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Is Jesus the Logos?

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The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

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  • August 25, 2024 at 8:08 pm#946751
    carmel
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: Didn’t read a word since you don’t know how to write in paragraph format…

    ME: DESIRETRUTH????

    This is the biggest lie I’ve ever read in these forums!

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    You: either learn how to properly communicate in the written format, and I will respond OR don’t, and I won’t. It’s that simple!

    Do you want me to believe that you don’t want to respond because of my writing format?

    YOU MUST BE JOKING!

    Let’s analyze things FROM OUR PREVIOUS POSTS.

    I start with My previous post to the last. It was more than double the size of the last,  crammed with capitals, and according to you; YELLING, POOR WRITING ETIQUETTE, AND IS EXTREMELY RUDE!!!

    How come, though you did reply, you never said anything  CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT???

    HMMMMMM!!!

    Now let’s VERIFY and go back to square one!

    Page 1182 is the page where and when you introduced yourself to these forums eighteen months ago! On that particular page, I posted

     EIGHT LONG POSTS in the same WRITING FORMAT etc, etc, etc, of which the last one was the first reply I posted directly to you.

    AGAIN NOT A MERE HINT WAS MENTIONED IN YOUR VERY FIRST RESPONSE, #942393, CONCERNING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!

    HMMMMMM!!!

    Now to page 1184  Post #942418

    You: @ Carmel,
    For curiosity’s sake, what do you do for a living (if retired, what did you do prior) and what faith do you most identify with?

    Not to sound like I am prying or to seem I am demanding of you information that I wouldn’t give. For a living I am self employed running a home repair business, along with a side gig making custom wood pieces. I came from a “non-denominational” (what does that really mean – who knows) church, with the last church I attended being Southern Baptist.

    The above is your first post sent directly to me eighteen months ago!

    By the way, just to mention, we are very, very similar regarding our earnings, THE OPPOSITE OF OUR BELIEF, as apart from that I do almost all what you do; I am precisely also a self-employed/general carpenter. 

    Now, before your introduction to these forums, you did see my writing format, and presumably, as you mentioned, for the sake of familiarity with all of us and our belief, you also did read some of my posts as you also did see and read others’, the fact that you said so above and became curious about me! May I ask you; is it by any chance because my writing WAS NOT IN PARAGRAPH FORMAT, hence, so prominent that you became curious about me, or because of THE CONTENT OF MY POSTS?

    NEVERTHELESS, AGAIN, YOU DIDN’T MENTION A MERE HINT REGARDING MY WRITING FORMAT!!!

    WHY DIDN’T YOU IF MY WRITING FORMAT WAS SO EMBARRASSING FOR YOU? WHY IT DID TAKE YOU EIGHTEEN MONTHS TO AFFIRM SUCH A DRASTIC DECISION?

    AFTER ALL YOUR TRUE AND VITAL INTEREST IS YOUR DESIRE FOR TRUTH! NO?

    IS IT TRUE, THEN, THAT MY WRITING FORMAT IS THE ONLY OBSTACLE THAT MAKES IT SO UNCOMFORTABLE FOR YOU TO READ JUST THIS PARTICULAR POST ONLY, AND THAT YOU BECOME EXTREMELY UPSET AND MOST IMPORTANTLY NOT READY TO RESPOND ANYMORE UNLESS I REFORM ACCORDING TO YOUR WISH?

    MR. DT. In this case, GIVEN ALL THAT I MADE CLEAR TO YOU ABOVE, THE WAY I SEE IT, you are too confronted with THE CONTENT OF THE POST, MORE THAN THE WRITING FORMAT. On the other hand, I agree,  thanks to the unrestricted HTML content, and ESPECIALLY, the way I intentionally produced and presented it to you in that manner, is so emphatic, expressive, and impactful. Thus, psychologically in general, apart from that it did hit you so strongly more than expected, FOR SURE NOT JUST DUE TO THIS POST ONLY, it did also finally leave an impact on your behaviour as it revealed YOUR DISREGARD AND REJECTING OF THE SPIRITUAL CONCEPT AND ASPECT OF THE OT SCRIPTURE, most vital CONCERNING GOD’S SPIRITUAL HIDDEN TASK OF REDEMPTION, well pronounced by Augustine hereunder:

     “The new is in the old concealed; old is in the new revealed.”

    God all-knowing, from the beginning of this particular world subject to death! Genesis 1:2

    The fact that PHYSICALLY, THE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN RACE IN FLESH AND BLOOD OF THE OT, SATANIC FROM EVE’S SIN is OBSOLETE! 

    THE FACT  THAT THE EGYPTIANS, SATAN, AND HIS DEMONS ON EARTH, AFTER THE JEWS, THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD, OF THE OT. WERE REDEEMED BY MOSES, BECAME ALSO OBSOLETE!

    CONSEQUENTLY, CHRISTIANS, THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD IN CHRIST, THROUGH JESUS’ FLESH AND BLOOD,

    THE TRUE BREAD FROM HEAVEN!

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    ACQUIRED ETERNAL LIFE!

    BACK TO OUR ARGUMENT,  generally, my post disturbed your mind so badly, to the extent, that you took advantage of the written format, used it as a scapegoat, and not only rejected the content of the post in general BUT ALSO OPTED  NOT TO RESPOND ANYMORE TO MY POSTS, PARTICULARLY AND INTENTIONALLY ANY PART OF THIS POST!!!

    MR. DT, THE CONTENT of this particular post, FOR SURE NOT YOUR FAMILIARITY, THE FACT THAT IT IS WRITTEN IN THAT KIND OF FORMAT WERE TOO MUCH FOR YOU TO CONTRADICT AND IT SIMPLY BECAME THE FINAL NAIL IN THE COFFIN FOR YOU. Frustrated and demoralized not capable enough to focus on the content, you opted to focus instead, both on me and on my writing format.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    LET’S REFER AGAIN TO YOUR LAST TWO COMMENTS:

    THAT IN THE NEXT POST, WHETHER YOU REPLY OR NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 26, 2024 at 1:51 am#946752
    Berean
    Participant

    EXPOSITORY (ENGLISH BIBLE)
    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
    LIII.(1) Who hath believed our report? . . .—The question has been variously interpreted as coming from the lips of the prophet or of Israel. The former view commends itself most, and the unusual plural is explained by his mentally associating with himself the other prophets, probably his own disciples, who were delivering the same message. The implied answer to the question may be either “None,” or, “Not all.” St. Paul (Romans 10:16) adopts the latter.

     

    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?  (Rom.10:16)

    August 27, 2024 at 1:45 am#946753
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……I agree with what you have posted, Isiah was speaking of all the Prophets, when he made that statement,  IMO , Jesus showed his deciles all the Prophets that spoke about him, Isiah was just one of them.  Luk 18:33……” then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold , we go to Jerusalem, and “ALL THINGS” (about his death and resurrection)  that are written by , “THE PROPHETS”, concerning the Son of man, shall be accomplished”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene

    August 27, 2024 at 12:02 pm#946754
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Accusing me of not continuing our “conversation” because I “don’t like your format”, I’m “embarrassed”, or am “uncomfortable” with the discussion couldn’t be further from the truth. I have asked you multiple times to change your writing style because fragmented sentences are annoying to following, writing in all caps means your yelling and is rude, to write in paragraph format for easier reading, the constant “I’m superior to everyone” mentality, while obnoxious, I can handle; but paints you as a self absorbed, know-it-all most will avoid. With this understanding, would you continue a conversation with this type of individual?

    Also, why do you believe your writing style is “emphatic, expressive, and impactful” and not annoying to me and why do you care so much that our conversation continues?

    August 28, 2024 at 2:23 am#946756
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    You quote man’s thoughts and accept that as proof for what you believe?!?!? You make my point and settle my case of christians believing what they are told to believe!

    Let’s examine this commentary to see if Isaiah is really referring to himself and the other prophets or “possibly Isaiah’s own disciples” (did you notice the indecisiveness of Ellicott). If the “our” and “we” are referencing Isaiah and the other prophets, it would mean Isaiah and the other prophets wouldn’t look upon him (the Jesus) because he had “no form nor comeliness” nor “beauty” that the prophets “should desire him.” This statement was made about 700 years before the Jesus; when would they have seen the Jesus to “desire” him? And if the prophets “envisioned” him as being the messiah, why would they be rejecting him since they are the one’s prophesying about him?

    Continuing on, it would also mean the prophets “hid” there faces from the Jesus. The Jesus bore the grief and carried the sorrows of the prophets (not all of mankind) because the “our” is the prophets according to Ellicott. Yet the prophets “esteemed him (the Jesus) stricken” “smitten of God and afflicted.” Does the “our” being the prophets make any sense to you?!?!?!? Remember these are prophets of God; men chosen by God to deliver HIS message and you believe the “our” and “we” are the prophets speaking about what they did to the Jesus??

    To understand chapter 53 one must being reading in 52:13 and then you would see it isn’t the prophets speaking, but the nations speaking of what they have done to Israel.

    Did you read any of those passages I gave you concerning “to whom the arm of the Lord has been revealed”?

    September 1, 2024 at 3:11 am#946758
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I belong to Jesus Christ and to His Father the LORD!

    September 1, 2024 at 7:44 am#946759
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??

    What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?

    Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?

    ME: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?

    How about these passages,

    Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Scripture tells me that there will be a judgment day, we read in Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Both OT and NT speak of a judgement day, there is a reward of eternal life or a punishment of eternal death given according to each individual person. In that judgement day, “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

    Think about it, when God brought curses unto adults who sinned like famine, did that not impact also innocent children? Surely the flood in Genesis, young children drowned as well.

    DT, God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.

    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    DT, your question, “what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?” is answered in the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead and sat him at His right hand where he is going to return to earth to complete all of God’s will, where God has given all things into his hands. Jesus says, “Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.” Our one true God gives our Messiah the name of Everlasting Father where the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that God called to believe in our Messiah and were given by God to the Messiah. The Messiah has the honor in his return to give them the promised Spirit, which will cause them to walk in all of God’s ways. God will be All in All, they will all be of One. 

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    DT explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?

    The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.

    September 2, 2024 at 4:23 am#946761
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    The holy spirit is not a third person.

    It is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ.

    So don’t blaspheme the Father the LORD and don’t blaspheme His Son Jesus Christ. Because the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven.

     

    September 2, 2024 at 4:42 am#946762
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: Did not the punishment given to Adam and Eve for their sin pass to their children and their children’s children and so on and so forth to thus include all of mankind?

    Me: So you believe in the doctrine of “original sin”; the belief sin entered into the world and our “sin nature” is due to the “fall of Adam.” Please explain Gen 4:7 “If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” Here God is telling Cain that “sin desires for you” and the next statement destroys what Paul teaches and by proxy, christianity. God says we are to rule over sin; NOT that we are slave to it, but have dominion over it. Sure, sin can be our “master”; but that’s because we allow it thru our decision making, not because God made it that way.

    What was the punishment given to Adam and Eve that has now transcended all generations? You quote verses from Exodus chapter 20 & 34 saying the iniquities of the father would be passed onto their children to the third and fourth generations, did you miss when God said “of those who hate HIM”? Sounds like if the children continue on in their parents footsteps, they will also receive the same punishments as their parents. To claim the punishment of the parent wickedness will pass onto the child even if the child turns from the training of their parents and follows God’s commands is wrong. God even clarifies this twisting of HIS words in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 18 saying you own your sin and will be punished accordingly, unless you repent and turn from it.

     

    You: God has not contradicted Himself you have just not applied Ezekiel appropriately.

    Me: Enlighten me; please explain how I am “misunderstanding” Ezek 18 and the relation to Isa 53.

     

    You: the Messiah shall see his seed, his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.

    Me: Again, the word here is “zera” and it applied to the biological procreation of plants, animals, and mankind and NOTHING to do with “believing” in a man and becoming a “seed” of his. This is religion, unless you can provide a passage in the Tanakh that states belief in the Messiah brings salvation.

     

    You: explain how, “make his soul an offering for sin” “he hath poured out his soul unto death” “he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors”, does not equate to a human sacrifice for sin?

    Me: I’ll ask again, when did God say human sacrifice was good and HE accepted it? Lev 18:21 “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.” Or in Jer 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.” But you’re going to tell me it’s okay for God to do it even though he commanded against it for mankind.

     

    You:The best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures.

    Me: Funny, coming from someone who makes up reasons to support what they believe (i.e. “virgin birth”). I have provided many passages supporting what I have written. I have given a list of passages concerning who the Messiah will be, what he will do, and does the Jesus fulfill any of it; and NONE have countered any of them. Here’s the link again 946290, explain when the Jesus while he was here fulfilled all that was written about the Messiah and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:

    “gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “ rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).

    “will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    September 2, 2024 at 12:39 pm#946763
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Can you provide a biblical passage to support that claim?

    And why at the end of Matthew does the Jesus say to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; I count three…hmmmm. Actually, there’s only God and no other; HE said so.

    Also, if taking God and the Jesus’ name in vain is the “unforgivable sin” because the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father AND the spirit of His Son Jesus Christ, I imagine most (even those who claim to be “christian”) are condemned to Hell as I haven’t met anyone who hasn’t taken God’s name or the Jesus’ name in vain.

    Basically, the only one’s going to heaven are infants and toddlers; but wait, they’re born into and automatically have a sin nature and haven’t “accepted” the Jesus into their hearts, so they’re condemned too.

    Who’s going to heaven? Please think about what you wrote and does it make sense.

    September 3, 2024 at 12:47 am#946766
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You: his seed are those that believe in him to whom God had called.

    Me: Hasn’t God “called” all of mankind? Ezek 18:32 “I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live.”

    God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    Since “the best way to disprove someone’s understanding of a passage is to provide them with an understanding that makes more sense that is backed by scriptures”, can you provide me a passage that states the “seed” referenced in Isaiah 53:10 are those whom “God has called”?

    September 3, 2024 at 2:32 am#946767
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….YOU SAID……God says to turn from your wickedness (repent) and you will live. I didn’t read anything about God saying HE was only going to “pick and choose” certain people that are to “live” because they “believe in HIS son.” If God doesn’t take pleasure in the death of HIS creation and told them how they can “live”, why does anyone need the Jesus?

    me….You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died ? Scripture say “all” have sinned and came short of the glory of God, ( therefore  all have died ). So from that , who has repented, seeing all have died?

    Jesus is the “ONLY” human being who never sinned,  you can’t find any other human in the history of the human race who has never sinned, and even he died, but not for “his sins” but because of the sins , this evil world did to him.

    Jesus was the “only” human who never sinned, he is the one who “demonstrated” to us all, how to have a true right relationship with God the Father, and it’s “exactly” the same as his.  All those who “truly” believe in him , will conform to his likeness, through the operation of God’s Holy Spirit, and overcome this world just as he did also.  There is “no” other way.

    Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death. IMO,  THIS IS NOT SAYING Jesus did it all in our place, so we don’t have to do anything, but he did it to “DEMONSTRATE ”  to us all, the “WAY” that,  we can all attain to the full measure and stature of Jesus Christ , by the exact same Spirit that was in Jesus Christ our lord> the result is eternal life,  exactly as Jesus now has.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

    September 3, 2024 at 4:26 am#946768
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: You believe God does not want us to die, right?, then tell us who hasn’t died? … Trying to do it another way will only end up in your death.

    Me: In the first part you claim a physical death; then at the end you speak of a spiritual death. Why are you playing ignorant?

    Why do you believe God is looking for perfection as the liar Paul wants you to believe? God knows you’re going to sin and if you do, HE says to repent, turn from it, and HE’LL remember it no more. I didn’t read anything about believing in a man as a path to forgiveness and salvation. You still haven’t explained why I need the Jesus since God has already given mankind a path to forgiveness and ultimately salvation.

    I’m still waiting for you to explain how the Jesus is the messiah when he never fulfilled what was written about who he is to be and what he will do (link 946290) and if you say he will fulfill it when he comes back, please provide the NT passages that state he will:

    “gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel”

    “rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”

    “will rule at a time of world-wide peace”

    “will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments” (observe the obsolete commands of God, hmmmm).

    “will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God.”

    September 3, 2024 at 6:32 am#946769
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @DT

    If you reject Jesus Christ then you are against His Father the LORD as well. Repent!

    September 3, 2024 at 7:31 am#946770
    Berean
    Participant

    @ DT and all

    In the Old Testament, the thought that the iniquity of the assembly of Israel was borne by the priests was not foreign…

    when we read
    Lev.10:17

    [17] Why have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place? it is most holy: and God hath given it unto you, to bear the iniquity of the assembly, to make atonement for them before the LORD.

    To become more familiar with the subject
    go to this link below

    https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/12119.221#221

    God bless

    September 3, 2024 at 11:02 am#946771
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Yawn, I don’t need the Jesus according to God; are you not reading and verifying what I am writing? I keep being told I need to “repent”; but no one can tell me what to repent of. I reject the Jesus because he IS NOT the messiah prophesied in the Tanakh. Prove me wrong!! I have given passages speaking of who the true Messiah will be and what he’ll do and none have countered it.

    VERIFY, VERIFY, VERIFY EVERYTHING!!!!! Make sure what you are being told is “truth”; does it align with the Tanakh. Read what I recently wrote to Jodi and Gene and prove me wrong! I know you won’t, because you aren’t strong enough in what you believe. You have a weak foundation in your faith and repeat what you have been told to repeat.

    You couldn’t respond to me asking you for a passage concerning the “unforgivable sin” by using God’s and the Jesus’ name in vain. Here’s a hint, there isn’t one because a man made it up and you latched onto as truth because it sounded good.

    September 3, 2024 at 12:24 pm#946772
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    Your point? And does this have to do with the “our” in Isa 53 being the prophets?

    September 3, 2024 at 7:01 pm#946773
    Berean
    Participant

    @DT

    My last post is related to Isaiah 53.

    And I have nothing more to say about “our”

    September 4, 2024 at 1:59 am#946774
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Berean,

    In what respect does the Leviticus 10:17 passage have anything to do with Isa 53? To say it relates with no explanation says nothing! How am I to know what you’re talking about when you never explain anything?

    Then refusing to answer who the “our” is only further proves how entrenched in religion and doctrines you are and how they take precedence over God, making HIM secondary. The real reason you “have nothing else to say” is you have no idea who the “our” is and are once again running away. How sad!

    September 4, 2024 at 2:16 am#946775
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……So you believe a person can be save, by himself,  remember it says…..”the soul that sins, it shall die.”, So when does this soul stop sinning?  Have you reached that goal yet?
    Fact is, you or no human being has completely stop sinning,  we all “still” come short of that goal, why?  Because in order for us to completely stop sinning, something must be added to our existence.

    Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what that something is,  God by his “Holy Spirit” must come to dwell in us all, or we can never stop sinning, and until that “fully” takes place no human will ever stop sinning .  Jesus “demonstrated ” , the “WAY”  we must be all truly be saved, and it’s not by our own human efforts, but by the power of God’s Holy Spirit abiding “IN” US.  That is what will cause us to overcome this world and its sins.  There is no other way, and Jesus “demonstrated” that fact to us all.

    But your self saving point is dealt with in scripture, “notice” What happens in the “millennial ” reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints.  Evil is removed from the earth and all the world is taught God’s ways for a thousand years. But what happens at the end of those perfect world wide ruling days,  when evil is reintroduced back into the world? Notice they all fall away and turn against Jesus and the Saints , why? Because they (the people of this world) never were converted, even though they were instructed for a thousand years in the way of God, but as soon as evil was released on this earth again, they all fell away. Why?

    God is proving by the millennial reign a simple,  but very important point, that no human being can “maintain” true righteousness on their own, even if his teaching and environment is perfect, he or she will always fell in the end, just as the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and the Saints shows clearly. that “true righteousness” must be “maintained” in a person by the “holy spirit” of God. The only ones who had the Spirit of God “in” them was Jesus Christ and the Saints who were ruling with him and when evil was released back on the earth , they were the only ones who did not fall away.

    DT…. You may think you can save yourself by you own self choices, but you will ultimately fail,  the “ONLY” way to true righteousness, is through the power of God, exactly as Jesus “DEMONSTRATED ” , to us all.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

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