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  • #794761
     dL 
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    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    Obviously it’s the last part you disagree with..so how should it read..?

    #794762
     dL 
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    An explanation of John 17:3

    When Jesus walked the earth we know from Philippians that His path was a downward one – from first existing with God, in the form of God – He laid aside His equality with God, emptying Himself of His divinity to become human/flesh – a being of lower degree than that of angels..and in this state, He who first existed with the Father in glory, came to the world and made His dwelling among us..yet still He bore no earthly title nor was He presented to us in any light of worldly splendor, but took the place of a servant and a slave…you could say, from the highest to the lowest…this was His path..

    He came as the Christ and was the Messiah..yet in His earthly appearance it must be noted that His glory and His divinity, on the whole, was shrouded from humanity, and revealed only in glimpses to a few. We read in many instances where Christ is at pains to keep His identity (even as Messiah) a secret…Matthew 12:16 – “and warned them not to tell others who He was.” Matthew 17:9 – “As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, ‘Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.'” Matthew 16:20 – “Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.”

    This is, if you like, the context of Jesus’ revealed identity while on earth..(and why it was such a revelation to Peter at that time) – His true identity was hidden – He was clothed in complete humility..He bore out His earthly role as Son and servant, while magnifying the Father as the only God..which is right and true – but if this is all you are willing to acknowledge, then you’re left with some big holes in Scripture, that you have to try and adjust – until in the end you have to re-write your own Bible according to your own logical conclusions..

    But, one must ask, Why is the idea (of Jesus as God) so rejected by some, when the Biblical evidence is so plainly evident…? Surely it is nothing but the logical conclusions themselves that are the problem…we cannot comprehend the Godhead with our minds..and so we change the verses that do not fit with our own human perceptions..sort of like creating God in our own image..!

    #794763
     2besee 
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    Jesus came from Heaven, Spirit gives birth to Spirit, Jesus was the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit became one with the perfect flesh of man (The second Adam – The son of man).

    Jesus is in Heaven and is to come. The Holy Spirit was sent and is with us until the end.

    It’s simple stuff when God shows you.

    Knowledge will pass away, love will remain. God is love. That’s simple stuff, well, maybe not.

    I apologize too, I think I may have accidentally emailed that using the wrong reply form!

    #794764
     dL 
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    You suggest that by accepting your understanding of the Trinity I will be purged and move closer toward being without spot or blemish – saying that we move onto greater things, the meat of the word, and we let go of traditions as we get older in the faith. We should be able to discern such things as we get older.. that it is just about understanding God more, and letting go of one tradition among many that we have all inherited in one way or another..

    But I would say in response that, making a lot of progress down a wrong road isn’t really progress at all..you may in your own eyes think that you’re growing in maturity (and that I need to learn these greater things from you), yet I’m reminded of the saying, There is a way that SEEMS right, but the end thereof is the ways of death..

    The Bible says, “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit,” – Human wisdom is really nothing but a cheap counterfeit to the Spirit of truth..

    Sure you may have grown in Bible knowledge, but I see that this knowledge, rather than bringing you closer to God, has actually become for you a spiritual hindrance and a blindness – It is, if you like, the ‘rabbit-hole’ you have made..and that is leading you further and further from the True Light of God’s Living Word…

    #794765
     dL 
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    YOU SAY: “The Word came from God.
    So there was God and the Word in the beginning.
    Before that, there is no beginning.
    He expressed the Word or the Word came from him so that it came forth and was with him.
    This did not lessen the Word in God, but that there was now another next to God at his right side.
    The early Church father’s put it like this:
    From one torch (flame) another torch was lighted, but this did not lessen the first torch (flame). (something like that).”

    So in the light of what you say here (and your understanding of Greek) are you willing to finish the statement yet – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word_________ ?”

    You also say that John 1:1 does not relate to the Trinity seeing the Trinity is 3 not 2…
    Well it actually does relate to the Trinity…but before I show you I need something a little more substantial about your understanding of this verse..you seem to be implying now that the Father created the Word at the beginning of creation..but it’s all quite abstract and obscure compared to John’s very bold assertion..

    #794766
     Oneway 
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    I have been following this debate concerning the doctrine of the Trinity for many years; and this discussion has included most, if not all, of the arguments I have heard over the years. The argument usually seems to not be about a Trinity; but rather about Jesus and usually finds itself centered around just a few verses; but always coming home and settling around John 1:1 where we find in the KJV the words “and the Word was God.”

    Much has been made about the interpretation used by the translators of the King James Authorized Version, and one could well use that as an argument as both the Wycliff translation(1395) and the Coverdale translation(1535) says that “God was that Word”. However; for the sake of this discussion let’s assume that the KJV is the best translation available for at least this verse. From this wording; trinitatians take that the Word being discussed is Jesus. We know from verse 14 of the same chapter in John that thousands of years after the creation of the heavens and the earth that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Since thousands of years after what is being discussed by John in verse 1 that spoken word of God was made flesh; the believers of this doctrine assume John must have been referring to Jesus when he spoke of the Word. Let’s look at the scripture and see if that is the case.

    Let me begin with a totally human discussion that took place between two individuals who were discussing the literary word entitled “The Raven”. As they began their discussion neither could remember who actually wrote “The Raven”, but one suddenly remembered and said “The Raven is Poe”. Neither of them actually believed that the Raven was the embodiment of Poe; but both rightly understood that Poe was the author or creator of “The Raven”. Without being too simplistic; John could easily be saying here that The Father or God was the author or creator of His own word or words.

    I find it interesting to note that as far as I can tell only two verses in the KJV begin with the words “in the beginning”. One of John 1:1 and the other is Genesis 1:1 where we read; “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth”. It goes on over the next little bit to explain just how God made the heaven and the earth and we see the following verses telling of it:

    1:3 “And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.
    1:6 “And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    1:9 “And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let dry land appear.

    We can go on; but one can see plainly that God said, or spoke those things into existence using His Words. We see this acknowledged by Paul in his letter to the Romans in the 4th chapter and the 17th verse where we read in the KJV; “As it is writtne, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as thought they were.” God; with the words which proceeded from Hos mouth called those things which were not as though they were, and they became. God did this. He used His Words and those words were His. There is a lot more to God than His words; but it was through or by His own words that He chose to create the heaven and the earth.

    If we understand how God created things we can now go back to John 1. Every English translation of the bible up until the King James Version treats verse 3 differently. King James; assuming that Jesus is already the Word reads that all things are made by Him. Every other early translation says all things were made by “it”. These early translations are not being derogatory towards Jesus, but are simply acknowledging that the word of God was what He used to create. Further into John in 8:42 we see Jesus himself saying he proceeded forth and came from God. I see significance in the way he said that. God’s words proceeded from His mouth to create. We read in Matthew 4:4; “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” The heaven and the earth were created by the words that proceedeth from the mouth of God. We live by the words which proceed from the mouth of God; and Jesus says he proceeded forth and came from the father. Most of us realize that because of the death of Jesus we were reconciled to the Father and because of that we live through his life (Romans 5:10)
    So the first 4 verses of the book of John call to our memory the creation of the heaven and the earth and remind us it was God; through His own Word, who was the creator. To the mind of John; this first creation was very important for us to remember so we can try to understand the change that was coming. We see this again with his emphasis in his 3rd chapter in recalling how man was first born so man can realize his need for a spiritual birth. In his first chapter John is just being John. John 1 covers a lot of time and the first 5 verses are referring to creation. The next few verses introduce John the Baptist and outlines briefly that fact that his ministry was simply to foretell what and who was to come. And then thousands of years after creation we come to the event told in verse 14. The Word of God-that spoken and creative Word of God was made flesh and dwelt among us. I find great significance in the wording here. Note that unlike what most of us quote and what many modern translations say; this scripture does not say “the word became flesh”. Rather is says “and the Word was made flesh”. If it “became” flesh one might well imagine that it just sort of happened; but the spoken Word of God was “made” flesh. This would suppose that someone or at least something made it become flesh.
    Many are under the belief that Jesus has always been in heaven with the Father and was sent to the earth at the appropriate time to do his thing and then go back to be with his Father; but we do not actually see this explicitly taught anywhere in the scripture. Instead we see the spoken word of God that in John 1:14 is made flesh. Could this “making” the word flesh be the fulfillment of the prophecy given in Psalms 2:7 which reads; “I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” I think it could be but do not have enough scripture to prove it. After this time we called the word made flesh Jesus and began to call the scripture the Word of God; but the scripture itself continues to call him the Word of God. At the end of it all, as Jesus is coming back for the final battle we read in Revelation 19 we see two different names given and most of us consider them both to be Jesus. In Revelation 19:13 we read; “and his name is called the Word of God.” in verse 16 we see; “And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Most of us think that is also his name; but notice verse 13 says HIS name while verse 16 says A name. I see this in the same way I see any soldier going of to war. A soldier wears a uniform that designates who he is a soldier for and also will have a name tag in most cases. Jesus’ name tag say the Word of God and who he represent is the King of Kings.
    To me; combined with all the other scripture in the Bible it seems clear and plain that John is recounting in verse 1 the creation of the heaven and the earth and is simply telling that God created everything by calling those things that are not as though they are. He is not referring to Jesus at all in verse 1. Thousands of years later in verse 14 that same word is made to be flesh.

    #794767
     Admin 
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    Good point Terricca. Its easy to take any other instance of three and try and make it prove that God is also three. But a Binitarian could do the same with two such as Adam and Eve being one flesh. However, they remain two beings. And we know that God is one being. And this is truly important. 

    There is one God the Father. He is the true God and the one who made his son Jesus, both Lord and Christ. 

    #794768
     Admin 
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    How do you explain that God created all things through his son and that he is before all things?

    John 1:3
    “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”

    Colossians 1:16
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 
    16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together…

    #794769
     Admin 
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    Well done on a great post. You clearly state your view and use scripture well to support it. While I may not agree with everything in your post, you state a good case and I always welcome a decent challenge and I hope you do too.

    So let’s dig a bit deeper in scripture and compare it with your view.

    It is written that God made the world through his son and there are many scriptures that teach or infer that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world and that he existed before Abraham. e.g.,

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Also, if Jesus is not the firstborn of/over all creation, then who is?

    Who was the first to be with God?

    Would he not be special?

    Would he not consist of only that which God consists of by reason of being the first?

    Your view doesn’t consider this.

    #794771
     Admin 
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    I have heard this view before. I think one or a few Church father’s may have taught this or at least inferred it.

    I have a question for now. 

    When the Spirit descended on Jesus like a dove, do you hold that it was two halves of him being reunited or what? 

    #794772
     dL 
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    how do you explain something to someone who thinks he already understands..?

    #794773
     Admin 
    Keymaster
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    You refute their current understanding and show the truth of scripture in the hope that they are wise enough to replace it. But that is up to them because they steer their own ship.

    #794774
     2besee 
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    T8,

    I am still in the process of understanding.
    But in answer to your question: The Holy Spirit descending on Jesus at the river Jordan:

    Isaiah 11:1-2
    Then a shoot will come out from the
    stump of Jesse, and a branch from its roots will bear fruit.
    The Ruach Yahweh will rest on him—
    the Ruach of wisdom and understanding,
    the Ruach of advice and power,
    the Ruach of knowledge and fear of
    Yahweh.

    1 Corinthians 15:45-47
    This is what Scripture says: “The first
    man, Adam, became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit (From the Spirit that was in his flesh while on Earth)

    John 23:31-34

    The person who comes from above is
    superior to everyone (The Spirit).
    I, a person from the earth, know nothing but what is on earth, and that’s all I can talk about.
    The person who comes from heaven (The Spirit) is superior to everyone and tells what he has seen and heard.
    Yet, no one accepts what he says.
    I have accepted what that person said, and I have affirmed that God is truthful.
    The man whom God has sent (From the Jordan) speaks God’s message.
    After all, God gives him the Spirit without limit.

    2 Corinthians 3:17
    This Lord is the Spirit.
    Wherever the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom.
    As all of us reflect the Lord’s glory with faces that are not covered with veils, we are being changed into his image with ever-increasing glory. This comes from the Lord, who is the spirit.

    Now I have a question for you to think about.
    Is the Lord here now – has he manifested himself to us?
    Is the Son of Man in Heaven, and still to come?

    Why did Jesus call himself the “Son of God” and the “Son of Man”.
    Divine and Man (flesh)
    What part was divine in Him?
    The Spirit was, yes?
    The Holy Spirit.

    Matthew 12:32
    Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the next.

    #794775
     dL 
    Participant
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    so you attempt to refute the clear testimony of Scripture concerning John’s revelation of Jesus Christ (that He was God), and offer by way of explanation a verse saying the Father is the ONLY God, BUT you fail to show how the verse you quote relates to John 1:1 – you continually refuse to show us what Jesus was if He was not God..!?

    The only thing I recall you saying is that He was some ‘flame’ that got too close to the Original ‘flame’..(?) so does that mean you are saying Jesus existed as some sort of lesser god…yet He was with God and in the ‘form’ of God…but just some sort of…impersonal ‘flame’….(is this what you call ‘the truth of Scripture’…??)

    That sort of ‘wisdom’ is not part of the Scriptures I’m familiar with…

    #794776
     Admin 
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    Your view of John 1:1 negates hundreds of scriptures and even the words of Jesus Christ himself.

    Clearly you are saying that Jesus was wrong when he said that the only true God was the Father and that he was sent by the one true God.

    There is no other way to view this. It is what it is because your teaching is clearly against the words of Jesus.

    Paul warned us to beware of those who would take us away from the simplicity in Christ and instead would draw men unto themselves or to their view of things.

    I am going to have to go with Jesus on this DavidL. You won’t convince me away either.

    #794777
     dL 
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    so because I simply accept the testimony of Scripture when it says, “The Word was God” – you say I have a ‘view’ that negates hundreds of Scriptures and even Jesus Himself..!?

    when really it’s your own ‘view’ created by your own twisted logic that has caused you to change Scripture, and to rely on extra-Biblical knowledge to try and make some ‘narrow’ sense of a God that is completely outside of our senses anyway..!! – making the same logical mistake of trying to squeeze God into a neat understandable ‘box’ – instead of looking to the source of inspiration itself and trusting the revelation that He Himself gives of Himself through His Word..!!

    Yes there are many warnings in Scripture, but the question is – WHO is leading people AWAY from the revealed truth of Scripture.. and into their own understanding..??

    #794778
     dL 
    Participant
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    Genesis declares that *GOD* created the heavens and the earth..
    John declares that when we read the word *GOD* in the first verse of Scripture, we are seeing the Son with the Father – as ONE…!!

    Does this revelation fit with the rest of Scripture..?

    “And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.” – John 17:5

    “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.” – Philippians 2:6,7

    “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.” – John 5:18

    “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” – Colossians 2:9

    “For God in all His fullness was pleased to live in Christ.” – Colossians 1:19

    “I and the Father are one.” – John 10:30

    “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” – John 14:7

    As you can see the confirmation is not contrived, manipulated or extra-Biblical in any way, neither does it depend on logic or intellectual analysis – rather it is the simple yet compelling testimony of Scripture itself that is readily available, and that reaches far beyond these few verses relating to Father and Son.. really, the evidence of the Trinity is found right throughout the whole Bible itself, from cover to cover..!!

    Today there are many who haply call Jesus ‘Lord, Lord,’ – but maybe it is time to make Him center of our lives and worship Him (like Thomas did) as our true God – ONE with the Father..!!!

    #794779
     Admin 
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    You said:
    so because I simply accept the testimony of Scripture when it says, “The Word was God” – you say I have a ‘view’ that negates hundreds of Scriptures and even Jesus Himself..!?

    I say: John 1:1 can be read three ways.

    1) As God/THE Theos himself
    2) A God/god/theos
    3) Qualitatively God/theos

    Logically, you choose the one that fits the rest of scripture and eliminate the options that contradict.

    So if you choose one, then you have a contradiction here for example:
    Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the ONLY true God, AND Jesus Christ whom YOU HAVE SENT”.

    #794783
     Admin 
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    You said:
    when really it’s your own ‘view’ created by your own twisted logic that has caused you to change Scripture, and to rely on extra-Biblical knowledge to try and make some ‘narrow’ sense of a God that is completely outside of our senses anyway..!!

    Now for the irony. You are the one pushing the Trinity Doctrine. I am simply giving you scripture. Look up the word ‘extra-Biblical’ DavidL. I think you will find that scripture is biblical, and the Trinity Doctrine is extra-biblical. :laugh

    #794788
     dL 
    Participant
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    You say that logically, to determine the meaning of Scripture, you choose one of the options that fits the rest of scripture and eliminate the options that contradict..

    But by revealing the way you interpret Scripture, you show where you have gone wrong…your logical deductions are opposed to the way in which the Holy Spirit would reveal truth..!!!

    We must look to the Spirit not to man’s logic…!!

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