Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 1,286

Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • June 19, 2024 at 9:45 pm#946546
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In the past there were things that took place as a shadow of things to come.

    Then the messiah came to fulfil many things spoken of and ritualised.

    Now we live in a time when we see the fulfilment and it is up to us to accept or reject these things.

    June 19, 2024 at 11:57 pm#946547
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    You: the messiah came to fulfil many things spoken of and ritualised.

    Me: I have asked over and over again if Jesus accomplished what the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do when he comes, and even provided references from the Tanakh asking if Jesus accomplished what was said. None have provided an answer.

    You: Now we live in a time when we see the fulfilment and it is up to us to accept or reject these things.

    Me: You have made an unverifiable, blanket statement; since we “live in a time” please provide examples and sources of what the Jesus has/is fulfilling and has/is accomplishing today that I must “accept or reject”?

    June 20, 2024 at 2:07 am#946548
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Jesus himself said, there would be a future event when he would come in great honor and glory, when he would establish the Kingdom of God on this earth,  That time is soon to take place, Then what will you say, when he tells you ….“I have clearly said……”I am, the root and “offspring” of David”.  Will you deny those words in that day?

    I would like to see what will be your,  “arrogant ” response to him in that day.

    You have drawn your own conclusions , you have reject Jesus Christ as  the Messiah, you reject the New Testament teachings, you reject what  the Apostles  say, and epically what  the apostle Paul has said.
    You accuse us of not answering your questions , when in fact we have many times here, but what you really are saying is, that we have not answered your questions according to your new belief system, which goes against hundreds of scriptures we have all ready presented.  The burden of proof is on you not us, why because you simply take out all the scriptures that disagree with your interpretations, which includes nearly all the New Testament and much of the Old also. You simply are writing your own interpretations and forming your own conclusions, based on your New found understandings, which is exactly as the Jew’s, who reject Jesus Christ , now and then,  when they had him crucified.

    If you were back in the Day of Jesus, would you be one of them who were yelling, “let his blood be on our head, and the head of our children . And so it was, as history has proven, now what do you think will happen to those who taken their side at his return DT?.

    As I have said before to you, “you have thrown out the Baby with the wash”.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………..gene

     

     

    June 20, 2024 at 6:35 pm#946549
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    How can the Jesus be the “root and offspring of David” when he was born of the spirit? You do understand what the “seed” of someone is…right?? I have no issue in “denying” this claim as I understand the difference between being the “seed” of someone and “conceived of the spirit”…do you?

    You: You have drawn your own conclusions , you have reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah, you reject the New Testament teachings, you reject what the Apostles say, and epically what the apostle Paul has said.

    Me: My “conclusions” are based on what is written in the Tanakh, the Jesus ISN’T the Messiah as he never fulfilled what was written of the Messiah in the Tanakh, I reject the NT “teachings” because they don’t align with what God said in the Tanakh, the apostles said a lot of good stuff to live by and actually focused on following God’s commands, and Paul is just a liar, deceiver, and isn’t even an apostle according to Act 1:21-26.

    You: You accuse us of not answering your questions

    Me: When you don’t answer questions, it’s not an accusation; it’s a fact! You don’t answer my questions; for me to “accept” your answer, you have to actually answer the question; instead you use a deflection technique and move the goal post off the topic of discussion to something else you’re more “comfortable” with. You still haven’t answered who is speaking where in Isa 53, you still haven’t answered my Jesus lineage question, still haven’t answered how the Jesus stumped the Pharisees by quoting Ps 110:1 after proving the Psalm was written about David and not by David, no answer on Isa 7:14 being a prophecy of the birth of the Jesus when the prophecy was given to King Ahaz, still waiting for where/when God said the Messiah was to die for the “purpose of” and/or “because of” the sins of the world and to be this propitiation on behalf of mankind to appease HIS wrath against mankind, I gave you a list of what the true Messiah was to do when he arrives along with passages to support and your response was he was going to do all that when he returns which creates some major contradiction issues, you still haven’t commented on what Noahide is, you asked how Israel is “marred” more than anyone else and I explained how they are still persecuted today and no response, still haven’t told me what makes the Jesus the messiah, still haven’t answered how the Jesus will get it right the second time, still haven’t explained why God would require a “representative” that comes to HIM on your behalf when you don’t require it of your children, why do I have to “accept” the man Jesus or why one must go through a man to get to God, still haven’t explained why the NT is called the “word of God” when every denomination has their own interpretation of it – shouldn’t it all be the same understanding? These are the questions I can think of that are still waiting to be answered by YOU! This doesn’t include Jodi, Danny, Carmel, Nick, T3, or Proclaimer; these are the questions YOU have refused to answer. So I can accuse YOU of not answering my questions!

    Concerning “burden of proof”, I have already given the proofs to you; but you reject it in favor of your religion. What you need to do is verify what I have said, but you won’t out of fear. Thus you will remain in your religious rut.

    You: you simply take out all the scriptures that disagree with your interpretations…

    Me: What scriptures have I removed that I don’t agree with? All I have said, if the NT doesn’t align with the Tanakh, the NT is false. Can the Tanakh be false and the NT be true? Hmmm!

    You: …which includes nearly all the New Testament and much of the Old also.

    Me: The ignorance of this statement is profound; I reject the validity of the NT because it DOES NOT align with the Tanakh; I reject the validity of the NT because there are lies within its pages, I reject the validity of the NT because it twists the Tanakh – the actual words of God. To say I reject the Tanakh, makes you a fool! Everything I have been speaking on is based IN the Tanakh; it is YOU who have rejected God words!

    You: If you were back in the Day of Jesus

    Me: I don’t live in a world of “if”; I live in a world of reality. To use this kind of scenario is an act of desperation because it projects an unverifiable situation since I wasn’t there. However, I could safely conclude I wouldn’t have been there since I’m not Jewish and would have had zero skin in the game of wanting a Jew killed.

    June 22, 2024 at 1:18 am#946551
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….Being “born”  of Spirit,  is not saying “you are a Spirit” , it simply mean the Spirit is what generates you to life, we are all born by Spirit, all creation is Spiritually activated.  But Jesus plainly said “he was not a Spirit”.  “After his resurrection from the dead in-fact”.  But that doesn’t do you any good,  because you have rejected the New Testament, in you new found religion, right?

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

     

    June 22, 2024 at 4:11 am#946552
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Matt 1:18 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.”

    Luke 1: “34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

    These are the words copied and pasted directly from your KJ translation. Are you NOT reading what I’m reading?!?!? First account, Mary was “found with child of the Holy Spirit” does this not mean she became pregnant by the holy spirit? Second account, Mary tells the angel she’s never been with a man; angel replies the holy spirit will come upon her and then she’ll get pregnant. Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and not a man. Again, how can the Jesus be the messiah when his daddy isn’t of the line of David and Solomon as God promised David? Mary even says she’s never been with a man in order to become pregnant and we are told Joseph “didn’t know her” until after the Jesus was born; so who is the Jesus’ daddy? We have an “immaculate conception” where Mary becomes pregnant by the spirit and NOT from the seed of a man, specifically one who is of the line of David and Solomon, and fails this simple requirement of being the the true Messiah.

     

    You: Being “born” of Spirit, is not saying “you are a Spirit” , it simply mean the Spirit is what generates you to life, we are all born by Spirit, all creation is Spiritually activated. But Jesus plainly said “he was not a Spirit”. “After his resurrection from the dead in-fact”.

    Me: Has nothing to do with who Jesus’ daddy is; Jesus’ birth was physical and you’re talking spiritual…irrelevant.

    You: But that doesn’t do you any good, because you have rejected the New Testament, in you new found religion, right?

    Me: But you accept the NT even after pointing out the inconsistencies within; the NT isn’t “inspired” of God, it’s “inspired” by man. When people fight over the meaning of a passage how can it be from God?

    When are you going to look into Noahide? It predates christianity by about 2700 years…nothing new about it.

    June 23, 2024 at 12:59 am#946553
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…..Yes there are variants in both the new testaments and the Old testaments, but that has to do with translation from one language to another.  But that does not mean you should throw out the entire texts, to fit your own conclusions.  I have shown you where Daniel predicted the birth date of the Messiah Jesus, and you reject it, no matter how many scholars say it does establish the date of his birth, and I showed you where even the Jew’s of Christ day knew when he was to be born; but it makes no difference with you, still go forward in denial, we have shown you where Jesus did fulfill what was written of him in Isiah , and again you refuse to see it. Claiming we haven’t answered your questions, we have shown you that when Jesus returns he will complete the rest of what has been written about him, but you still refuse to believe us. You also use the New Testament writing to try to justify your standings, by drawing false conclusions, as you do the Old Testament also, you have become  a true “smoke and mirrors”,  ‘’ preacher”,  and have “denied the Faith “.  It’s your life, so believe as you will, and I will believe as I believe , we will see who comes out ahead in the end, won’t we?

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene 

     

    June 25, 2024 at 3:01 am#946558
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Variants I have no issue with; changing what is said, I have an issue with. Twisting and misusing what is said, I have an issue with. I have given examples of all this corruption in your NT, and you still accept the lies as truth and chastise me saying I shouldn’t “throw out the entire text” but should accept both the truths and lies within the text. I will argue, if there is one lie within the writing of the NT can it be the true Word of God? Since God cannot lie and there are lies and deception within the pages of the NT, it’s not from God and I WILL “throw out the entire text.” I have proven the first chapter of the book of Hebrews is corrupt, yet you accept it as truth even though it’s filled with lies; because the first chapter is corrupt, I WILL “throw out the entire text.”

    You are still avoiding an explanation of how Isa 7:14 is a prophecy pointing to the Jesus, when it’s clearly speaking of a sign for King Ahaz. The writer of Matthew makes the claim it’s the fulfillment of the words spoken by Isaiah and is pointing to the birth of the Jesus; explain this discrepancy. This isn’t a “variant”, this is flat out corruption of God words.

    You believe the interpretations of scholars and reject the understanding of the people God spoke to. That’s stunning! You keep droning on about Daniel 9; yet, you can’t explain it. However, because you were told the “anointed one” spoken of, the KJV changed the test to read “The Messiah”, and removed punctuation to change the context, you believe it. You didn’t study this yourself and compare the Hebrew to the translated text; you took your translated text and said it was truth without verifying.

    You end with a childish statement of “we’ll see who’s right in the end.” If what I am saying is wrong, why are you having a difficult time answering my questions? This only confirms you have no idea why you believe what you believe and are peddling a religious idea. My questions should be easily answered and backed up with God’s word, if christianity were truth.

    I provided you with references of who the true Messiah was to be and what he is to do when he arrives and the best you come up with is Jesus will accomplish it when he returns. Jesus isn’t bringing peace to the world, he’s coming to judge it and not one word is mentioned in the NT about the Jesus bringing the Israelite’s back from exile.

    One verse you must explain is Hosea 3:4-5 For the children of Israel shall sit solitary many days without king, and without prince, and without sacrifice, and without pillar, and without ephod or teraphim; 5 afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek HaShem their G-d, and David their king; and shall come trembling unto HaShem and to His goodness in the end of days.

    Many days without a king and sacrifice and after this time Israel will return to God and it will be at the end. What does christianity teach? Not this!

    Or explain Micah chapter 4; how is it that God’s temple will be re-established and all people will stream to it? Did read anything about only those who “believe” in the Jesus.

    Why won’t you verify and study on your own, what are you afraid of; your religion being wrong?

    June 26, 2024 at 2:30 am#946559
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DESIRE TRUTH?…..YOUR desire is “your” truth, yours, and thats the problem.  I see both new and old testaments  as  mostly all comparable with each other if seen in the right context,  you on the other hand,  see opposites and total contradictions.  While I would grant you that there some differences in word translations,  I have proven that even many time here, but the general texts, old and new,  both agree with each other.

    I don’t simply start taking out whole books, and whole bibles to try to make it fit “my own views” .  Any one can see your not about correcting a point, but about trashing everything except what you think is expectable, Hardly an attribute of the Spirit of God

    If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God, And reject Paul and the other apostles as true representatives of Jesus and God the Father, why are you even here?  What Jesus said is true.  “He that rejects him, has rejected not only him, but the one that sent him also”> so understanding this, you simply have no part, with him or us .  IMO.  Repent DT!

    I HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVEN DEBATE WITH ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE ,  JESUS IS THE TRUE MESSIAH,  SENT BY, GOD THE FATHER.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

    June 26, 2024 at 5:41 pm#946560
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Point made and confirmed; you have no idea why you believe what you believe and are simply following the flow of what others have told you.

    You: If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God, And reject Paul and the other apostles as true representatives of Jesus and God the Father, why are you even here?

    Me: Why are you here; to have your belief system affirmed and/or argue for years over religious dogma? For over twenty years people have been arguing who the “word” is in John 1:1; sounds productive to me! You would think after centuries of arguing there would be a consensus; but there isn’t. You’ll argue over nothing, but when a real question is asked, you run for the hills. Paul doesn’t even meet the qualifications of an apostle according to Peter; but you believe Paul was greater than any of the disciples that actually walked with and were taught by the Jesus…that makes no sense. Wasn’t Peter the rock the church would be built on; yet Paul was “greater” in your eye’s and you follow him over Peter?!?!

    You: What Jesus said is true. “He that rejects him, has rejected not only him, but the one that sent him also” so understanding this, you simply have no part, with him or us.

    Me: I thought this was a place to present one thoughts and ideas?! What you’re really saying is because I don’t believe in the Jesus anymore, I’m not welcome. Same thing Danny and Jodi said. What I really think it is, is the questions are to much and you realize you have no response to them; and it scares you as I’m thinking outside the box you put God in.

    You: I HAVE NO DESIRE TO EVEN DEBATE WITH ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE ,  JESUS IS THE TRUE MESSIAH, SENT BY, GOD THE FATHER.

    Me: Why are you afraid to discuss an alternative? Prove the Jesus is the Messiah. I gave you a list of who the Messiah was to be and what he was to do from the Tanakh, words that came from God. Are you denying God’s words, calling them fallible?

    Why are you so afraid to verify anything? Grab a NT passage quoted from the Tanakh and see if it matches, see if it’s being applied in the same context, compare the Hebrew to the translated words of the modern “bible”; in short, STUDY what God said and set aside man’s interpretations. It will literally change you; it’s a difficult change, but it’s freeing to finally know God is a loving God and actually wants to interact with HIS creation and one doesn’t have to go thru a secondary to come before HIM…a real Dad.

    To sum up, your response is what I am finding to be typical of the christian community; you’re unable to answer the question asked and so you run away. You have no answer to why Matthew claims Isa 7:14 is a prophecy of the birth of Jesus, when it clearly isn’t…this is called a manipulation of God’s word…but you prefer to bury and ignore the lie.

    You: Any one can see your not about correcting a point, but about trashing everything except what you think is expectable, Hardly an attribute of the Spirit of God

    Me: Laughable!! I’m reading the plain words written in the Tanakh; it’s christianity that reads between the lines or changes the words to make christianity work. I have given multiple examples of it and you run from it. I AM “correcting a point.”

    You: If you reject Jesus as the true “messiah/ anointed one” of God

    Me: I do, because he didn’t do what God said he was to do. You can’t even prove that the Jesus is going to accomplish any of what God said “when he gets it right the second time.” Give me the NT passage where the Jesus is going to unit Israel and bring them back from captivity. I won’t hold my breath because the passage doesn’t exist in the NT. Jesus, according to the NT when he returns, is going to judge the world and you will either end up in heave or hell.

    Gene, it’s time to wake up. Your religion (christianity) cannot answer the questions I’m asking; because it can’t answer them, how can it be true? It is really that simple.

    June 27, 2024 at 2:23 am#946561
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….You said,”Wasn’t Peter the rock the church would be built on; yet Paul was “greater” in your eye’s and you follow him over Peter?!?!”
    Me……> , another “lie”, you  quote, which shows me clearly, you actually do not have the “Sprit of Truth’’,  abiding in you, or you would properly understand what Jesus actually was saying  there, and he was not  Saying, PETER  was the  “rock” the church would be built upon ,  what he meant was “The power of God“,  to “reveal “, in the mind of man, “the truth”, would be the “power”,  the church would be built upon> 

    No scripture says,  “Peter was the rock the church would built on”.  Your 40 yrs of church confusion which you went along with, only proves to me, you never had the “Spirit of truth” abiding, in you,  not then nor now it appears, I THOUGHT when you first came here you were being led by the spirit of truth to see “some” of the church errors, but it soon became apparent you were not being led by the spirit of truth after all, but the Spirit of error, I tried to counsel you to not throw out the baby with the wash, but being in ignorance and Arrogance , you have became unreachable, so dialogue with you is futile.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    June 27, 2024 at 6:27 pm#946562
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    I highly recommend you read Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. In Greek “Peter” means “petros” and could you imagine it means “rock” (Strong’s 4074). Yet, you understand this passage to mean “The power of God”, to “reveal “, in the mind of man, “the truth”, that would be the “power”, the church would be built upon.” That is quite the reach into the mind and thoughts of the Jesus, 2000 years ago. If this is what the Jesus meant, why didn’t he say that? Once again we have the issue of each religion interpreting words to fit their religious world view and aren’t in agreement. Again, this is “God’s inspired Word”?!? How can anyone have a different understanding of “what God says”?

    You: I THOUGHT when you first came here you were being led by the spirit of truth to see “some” of the church errors

    Me: I did see the church errors when I first came and is the reason I joined; I was looking to get other people’s thoughts on the teachings in the church, to see if I was heading down the correct path. You, Jodi, and I were on the same path. The difference was I didn’t stop asking questions and didn’t stop studying. As I continued to study, more questions came up; causing even deeper studying and began verifying what was being said because something was off. I started looking up passages quoted from the Tanakh to see if the usage in the NT matched or if they were being used in the original context. To my surprise the writers of the NT twisted, took out of context, or simply butchered the text from the Tanakh. I have given you multiple examples of this corruption, but you ignore it and call me a liar. Tell me Gene, have you verified anything I have written or do you reject it because it goes against your religious beliefs? You like your rut because there’s a comfort in it.

    You: you have became unreachable, so dialogue with you is futile

    Me: I have asked you to show me where God said what you believe to be truth and you don’t or is it you’re unable? You can’t tell me why you believe what you believe; don’t you know why you believe what you believe? How do you “witness” to others if you can’t explain the why?

    You “counseled” me?? We must have a different understanding of what that means; to say I’m wrong all the time without a reason or offering a correction, isn’t counseling. Prove to me why you believe what you believe, support it with God actual word. If you can’t tell me and explain why I’m wrong, who’s really wrong?

    June 28, 2024 at 1:18 am#946564
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……It’s not just me alone that disagrees with you, but Jodi, T3, and nearly everyone here disagrees with you, haven’t you noticed that yet? They don’t want to dialog with you because no matter what scriptures they and I give you, you find or event a way around them. So it is indeed futile to discuss the issues with you.

    Take Isaiah for example you say that the suffering servant was Israel,  so tell us how was Israel “pierced for our transgressions” ?    The “OUR” there is Israel and he, Jesus was “pierced ” for or because of there transgressions. For the transgression of my people “ISREAL” was ‘HE” (JESUS). Affected.  Israel was never afflicted for anyone transgression, but for their own transgressions were they afflicted.

    As far as scriptures go there are many texts that can be taken from different views,  that is why to truly understand them you need the “spirit of truth” guiding your mind”. Those who are being guided by the SPIRIT do see it alike, but there are only a few that truly have the “Spirit (cognisity) of the truth” abiding “in” them, at this time.

    It is the Spirit that teaches us, buy, reveling the truth in our minds , just as it did Peter> that’s the “POWER” that builds the true church>  you would know that if you were of the truth DT. 

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………..gene

     

     

     

    June 28, 2024 at 4:46 pm#946565
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Do you see how you still haven’t answered my question concerning one verse, Isa 7:14; how is it a “prophecy” foretelling the birth of the Jesus as the writer of Matthew claims? Truthfully answer this one question and explain to me how the writer’s claim is truth and not a lie.

    I see things in black and white; there is no gray. This one verse is a make or break for the entire christian bible; it’s either truth or a lie. If there is one lie in the christian bible, it CANNOT be from God. PERIOD!!!

     

     

     

    June 28, 2024 at 7:16 pm#946566
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. 

     

    DT, TO START WITH,

    YOU JUST CONFIRMED HOW FEEBLE-MINDED PERSON SPIRITUALLY YOU ARE, WITH EVERY RESPECT, BY SAYING THAT GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PRODUCE A MERE CREATURE, NEVER MIND HIS SON, WITHOUT THE USE OF THE SPERM AND THE OVUM, NEVER MIND, MAN AND WOMAN.

    YOUR REASONING ABOVE, IF IT IS PROPER TO CALL IT REASONING, IS THE CLEAREST EVIDENCE THAT YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN THE TRUE GOD OF ISRAEL, CREATOR OF ALL WHO IS OMNIPOTENT, ETC, ETC, ETC!

    READ THE SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER,

    Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me forth in the spirit of the Lord: and set me down in the midst of a plain that was

    full of bones.

     2And he led me about through them on every side: now they were very many upon the face of the plain, and they

    were exceeding dry.

     3And he said to me: Son of man, dost thou think these bones shall live? And I answered: O Lord God, thou knowest. 4And he said to me: Prophesy concerning these bones; and say to them: Ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5Thus saith the Lord God to these bones:

    Behold, I will send spirit into you,

    and you shall live. 6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to grow over you, and will cover you with skin:

    and I will give you spirit and you shall live,

    and you shall know that I am the Lord.

    And he said to me:

    Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O son of man, and say to the spirit:

    Thus saith the Lord God:

    Come, spirit, from the four winds,

    and blow upon these slain, and let them live again. 

    10And I prophesied as he had commanded me:

    and the spirit came into them, and they lived:

    and they stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

    Now answer please:

    DOES THIS EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY HAVE A BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    NOW READ THE NEXT VERSE:

    And he said to me: Son of man:

    All these bones are the house of Israel.. 

    WHEN WILL YOU LEARN THE TRUTH? DT.

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S WORK, IT IS HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO

    THE HUMAN BEING IN FLESH AND BLOOD!

    ADAM LIVED IN HIS FLESH AFTER HE SINNED,

    BUT FOR GOD HE WAS DEAD!

    JESUS, “THE WORD” GOD’S SPIRIT MADE FLESH, THE SECOND ADAM DIED ON THE CROSS, BUT FOR GOD,

    HE LIVED IN HIS SPIRIT THE HOLY GHOST IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH,

    HE LIVED GLORIFIED BOTH IN HIS SPIRIT AND IN HIS FLESH IN ONE 

    GLORIFIED BODY AS

    JESUS CHRIST, THE TRUE 

    HERE IT COMES SWALLOW IT DOWN INTO YOUR GUTTS!

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal

     

    NOW LET’S START AND READ PLEASE:

    Genesis 17:16 And I will bless her, and of her,

    I WILL GIVE YOU A SON,…

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    GOD GAVE ABRAHAM A SON

    Genesis 18:10 And he said to him:

    I will return and come to thee at this time, life accompanying and Sara thy wife

    SHALL HAVE A SON…..

    SHOW ME WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE READ THAT GOD RETURNED AND CAME TO ABRAHAM

    IS GOD ALSO A LIAR???

    Genesis 21:1 And the Lord VISITED SARAH

    WHERE IS ABRAHAM MENTIONED?

    HE WAS SUPPOSED TO RETURN AND COME TO ABRAHAM NO??? 

    KEEP ON READING:

    as he had promised:

    and FULFILLED  what he had spoken.

    2 And SHE CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON IN HER OLD AGE,

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD HAD FORETOLD HER.

    DT, I REPEAT:

    ONLY GOD, AND IN A PARTICULAR AND MYSTERIOUS WAY SARAH,

    ARE INVOLVED IN THE CONCEPTION AND BIRTH OF ISAAC!

    NEITHER ABRAHAM NOR A MERE HINT OF A SEXUAL ACT IS MENTIONED.

    I AM WAITING FOR YOUR FEEBLE SPIRITUAL PERCEPTION, WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    MORE SCRIPTURE:

    Genesis 18:11Now they were both old,

    WHERE NOT ALSO BOTH OLD WHEN ISHMAEL WAS CONCEIVED AND BORN???

    WHAT DOES “BOTH OLD” STAND FOR THEN?

    and far advanced in years,

    WHY EMPHATICALLY MENTIONED IN THE ABOVE??

    and it had ceased to be with Sara after the manner of women.

    12And she laughed secretly, saying: After I am GROWN OLD, and my lord is an OLD MAN,

    shall I give myself to PLEASURE?

    THUS, AGAIN IN THE ABOVE IS ASSERTED THAT BOTH ABRAM AND SARAI ARE INFERTILE, AND SEXUAL PLEASURE WAS DEAD. WELL HINTED OUT ALSO HEREUNDER BY PAUL,

    FOR YOU A LIAR:

    Romans 4:19 And he was not weak in faith;

    neither did he consider his own body

    NOW DEAD,

    whereas he was almost a hundred years old,

    nor THE DEAD womb of Sara.

    NOW TELL ME USING ONLY SCRIPTURES,

    WHAT CONVINCES YOU THEN, THAT ISAAC WAS BORN THROUGH A NORMAL SEXUAL LOVING ACT, AND ABRAHAM IS ISAAC’S BIOLOGICAL FATHER?

    NOW TO MATTHEW ACCORDING TO YOU, ALSO A LIAR:

    Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father.

    For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

    WOULD YOU ACCEPT THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE THAT GOD CAN RAISE UP CHILDREN TO ABRAHAM OUT OF STONES,

    NEVER MIND, MAN, WOMAN, SEX, SPERM, AND OVUM?

     

    NOW ANSWER THIS ONE:

    ARE THE ABOVE CHILDREN NORMAL HUMANS, OR ALSO

    DEMIGODS???

    NOW, TO THIS SCRIPTURE PLEASE:

    Isaiah 66: 7 Before she was in labour,

    she brought forth;

    before her time came to be delivered,

    she brought forth a man-child.

    8Who hath ever heard such a thing?

    and who hath seen the like to this?

    ATTENTION NOW READ THE LAST VERSE:

    shall the earth bring forth in

    ONE DAY?

    NOW JUST READ IT AGAIN:

    Genesis 21:1 And the Lord VISITED SARA, as he had promised:

    and FULFILLED  what he had spoken.

    2 And SHE CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON IN HER OLD AGE,

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD HAD FORETOLD HER.

    The last verse is as clear as a crystal:

    AT THE TIME THAT GOD FORETOLD HER,

    PRECISELY, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ON THE SAME DAY THAT GOD VISITED SARAH!

    DT, ISN’T THAT, WHAT SARAH EXPERIENCED???

    “IN ONE DAY”,

    WHEN GOD VISITED HER,

    AS HE HAD PROMISED, 

    FULFILLED WHAT HE HAD SPOKEN TO ABRAHAM, 

    AND “SARAH CONCEIVED AND BORE A SON” IN HER OLD AGE?

    IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE OUT OF NOWHERE!!!

    HERE THIS NOW:

    IN THE SAME WAY ABLE WAS BORN,

    IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION,

    JESUS WAS ALSO BORN

    IN THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW CREATION!

    WHILE ISAAC WAS ALSO BORN

    IN THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT!

    THE BEGINNING OF REDEMPTION BY JESUS. SINCE ALL IN/BY HIM!!!

    DT, THREE BEGINNINGS ALL ACCOMPLISHED BY

     “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN,  ALL IN/BY HIM!

    A PREEXISTED SPIRIT,  SIMPLY

    TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY!

    THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST, AND THE LAST OF ALL GOD’S WORK!

    Rev. 1:17 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying:

    Fear not. I am the First and the Last,

    18 And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living forever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.

    NOW THE ONLY SCRIPTURE WE READ THAT IN A WAY TELLS US THAT GOD “RETURNED” AND “CAME” ENIGMATICALLY TO ABRAHAM IS PRECISELY

    ON ISAAC’S BIRTH, AND IN ISAAC HIMSELF:

    HOW AND IN WHAT WAY GOD CAME TO ABRAHAM IN ISAAC HIMSELF AND BECAME

    SARAH’S LAUGHTER!

    READ NOW HEREUNDER PLEASE:

    Genesis 21:6 And Sara said:

    God hath MADE “A LAUGHTER” for “ME”:

    WHAT WOULD YOU MAKE OUT OF SARAH’S DECLARATION THAT

    GOD MADE A LAUGHTER FOR HER,

    WHEN ISAAC WAS BORN AND GIVEN TO SARAH OUT OF NOWHERE WITHIN HER

    BARE HANDS???

    WHAT DID SARAH DO?

    I TELL YOU:

    WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT SARAH

    LAUGHED, LAUGHED, AND LAUGHED!

    LET’S READ A BIT MORE:

    Genesis 21:6…… whosoever shall HEAR OF IT will LAUGH WITH ME.

    I BET YOU ARE ALSO LAUGHING RIGHT NOW DT. NO???

    AND HOW!!!

    SPIRITUALLY FEEBLE MINDED!!! WITH EVERY RESPECT!!!

    CONSIDERING THE PAIN, THE BLOOD, AND GOD KNOWS WHAT THROUGHOUT THE MONTHS OF PREGNANCY AND BIRTH, EVERY NORMAL WOMAN OF THIS WORLD EXPERIENCED EVERY BIRTH THEY HAD.

    AREN’T YOU CONVINCED YET THAT ISAAC’S BIRTH WAS NOT IN ANY WAY,

    A NORMAL BIRTH THROUGH A SEXUAL LOVING ACT OF THIS MORTAL, CURSED, AND SATANIC WORLD? 

    UNLESS YOU ALSO ACCEPT THAT ALMIGHTY GOD,

    TO ESTABLISH HIS “GENUINE” ETERNAL COVENANT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO SATAN AND HIS CURSED AND FILTHY WAYS!!!

    WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!! WHY MAY I ASK:

    FIRST, THE ETERNAL COVENANT, FUNDAMENTALLY GOD’S GENUINE  PLAN FOR REDEMPTION,

    WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN GENUINELY DIVINE,

    AND SECOND,

    GOD WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN ALMIGHTY AT ALL WOULD HE?

    THE FACT THAT GOD ESTABLISHED HIS UNIQUE GENUINE ETERNAL COVENANT IN ISAAC’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH, ATTENTION NOW PLEASE AGAIN:

    DESPITE SARAH’S PARTICIPATION, NEVERTHELESS, THROUGHOUT DIVINE, AGAIN BY:

     “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, A PREEXISTING SPIRIT, WHO MAINTAINED HIS PRIMACY AND BECAME 

    BOTH THE FIRSTBORN IN ISAAC ‘S SOUL AND HIS CREATOR ON HIS CONCEPTION. HERE IT COMES CHEW:

    THE GOD OF ISAAC! 

    AS MUCH AS HE ALSO WAS SPIRITUALLY THE FIRSTBORN IN ABRAM’S CONCEPTION AND BIRTH, IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB:

    HERE IT COMES AGAIN:

    THE GOD OF ABRAHAM!!!

    “BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN I AM”

    THE FIRST PATRIARCH!

    AS MUCH AS WELL HE ALSO WAS IN REBECCAS’ WOMB, CONCEIVED AND CREATED

    JACOB AND BECAME 

    THE TRUE ISRAEL! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    BOTH

    THE GOD OF JACOB and

    THE GOD OF ISRAEL!

    Now back to

    Isaiah 66:9 SHALL NOT I that make others to bring forth children,

    myself bring forth, saith the Lord?

    SHALL I, that give generation to others,

    be barren, saith the Lord thy God?

    NOW DO YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD, A SPIRIT,  IN ORDER TO FULFILL WHAT HE SAID ABOVE DID SO IN THE SAME WAY AS HUMANS DO, I MEAN

    THROUGH SEX?

    THROUGH MAN, WOMAN, AND THEIR FILTHY WAY, TO BRING FORTH CHILDREN?

    JUST READ WHAT GOD ASSERTED IN

    Isaiah 55: 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts:

     NOR YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, saith the Lord.

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. 

    DT, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!

    ISAAC, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE AVAILABLE, AND CONCERNING YOUR REASONING,

    SPECIFICALLY HAD NO BIOLOGICAL FATHER AS HUMANS HAVE THROUGH SEX.

    WHICH MEANS THAT SINCE THE ENTIRE JEWISH PEOPLE, “THE ISRAELITES”, ARE DESCENDANTS OF ISAAC, ARE NOT GENUINELY 100% HUMANS OF EARTH, THROUGH SEX, SATANIC IN THOSE DAYS, BUT, I REPEAT

    ACCORDING TO YOU,

    THEY ARE ALL LIKE JESUS,

    A TYPE OF DEMIGODS!!!

    THE FACT THAT THEY ARE AFTER ALL GOD’S ONLY UNIQUE ONE OF A KIND

    CHOSEN PEOPLE! NO?

    Genesis 17:19 And God said to Abraham: Sara thy wife shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Isaac, and I will establish my covenant with him for a PERPERTUAL covenant, and with his seed after him.

    21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac,

    whom Sara shall bring forth to thee at this time in the next year.

    ISAAC:

    BOTH A SON OF GOD, SPIRITUALLY,

    IN ISAAC’S SOUL,

    OF THE HOLY GHOST,

    AND A SON OF SARAH,

    CARNALLY, IN ISAAC’S FLESH,

    OF “THE WORD” MADE FLESH ,

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN.

    WELL HINTED OUT IN

    John4:36 And HE THAT REAPETH  receiveth wages,

    and gathereth fruit unto life everlasting:

    that both HE THAT SOWETH, and, HE THAT REAPETH  may rejoice TOGETHER.

    TOGETHER ON JESUS’ DEATH IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    37 For in this is the saying true:

    That it is ONE MAN THAT SOWETH, and it is another that REPEATH.

    John 4:22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know;

    for SALVATION is of the Jews.

    SALVATION PRECISELY INITIATED PHYSICALLY ON

    THE CONCEPTION AND BIRTH OF ISAAC,

    THROUGHOUT DIVINE!

    IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, ALL IN/BY HIM:

    THE BEGINNING OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT.

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

    the firstborn of every creature:

     16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

     18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

    that in all things he may hold the primacy: 

    19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father,

    that all fullness should dwell; 

    20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    June 29, 2024 at 5:47 am#946567
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    What does the Ezekiel passage of God raising a valley of dry bones have to do with being of the seed of David? Didn’t those “dry bones” once have a biological father? Clothing the bones in skin doesn’t make God their father, what kind of idiotic reasoning is this?!?!?

    How is physical sex an act of Satan? God created it so mankind would continue; in fact, God said “be fruitful and multiple.” So the physical act IS NOT of “Satan”, but a gift from God. Mankind is the only creature created that doesn’t have sex to only procreate; we have been gifted pleasure. Maybe instead of “spiritualizing” everything and using your carnal knowledge to explain away these “spiritual” thoughts, spend some time with what God said. Also, your obsession with “sex” is starting to concern me.

    Your “understanding”, if you want to call it that, of Isaac’s birth is pure foolishness. I will guarantee there isn’t one person who will say what you are claiming has any truth in it. NOT ONE!! So your “understanding” is NOT from the spirit, but from your own imagination.

    You quote a bunch of NT verses, which is irrelevant since we are trying to establish the veracity of the NT based on the Jesus being the Messiah. The question is, is the Jesus born of man or of the spirit? In nothing you said did you address this question, but went on this weak diatribe of “justifying” what you want to be truth, and said nothing.

    Is the Jesus the seed of David as God promised in II Samuel OR was the Jesus born of the spirit?

    July 3, 2024 at 4:21 am#946571
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    I wondered what the latest conversation might be on here.

    You: The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say

    Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore

    has no male biological connection to David and Solomon.

    ME: I believe I have given my position on this to you before or at least I have presented it on this forum a number of times.

    Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David. I honestly cannot see how anyone can dispute this. It’s the book of Jesus Christ’s lineage (Genesis) going from Abraham to Joseph. Matthew reiterates Jesus’s genetic lineage (genea) to Abraham and David again in verse 17.

    and yes, Mary conceived before her and Joseph came together where Matthew gives us the understanding that Isaiah 7 held prophecy concerning the coming Messiah, which that prophecy speaks to kingship over Israel being an heir of David and not a man from another tribe. So here we have yet again Matthew speaking to Jesus being biologically a son of David and thus also Abraham.

    The prophecy involved a conception and God said it was for a sign, God would have a direct hand in the conception to an heir on David’s throne. By the power of God’s Spirit Mary conceived a rightful heir to David’s throne.

    Jesus is a human being, and we all know full well that God established what is needed for conception of a human being, a male haploid cell fusing with a female haploid cell. According to Mathew’s book of Jesus’s genetic line, the haploid cell came from Joseph and Matthew also tells us the conception occurred through  the Holy Spirit.

    In Luke 1

    27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

    31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    the below prophecy directly speaks to the above

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    First you have a son of David and then God becomes a Father to this son. This is something that many on this forum like to completely ignore, just how they fully ignore we are given Jesus’s genetic line to David having come from Joseph and just as they like to ignore that the conception by God’s direct hand was for a sign unto the house of David. To turn and say the miraculous conception occurred for the purpose that Mary’s son be a godman is an outlandish lie against clear scripture. Such was invented to align Jesus with the likes of Greek and Roman gods to gain more converts, which more converts served well politically for Constantine.

    July 3, 2024 at 2:34 pm#946572
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Read Matthew 1 carefully! He is specifically stating that he is giving us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a son of Abraham and David.

    Me: Except we have King Jechoniah listed in this “lineage”; one who God said was to be remembered as childless. This would mean no descendant if his would ever be king; yet, the writer of Matthew mistakenly puts him in. Therefore the tracing of this lineage back to Jechoniah takes the Jesus out of the picture as being the Messiah. NONE of the descendants of Jechoniah would ever be king. How does one dance around this? By ignoring it!

    You go on to cite Isaiah 7 as being proof of the coming messiah. Have you ever read the chapter in its entirety? There is NOTHING written that points to a “coming messiah” anywhere in this chapter. This birth spoken of was a sign to King Ahaz of Judah; where and how do you come up with it being a sign for the birth of the Jesus? You believe it points to the Jesus; because you were told it did. What you didn’t do was verify it. You smashed your “I Believe Button” and kept going; never questioning what you are told.

    Also, the word in Hebrew translated as “virgin” in verse 14 is “almah”, which means “young woman.” The Hebrew for a sexually pure young woman, one who has never been with a man, is “betulah” and ISN’T used in this verse. So to believe Isaiah is talking about one who is sexually pure is absolutely wrong. Let alone speaking of some “immaculate conception” seven centuries in the future.

    One can even prove the writer of Matthew misused Isa 7:14 as being a reference to the birth of the Jesus and show the corruption of the many translations in use today; copy and paste the Hebrew of verse 14 into a translator and it reveals how you, formerly me, and all others have been duped into believing a lie.

    Herbrew

    לכן יתן אדני הוא לכם אות הנה העלמה הרה וילדת בן וקראת שמו עמנו אל׃

    Translated for your reading enjoyment:

    “Therefore, may my Lord give you a sign: Behold, the maiden is pregnant and gives birth to a son, and you have called his name with us.”

    Who is the “you” the sign is given to, King Ahaz. Who is Isaiah speaking about, a “maiden.” Wait a moment, the Hebrew translated states this maiden IS currently pregnant; this woman was standing there with the king and Isaiah, and this prophecy has NOTHING to do with the conceiving of a child 700 years in the future.

    How much more evidence is needed to show Isa 7:14 has nothing to do with a prophecy of the birth of a messiah; this has EVERYTHING to do with a sign to King Ahaz that before the child knows the difference between good and evil the kingdoms coming against Judah will be wiped out. A promise God made to King Ahaz and was fulfilled when the Assyrian’s dispersed the Northern Kingdom and the two other kingdoms that joined together to fight Judah. All you have to do is read; AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREEEEEEEEE!!! Isn’t it awesome!!

    July 3, 2024 at 2:50 pm#946573
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Quickly covering your Luke citation, that is one BIG nope! You quote I Chron 17:11 as proof and all you’ve proven is you believe what you were told to believe. There are three passages you need to look up as they parallel each other and reveal who the “son” God is speaking of; sorry to break it to you, it’s not your Jesus – it’s Solomon.

    I Chron 17:1-15

    II Sam 7:1-16

    I Chron 28:1-10

    It doesn’t get any more clear than this. Besides you have to explain II Sam 7:13 He will build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he will be a son for me, whom I will punish when he does wrong, with a rod of men and with blows of the human beings. God says he will punish this son WHEN he does wrong (God knows this son is going to make mistakes); wasn’t the Jesus “perfect” and “sinless”? If it was actually a reference to the Jesus, wouldn’t God already know he was going to be “sinless”; so why did God say HE was going to punish him WHEN he does wrong?

    Verify what I am saying before you reject it; I Chron 28:5-7 proves this isn’t a prophecy pointing to the Jesus, but Solomon.

    Finally, you quote the Luke passage where the spirit of God will overshadow Mary, she will become pregnant, and  call it a “miraculous conception”; so is the Jesus a seed of David and Solomon or a creation of the spirit? If you say “seed” by a genealogical account, that would mean Joseph impregnated Mary and the writer is lying; if you say spirit Mary to become pregnant, then how is the Jesus of the “seed” (this is biological) of David and Solomon? Jesus now becomes a demigod by definition (God impregnating a mortal woman) and IS no different than the Greek and Roman gods.

    The answer to all this is really simple, the birth account given by Matthew and Luke can’t be true because Joseph wasn’t the one who impregnated Mary.

    July 4, 2024 at 3:44 am#946574
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Oh yes, the curse!

    “Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.”

    Well it’s scripturally obvious to me anyway, that this curse was lifted,

    We can read all about Jeconiah’s grandson Zerubbabel in a number of OT books and other offspring of his are also spoken of (so he wasn’t rendered childless after all and there are even Babylonian tablets that list his sons).

    Zerubbabel was set free from Babylon where he returns and rules as a governor over Judah (so his offspring did have a ruling position in Judah after all).

    Additionally, God promised him, “You will succeed, not by military might or by your own strength, but by my Spirit. 7 Obstacles as great as mountains will disappear before you. You will rebuild the Temple, and as you put the last stone in place, the people will shout, ‘Beautiful, beautiful!’” (so Jeconiah did have offspring that prospered after all).

    Additionally, God had said to Jeconiah, “”As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off”” but later to his grandson Zerubbabel God said, “I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you” (doesn’t get more prosperous then that)!

    Further, though scripture says that Jeconiah would be taken captive and the curse says he would not prosper in his lifetime, he was later set free by Evil-merodach king of Babylon and this king set Jeconiah’s throne above the throne of the other kings and he ate with the king at his table for the rest of his life. I don’t know about you DT but to me, him going from being a captive to later sitting at the kings table for the rest of his life while being honored above all the other kings sounds like prospering (advancing, making progress) to me!

    Interesting enough, there are both Jews and Christians who also speak to the curse having been lifted.  Jewish Literature speaks to the curse indeed having been lifted and even The Jewish Encyclopedia provides us with, “he repented of his sins which he had committed as king and he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king; he even became the ancestor of the Messiah.”

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