Was Jesus begotten or created?

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August 26, 2024 at 1:51 am#946752
Berean
Participant
EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
LIII.(1) Who hath believed our report? . . .—The question has been variously interpreted as coming from the lips of the prophet or of Israel. The former view commends itself most, and the unusual plural is explained by his mentally associating with himself the other prophets, probably his own disciples, who were delivering the same message. The implied answer to the question may be either “None,” or, “Not all.” St. Paul (Romans 10:16) adopts the latter.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom.10:16)
August 27, 2024 at 1:45 am#946753
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean……I agree with what you have posted, Isiah was speaking of all the Prophets, when he made that statement, IMO , Jesus showed his deciles all the Prophets that spoke about him, Isiah was just one of them. Luk 18:33……” then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold , we go to Jerusalem, and “ALL THINGS” (about his death and resurrection) that are written by , “THE PROPHETS”, concerning the Son of man, shall be accomplished”.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
August 27, 2024 at 12:02 pm#946754
DesireTruth
Participant
@Carmel,
Accusing me of not continuing our “conversation” because I “don’t like your format”, I’m “embarrassed”, or am “uncomfortable” with the discussion couldn’t be further from the truth. I have asked you multiple times to change your writing style because fragmented sentences are annoying to following, writing in all caps means your yelling and is rude, to write in paragraph format for easier reading, the constant “I’m superior to everyone” mentality, while obnoxious, I can handle; but paints you as a self absorbed, know-it-all most will avoid. With this understanding, would you continue a conversation with this type of individual?
Also, why do you believe your writing style is “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” and not annoying to me and why do you care so much that our conversation continues?
August 28, 2024 at 2:23 am#946756
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
You quote man’s thoughts and accept that as proof for what you believe?!?!? You make my point and settle my case of christians believing what they are told to believe!
Let’s examine this commentary to see if Isaiah is really referring to himself and the other prophets or “possibly Isaiah’s own disciples” (did you notice the indecisiveness of Ellicott). If the “our” and “we” are referencing Isaiah and the other prophets, it would mean Isaiah and the other prophets wouldn’t look upon him (the Jesus) because he had “no form nor comeliness” nor “beauty” that the prophets “should desire him.” This statement was made about 700 years before the Jesus; when would they have seen the Jesus to “desire” him? And if the prophets “envisioned” him as being the messiah, why would they be rejecting him since they are the one’s prophesying about him?
Continuing on, it would also mean the prophets “hid” there faces from the Jesus. The Jesus bore the grief and carried the sorrows of the prophets (not all of mankind) because the “our” is the prophets according to Ellicott. Yet the prophets “esteemed him (the Jesus) stricken” “smitten of God and afflicted.” Does the “our” being the prophets make any sense to you?!?!?!? Remember these are prophets of God; men chosen by God to deliver HIS message and you believe the “our” and “we” are the prophets speaking about what they did to the Jesus??
To understand chapter 53 one must being reading in 52:13 and then you would see it isn’t the prophets speaking, but the nations speaking of what they have done to Israel.
Did you read any of those passages I gave you concerning “to whom the arm of the Lord has been revealed”?
September 1, 2024 at 3:11 am#946758
Danny Dabbs
Participant
I belong to Jesus Christ and to His Father the LORD!
September 1, 2024 at 7:44 am#946759
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
YOU: in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??
What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?
Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?
ME: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?
How about these passages,
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Scripture tells me that there will be a judgment day, we read in Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Both OT and NT speak of a judgement day, there is a reward of eternal life or a punishment of eternal death given according to each individual person. In that judgement day, “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
Think about it, when God brought curses unto adults who sinned like famine, did that not impact also innocent children? Surely the flood in Genesis, young children drowned as well.
DT, God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
DT, your question, “what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?” is answered in the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead and sat him at His right hand where he is going to return to earth to complete all of God’s will, where God has given all things into his hands. Jesus says, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” Our one true God gives our Messiah the name of Everlasting Father where the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that God called to believe in our Messiah and were given by God to the Messiah. The Messiah has the honor in his return to give them the promised Spirit, which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways. God will be All in All, they will all be of One.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
DT explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?
The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.
September 2, 2024 at 4:23 am#946761
Danny Dabbs
Participant
The holy spirit is not a third person.
It is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ.
So don’t blaspheme the Father the LORD and don’t blaspheme His Son Jesus Christ. Because the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven.

September 2, 2024 at 4:42 am#946762
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?
Me: So you believe in the doctrine of “original sin”; the belief sin entered into the world and our “sin nature” is due to the “fall of Adam.” Please explain Gen 4:7 “If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Here God is telling Cain that “sin desires for you” and the next statement destroys what Paul teaches and by proxy, christianity. God says we are to rule over sin; NOT that we are slave to it, but have dominion over it. Sure, sin can be our “master”; but that’s because we allow it thru our decision making, not because God made it that way.
What was the punishment given to Adam and Eve that has now transcended all generations? You quote verses from Exodus chapter 20 & 34 saying the iniquities of the father would be passed onto their children to the third and fourth generations, did you miss when God said “of those who hate HIM”? Sounds like if the children continue on in their parents footsteps, they will also receive the same punishments as their parents. To claim the punishment of the parent wickedness will pass onto the child even if the child turns from the training of their parents and follows God’s commands is wrong. God even clarifies this twisting of HIS words in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 saying you own your sin and will be punished accordingly, unless you repent and turn from it.

You: God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.
Me: Enlighten me; please explain how I am “misunderstanding” Ezek 18 and the relation to Isa 53.

You: the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.
Me: Again, the word here is “zera” and it applied to the biological procreation of plants, animals, and mankind and NOTHING to do with “believing” in a man and becoming a “seed” of his. This is religion, unless you can provide a passage in the Tanakh that states belief in the Messiah brings salvation.

You: explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?
Me: I’ll ask again, when did God say human sacrifice was good and HE accepted it? Lev 18:21 “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.” Or in Jer 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.” But you’re going to tell me it’s okay for God to do it even though he commanded against it for mankind.

You:The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.
Me: Funny, coming from someone who makes up reasons to support what they believe (i.e. “virgin birth”). I have provided many passages supporting what I have written. I have given a list of passages concerning who the Messiah will be, what he will do, and does the Jesus fulfill any of it; and NONE have countered any of them. Here’s the link again 946290, explain when the Jesus while he was here fulfilled all that was written about the Messiah and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:
“gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”
“ rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”
“will rule at a time of world-wide peace”
“will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).
“will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”
September 2, 2024 at 12:39 pm#946763
DesireTruth
Participant
@Danny,
Can you provide a biblical passage to support that claim?
And why at the end of Matthew does the Jesus say to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; I count three…hmmmm. Actually, there’s only God and no other; HE said so.
Also, if taking God and the Jesus’ name in vain is the “unforgivable sin” because the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ, I imagine most (even those who claim to be “christian”) are condemned to Hell as I haven’t met anyone who hasn’t taken God’s name or the Jesus’ name in vain.
Basically, the only one’s going to heaven are infants and toddlers; but wait, they’re born into and automatically have a sin nature and haven’t “accepted” the Jesus into their hearts, so they’re condemned too.
Who’s going to heaven? Please think about what you wrote and does it make sense.
September 3, 2024 at 12:47 am#946766
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You: his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.
Me: Hasn’t God “called” all of mankind? Ezek 18:32 “I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”
God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?
Since “the best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures”, can you provide me a passage that states the “seed” referenced in Isaiah 53:10 are those whom “God has called”?
September 3, 2024 at 2:32 am#946767
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT…….YOU SAID……God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?
me….You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died ? Scripture say “all” have sinned and came short of the glory of God, ( therefore all have died ). So from that , who has repented, seeing all have died?
Jesus is the “ONLY” human being who never sinned, you can’t find any other human in the history of the human race who has never sinned, and even he died, but not for “his sins” but because of the sins , this evil world did to him.
Jesus was the “only” human who never sinned, he is the one who “demonstrated” to us all, how to have a true right relationship with God the Father, and it’s “exactly” the same as his. All those who “truly” believe in him , will conform to his likeness, through the operation of God’s Holy Spirit, and overcome this world just as he did also. There is “no” other way.
Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death. IMO, THIS IS NOT SAYING Jesus did it all in our place, so we don’t have to do anything, but he did it to “DEMONSTRATE ” to us all, the “WAY” that, we can all attain to the full measure and stature of Jesus Christ , by the exact same Spirit that was in Jesus Christ our lord> the result is eternal life, exactly as Jesus now has.
peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

September 3, 2024 at 4:26 am#946768
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
You: You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died? … Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death.
Me: In the first part you claim a physical death; then at the end you speak of a spiritual death. Why are you playing ignorant?
Why do you believe God is looking for perfection as the liar Paul wants you to believe? God knows you’re going to sin and if you do, HE says to repent, turn from it, and HE’LL remember it no more. I didn’t read anything about believing in a man as a path to forgiveness and salvation. You still haven’t explained why I need the Jesus since God has already given mankind a path to forgiveness and ultimately salvation.
I’m still waiting for you to explain how the Jesus is the messiah when he never fulfilled what was written about who he is to be and what he will do (link 946290) and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:
“gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”
“rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”
“will rule at a time of world-wide peace”
“will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).
“will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”
September 3, 2024 at 6:32 am#946769
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@DT
If you reject Jesus Christ then you are against His Father the LORD as well. Repent!
September 3, 2024 at 7:31 am#946770
Berean
Participant
@ DT and all
In the Old Testament, the thought that the iniquity of the assembly of Israel was borne by the priests was not foreign…
when we read
Lev.10:17
[17] Why have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place? it is most holy: and God hath given it unto you, to bear the iniquity of the assembly, to make atonement for them before the LORD.
To become more familiar with the subject
go to this link below
https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/12119.221#221
God bless
September 3, 2024 at 11:02 am#946771
DesireTruth
Participant
@Danny,
Yawn, I don’t need the Jesus according to God; are you not reading and verifying what I am writing? I keep being told I need to “repent”; but no one can tell me what to repent of. I reject the Jesus because he IS NOT the messiah prophesied in the Tanakh. Prove me wrong!! I have given passages speaking of who the true Messiah will be and what he’ll do and none have countered it.
VERIFY, VERIFY, VERIFY EVERYTHING!!!!! Make sure what you are being told is “truth”; does it align with the Tanakh. Read what I recently wrote to Jodi and Gene and prove me wrong! I know you won’t, because you aren’t strong enough in what you believe. You have a weak foundation in your faith and repeat what you have been told to repeat.
You couldn’t respond to me asking you for a passage concerning the “unforgivable sin” by using God’s and the Jesus’ name in vain. Here’s a hint, there isn’t one because a man made it up and you latched onto as truth because it sounded good.
September 3, 2024 at 12:24 pm#946772
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Your point? And does this have to do with the “our” in Isa 53 being the prophets?
September 3, 2024 at 7:01 pm#946773
Berean
Participant
@DT
My last post is related to Isaiah 53.
And I have nothing more to say about “our”
September 4, 2024 at 1:59 am#946774
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
In what respect does the Leviticus 10:17 passage have anything to do with Isa 53? To say it relates with no explanation says nothing! How am I to know what you’re talking about when you never explain anything?
Then refusing to answer who the “our” is only further proves how entrenched in religion and doctrines you are and how they take precedence over God, making HIM secondary. The real reason you “have nothing else to say” is you have no idea who the “our” is and are once again running away. How sad!
September 4, 2024 at 2:16 am#946775
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT……So you believe a person can be save, by himself, remember it says…..”the soul that sins, it shall die.”, So when does this soul stop sinning? Have you reached that goal yet?
Fact is, you or no human being has completely stop sinning, we all “still” come short of that goal, why? Because in order for us to completely stop sinning, something must be added to our existence.
Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what that something is, God by his “Holy Spirit” must come to dwell in us all, or we can never stop sinning, and until that “fully” takes place no human will ever stop sinning . Jesus “demonstrated ” , the “WAY” we must be all truly be saved, and it’s not by our own human efforts, but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit abiding “IN” US. That is what will cause us to overcome this world and its sins. There is no other way, and Jesus “demonstrated” that fact to us all.
But your self saving point is dealt with in scripture, “notice” What happens in the “millennial ” reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints. Evil is removed from the earth and all the world is taught God’s ways for a thousand years. But what happens at the end of those perfect world wide ruling days, when evil is reintroduced back into the world? Notice they all fall away and turn against Jesus and the Saints , why? Because they (the people of this world) never were converted, even though they were instructed for a thousand years in the way of God, but as soon as evil was released on this earth again, they all fell away. Why?
God is proving by the millennial reign a simple, but very important point, that no human being can “maintain” true righteousness on their own, even if his teaching and environment is perfect, he or she will always fell in the end, just as the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints shows clearly. that “true righteousness” must be “maintained” in a person by the “holy spirit” of God. The only ones who had the Spirit of God “in” them was Jesus Christ and the Saints who were ruling with him and when evil was released back on the earth , they were the only ones who did not fall away.
DT…. You may think you can save yourself by you own self choices, but you will ultimately fail, the “ONLY” way to true righteousness, is through the power of God, exactly as Jesus “DEMONSTRATED ” , to us all.
peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

September 4, 2024 at 5:40 am#946776
Berean
Participant
@ DT
In what respect does the Leviticus 10:17 passage have anything to do with Isa 53? To say it relates with no explanation says nothing! How am I to know what you’re talking about when you never explain anything?
Me
If you REALLY want to KNOW the truth it’s up to you to seek it out.
I gave a link to read.
Give yourself time to at least read it.
For the “our” I already answered that, don’t let it be understood that it hasn’t been done.
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