Was Jesus begotten or created?

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June 2, 2024 at 6:26 am#946493
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@DT
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
June 2, 2024 at 7:04 am#946494
DesireTruth
Participant
@Danny,
Find me a passage in the Tanakh that says believing in the Messiah brings salvation.
Why does someone not escaping prison suddenly bring another to the point of wanting to be “saved”? Did the jailer suddenly know what it meant to be “saved”? Instead of repeating sound bites or words on an inspirational poster, you need to be asking yourself is how can Jesus be the messiah when he isn’t of the seed of David as God said the Messiah would be.
June 3, 2024 at 5:14 am#946496
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@DT
Eternity in Hell will be a long long time.
June 3, 2024 at 10:41 am#946497
DesireTruth
Participant
@Danny,
Not worried since God never spoke of a place of eternal torment. Christianity says God loves you very much, but if you’re not interested go to hell…forever!
I see you didn’t find a passage in the Tanakh that says believing in the Messiah brings salvation…typical “I believe button” christian.
Since you believe in a place of eternal torment, you need to explain Isa 66:23 it seems to fly in the face of your eternal damnation theory; I know you won’t, because you can’t. Here it is: “And this shall happen: From new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath all flesh shall come to bow in worship before me,” says Yahweh.” Seems “all flesh” and not just those who believe in the idol Jesus are going to worship God. Did you catch who said those words?

June 3, 2024 at 6:38 pm#946498
Berean
Participant
@ DT
Exodus 24: 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold👉 the blood of the covenant, 👈which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Jeremiah 31]
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that👉 I will make a new covenant 👈with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[33] But this shall
be 👉 the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, 👉I will put my law👈 in their inward parts👈, and write it in their hearts;👈 and will be their God,👈 and they shall be👉 my people.
[34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for👉 I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.👈
Mark 14:24…. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament/covenant which is shed for many.
Mathew 26:28 …For this is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament/covenant, which is shed for many
June 4, 2024 at 1:18 am#946499
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean…..Mark and Matt…… is not saying Jesus’ life gave anyone eternal life or paid for their sins off for them, what it is saying is ,Jesus ” blood i.e (life) was given and shed to show us “how”, to get our sins forgiven, his life was the “example” of the, “new Covenant” of God the Father, at work in mankind.
The whole concept of Jesus doing in our place is a “LIE”, we must all come to repentance ourselves. and live the life Jesus lived ourselves, by the same Holy Spirit in us also. Jesus “demonstrated” to us all how God the Father can deliver us all.
peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
June 5, 2024 at 5:04 am#946501
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@DT
I choose Heaven!
June 7, 2024 at 4:37 am#946505
DesireTruth
Participant
@Danny,
Did God ever speak of heaven being a place you go when you die?
As I have been reading the Tanakh it would seem God is speaking to his creation of the now, how we are to live with each other, but more importantly, how we are to serve God. Of course there are prophecies that deal with future human events; but, what I haven’t found are passages that go into great depth on the afterlife and what we should expect. So should our primary focus be on the afterlife or should it be on the here and now as we grow in our daily lives with God as our center and with each other? Christianity seems to spend a great deal of time focusing on the “there after” and the individual’s “eternal reward” verses God and the worship of HIM.
Christianity has also created this system of good and evil; if you are “good” you get to go to heaven, but if you are “bad” you go to hell. Explain how this system fosters an environment that’s God centered? I see a system of fear; don’t believe in the Jesus, hell is your eternal future.
Do yourself a service, go verify what you have been told is truth with what God said and see if it matches.
June 15, 2024 at 4:50 am#946531
Berean
Participant
@DT
Hey DT you still haven’t responded to my last message (who is the Word? #946498)
June 15, 2024 at 6:29 am#946532
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
You copy and pasted a bunch of verses, offered zero explanation or what they mean to you, AND most importantly, you asked no question. Explain what exactly am I suppose to respond to? Your pointy fingers!??! I have said in the past “pointy fingers” do NOT explain what is going on in your mind and I cannot interpret them to know what your intent is. And you question why I haven’t responded to your post?!?
Answer how the Jesus can be the messiah when he was born of the spirit and isn’t a biological descendant of David and Solomon.
Answer why the writer of Matthew includes Jechoniah in the lineage of Jesus when he was said to be childless…BY GOD!!!
Answer why the writer of Luke uses David’s son Nathan to get to the “messiah” when it was God who said it would be through Solomon.
Answer why the writer of Matthew uses Isa 7:14 as a prophecy pointing to the birth of the Jesus when passage clearly has nothing to do with the coming messiah once it’s put into context with the surrounding verses.
Explain why the writer of Matthew in 2:15 missuses Hosea 11:1 that clearly speaks of Israel being the “son”?
Any comments on Hebrews chapter 1 that I eviscerated (945980) showing the chapter is filled with corruption and if the first chapter is this bad the rest can’t be any better and should never have been in your christian bible.
Shall we talk on christianities corruption of Psalms 16, 22, and 110?
Maybe you would like to dive into the twisting of the Jeremiah 31 passage you quoted.
Then again this would require you to use words to explain why you believe what you believe, instead of communicating with symbols.
June 15, 2024 at 8:43 am#946533
Berean
Participant
@DT
And Moses took👉 the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,👈 and said, Behold👉 the blood of the covenant,👈 which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.(Exodus 24:8)
Why the blood
was sprinkled on the people by Moses?
Quite simply, why sprinkled blood?
What does this mean or symbolize?
THE POINT IS THERE.
I SAY NO MORE.
June 16, 2024 at 7:52 am#946534
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Let me point out, in nothing you wrote did you explain anything; you asked three questions and exclaimed “THE POINT IS THERE” as if by reading one verse I now have the full understanding of what you’re trying to convey. Has the intelligence of people really dropped this much? Do we not understand a conversation is a series of answers, questions, and explanations?
Let’s take your question, “Why the blood was sprinkled on the people by Moses?” Why was the blood sprinkled on the people? One must go back a few verses and read what was happening prior; so let’s read the entire passage beginning in verse 1 to put verse 8 into context.
1 And to Moses he said, “Go up to Yahweh—you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy from the elders of Israel—and you will worship at a distance.
2 And Moses will come near to Yahweh, and they will not come near, and the people will not go up with him.”
3 And Moses came, and he told the people all the words of Yahweh and all the regulations. And all the people answered with one voice, and they said, “All the words that Yahweh has spoken we will do.”
4 And Moses wrote all the words of Yahweh, and he rose early in the morning, and he built an altar at the base of the mountain and set up twelve memorial stones for the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 And he sent young men from the Israelite’s, and they offered burnt offerings, and they sacrificed sacrifices as fellowship offerings to Yahweh using bulls.
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and he put it in bowls, and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the scroll of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people, and they said, “All that Yahweh has spoken we will do, and we will listen.”
8 And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and he said, “Look, the blood of the covenant that Yahweh has made with you in accordance with all these words.”
First Moses and the others went up to God, only Moses was allowed to come before God and Moses then told the people what God spoke to him. The people responded saying they would do all God had spoken. Moses wrote down what God told him and the next day built an altar and 12 memorials/pillars representing the 12 tribes of Israel. Moses then sends out young men who offered “burnt offerings” and “fellowship/peace offerings” to God. Moses then takes this blood and sprinkles it on the altar. After which Moses reads from the book of the covenant and once again the people say they will do all God has spoken – did you catch the people say this twice. Then he sprinkles the people declaring God has made a covenant with them and they are to honor this covenant by doing what God spoke.
I’m going to focus on the fellowship/peace offering, which is found in Lev 7:11-21 for your reading enjoyment. Reading the Leviticus passage you will discover there are three types of fellowship/peace offerings; each for a specific purpose and/or occasion. These include offerings of thanksgiving, offerings made in fulfillment of a vow, and voluntary/freewill offerings expressing one’s desire for fellowship with or to come closer to God.
Interestingly when reading the Exodus and Leviticus passages one now has a better understanding of what is happening and one can reason from the offerings made – specifically the fellowship/peace offering – was a offering to signify a vow between God and the people and the people were going to do what God said. Did you catch the altar built to God was sprinkled first and then the people? Since the context of the passage is focused on an agreement between God and the people the sprinkling of blood would seem to point to a vow being made and not for atoning sins.
To answer your question, Moses sprinkled the people because a vow had been made between God and them. Now why do you think Moses sprinkled blood on the people and what was “symbolic” in him doing so?

June 16, 2024 at 8:33 am#946535
Berean
Participant
@DT You Say:
To answer your question, Moses sprinkled the people because a vow had been made between God and them. Now why do you think Moses sprinkled blood on the people and what was “symbolic” in him doing so?
Me
Thank you for your answer but why is blood used here and other occasions in the OT.
For me this blood symbolized the blood of Christ for the erasure of sins (ultimate goal)

June 17, 2024 at 12:58 am#946537
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
You: For me this blood symbolized the blood of Christ for the erasure of sins (ultimate goal)
Me: This is a fascinating response, your personal belief overrides the words written. Even though the sprinkling of the blood was to solidify a vow, a covenant between God and the Israelite’s and has nothing to do with atoning for anything, you read it as being symbolic for the atonement of sins. In other words you are molding God’s word to fit your belief system.
Symbolizing is the same as interpreting, anyone can make anything mean whatever they want and comes from the mind of man and not from God or Spirit. To claim this Exodus passage is symbolic and points to the “erasure of sins” (injecting an idea that doesn’t exist) is an assault on God’s word. There is nothing messianic in this passage, no matter how deep in your heart-of-hearts you believe there is.
And when did God say the blood shed by the messiah was to atone for sin?
June 17, 2024 at 1:57 am#946538
Berean
Participant
@ DT
Why did Moses use blood?
Everywhere in the OT, in the sanctuary service in particular, there is talk of animals being slaughtered and blood sprinkled on the veil…etc.
We cannot put this aside, because there is a profound reason, and it is not a minor question, nor a human invention but a divine institution which certainly had to be abolished in times marked by prophecy.

June 18, 2024 at 12:42 am#946539
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean…….Blood is a metaphor for “life”, remember what Jesus said, ……> “whosoever will save his life will lose it, and whosoever loses his life for my sake, will save it”>. We must all come to pour out “our lives” (the way we live), in obedience to God the Father, just as Jesus did, (blood is the symbol of life) in scripture. Therefore it says …..> “there is no forgiveness of sin, without the shedding of blood”. Heb 9:22…….> ” AND ALMOST ALL THINGS, are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no “remission”.
We must all get rid of “our lives” (the way we live) through the “REPENTANCE ” , given to us by God the Father, through his “Holy Spirit”, and live just as Jesus did, in obedience to God the Father. As lambs of God we must all do what Jesus did, put our own Will to death, in obedience to God the Father. we must all come to say “not my will be done, but thy will be done”, just like Jesus did.
peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
June 18, 2024 at 1:53 am#946540
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Moses used blood to seal the covenant between God and the Israelite’s and nothing more; to keep asking the same question isn’t going to change my response. The plain words written say only that. It’s christianity that wants there to be more to help support its idolatry; I say idolatry, because anything that comes between you and God IS idolatry…God said so!
If blood is the only thing that can “atone” for sin, why were the people of Nineveh forgiven when they called out to God and turned from their wickedness – no blood, how can a 1/10 ephah of flour be used for a sin offering (Lev 5:11) – no blood, when David sinned by sleeping with Bathsheba the wife of Uriah, he cried out to God and was forgiven (II Sam 12:13) – no blood, why does God tell Jeremiah 36:3 “when the house of Judah hears all the disasters that I am planning to do to them, then they may turn back each one from his evil way, and I will forgive their guilt and their sin.” – no sacrificial blood mentioned, in Isaiah 55:7 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” – no blood. Are you sensing a pattern? Blood isn’t required to be forgiven! Christianity has this absolutely wrong! Hebrews 9:22 is a lie; rip this book from your bible, it is filled with lies! Yet you “christians” embrace this book because the christology supports the idea of the Jesus messiah; HOWEVER, none will verify the Tanakh passages quoted in to see if they match (let alone if they are used in the correct context) out of fear it will destroy their system of beliefs.
What does God require of his creation; read Ps 51:16-17 God doesn’t delight in burnt offerings, but a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart…nothing about blood. Psalm 51 by David is about him having slept with Bathsheba and crying out to God…a broken and repentant heart and guess what, NO BLOOD! It gets even better when reading Hosea 14:2 “Take words with you, and return to Yahweh. Tell him, “Forgive all our sins, and accept that which is good: so we offer our lips like bulls.” The use of words and asking for forgiveness is like a sacrificial bull. Again, NO BLOOD!!
There is zero blood needed for God to forgive you. What christianity teaches about the blood sacrifice is a lie; how much more evidence do you need before you turn back to God?
Let’s not forget the question you still won’t answer, when did God say the blood shed by the messiah was to atone for sin? Or, because the Jesus is the “sacrificial lamb”, when did God say human sacrifice was acceptable?
June 18, 2024 at 3:23 am#946541
T3
Participant
@DT
While Romans 3:21-23 is fairly well known and often quoted:
“21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[a] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ”
I think the answer to your many questions is revealed in the verses that follow it:
“24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”
Too many Christians have been led to believe in some sort of false dichotomy between the OT and NT, as if God’s position on how anyone can be forgiven (or as most people will say, “saved”) have suddenly changed post-Jesus. The reality, though, is that God has only ever forgiven anyone, whether OT or NT, (a.k.a.”saved them”) on the basis of that individual’s faith/trust/belief in God’s promise to be merciful and forgive them; moreover, the basis of God’sforgiveness was, is, and will always be the sacrifice that Jesus made “once for all” (Romans 6:10) when He gave His life/shed His blood as a “sacrifice of atonement” (Rom 3:24) for sin.
In practical terms, this simply means that everyone “B.C.” (or OT, if you prefer) placed their faith in the promise that God would be merciful / forgive them, and since God knew that Jesus’ sacrifice was a future reality (from the standpoint of those who sinned “B.C.”) he withheld the deserved punishment/judgment for their sin (Romans 3:25-26). This was true for Israelites, Ninevites, Babylonians, etc., and the evidence that they were trusting God’s promise (a.k.a. “faith”, v.25) was expressed through contrition, through a broken and repentant heart, through confessing their sin and turning back to God. Furthermore, for the Israelites who were in a covenantal relationship with God, He asked them to keep the terms of that covenant as a sign to the world that the promise was for everyone.
And so now for those of us who are “A.D.” (or NT) we not only have God’s promise that was first given through the nation of Israel, but we see how He had always planned on keeping that promise through Christ. This is the righteousness that was revealed “apart from the Law” since by simply keeping the Law we are all still condemned (Romans 3:21). Not only that, but what is the evidence that we are trusting in God / putting our “faith” in that promise? Is it not contrition? Brokenness and repentance? Turning back to God? Like I said, there is no dichotomy in God, no changing the rules post-Jesus, we are just living in the fulfillment of the promise rather than the promise alone,
Indeed, just as Rom 3:23 stipulates that “all have sinned and fall short” – there is no difference – verse 24 declares that “all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (a.k.a. “forgiven” or “saved”) on the basis of what Jesus has accomplished through His death & resurrection – again, no difference.
Jesus has always been the focal point of God’s plan to redeem mankind: His life, His death, His blood, His resurrection…all of it. The faith of some looked forward, whereas ours looks backward. They had no name to praise other than God’s holy name, no clear understanding of how God would keep His promise to be merciful and forgive, whereas we see the glory, the sacrifice, and the exultation of God’s only Son, Christ Jesus our Lord. God gave the Israelites a sacrificial system that foreshadowed Jesus’ sacrifice (blood and sacrifice was a daily part of their experience, and the day of Atonement brought the substitutionary, sacrificial blood into focus every year), and now that “it is finished”, we don’t need to continually offer sacrifices because we can praise the name of the One who willingly offered Himself in our place:
“18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.” – 1 Peter 1:18-21
June 19, 2024 at 1:15 am#946542
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T3……Good post. It is truly by “Faith”, in God the Father, and “IN” Jesus Christ, we see that “FAITH” at work>
peace and love to you and yours T3……..gene
June 19, 2024 at 8:24 am#946543
DesireTruth
Participant
@T3
Slightly confused with your response as it has nothing to do with our previous conversation; which addressed the heart of everything the NT is dependent upon, Jesus being the “messiah.” If the Jesus is the “messiah”, did he fulfill everything the Tanakh said the Messiah was to do? If the Jesus didn’t fulfill what the Tanakh said he was to do, then he isn’t the true “messiah” and nullifies the rest of the christian bible.
The most obvious “criteria” of the Messiah is his lineage and both Matthew and Luke say Jesus’ daddy is the spirit and therefore has no male biological connection to David and Solomon. With no biological connection to David and Solomon, a promise made by God to David, Jesus misses this “requirement” and cannot be the true Messiah. How can you or anyone continue to say the Jesus is the messiah when he isn’t a biological seed of David and Solomon? The flip side of this argument, if Jesus is biologically connected to David and Solomon, why did Matthew and Luke say Jesus was conceived of the spirit? It’s becoming more obvious everyday why no one addresses this issue or just simply ignores it.
Matthew also claims the Jesus is the fulfillment of Isa 7:14; however, when this verse is read in context it has nothing to do with a “coming messiah.” Can you provide a passage where God said “a virgin birth” will be a “sign” of the Messiah? If you cannot, then what Matthew wrote is a lie and the NT is the “inspired Word of God”???
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