching that he was not God but the Son of God.  I know we have had contentions on this issue in the past, but I still believe that any doctrine that holds that Christ was anything less or more than the Son of God in heaven prior is a denial of Christ Sonship, which he was emphatic about and was identified as such by all who knew him in scripture, even the soldiers who crucified him. Take Care Steven

mr steve

If you want to split hairs over wether he was a son before he came in the flesh, fine, that is your choice.

The main thing is we do agree he existed before he came in the flesh by conception through Mary. Just trying to be politically correct for Mandy here  

Heres the thing, which I have already shared.

There is no scripture before Luke 1:31-35 that says he was a son before he was born a son.

Lk 1:
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Note: the above points out a couple things.

1. He didnt have the name Jesus until he was born

2. The Angel dosnt say he is the son of God but says…

shall be called the Son of the Highest:

The Angel came short of saying he is the son of God before he was born. In fact the Angel says…

that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (not the son of man)

Notice: that Holy thing, which shall be born “then” shall be called the son of God.

You can infer that everytime Jesus mentioned the Father is proof that he was a son before his birth if you want.

But there is no proof of that for Jesus did exist prior to his birth and now refers to the Father as Father after his birth.

And scriptures like John 1:1 and Phil 2:6-8 supports this.

You are implying Jesus was born a son somewhere way back in time and then born again as a man through Mary.

Phil 2:6
Who, being in the form of God (not son of God), thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

He found himself in fashion as a man and humbled himself.

So then you believe he was a Son who came in the flesh.

I believe he was the Word/God who came in the flesh who also became a Son.

I have scriptures to back up my belief and I suppose you believe you have scriptures to back up yours.

[Not3in1]

Hi Jodi,

I'll try to answer the things you've asked of me, however I confess that I'm pretty tired tonight.

Jesus is considered God's Son according to birth because he was conceived by God's holy spirit.  I take this literally, and scripture does not tell us not to take it literally.  Furthermore, it gives no other explaination of Jesus' birth other than it came about by conception.  In other words, your husband conceived (with you) Molly Sue, therefore he is considered the Father of Molly Sue.  Likewise, God's holy spirit conceived (with Mary) Jesus, therefore God is considered the Father of Jesus.  Can anyone prove that God is not the literal Father of Jesus?

Quote

Are these scriptures telling us that Jesus is part God, or that it was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that Mary was found with child?

This sentence is interesting to me because the first part is directly related to the last.  In other words, Jesus is part God BECAUSE through the power of the holy Spirit Mary conceived.  You can't have one without the other.  I believe what is really in question here is whether or not God provided a human sperm OR a sperm that was representative of himself?  Either way it was a miracle.  Why not believe that Jesus is truly the Son of God come in the flesh?

Quote

Luke 3 gives the genealogy of Jesus and what does it tell us? –that Jesus is technically God’s son through being related to Adam! Luke 3:38  the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Adam was seen as being God’s son through God’s creation of him. God begot Adam. Meaning God caused Adam to exist,

Jesus is related to Adam, we all are related to Adam.  However, Adam was brought forth/created; Jesus was conceived and born.  To me, this is a huge divide between the two men.  Some have said that Adam was made from dust and the reason Jesus was conceived was because man was already created, in other words, why reinvent the wheel?  But I believe God could cause stones to be his sons if he wanted to.  God could have brought a man forward that appeared out of nowhere, if he wanted to.  But he didn't want to.  He chose to find a willing virgin and make her the mother of his child.  A child they conceived together.  A child that became a unique son – a true son – a combination of them both.  All other explainations at this point do not make sense to me, I confess.  I'm trying to wrap my mind around these explainations, but they all sound like excuses rather than solid reasons why God would choose to do things differently and out of the normal experience that we all encounter.  Sure, there was the virgin thing, but that was the sign – the miracle.  The rest was the exact same.  So why believe it is so drastically different?  I'm still not sure why Jesus cannot be the (per se) biological Son of God?  Why can't he be?  What would be the harm in it?  What would it change?

As for the geneologies going back to Adam, of course they would.  And of course Adam is considered a son, however Jesus is the only son out of all of them that came from heaven and was “of” God.  Adam came from the dirt – Jesus grew inside of Mary from a true conception.

Quote

God’s Spirit in Jesus had nothing to do with his biology,

I hear you say this and I think to myself, then what was the whole purpose of the virgin conception and birth?  What was the point then?  If it has to do with the renewing of our minds and that is the main thrust of it all, God could have sent anyone.  Yes, Jesus was born in weak flesh – agreed.  Jesus overcame – agreed.  So was he just a really determined, self-disciplined human man that God chose to bestow his Spirit on?  That just doesn't sound right to me (I'm too tired to pinpoint why, but it just sounds wrong).

Quote

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus is the only born Son of God, because he is the only human who received the Spirit without measure. Though Jesus’ body was flesh his mind was of the Spirit of God.

In other words, Jesus was *just a man* who God gave his Spirit without measure?  Is this correct?  Please re-read your quote above, it makes it sound to me that the virgin birth was unnecessary.  In other words, he didn't need to be “born” the Son of God, he could have received this status simply by God giving him his Spirit without measure.  Why the virgin birth then?  I think we are missing a very important step in this line of thinking.

Quote

Ro 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

Jesus was led by the Spirit.  We are led by the Spirit.  So are we a child of God in the same way that Jesus is a child of God?  That is what you are saying, correct?  If this is correct, please tell my why God couldn't have just given us his Spirit instead of having his precious Son be beaten and killed?

Quote

Yes Jesus was born holy, he was born SET-APART from the rest of mankind through God giving the mind of Jesus the fullness of His Spirit.

But God could have given anyone the fullness of his Spirit.  He could have given Moses the fullness of his Spirit.  He could have used Paul or Peter.  Why did he choose to send his only Son through a women via conception?  To me, it sounds like he had a reason for doing this.

Quote

Jesus’ body was physical/earthly (to say it was anything else is to deny Jesus in the flesh), however the mind of Jesus was Spiritual/heavenly, due to the fullness of God’s Spirit working in him.

Quote

47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

According to the scriptures, Jesus' body was not soley of earth/of dust – Adam's was.  It says that the first Adam was from the EARTH.  However, Jesus is from HEAVEN.  Men from dust are like those who are of dust (humans).  Men from heaven are like those who are in heaven (divine).  Jesus was both according t
o scripture; he is the Son of Man and Son of God.  One person, two conditions.  Does this sound familiar to anyone?  A combination of both parents maybe?

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,17:21)

I believe he was the Word/God who came in the flesh who also became a Son.

God changes not.
God is not a man.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 24 2007,16:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,12:20) If he was the “root” of David then that means that David came from Christ, by whom and through whom all things were made. WJ, Take it one step further……who is the “root” of Christ?  That being said, did David come from Christ, or from the Father (who is the “root” and “source” of everything). As well – Man is the head of women.  Christ is the head of man.  God is the head of Christ. God is the root of everything, not Christ. BTW – thanks for answering my questions earlier.  I appreciated your responses.  I'll ponder them some more.

not3

You say…

Quote

Take it one step further……who is the “root” of Christ?

Why go beyond what is written?

Is there a scripture that says God is the root of Christ? You are adding to the scriptures.

If there was then in the same context then the Father would be the “offspring” of Yeshua since by him all things were made and without him was nothing made that was made. Jn 1:3.

You say…

Quote

That being said, did David come from Christ, or from the Father (who is the “root” and “source” of everything).

The scriptures do not say that the Father is the root of David, does it?

In fact my bible says that more than one was involved in the creation.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Only Yeshua was the “Image of God” before man was created in his image after his likeness. So the part that says “our image” and “our likeness” is refering to Yeshua!

You say…

Quote

As well – Man is the head of women.  Christ is the head of man.  God is the head of Christ.

If you read the context of your quote you will see Paul is not talking about nature but rank or position.

If you say that God is greater than Christ in nature because he is his head then you would have to also say the man is more human than the woman because he is her head.

The NLT brings this verse out well…

1 Cor 11:3
But there is one thing I want you to know: A man is responsible to Christ, a woman is responsible to her husband, and Christ is responsible to God.

You say…

Quote

God is the root of everything, not Christ.

Is God the root of all evil?

1 Tim 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Is God the the root of the serpent?

Isa 14:29
Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

I think you mean God is the source of all for all began in him, however I would not count Jesus out…

Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Here we see Jesus is the source of our life and the source of our light is in his life.

Jn 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Here he is the source of the true light that lighteth every man.

Col 1:16 NASB
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Here we see he is the source of the creation, and he is the source that holds all things together.

Heb 1:3 NASB
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Here we see he is the source that upholds all things by the word of his power, and also he is the source of our purification for sins.

1 Cor 8:6 NASB
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Here we see that he is the source by whom are all things and the source of our existance.

He is the way, the truth, the life, the Spirit of adoption, the bread, the Great shephard, our wisdom and on and on. Yeshua is everything to me. I hope he is to you. For if you have the Son you have the “Source” God.

You say…

Quote

BTW – thanks for answering my questions earlier.  I appreciated your responses.  I'll ponder them some more.

You are welcome. I hope I helped. I doubt it though!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 24 2007,17:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,17:21) I believe he was the Word/God who came in the flesh who also became a Son. God changes not. God is not a man.

not3

The “Word/God did not change. Yeshua the “Word” was Spirit.

God is Spirit. The Spirit of Jesus took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man. Not diminishing his nature in Spirit.

Phil 2:6-8

So when your son was born a son he was not human right?

Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus can be both the son of God and God.

[Not3in1]

WJ,
I'm heading to bed but wanted to add a couple things.

Hey, first of all, don't be such a pessimist!  

Quote

You are welcome. I hope I helped. I doubt it though!

You DO help me!  And I do take what you say to heart, brother.  Believe me, I have many notes written down that were taken from various posts made by YOU.  So, thanks again.

Quote

Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Here we see Jesus is the source of our life and the source of our light is in his life.

Note that the word “by” can also mean through.  All things were made through Jesus.  God used Jesus in some fashion to create everything else.  It is this mode or fashion by which God did this that is the debate.

Quote

He is the way, the truth, the life, the Spirit of adoption, the bread, the Great shephard, our wisdom and on and on. Yeshua is everything to me. I hope he is to you. For if you have the Son you have the “Source” God.

Beautiful.  Amen.  Yes, Jesus is everything to me.  There will come a time when Jesus will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all (1 Cor.15:28).  So, I am careful to understand that Jesus is worthy, but that the Father is the One who is deserving of our ultimate praise and worship.

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,18:50)

Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus can be both the son of God and God.

Because my son cannot be his father. They are two seperate people. A “son” by definition, if words mean anything, is to be derived and dependent. Not soley in function/status, but also by nature a son is derived. Still human, because of human parents. But Jesus didn't have two human parents.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 24 2007,18:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 24 2007,18:50) Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus can be both the son of God and God. Because my son cannot be his father.  They are two seperate people.  A “son” by definition, if words mean anything, is to be derived and dependent.  Not soley in function/status, but also by nature a son is derived.  Still human, because of human parents.  But Jesus didn't have two human parents.

not3

I didnt say your son could be his Father. But your son is as human as your Father is he not?

God is a title for a particular type of being. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of God. He is not the Father but he is also God.

Jn 1:1

1 Jn 5:20 NEB
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

[Not3in1]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,03:07)

He is not the Father but he is also God.

I could almost understand it if we just kept it to the fact that because God is a type of being, and he had a Son, that his son would be God too. This makes sense to me. For God could beget after his own “kind.” That is, of course, if he didn't have help from a human women named, Mary!

But because Jesus came to us through Mary, as well as God, I find it hard to believe Jesus is “just” God.

Also, there is only “one” God. And so we come to an unexplainable (even though we use many words) situation whereby we say that this one person who is God, also had another person who is also this SAME GOD. For God is One.

And yet another problem exists when Paul says there is only One God, and he says this God is the Father.

You might be able to see why many are confused on this, including yours truly.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 25 2007,04:03)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 25 2007,03:07) He is not the Father but he is also God. I could almost understand it if we just kept it to the fact that because God is a type of being, and he had a Son, that his son would be God too.  This makes sense to me.  For God could beget after his own “kind.”  That is, of course, if he didn't have help from a human women named, Mary! But because Jesus came to us through Mary, as well as God, I find it hard to believe Jesus is “just” God. Also, there is only “one” God.  And so we come to an unexplainable (even though we use many words) situation whereby we say that this one person who is God, also had another person who is also this SAME GOD.  For God is One. And yet another problem exists when Paul says there is only One God, and he says this God is the Father. You might be able to see why many are confused on this, including yours truly.

not3

What you are not seeing is the spirit of a man is the man.

Man is Spirit who has a soul who lives in a body.

Our bodys are tents that we live in. Our bodys (tents) will one day be changed.

Jesus is Spirit. He was and is the “Word” which is Spirit that was with God. The flesh did not change nor alter nor diminish his Spirit. How could it? That which is flesh is flesh. That which is Spirit is Spirit.

If you die then according to the scriptures you (your Spirit)will go to hades or to be with Jesus, but your flesh will go to the dust until the ressurection.

Jesus flesh died not his eternal Spirit, for he went into hades for 3 days and three nights, but his flesh did not see corruption.

The problem I think, is people see Yeshua and men in one dimension. Flesh. But men are not flesh. They are Spirit/soul that lives in a body. God is Spirit. This is why men are created in his image, not because they are flesh, but because they are Spirit/soul.

Prov 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Pss 103:1
Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, [bless] his holy name.

Lk 1:46
And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Do a study on the Spirit/soul of man. It is interesting.

Man is three dimensional. For the flesh also has a mind, that little thing in our heads we call a brain. To say the least, we are complicated creatures What a mighty creator.

[Not3in1]

Hmmmmmm…….

WJ, very thought provoking post. I re-read a few sentences three times. Um, let me ponder this and see what questions that I may have from this. If you don't mind carrying this on with me for a bit longer, I appreciate it.

Thanks, bro!
Mandy

[Author]

Posts