Was Jesus begotten or created?

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August 9, 2024 at 2:22 pm#946718
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
Have you noticed you haven’t answered whether or not you nailed the Jesus to the cross? Apparently it is a difficult question to answer.
Did you notice you have deflected to another topic? I can only surmise this tactic is being used to push the conversation away from what you refuse to answer. Which I will not be baited into and will pull it back to my original question. Did you put the Jesus on the cross; can you give me a “yes” or “no” to this question or are you ashamed of what you believe?
August 9, 2024 at 2:23 pm#946719
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
The chief priests, the elders and the high priest plotted and demanded that Jesus be arrested and put to death, but it was the Romans that did the actually deed.
However, Jesus could have saved himself, but he obeyed God who demanded he go to the cross and die.
So far we have some Jews, some Romans, God and Jesus himself all responsible in one way or another.
Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.
DT, who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?
August 9, 2024 at 4:48 pm#946720
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You still have not said you personally nailed the Jesus to the cross…fascinating! Let your yes be yes and your no be no!
August 9, 2024 at 11:44 pm#946721
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
No I did not personally nail Jesus to the cross.
That isn’t even possible.
Who does the “our” represent and who is the “righteous servant” in Isaiah 53?
August 10, 2024 at 12:39 am#946722
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You know that isn’t what I was asking; did your “personal sin” nail the Jesus to the cross? Why do you refuse to answer this question?
August 10, 2024 at 2:33 am#946723
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT…..yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified. If there had been no sin in the world then Jesus would not had to die , to demonstrate to all human kind that we can live without sin in our lives. HE “DEMONSTRATED” , to all mankind what is required of us all, in order to live a sinless life, He was the “first” human being to actually live a sinless life. We must all grow until we all come to the “EXACT” FULL MEASURE AND STATURE OF Jesus Christ, by the exact same way he overcame the world we must also overcome it.
Jesus did not payoff anyone’s sin debt, God forgives us based on our identity TO THE “WAY” we live, with the Holy Spirit of God guiding our live, exactly as it did Jesus the Christ, Jesus demonstrated to us all the only “WAY” to eternal life, and it is the “EXACT” same way he lived, by “FAITH” in the LIVING GOD. the exact same Faith he had.
Therefore he said, “whosoever overcomes the world “EVEN” as I have ” , I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom” , “EVEN”, as I have overcome, and am sit down in my fathers kingdom. Notice the words, “EVEN”, as I have”.
We are all called to “repent” , And conform. to the “WAY” JESUS LIVED, in “FAITH” and obedience, to God the Father> Jesus’ life and death, was “NECESSARY” in-order to “DEMONSTRATE”, TO US ALL, how a human being can be forgiven and accepted by God the Father, we must “ALL” , conform to the “EXACT”, “IMAGE” OF JESUS CHRIST, the true ‘MESSIAH’ of God.
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

August 12, 2024 at 3:10 am#946724
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
You: yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified.
Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?
If our sins are what put the Jesus on the cross, his death was for our sins or as you say “because of” or sins. Either prepositions fails because if the Jesus died “for” the purpose of our sins, it would mean he was a human sacrifice and God said that’s a no-no. If the Jesus died “because of” our sins, that means a innocent man took on the guilt of the wicked and God said that’s a no-no. So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.
Read Ezek 18:19-32 and what did God say about wickedness, repentance, and obedience. Still waiting for how the Jesus can be the Messiah when he never fulfilled anything spoken about who and what he is to be.
August 13, 2024 at 2:50 am#946725
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT, you said…….”Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?”
Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head? I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>, he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right relationship with God the Father.
HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.
Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he” lives) for my sake, will save it.
DT, go figure that out and the fog in you Brain might start to clear up.
Peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene
August 13, 2024 at 8:24 am#946727
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Apparently what I wrote went over your head. God said the wicked are responsible for their wickedness; which we agree upon. HOWEVER, you have yet to explain the purpose of the Jesus’ death and what it accomplished. If sin put the Jesus on the cross, his death had to do something otherwise it was for nothing.
You obviously DIDN’T read the Ezek passage because you are still stuck on the Jesus.
What you wrote is a smorgasbord of “what the what”!! “Faith and Obedience” will make you “at one” with God; AND this is “atonement”?!?!!? What is this religion you follow???? With all due respect, you’re starting to sound like Carmel with these coo-coo for coco puffs responses.
August 16, 2024 at 1:18 pm#946728
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head? I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>, he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right relationship with God the Father.
HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.
Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he” lives) for my sake, will save it.
DT……Nothing coo-coo about it, for those who “love the truth”. If you reject Jesus and the words he spoke to us, you also reject the one (GOD) who sent him. DT , you remind me of Kora, who had the same attitude against Moses , as you have against Jesus, how did that end for him?.
peace and love to you and yours DT……gene

August 17, 2024 at 3:54 am#946730
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Once again you’ve avoided answering what the purpose of the Jesus’ death served? God says no one can be punished/be responsible for others wickedness as the sin belongs to the offender; yet, you claim the wickedness of mankind put the Jesus on the cross. Explain what his death did for mankind and continuing to point out how the Jesus lived doesn’t explain the reason for his death.
August 17, 2024 at 7:35 am#946731
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Have you read have Ezek 18:19-32 yet? If not, why not? God is speaking to his creation, HE desires that all turn from their wickedness, follow HIS statutes, and return to HIM. Nothing in this passage speaks of a man one must believe in to come before our creator, the lie of christianity. You are not “filthy rags” before our Heavenly Father and need a “mediator” as Paul says; HE created you and are therefore loved by HIM.
Do you love your own children less when they do wrong?
August 21, 2024 at 2:40 am#946742
Jodi
Participant
DT,
who is responsible for Jesus going to the cross?
“Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.”
Who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?
Thank you
August 21, 2024 at 3:00 am#946743
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
YOU: So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.
ME: Absolutely aligns, there is one to whom the LORD makes his soul an offering for sin.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…11…shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

August 22, 2024 at 4:34 am#946745
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
We WILL get to Isaiah 53, but in a new thread as time permits; so patience is required.
Christendom believes it was sin that put the Jesus to death; which means the “sinless, guiltless, and innocent” Jesus took on the wickedness of the guilty and was put to death for the guilty. However in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??
What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?
Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?
August 23, 2024 at 6:34 pm#946747
Berean
Participant
But he was wounded for our transgressions👈, he was bruised 👉for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
WHO ELSE BUT JESUS COULD HAVE FULFILLED THIS PROPHECY???
August 24, 2024 at 12:47 am#946748
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Who’s the “our”? It’s the same “our” who begins speaking in verse one about a “report” no one will believe.
What does chapter 52 say, the chapter that leads into 53 and puts what is written into context (specifically the last three verses)? Do you know what chapter 54 says?
I’ll ask again, can you start in the middle of a novel and know what happening before the point you began reading? Obviously you couldn’t know; so why do christians do it with their “inspired word of God” and claim to know what God is trying to tell them when they aren’t reading passages in the context they have been written?
Think about it…
August 24, 2024 at 5:57 am#946749
Berean
Participant
Who hath believed our report?
Prophetically, Isaiah anticipates at least two things here. First, he anticipates how strange and contradictory it seems that this suffering Messiah, whose face is marred more than any man, is at the same time salvation and cleansing to the nations. Second, he anticipates the rejection of the Messiah, that many would not believe our report.
To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
In this context of the Messiah’s suffering and agony, this line seems out of place. The arm of the LORD is a picture of His strength, power, and might. Yet we will see a Messiah weak and suffering. But the strength, power, and might of God will be expressed in the midst of this suffering, seemingly weak Messiah.

John 12 [38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Rom.10 16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
August 25, 2024 at 12:32 pm#946750
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Nowhere in anything you wrote did you say who the “our” is; our is a plural pronoun and would signify multiple people who are owning what they did to the “servant.” Who does the voice represent/speaking in verses 1-9?
I do appreciate the response, but can you support with the Tanakh what you are claiming Isaiah is “anticipating”?
Next you speak on the “arm of the Lord”; the passage speaks in a past tense not a future “To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed”? This speaker is looking to the past and this “revealing” has already happened, and therefore cannot be a future event. Take a look at Ex 6:6, Deut 4:34, Deut 7:19, Deut 26:8, Ps 44:3, Ps 77:15, Ps 98:1, Isa 30:30, Isa 33:2; after reading these passages to whom has the “arm of the Lord” been revealed?
August 25, 2024 at 8:08 pm#946751
carmel
Participant
@Carmel,
You: Didn’t read a word since you don’t know how to write in paragraph format…
ME: DESIRETRUTH????
This is the biggest lie I’ve ever read in these forums!
AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
You: either learn how to properly communicate in the written format, and I will respond OR don’t, and I won’t. It’s that simple!
Do you want me to believe that you don’t want to respond because of my writing format?
YOU MUST BE JOKING!
Let’s analyze things FROM OUR PREVIOUS POSTS.
I start with My previous post to the last. It was more than double the size of the last, crammed with capitals, and according to you; YELLING, POOR WRITING ETIQUETTE, AND IS EXTREMELY RUDE!!!
How come, though you did reply, you never said anything CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT???
HMMMMMM!!!
Now let’s VERIFY and go back to square one!
Page 1182 is the page where and when you introduced yourself to these forums eighteen months ago! On that particular page, I posted
EIGHT LONG POSTS in the same WRITING FORMAT etc, etc, etc, of which the last one was the first reply I posted directly to you.
AGAIN NOT A MERE HINT WAS MENTIONED IN YOUR VERY FIRST RESPONSE, #942393, CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!
HMMMMMM!!!
Now to page 1184 Post #942418
You: @ Carmel,
For curiosity’s sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?
Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give. For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces. I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.
The above is your first post sent directly to me eighteen months ago!
By the way, just to mention, we are very, very similar regarding our earnings, THE OPPOSITE OF OUR BELIEF, as apart from that I do almost all what you do; I am precisely also a self-employed/general carpenter.
Now, before your introduction to these forums, you did see my writing format, and presumably, as you mentioned, for the sake of familiarity with all of us and our belief, you also did read some of my posts as you also did see and read others’, the fact that you said so above and became curious about me! May I ask you; is it by any chance because my writing WAS NOT IN PARAGRAPH FORMAT, hence, so prominent that you became curious about me, or because of THE CONTENT OF MY POSTS?
NEVERTHELESS, AGAIN, YOU DIDN’T MENTION A MERE HINT REGARDING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!
WHY DIDN’T YOU IF MY WRITING FORMAT WAS SO EMBARRASSING FOR YOU? WHY IT DID TAKE YOU EIGHTEEN MONTHS TO AFFIRM SUCH A DRASTIC DECISION?
AFTER ALL YOUR TRUE AND VITAL INTEREST IS YOUR DESIRE FOR TRUTH! NO?
IS IT TRUE, THEN, THAT MY WRITING FORMAT IS THE ONLY OBSTACLE THAT MAKES IT SO UNCOMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO READ JUST THIS PARTICULAR POST ONLY, AND THAT YOU BECOME EXTREMELY UPSET AND MOST IMPORTANTLY NOT READY TO RESPOND ANYMORE UNLESS I REFORM ACCORDING TO YOUR WISH?
MR. DT. In this case, GIVEN ALL THAT I MADE CLEAR TO YOU ABOVE, THE WAY I SEE IT, you are too confronted with THE CONTENT OF THE POST, MORE THAN THE WRITING FORMAT. On the other hand, I agree, thanks to the unrestricted HTML content, and ESPECIALLY, the way I intentionally produced and presented it to you in that manner, is so emphatic, expressive, and impactful. Thus, psychologically in general, apart from that it did hit you so strongly more than expected, FOR SURE NOT JUST DUE TO THIS POST ONLY, it did also finally leave an impact on your behaviour as it revealed YOUR DISREGARD AND REJECTING OF THE SPIRITUAL CONCEPT AND ASPECT OF THE OT SCRIPTURE, most vital CONCERNING GOD’S SPIRITUAL HIDDEN TASK OF REDEMPTION, well pronounced by Augustine hereunder:
“The new is in the old concealed; old is in the new revealed.”
God all-knowing, from the beginning of this particular world subject to death! Genesis 1:2
The fact that PHYSICALLY, THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD OF THE OT, SATANIC FROM EVE’S SIN is OBSOLETE!
THE FACT THAT THE EGYPTIANS, SATAN, AND HIS DEMONS ON EARTH, AFTER THE JEWS, THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, OF THE OT. WERE REDEEMED BY MOSES, BECAME ALSO OBSOLETE!
CONSEQUENTLY, CHRISTIANS, THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD IN CHRIST, THROUGH JESUS’ FLESH AND BLOOD,
THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN!
GODMAN ON EARTH!
ACQUIRED ETERNAL LIFE!
BACK TO OUR ARGUMENT, generally, my post disturbed your mind so badly, to the extent, that you took advantage of the written format, used it as a scapegoat, and not only rejected the content of the post in general BUT ALSO OPTED NOT TO RESPOND ANYMORE TO MY POSTS, PARTICULARLY AND INTENTIONALLY ANY PART OF THIS POST!!!
MR. DT, THE CONTENT of this particular post, FOR SURE NOT YOUR FAMILIARITY, THE FACT THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THAT KIND OF FORMAT WERE TOO MUCH FOR YOU TO CONTRADICT AND IT SIMPLY BECAME THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR YOU. Frustrated and demoralized not capable enough to focus on the content, you opted to focus instead, both on me and on my writing format.
AS SIMPLE AS THAT!
LET’S REFER AGAIN TO YOUR LAST TWO COMMENTS:
THAT IN THE NEXT POST, WHETHER YOU REPLY OR NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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Jesus is the Word of God

Definition of ‘Created’

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Conclusion

This is the biggest lie I’ve ever read in these forums!

YOU MUST BE JOKING!

“The new is in the old concealed; old is in the new revealed.”

THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

GODMAN ON EARTH!

ACQUIRED ETERNAL LIFE!

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Was Jesus begotten or created?

Jesus is the Word of God

Definition of ‘Created’

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Conclusion

This is the biggest lie I’ve ever read in these forums!

YOU MUST BE JOKING!

“The new is in the old concealed; old is in the new revealed.”

THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

GODMAN ON EARTH!

ACQUIRED ETERNAL LIFE!

Recent Replies

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