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Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 25,501 through 25,520 (of 25,906 total)
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  • March 22, 2024 at 4:57 am#946194
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    King James Bible

    Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    Let’s analyze this wording, it won’t take much because all you need is a child like level of understanding to comprehend what is written. It says “when Jesus was risen”; when was Jesus risen, “early on the first day of the week.” There is no comma or other punctuation to cause you to pause or to break this phrase into multiple parts; it is a single phrase that conveys one simple thought – on the first day of the week Jesus was risen.

    Face it Gene, what you have been taught is a lie; Jesus wasn’t raised up Saturday afternoon. He would have been raised up between Saturday sunset and Sunday sunrise. Believe what you wish.

    Why won’t you comment on Psalm 16:10 and the churches false teaching of it being prophecy pointing to Jesus, or how Psalm 110:1 “stumped” the Pharisees, or Isa 7:14 being a supposed prophecy of Jesus’ birth, or why the verb tenses are changed to future tense in Isa 9:6-7? The list of corrupt teachings goes on and the modern church today just accepts what they have been told is truth and never verifies what they are being taught, they just “believe”; the reason why there are so many religions today. Every faith is another faith claiming how right they are and how wrong the others are; but none ever verifying why they believe, what they believe.

    March 22, 2024 at 5:05 am#946195
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Since Jodi’s post is “most excellent” (Bill, Ted is that you?!?!)

    Maybe you can tell me what it means to be “circumcised of the heart” and why in Ezek 44:9 Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Every foreigner uncircumcised of heart and uncircumcised of flesh shall not come into my sanctuary—not any of the foreigners who are in the midst of the Israelites.” If circumcision means nothing, why does God say no one will be allowed into HIS sanctuary if they aren’t circumcised of both the heart and flesh once the third temple is built? Paul teaches against God!

    March 22, 2024 at 5:21 am#946196
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Gene

    DT is right about the day of Christ’s resurrection.
    If you want/if anyone wants a complete study on the subject go to:
    https://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/

    God bless

    March 22, 2024 at 7:26 am#946197
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You are a liar.
    The Suffering Servant pictured in Isaiah 53 is a Sin-bearer.
    Only Jesus the Messiah is ‘the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.’

    March 22, 2024 at 7:43 am#946198
    Berean
    Participant

    SO TRUE DD

    March 22, 2024 at 8:54 am#946199
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    What an intellectual response to questions asked in post# 946186. You really don’t know how to respond; except with what you have been told to believe and even then your grasping at thin air, you believe something you can’t explain.

    Still need to know who is speaking where in this dialog and what pronouns reference who. Lead me; bring me “back to the fold”! Explain the chapter so I can understand what’s really happening. Something tells me you can’t and all you have is your “I Believe Button.”

    You: Only Jesus the Messiah is ‘the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world.’

    Me: show me where in the Tanakh the Messiah was called the “lamb of God”, how belief in the Messiah would save someone, and where a man could take the sins of the world away.

    Danny, your none answers are actually revealing answers that show you don’t know why you believe what you believe. Before you call me a liar, I would recommend you back up your claim with scripture and not churchy responses that cannot be proved. If you aren’t willing to back up your belief, shhhhhh; your religion will go on without me.

    March 22, 2024 at 10:01 am#946200
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT

    …..he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

     

    Who do you think is the “he”?

     

     

     

     

     

    March 22, 2024 at 1:15 pm#946201
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Me: Lineage ran through the father and NOT the mother.

    The mother has NOTHING to do with lineage,

    Me: NOT QUITE PRECISE:

    Luke gives the name Heli (the father of Mary) but then doesn’t list Mary but mentions Joseph. Why?

    LET’S SEE HOW VITAL THE WOMAN IS, CONCERNING INHERITANCES!

    Heli had no sons!

    But according to the Law of Moses,

    ESTABLISHED BY GOD,

    when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name. Therefore,

    Joseph, THE MAN, ON MARRYING MARY, THE WOMAN!!!

    became the legal son of Heli according to the Law of Moses AGAIN

    ESTABLISHED BY GOD ALL-KNOWING,

    and, therefore,

    could now be legally included in the genealogy!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT NOTHING TO DO WITH JECONIAH AT ALL ANYMORE!!! NO?

    THUS THANKS TO MARY  “THE WOMAN” BEING IN THE LINEAGE OF DAVID,

    JESUS IS BOTH THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN;

    UNIQUE WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF HIS SUPPOSED FATHER  JOSEPH CONTAMINATED WITH THE BLOOD OF JECONIAH, CURSED BY GOD HIMSELF!

    ALL POSSIBLE FOR GOD.

    JESUS IS THE MESSIAH AND KING BOTH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH!  

    GOD AND FATHER OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN 

    ONE SAME DIVINE BLOOD!

    THIS MY FLESH IT IS GIVEN FOR YOU….

    Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us,

    and the government is upon his shoulder:

    and his name shall be called,

    Wonderful, Counsellor,

    God the Mighty,

    the Father of the world to come,

    the Prince of Peace.

    THE MAN “JOSEPH” AND THE MAN JECONIAH  WERE BOTH PRESENT AND INEXISTENCE ON JESUS’ BIRTH, ESPECIALLY 

    IN THE GENEALOGY OF JESUS!

    GOD IS A PERFECT PARADOX!

    Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou be dissolute in deliciousness, O wandering daughter?

    for the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth:

    A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    March 22, 2024 at 4:20 pm#946202
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Who do you think the “our” is in verse one and what message are they speaking that is so unbelievable? Who is speaking here? Please don’t stop at one verse, explain them all and what’s happening. Singling out a few verses and saying it’s Jesus is nonsensical and proves nothing but cherry picking, place all the verses in context and explain what they mean. The same thing I asked you to do months ago before you ran from it.

    March 22, 2024 at 4:23 pm#946203
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: “when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name.”

    Me: I haven’t found this verse that says when marrying the daughter of a son less man the man being married becomes the “son” of that man. The only thing I found was when a man only has daughters dies, the inheritance would go to the daughter and she was to only marry into the tribe of their father so the inheritance would stay with the tribe and not transfer to another tribe. What verse are you citing?

    Not that having that verse will change anything because Luke has Jesus’ lineage going back to David thru his son Nathan. This is a HUGE problem because in I Chron 22:7-10:

    “David said to Solomon his son, “I myself had in my heart to build a house for the name of Yahweh my God,

    8 but it happened that the word of Yahweh came over me, saying, ‘You have shed much blood and have made much war; you shall not build a house for my name because you have shed much blood upon the ground before me.

    9 Behold, a son shall be born to you; he himself will be a man of rest, and I will give rest to him from all his enemies all around, for his name will be Solomon, and peace and quietness I will give to Israel in his days.

    10 He himself will build a house for my name, and he himself will be to me a son, and I will be to him as a father, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.’

    There’s a few things going on in this verse, the important part is verses 9-10; we find out it will be Solomon who will build the temple, it will be Solomon who will be a son to God and God a father to him, AND (proving the lie of Luke’s genealogy) it is thru Solomon’s the throne is established forever. Did you read anything about Nathan? The Messiah is to come from the lineage of David and Solomon; Nathan is Solomon’s brother. Once again another lie of the NT is exposed; how many lies can there be in the “infallible word of God” before it’s not considered the “word of God”, let alone “infallible?

    I’ll save the butchering of Isa 9:6 for another day.

    March 23, 2024 at 3:12 am#946204
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……You are right about where I said “Jesus was resurrected on Saturday afternoon” , what I meant to say was he was resurrected Saturday evening at sunset, my mistake, but non the less he was not resurrected on Sunday morning,  as you falsely present it.  You very clearly left out the rest of the sentence,  to conceal the fact that,  that sentence was addressing, that MARY on the first day of the week was  THE FIRST ONE TO SEE HIM. “AFTER HE WAS “RISEN”,  a (pas-tense) word.  The sentence structure was not addressing the time of his resurrection, at all, but the  one who seen him “AFTER”.  he was “RISEN” and the time she saw him.

    Jesus was cut off in the Midwest of the week , (Wednesday around 3:00 PM), was placed in the tomb at sundown Wednesday, was in the grave all of Thursday, Friday, and Saturday , he arose Saturday after sunset, which completed three days and three nights, being in the grave.

    DT, technically you could say he arose on Sunday, but not in the morning it was the night before the morning. When Mary saw him early Sunday morning Jesus was already “RISEN” , Just as it says.

    Peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

     

    March 23, 2024 at 7:46 am#946205
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: I would recommend you back up your claim with scripture

    Me: Isaiah 53:12 …he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    March 23, 2024 at 9:56 am#946206
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Psalm 22:16

    For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    ISAIAH 53 :5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

    Zechariah 13:6“

    And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.”

    John 1:11 He came unto his own,and his own received him not.

    But

    👇

    as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Amen!

     

    March 24, 2024 at 2:32 am#946207
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….A most “excellent ” post.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean……..gene

    March 25, 2024 at 3:23 am#946208
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: “I meant to say was he was resurrected Saturday evening at sunset”

    Me: I’m sorry your statement really ticks me off as you doubled down on the 3:00pm time frame, insisting that is when Jesus was raised up; and you now “meant to say” it was really “at sunset”?!?!?!?? In all the places I have traveled around the world 3:00pm and sunset have never been the same, including Israel. Is your new “claim” so you can still say it was Saturday that Jesus rose? The wording of Mark is “he was risen early on the first day” means he was risen on the first day of the week, which would have been AFTER sunset on the last day of the week. Either Mark’s a liar or your religion is; both cannot be right. To say Jesus rose on “Saturday” is our modern time frame and not the 1st centuries. Believe a lie or believe the words written; your choice. I don’t have time to argue the stupidity of this; believe what you are told to believe, but stop wasting time. This is the least of your worries as you defend this so called infallible book. Spend your time more wisely and answer these questions:

    Why is Psalm 16:10 suppose to be a prophecy pointing to Jesus; when it’s a Psalm where David describes God as his “source” for everything in life and in death.

    How did Jesus “stump” the Pharisees when he quoted Psalm 110:1? A Psalm that is written to and not written by David.

    Why is Isa 7:14 being taught every year as being a prophecy of Jesus’ birth? When it’s really a prophecy directed at King Ahaz.

    Why does the KJV change the verb tenses of Isa 9:6-7 to a future tense when they are actually in the past?

    Verses 1-18 of Ps 22 is David crying out to God because of his enemies; but verse 16 is a reference to Jesus. How?! Sounds like cherry picking!

    How many lies and how much deception can there be in the NT before it’s not the “word of God”?

    March 25, 2024 at 3:29 am#946209
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Me: “when there were no sons to preserve the inheritance, the husband (son-in-law) would become the son upon marriage to keep up the family name.”

    You: I haven’t found this verse that says when marrying the daughter of a son less man the man being married becomes

    the “son” of that man…..

     ME: Back to square one!

    Luke is following the Hebraic, traditional form of genealogies by listing only the male names in which Mary is designated by

    her husband’s name.

    Thus Joseph to Heli is

    HIS SON-IN-LAW

    You: What verse are you citing?

    1 Samuel 24:16  And when David had made an end of speaking these words to Saul, Saul said: Is this thy voice, MY SON DAVID…..

    1 Samuel 26:17 And Saul knew David’s voice, and said:

    Is this thy voice, MY SON DAVID? 

    DAVID IN THE ABOVE BECAME THE SON OF SAUL ONCE HE MARRIED SAUL’S DAUGHTER MICHOL.

    You: Not that having that verse will change anything because Luke has Jesus’ lineage going back to David through his son Nathan. This is a HUGE problem in I Chron 22:7-10:….

    the important part is verses 9-10; we find out it will be Solomon who will build the temple, it will be Solomon who will be a son to God and God a father to him,

     AND (proving the lie of Luke’s genealogy) it is through Solomon’s the throne is established forever.

    Did you read anything about Nathan? The Messiah is to come from the lineage of David and Solomon; Nathan is Solomon’s brother.

    Once again another lie of the NT is exposed; how many lies can there be in the “infallible word of God” before it’s not considered the

    “word of God”, let alone “infallible?

    Let start!

    Mary’s husband Joseph, who was Heli’s son-in-law,

    became Heli’s legal son to continue Heli’s family line.

    The point of all of this is that in the culture of ancient Israel, inheritance from father to son was so significant and essential that,

    for all legal intents and purposes,

     Jesus was Joseph’s son, even if He was not Joseph’s biological son.

    Then there’s also the case of a stepson who took on

     the LEGAL status of his stepfather.

    Hence: Jesus can be recognized as

     “Solomon’s son”

    through Jesus’ step-father, Joseph

    Matthew’s purpose is to prove to the Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews would have recognized from this genealogical list that Jesus had

    the LEGAL right to inherit the throne of David.

    Luke’s purpose was just to show from Mary’s genealogy that she came from the blood-line of David which showed that Jesus was a

    BLOOD-LINE descendant of David.

     

    The scepter and throne of David and Solomon, descendants of Judah, will come to the

    Messiah Jesus, who will rule and reign forever:

    Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not be taken away from Juda, nor a ruler from his thigh, till he come that is to be sent, and he shall be the expectation of nations.

    1 Kings 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the Lord forever.

     Isaiah 9:7 His empire shall be multiplied, and there shall be no end of peace: he shall sit upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom; to establish it and strengthen it with judgment and with justice, from henceforth and forever: the zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    The scepter and throne are Jesus’ legal inheritance, through his earthly paternal lineage.

    But for YOU who has a problem with Jesus’ not being a biological descendant of Solomon, through Joseph,

    the scepter also is Jesus’ biological inheritance, since

    He is a direct descendant of King David,

     through his maternal lineage.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    March 25, 2024 at 3:57 am#946210
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You quote Ps 22:16 as “proof” to who the “our” is in Isa 53:1 and the “message” no one would believe?!?! That makes zero sense! Or were you just spouting off verses again without explanation?

    How exactly does Isa 53:5 explain the pronoun in verse one?

    You then quote Zech 13:6; recommend you read verses 1-5 to put 6 into perspective and how do you get the Jesus out of it.

    1 “ ‘On that day a well will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and from impurity.

    2 And then, on that day,’ declares Yahweh of hosts, ‘I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and also the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness I will banish from the land.

    3 And then, if anyone prophesies again, his father and his mother who bore him will say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of Yahweh!” And his father and his mother who bore him will pierce him through when he prophesies.

    4 And then on that day, each of the prophets will be ashamed because of his vision when he was prophesying, and they will not put on a cloak of hair in order to deceive,

    5 but he will say, “I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the soil, for a man has acquired me since my youth.”

    6 And someone shall say to him, “What are these wounds between your arms?” and he will say, “Those I have received in the house of the ones who love me.” ’ ”

    If you’re going to say verse 6 is about Jesus, it’s no wonder he was “beaten”; he was a false prophet. Are you saying Jesus was beaten by those who “loved” him or where his “friends”? Did your eyes open? This section is about false prophets; and those claiming to be prophets are going to be beaten by their family for being so. The scars will be a reminder the man was a false prophet and a sign to all who see him he was a false prophet. Put this into perspective, when Jesus revealed himself to the disciples didn’t he show them his scars as proof of who he was?

    March 25, 2024 at 5:11 am#946211
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You can explain it away all you want, but the words written are the words written and you cannot change them. Luke claimed the lineage to Jesus came thru David’s son Nathan and not thru David’s son Solomon. That alone throws Luke’s account into the trash because Heli is a descendant of Nathan AND it was God who told David HE was establishing David’s throne thru his son Solomon. The Matthew account is thrown out because Jeconiah was counted as childless and the lineage thru him ended. Jesus, by the accounts of Luke and Matthew, fails to fulfill the promise given by God to David making both accounts lies AND Jesus not the Messiah.

    We cannot forget it was the spirit is who impregnated Mary and NOT of the seed of David. Once again, you are justifying lies.

     

    March 25, 2024 at 6:53 am#946212
    Berean
    Participant

    @DD

    YOU

    JESUS 👎

    ME

    JESUS 👍

     

    March 25, 2024 at 6:02 pm#946216
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Wow! You can’t even defend what you believe! You remind me of a Jehovah’s Witness repeating what you have been told to say and anything beyond that, you’re lost. You can’t explain Isa 53 since all you know are a few verses you have been told mean the Jesus. You cited Ps 22:16, but are unable to explain the context of the chapter. I laughed a little when you quoted Zech 13:6 knowing it’s speaking of false prophets and you claim it’s about Jesus, how poetic.

    Like I have said, I have walked away from christianity; so your thumbs up and down is quite accurate. I don’t “need” the Jesus, my source of salvation is not through any man, it’s through and by HaShem (THE Name – aka God). If you wish to believe you’re a filthy, rotten sinner as Paul says you are and because you’re a filthy rag, you need a go between to get to HaShem, you are free to believe that. I know I am flawed, but I also know I am created in the image of HaShem, but if you wish to be recreated into an image Paul says you are, who am I to stop you. HaShem says to follow HIS commands and turn away from sin; HE never said anything about a “mediator.”

    Berean, I have never felt more free since casting off the shackles of christianity; and can only thank this website for causing me to dig deeper into what God has to say. Sorry, but if you place anything between you and HaShem, it’s idolatry and what did HaShem say about idol worship?

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