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Hi RR,
But about none of these does it say
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God”Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,11:38) Hi RR,
But about none of these does it say
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God”Quote Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Holy Spirit would come upon her (the power of YHWH would come upon her) to ensure she conceives when she has relations with Joseph, and YHWH would protect her (overshadow her), for she was to carry a Holy child who would be called (called 2564 – to be called ie to bear a name or title (among men)) the Son of God.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 21 2006,05:19) He is not ‘but a man’ to me – HE IS: the prophet like unto Moses
the seed of Abraham
the rod
the branch
the Lion of the Tribe of Judah
the seed of David
the Son of David
the Root and the Offspring of David
the Holy One of God
the mediator between God and Man
the way, the truth and the life
the Son of God
the King of Israel
the one born ‘when the fullness of time had come'
the man anointed by God (the Messiah)
the man who was YHWH’s representative on earth and spoke on his behalf
the man who lived in completed obedience to God
the man that fulfilled the prophecies of Torah
the man who died for the sins of others
the man who God raised from the dead
the man who currently stands at the side of YHWH
the man who will return to rule as KingHe is ‘the greatest MAN’ that ever lived – and is still living to this day.
Praise YAH
I don't believe that 'any other Jewish man' comes close to the above.
However if we are to believe that Christ as the Logos never existed before being conceived of Mary, then how can you believe all these points.- the seed of Abraham
- the branch
- the seed of David
- the Root and the Offspring of David
- the mediator between God and Man
How can he be a seed if he didn't exist before the fruit?
How can he be the vine, if some branches existed before him?
How can he be the seed of David, if David is older than him?
How can he be the root of David, if he doesn't predate David?
Who was the ONLY mediator between God and Man, pre-2000 years ago?Quote (t8 @ April 20 2006,12:00) However if we are to believe that Christ as the Logos never existed before being conceived of Mary, then how can you believe all these points. - the seed of Abraham
- the branch
- the seed of David
- the Root and the Offspring of David
- the mediator between God and Man
He fullfilled all the prophesies, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.Quote (t8 @ April 20 2006,12:00) How can he be a seed if he didn't exist before the fruit?
How can he be the vine, if some branches existed before him?
How can he be the seed of David, if David is older than him?
How can he be the root of David, if he doesn't predate David?
Who was the ONLY mediator between God and Man, pre-2000 years ago?Quote How can he be a seed if he didn't exist before the fruit?
He is the seed of David. David existed before him. He is the fruit of David.Quote Psalms 132:11-12 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; He will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body. If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I shall teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forevermore. Acts 2:29-30 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up the Messiah to sit on his throne; “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Quote How can he be the vine, if some branches existed before him? Quote John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Yahshua is using symbolism here to speak truth. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm not an actual 'branch' nor is Yahshua an actual 'vine'. But he is my source of life.Quote How can he be the seed of David, if David is older than him?
David would have to be older than him for Yahshua to be his seed.Quote 1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Quote How can he be the root of David, if he doesn't predate David? Quote Revelation 22:16 “I, Yahshua, have sent mine angel to testify to you these things in the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star.” Barnes New Testament Notes
I am the root. Not the root in the sense that David sprang from him, as a tree does from a root, but in the sense that he was the “root-shoot” of David, or that he himself sprang from him, as a sprout starts up from a decayed and fallen tree—as of the oak, the willow, the chesnut, etc. See Barnes on “Isa 11:1”. The meaning then is, not that he was the ancestor of David, or that David sprang from him, but that he was the offspring of David, according to the promise in the Scripture, that the Messiah should be descended from him. No argument then, can be derived from this passage in proof of the pre-existence, or the divinity of Christ.
And the offspring. The descendant; the progeny of David: “the seed of David according to the flesh.” See Barnes on “Ro 1:3”. It is not unusual to employ two words in close connexion to express the same idea with some slight shade of difference.Family New Testament Notes
The root and the offspring of David; these words are commonly interpreted to mean that Christ is the root of David—the ground of his being—in respect to his divine nature; and his offspring in respect to his human nature. Compare #Ps 110:1; Mt 22:42-46; Ac 2:34-36. But a comparison with #Isa 11:1, to which there is a plain reference, leads rather to the idea that Christ is called the root and offspring of David as growing out of his root; that is, as being his true progeny according to the promises of the Old Testament.Quote Who was the ONLY mediator between God and Man, pre-2000 years ago?
I don't understand the relevance of the question.Quote 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 20 2006,11:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,11:38) Hi RR,
But about none of these does it say
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God”Quote Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Holy Spirit would come upon her (the power of YHWH would come upon her) to ensure she conceives when she has relations with Joseph, and YHWH would protect her (overshadow her), for she was to carry a Holy child who would be called (called 2564 – to be called ie to bear a name or title (among men)) the Son of God.
Hi Ramblinrose,
A fanciful rendition.
Why not believe what is written-the Father of the Son of God is the Father?
After all that scripture says
“for this reason the holy child shall be called the Son of God”What other reason can you see than the obvious-though choosing the obvious has never been a strong point for you?
Nick
I understand from posts that you believe Mary to be the biological mother of Yahshua.
Above you have said that you believe that YHWH is his father.
A seed is from a man, not a woman. Genealogies are through the men, not the women. The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?
Hi RR,
We are sons of God who have been reborn in THE Son of God.
Is God our Father as He is the Father of Jesus? Amen.Rom 8.16
“The Spirit Himself bears witness that we are children of God”Sons or adopted sons?
Both.[Rom 8.15,23,.Gal 4.5, Eph 1.5]
Even the Israelites are adopted sons [Rom 9.4]
There is no difference in scripture.
So when Joseph decided to marry Mary, pregnant by the Holy Spirit of God, he became the adopted father of Jesus. He is then called by scripture the father of Jesus [Lk 4.48] so scripture recognises their relationship as father and son.
Nick,
I don't think that you have answered RamblinR's question.
2 Samuel 7 says:
Quote 8 Now therefore, thus shall you say to My servant David, ‘Thus says [YHWH] of hosts: “I took you from the sheepfold, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people, over Israel. 9 And I have been with you wherever you have gone, and have cut off all your enemies from before you, and have made you a great name, like the name of the great men who are on the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously, 11 since the time that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel, and have caused you to rest from all your enemies. Also [YHWH] tells you that He will make you a house.
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.”’”This passage is a parallel prophecy (Hebrews 1:5). It first applies to Solomon but ultimately to Messiah. Note two things in this passage:
1. The promised seed is to “come from David's body”.
2. YHWH adopts David's seed as His very own son.This shows the pattern of what was to come.
The most oft repeated prophecy about Messiah is that he would be of the seed of David. If the Yashua does not fulfill this, he can not be the Messiah according to scripture. You have yet to show how the virgin birth doctrine fulfills this prophecy. Search the first five books of scripture for legalities, but you will find that Yashua has no legal claim to the throne unless he is a direct descendant of David through his father(Numbers 1:18). Adopted sons do not inherit that legal right.
Of course, if you have scriptural proof to say otherwise, I would be interested to see it. Otherwise, you are simply giving us your personal opinion, which isn't quite as authoratative.
Hi WIT,
Welcome back.
A son cannot have two fathers unless one is an adoptive one.I hold on to the strong statement of scripture that the primary claim as Father of Jesus Christ is God Himself.
If that makes Joseph an adoptive father then so be it.
“God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones”
Hi WIT,
The alternative seems to be to say the God is not the father of Jesus Christ[broken scripture],
that the term “Son of God” is only a meaningless label [broken scripture]
and that Mary was not a virgin[broken scripture].Or you can enter the realm of conspiracy theorists and say that what is written is not true.
Such requires more than circumstantial evidence.
Simple is best.
What is written is true even “though every man be proved a liar”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,22:42) Hi WIT,
Welcome back.
A son cannot have two fathers unless one is an adoptive one.Quote 1 Chronicles 28:6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. Solomon was the son of David yet he was also the son of YHWH.
Yahshua was the son of Joseph yet he was also the son of YHWH.
I don't see a problem here.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 20 2006,21:23) Nick I understand from posts that you believe Mary to be the biological mother of Yahshua.
Above you have said that you believe that YHWH is his father.
A seed is from a man, not a woman. Genealogies are through the men, not the women. The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?
How can Yahshua be from the 'seed of David' if Joseph is not his father?Could you please answer this question.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,22:42) Hi WIT,
Welcome back.
A son cannot have two fathers unless one is an adoptive one.I hold on to the strong statement of scripture that the primary claim as Father of Jesus Christ is God Himself.
If that makes Joseph an adoptive father then so be it.
“God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones”
I have no doubt that Almighty YHWH has the power to do anything he wishes yet he has spoken through the prophets regarding the Messiah and the above quote bears no relation to those prophesies.Quote Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.The scriptures they searched were the OT – there was no NT at this time.
Nick wrote:
Quote The alternative seems to be to say the God is not the father of Jesus Christ[broken scripture]… Scripture is not broken here. On the contrary, (as Ramblinrose points out), 1 Chronicles 28:6 shows how YHWH is Yashua's father:
“…I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.”
Solomon is the archetype. Yashua is the ultimate fulfillment.
Scripture is fulfilled.
Nick wrote:
Quote …that the term “Son of God” is only a meaningless label [broken scripture]… Scripture is not broken here either. Again, 1 Chronicles 28:6 shows how Yashua is YHWH's unique son.
Scripture is fulfilled.
Nick wrote:
Quote …and that Mary was not a virgin[broken scripture]. Nor is scripture broken here. Isaiah 7:14 was fulfilled in Isaiah's day through natural conception. (See Isaiah 8:3-4.) A “virgin” conceived. (i.e. One who had never had sexual relations with a man before conceived on the very first act of intercourse – a miracle by all accounts!) The same applies to Messiah's fulfillment of this prophecy.
Scripture is fulfilled.
Nick, you have a lot of interesting opinions, but I still don't see any scriptural proof.
Search the scriptures, Nick. Whose literal son was Messiah prohesied to be? YHWH's or David's? You have been shown mountains of evidence that he had to be David's literal son, “the fruit of his body”. Where is your evidence that he had to YHWH's literal son, and not YHWH's son by adoption?
Romans 1:1-4
Quote Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Hi RR & WIT,
Just a quick question,
How could Jesus have been born without sin if he was born of man?
Or is the “Original Sin” doctrine another of the man made doctrines?
Was Jesus the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who died for the sin of the world in your view, or is salvation by some other way, like obedience to the Law or the Word of Christ?Quote (Artizan007 @ April 22 2006,11:49) Hi RR & WIT, Just a quick question,
How could Jesus have been born without sin if he was born of man?
Or is the “Original Sin” doctrine another of the man made doctrines?
Was Jesus the perfect, spotless Lamb of God who died for the sin of the world in your view, or is salvation by some other way, like obedience to the Law or the Word of Christ?
For answers to the first two questions it would be best for you to read the ‘Are we born with SIN?’ topic.The following links were posted on the first page by myself and you may find them of interest:
Are Men Born Sinner? Introduction
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 1
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 2
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 3
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 4
Yes, Yahshua was the perfect, spotless Lamb of God. He was born sinless and remained sinless as he led a life in full obedience to God. We are also born sinless but we choose to follow our own desires and not live a life in complete obedience to God.
Quote (Woutlaw @ April 17 2006,18:24) A name represents a person, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38? Malcolm, If you're trying to make a connection between Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38 I have a serious disagreement with you. Oneness people do this to try to prove that Jesus is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 is another example of tampering of scripture, along with 1 John 5:7.
There is a lot of documentation on the web that address this issue. But I don't need to use that documentation to prove that Matthew 28:19 has been altered.
In Matthew 28:18, Jesus said,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth .
I believe that all authority has indeed been given to the Son. If the Son has all authority, then why in the world would we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
If the Son has all authority, then to baptize in his name would suffice.
What is in a name?If my father's name was Malcolm Ferris which is also my name, then It would be my Father's name as well as mine. Now if my father were the president of the USA then the name of my father and his son (me) and the president of the USA would be Malcolm Ferris…
That would not make me my Father, nor would it make my father me! If my father was to authorize me to go and speak to a bunch of people on his behalf then I would be going in the name of my father to do so.
So yes you are speaking of authority, representation and expression. A name designates an individual, it can show their lineage, surname, it identifies a particular person of that genealogical line. A name has a meaning normally also. The name Jesus means Jehovah is Savior. The name Christ means Anointed.
Also regarding Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38 – I don't care if the Oneness people try to use these to prove their error, it does not disqualify the verses. Trinitarians use many scriptures also, but we do not need to argue that the scriptures do not belong there.
A correct understanding of how those scriptures apply and what they actually means gives harmony to the entire Word of God. He is well able to protect His Word from human corruption, even as He preserved the scrolls that survived the history of Israel to become the Word of God in common use when Jesus the Messiah arrived on the scene. Jesus did not need to argue the validity of verses, no he merely gave them the correct interpretation.
Heavens and earth shall pass away but the Word of the Lord endures forever.
So I would prefer to address the scriptures that exist and look at their correct interpretation.
In Matthew 28:19 we are told to baptize in the NAME (not names) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Now for a start the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same Spirit – namely God the Father.
Father however is not a name – it is a title. Or office Holy Spirit is not a name – it is a title or office. Son is not a name – it is a title or office.
We also know for a fact that the Father and the Son are not the same person, even if they both have the same name!
So in Acts 2:38 when Peter, (the one to whom Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom) stood up and addressed the people, he did not disobey the words of Jesus in Matt 28:19 – he told them what that ONE NAME is, and this is the same name of which the entire family of God in Heaven and on earth are named.
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