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Is Jesus the Logos?

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The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

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  • March 2, 2024 at 4:00 pm#946108
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: Paul say that, “LOVE” “FULFILLS ” ALL THE LAW.

    Me: Gal 5:14 “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Don’t know about you, but when I read this it says by loving your neighbor the whole law is fulfilled. As much as you want, you can’t ignore the pesky word “neighbor.” Where do you read God in any of this? Is God now our neighbor?

    Then you have to jump back into “law” not justifying anyone. Still waiting for where it states in the Tanakh anyone is “justified” by following “law.” The only thing I found about following the “law” was it made one righteous. Not doing a very good job proving your point by constantly repeating yourself; give scriptural evidence the law given to Moses was to “justify” the obeyer. You end it with IMO; are we to trust your opinion as truth?

    You say no “law” could ever change the heart of a person; is following the law suppose to change the heart of a person? Doesn’t following God’s “laws” make one a “better person” or is the only way to be a “better person” is with God “in us”? Didn’t these commands come from God, so aren’t they pure and just? Didn’t Moses tell the people to obey God’s commandments, statutes, and ordinances and in doing so they would be choosing life? We must separate the nature of God’s commands from what man does or doesn’t do with them; God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    Paul’s a liar and manipulator and by following him you have been duped. Some more of Paul lies:

    II Cor 12:16b “Yet because I was a crafty person, I took you in by deceit!” Paul, being “crafty”, deceived these people…how?!? What did he just admit to doing?!?!

    Phil 1:18 “What does it matter? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed. I rejoice in this, yes, and will rejoice.” In “pretense or truth” Paul rejoices in proclaiming Jesus. The definition of pretense, “A false appearance or action intended to deceive” and he “rejoices” in this deceit.

    Rom 3:7 “But if by my lying, the truth of God abounded to his glory, why am I also still condemned as a sinner?” This is what you desire to follow??!?!

    You hate the Jews because they killed your Jesus; yet, claim to support them; but, reject their interpretation of THEIR scripture. Such a double standard!

    March 3, 2024 at 3:26 am#946109
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You keep throwing Jesus at me like he is someone needed to get to God, what did God say? I have been told to repent, but no one can tell me of what.

    Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11), a name that God said “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.” (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne. Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT. Another issue in Matthew is the reference to Isa 7:14 as being prophecy of the birth of Jesus; that is until one reads the entire chapter and finds out it has nothing to do with Jesus (more deception??). Let’s not forget who the writer of Matthew says Jesus’ “father” is – the “spirit.” Wouldn’t this make Jesus a demigod being conceived of God and woman? Since Jesus was conceived of the spirit, he couldn’t have come from the seed in the lineage of David. So much confusion or is it willful deception…

    Prove me wrong…

    March 3, 2024 at 6:50 am#946110
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    ME:  Your above statement contradicts scripture of the OT and it preaches self-righteousness which then you make us into our own gods.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    God created laws to reveal that man can do nothing of himself, we need God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Others have argued the same as you on this forum before an accused my position as to make us into puppets, but that is not the case at all. Is not man that of a body and a mind whose thoughts and actions comes through constant input to which causes influence? Has man not proven that we are ignorant, gullible, superstitious creatures? God does as He wills and when He choosing a calling it can not be held back as the works of His Spirit supersedes over all other forces of influence. 

    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

    Psalms 73:22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.

    Wisdom, truth, love, kindness, patience, self control, etc., ALL are the works of Gods Spirit.

    The entire world, every soul, would be exceedingly wicked and we’d all be nothing but ignorant superstitious idiots 24/7, living like cavemen, if it were not for God’s intervention and all the gifts that He has bestowed upon mankind. God is not just the source of righteousness but also that of wisdom and truth.

    God is the source, but if man had been filled with the Spirit from the beginning how would God go about proving that He was the source, might we have thought ourselves to be gods? How would God have built our trust our appreciation and love for Him?

    Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Paul tells us that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God and that the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, this is consistent with Ezekiel. Surely DT you don’t have a problem with Paul’s teaching on this?

    March 3, 2024 at 9:10 pm#946111
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi DT,

    You: Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11), a name that God said “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.” (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne.

    Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT.

     

    DID YOU READ IT ALL?

    ME: FINE! READ HEREUNDER:

     

    The descendants of Jehoiachin the captive:

    — 1 Chronicles 3:17 The sons of Jechonias were Asir, Salathiel, 18Melchiram, Phadaia, Senneser and Jecemia, Sama, and Nadabia. 19Of Phadaia were born Zorobabel and Semei. Zorobabel beget Mosollam, Hananias, and Salomith their sister: 20Hasaba also, and Ohol, and Barachias, and Hasadias, Josabhesed, five. 21And the son of Hananias was Phaltias the father of Jeseias, whose son was Raphaia. And his son was Arnan, of whom was born Obdia, whose son was Sechenias. 22The son of Sechenias, was Semeia, whose sons were Hattus, and Jegaal, and Baria, and Naaria, and Saphat, six in number. 23The sons of Naaria, Elioenai, and Ezechias, and Ezricam, three. 24The sons of Elioenai, Oduia, and Eliasub, and Pheleia, and Accub, and Johanan, and Dalaia, and Anani, seven.

     

    — 2 Kings 25:27

    And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Joachin king of Juda, in the twelfth month the seven and twentieth day of the month: Evilmerodach king of Babylon, in the year that he began to reign, lifted up the head of Joachin king of Juda out of prison. 28And he spoke kindly to him: and he set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon. 29And he changed his garments which he had in prison, and he ate bread always before him, all the days of his life. 30And he appointed him a continual allowance, which was also given him by the king day by day, all the days of his life.

     

    Jeremiah 22:24

    His grandson Zerubbabel prospered and ruled. In fact the same words God used in rejecting Jeconiah were deliberately used in establishing Zerubbabel.
    “As surely as I live,” declares the LORD, “even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah,

    were a signet ring on my right hand,

    I would still pull you off.
    —

    — Haggai 2:23

    “‘On that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the LORD,

    ‘and I will make you like my signet ring,

    for I have chosen you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”

     

    WHO WAS GOD’S SIGNET RING???

    WHO BECAME GOD’S SIGNET RING AFTER THE ABOVE DECLARATION BY GOD?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 4, 2024 at 4:19 am#946112
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    NOTICE Especially ……Ezekiel 36:27…..notice God says,  and “Cause You” to walk in my “STATUES” , and keep my “JUDGEMENTS”, and do them.

    Notice the word “LAW” , is not used there, why?, because by the way “law” works , can never make our hearts right before God,  Just as PAUL SAID……”BY works of “LAW”, (the way law works) no flesh shall be justified (made right)  before God.

    AMEN TO BROTHER PAUL, YES, We are made right with God in a “new and living way” , apart from the “works of law”.  

    LAWS AND ARE MADE FOR THE,  “UNGODLY” , To regulate their evil and unbelieving hearts.  To suppress and regulate  the “lusts” working in them.

    The Godly have no need for “any law” of “any kind” , because the Spirit of “The living God”, abides “IN” them.

    Your wrong DT, in more ways the you think, Don’t let, your new found pride destroy you.   REPENT!.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

    March 4, 2024 at 10:04 am#946113
    Jodi
    Participant

     

    DT

    YOU: II Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them that I might minister unto you; Paul tells the Corinthians he isn’t charging them for his “ministry” to them; he is being so gracious to the wealthier church in Corinth, but took payment from less wealthy churches so he wouldn’t have to “charge” them even though it was his “right” to do so. The church that could afford payment, Paul wasn’t going to “burden”; but the poorer churches, he’ll take their payment and calls it “robbing” them. Why didn’t he refuse payment? If Paul meant something else, “robbing” is an extremely poor choice of words; but I think he meant what he said.

    ME: So your perspective of Paul seems to be,

    Corinth, you’re so wealthy, your so cool, I wouldn’t dare ask anything from you, but get this, ha ha, I am here preaching the gospel to you, by the backs of those poor churches, yah those idiots I make them pay.

    Curious DT what you are working off from, did you find some doctrine that likes to take verses here and there of Paul and remove them from the surrounding truth so to slander him?

    Do you have any idea that Paul had asked and received money from them times before? In this light might you consider what might have changed?

    2 Corinthians 2:8 The Collection for the Lord’s People

    1And now, brothers and sisters, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. 2In the midst of a very severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. 3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the Lord’s people. 5And they exceeded our expectations: They gave themselves first of all to the Lord, and then by the will of God also to us. 6 So we urged Titus, just as he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But since you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in the love we have kindled in you—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.

    8I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

    10 And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter. Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. 11Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have. 13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”

    Titus Sent to Receive the Collection

    16Thanks be to God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel…24 Therefore show these men the proof of your love and the reason for our pride in you, so that the churches can see it.

    2 Corinthians 9

    1There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the Lord’s people. 2 For I know your eagerness to help, and I have been boasting about it to the Macedonians, telling them that since last year you in Achaia were ready to give; and your enthusiasm has stirred most of them to action. 3But I am sending the brothers in order that our boasting about you in this matter should not prove hollow, but that you may be ready, as I said you would be. 4 For if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we not to say anything about you would be ashamed of having been so confident. 5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brothers to visit you in advance and finish the arrangements for the generous gift you had promised. Then it will be ready as a generous gift, not as one grudgingly given.

    12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

    2 Corinthians 10: 1 By the humility and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you, I, Paul, who am “timid” when face to face with you, but “bold” toward you when away! 2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

    7 You are judging by appearances. If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do. 8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters. 10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.” 11Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

    12We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise. 13We, however, will not boast beyond proper limits, but will confine our boasting to the sphere of service God himself has assigned to us, a sphere that also includes you. 14We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ. 15Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand, 16so that we can preach the gospel in the regions beyond you. For we do not want to boast about work already done in someone else’s territory. 17But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” 18For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

    2 Corinthians 11:1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    16 I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then tolerate me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. 17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. 18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that! Whatever anyone else dares to boast about I am speaking as a fool, I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

    2 Corinthians 12: 14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit? 19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

    So what changed DT? 

    Let me highlight,

    8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

    12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

    18 Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

    14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you.

    DT you do realize that the false apostles are getting PAID right and what they want is the church’s possessions to serve themselves and they boast therein which is a slap in the church’s face, but they put up with it. What does Paul boast about as you slander him DT? He boasts about the great lengths of suffering he has put himself through in order to preach the gospel.

    What did we read in 2 Corinthians 9:2, Paul boasted about the giving nature of Corinth to the Macedonians and in turn it encouraged their giving.  But now he says he does not want their possessions he wants them, they have fallen unto sinful ways.

    What does it say when the rich church of Corinth gives donations also to false apostles, where does their devotion and sincere faith lie, do they have any at all or do they just have money to give away? Paul wants their faith, if he took donations without it, he would be just like the false apostles, the only thing he would be able to boast about would be the money itself.

    He specifically says, provided below in a different translation for more clarity, 

    12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.

     

    March 4, 2024 at 11:36 am#946114
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    I Cor 9:20-23 I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as outside the law (although I am not outside the law of God, but subject to the law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it.

    Now Paul is all things to everyone. The great pretender becoming whatever he needed to be to “save some.” Today we call that manipulation.

    ME:  

    What does Paul say just prior, 

    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

    “I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel”.

    Paul was meeting diverse groups of people where they were at and being respectful and sociable in their own element and then he’d cease opportunity to teach them of the gospel. So being polite should be considered manipulative?

    So we are to believe that Paul is manipulative and he  wanted to disclose outright his manipulation to the very people he is supposedly manipulating? Got it!

    March 4, 2024 at 12:38 pm#946115
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Gal 5:14 Paul says the “whole law” was fulfilled in one word, meaning the entire law, For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” I think he missed the other part of the “law” “love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.”

    ME: I am really curious to know the direction you are under, what you put forth is it all from your own accord or are you posting from what you gained from someone else?

    So what is your point exactly, you think Paul was not for the love of God, that he didn’t teach to love God and give Him glory and honor above all else?

    2 Thess 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    1 Corinthians 8:33 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

    1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    Paul put God above all else.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    1 Corinthians 2:99 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    The below verse is not from Paul but is a truth to which Paul knew and is to certainly be applied to what he said in Galatians 5. 

    I John 4:20 If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    Yes indeed, all the law is held in loving thy neighbor because anyone who has a mind knows, that if you do not do as such, then you are not following the law of loving God either.

    March 4, 2024 at 6:40 pm#946116
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    Me: God didn’t create laws that man wasn’t able to do, man chose not to do them and has paid the consequence for that disobedience. Read Deuteronomy Chapter 30.

    You: Your above statement contradicts scripture of the OT and it preaches self-righteousness which then you make us into our own gods.

    Me: There is nothing in what I said that contradicts anything; you obviously didn’t read Deuteronomy Chapter 30. It was Moses who told the people “I have set before you this day life and prosperity, and death and evil” to love God and follow HIS commands, statutes, and ordinances and in doing so you may live and multiply. If you don’t and turn from God you will surely perish.” In verse 11 Moses says “For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you or too distant.” It’s not in heaven or beyond the sea; but it’s in their hearts. What is the “commandment” Moses gave, “to love Yahweh your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments, his statutes, and his ordinances.” Sounds like what Abraham obeyed. The people had a choice to follow God and “live” or not and “die.” This “scenario” is everywhere in the Tanakh; the Israelite’s followed God and prospered and when they didn’t they “perished”, just as Moses said. Nothing in what Moses said makes anyone a “god.” Joshua told the Israelite’s to choose who they were going to serve. So mankind has a choice to follow God or not.

     

    You: God created laws to reveal that man can do nothing of himself, we need God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways.

    Me: Then you need to read the 613 commands God gave to the Israelite’s. Do we really “need” God’s spirit to treat people like people? If we need “God’s Spirit in us to be able to walk in all His ways”, I can tell you from personal experience there are some “christians” who are anything but “Christ like” and can confidently say there is no way the “spirit” is in them. If the “spirit” is in “christians” why can’t you tell the difference between the “christian” community and the world? And shouldn’t the “christian” community be “sinless” since the spirit is helping them “walk in all HIS ways”? When was the last time you heard someone talk about “running from sin”, like Joseph running from Potiphar’s wife? No, our skeletons in the closet are kept under lock and key so no one can see inside.

    March 4, 2024 at 6:41 pm#946117
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    The mental gymnastics performed to keep the lineage of Jesus from falling apart is amazing. Except Zerubbabel didn’t sit on David’s throne, he was the governor of Judah. Next!

    March 4, 2024 at 6:56 pm#946118
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: NOTICE Especially ……Ezekiel 36:27…..notice God says, and “Cause You” to walk in my “STATUES” , and keep my “JUDGMENTS”, and do them.

    Notice the word “LAW” , is not used there, why?, because by the way “law” works , can never make our hearts right before God, Just as PAUL SAID……”BY works of “LAW”, (the way law works) no flesh shall be justified (made right) before God.

    Me: First, look up the definition of “Statute” and confirm it’s meaning as “a law that has been formally approved and written down.” By using the word “statute” it is assumed the reader would know and understand it’s meaning as being “written law”, a “law.” Unless of course one didn’t know what the definition of the word is…hmmm

    Second, the phrase “keeping my judgments” also translated to “keeping my ordinances”, an authoritative command. Look up the Hebrew and be educated or look at different translations.

    Third, you still haven’t shown where in the Tanakh it says obeying God’s “laws”, “statutes”, “commands” justified anyone. Either prove the “law” was to justify the obeyer or admit Paul lied.

     

    You: LAWS AND ARE MADE FOR THE, “UNGODLY”, To regulate their evil and unbelieving hearts. To suppress and regulate the “lusts” working in them.

    Me: Prove it!! You still haven’t read one of the 613 “laws” given to Moses have you? From your statement the answer is an obvious, no! Explain what is “evil and unbelieving” or a regulation of “lust” to not harvest a corner of a field and leave it for the poor? I think you have a HUGE misunderstanding of the law given to Moses.

    March 4, 2024 at 9:03 pm#946119
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

     

     

    You: Jechoniah is listed in the lineage of Jesus (Matt 1:11),

    a name that God said

    “Write ye this man childless,

    a man that shall not prosper in his days:

    for no man of his seed shall prosper,

    sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling anymore in Judah.”

    (Jer 22:30) Did you catch it? Jechoniah is in the lineage of Jesus, but God said none of his descendants will sit on David’s throne.

    Apparently the writer of Matthew didn’t read his OT.

     

    DID YOU READ IT ALL?

    ME: FINE! READ HEREUNDER:

    You: The mental gymnastics performed to keep the lineage of Jesus from falling apart is amazing. Except Zerubbabel didn’t sit on David’s throne,

    he was the governor of Judah.

    Next!!!!!!!

    — Haggai 2:23

    “‘On that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the LORD,

    ‘and I will make you like my signet ring,

    for I have chosen you,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”

     

    WHY DID GOD CHOOSE ZERUBABEL?

    WHAT THE SIGNET RING MEANS?

    KEEP IN MIND THAT THE OWNER OF THE SIGNET RING IS

    THE KING OF KINGS! GOD ALMIGHTY!

    NOW READ AND CHEW:!!!!

    Genesis 38:And he said to them: Can we find such another man, that is full of the spirit of God? 39He said therefore to Joseph:

    Seeing God hath shewn thee all that thou hast said, can I find one wiser and one like unto thee?

     40Thou shalt be over my house, and at the commandment of thy mouth all the people shall obey:

    only in the kingly throne will I be above thee.

     41And again Pharao said to Joseph:

    Behold, I have appointed thee over the whole land of Egypt.

     42And he took his ring from his own hand, and gave it into his hand:

    and he put upon him a robe of silk, and put a chain of gold about his neck. 43And he made him go up into his second chariot,

    the crier proclaiming that all should bow their knee before him,

    and that they should know he was made govenor over the whole land of Egypt.

     44And the king said to Joseph: I am Pharao;

    without thy commandment no man shall move hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

     45And he turned his name, and called him in the Eyyptian tounge,

    The saviour of the world.

    And he gave him to wife Asenth the daughter of Putiphare priest of Heliopolis. Then Joseph went out to the land of Egypt:

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 5, 2024 at 3:26 am#946120
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Nothing in what you wrote supported why Jechoniah should be in the lineage of Jesus, especially when God pulled the kingship authority from him and his descendants and said he was to be remembered as childless (no matter how many kids he has while imprisoned). This would mean anyone born after him would not have rights to the throne of Judah; AND if his children don’t have rights to the throne, neither would the grandchildren. If you would have put on your reading and comprehension glasses, you would have caught the term “like” a signet ring; not that it was and scripture tells us he had the authority of a governor.

    You bringing up Joseph as a “parallel” shows you are grasping onto anything that would have the potential to support your “thinking.” Joseph was a prisoner raised second to Pharaoh; Zerubbabel on the other hand was suppose to be in the kingship of David was reduced to governor. Instead of one who was in complete authority, his authority came from a king.

    The writer of Matthew messed up…BAD!! Did you find all three “prominent” scenarios justifying Jechoniah being listed in the lineage of Jesus? The fact different scenarios where thought up shows an issue was known and Jechoniah shouldn’t be there; so at least three DIFFERENT possibilities where born to explain away why he is there. You can dance your way around this, but facts are facts…christianity falls apart when you actually study and test it’s words. Mind you, this is coming from one who had walked in it for 40 years.

    March 5, 2024 at 4:48 am#946121
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT you said…….Me: First, look up the definition of “Statute” and confirm its meaning as “a law that has been formally approved and written down.” By using the word “statute” it is assumed the reader would know and understand its meaning as being “written law”, a “law.” Unless of course one didn’t know what the definition of the word is…hmmm

    DT…….A statue is a written document formed by someone in authority, it does not become enforced as  a “law”, until it has been ratified by those in power.  Our congress has power to write statutes, but they only become laws  when they are ratified by Congress. Then the statue becomes a law.  (A enforced document)  Anyone should know that. You don’t call a written statue a “LAW”  until it has been ratified as such by those in authority.  .

    WHY do you think God wrote his  commandments on “Stone tablets ” ,  Does it not show that he was going to use “force” to cause his commandments to be kept by those unbelieving Israelites?   He forced them to obey him through “fear”, just as I have shown you as written in Ex20;20…….> “that the “FEAR” OF HIM, (God) , be before you eyes , “THAT YOU SIN NOT”.   It’s clear for those who have eyes to see.

    Again Paul was absolutely right in what he said…..>” By works of “LAW”,  (the way laws works), no flesh will be justified before God.”

    peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene

     

     

    March 5, 2024 at 4:17 pm#946122
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    First let me say I am very familiar with Deuteronomy 30 and I would like to connect it directly to Ezekiel 36.

    Notice the prophecy, God knows they will be given blessing and cursing, but what happens after that?

    Deuteronomy 30a;1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Let me highlight something for you, “And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them”. Mind you, this is exactly what the Apostle Paul teaches us. Sounds to me though DT that you believe in your own righteousness, something Paul most certainly did not, his hope was in the promised Spirit. You have not yet come to the knowledge it seems that just as the Messiah needs the Spirit of God living in him as Isaiah tells us, so do all of us.

    You give a point to me to which I have spoken myself to others and is a point that Paul speaks to as well. I know people who don’t know God and thus His laws, but God surely knows them and has blessed them in multiple ways with His Spirit and through that Spirit they keep the law not even knowing it. On the other hand, I know people who are baptized Christians who live in all manners of sin where God’s Spirit is far from them and they do not follow the laws that they know full well of.

    Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

    What do you suppose God’s MERCY on us entails DT? God gives His Spirit as He wills and if it were not for His Spirit given here and there upon the earth, we would be living in a world that would be nothing but wickedness 24/7.

    There is so much more to this conversation, which Paul actually gives amazing insight too. Are we not carnally minded creatures who need God’s Spirit?

    March 6, 2024 at 3:50 am#946123
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……another excellent post.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………gene

    March 6, 2024 at 5:24 am#946124
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU:

    Read Acts 15:1-32 and Gal 2:1-10:

    Paul goes to Jerusalem over a discussion concerning what the gentiles were suppose to do and the general consensus is the gentiles where “to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.” This was written in a letter to the churches. Now let jump to Galatians where Paul is recounting to them his visit to this counsel in Jerusalem and focus like you have never focused before on the words of Paul in Gal 2:10. What does he tell those in Galatia he was to do…“10 They only asked us to remember the poor.” Something doesn’t match. I thought the letter included some other items the gentiles where to observe and it wasn’t to only “remember the poor.”

    Staying on this letter Paul was to take to the churches, it was said “to abstain from food polluted (sacrificed to) by idols” and Paul teaches (I Cor 8:1-8) it doesn’t matter whether or not food sacrificed to idols is consumed. This is direct conflict to what was agreed upon at the council in Jerusalem. Paul is in direct opposition to the church leaders.

    ME:

    Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

    The context is not the substance of what they should teach, but to whom they should serve and as Paul and Barnabas went out to teach to the Gentiles they were also to remember the poor.

    We see this in the below passage,

    Romans 15:24 When so ever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company. 25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. 28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

    DT, you really want to assert the context of verse 10 has nothing to do with verse 9, certainly convenient for you to do so in attempt to slander Paul.

    As Paul travels to serve the Gentiles and James travels to serve the Jews, along their journeys they as well serve the poor, using donations from the churches to provide them with basic needs.

    Concerning 1 Corinthians 8, Paul gives us some common sense.  

    1 Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 2 Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. 3 But whoever loves God is known by God. 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 7 But not everyone possesses this knowledge. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat sacrificial food they think of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

    What is Paul teaching,

    An idol is nothing at all in the world

    There is no God but one, we have one God the Father

    Not everyone has this knowledge, and some people so accustomed to eating idols they eat of it thinking of it as having been sacrificed to a god, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.

    Food does not bring us near to God, doesn’t matter, as we are no worse if we do and no better if we don’t.

    You sin against Christ if you eat in an idols temple among those whose conscience is weak.

    13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

    1 Corinthians 10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.” 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.

    Do you get the common sense here DT?

    Idol worship is a sin and therefore worshiping idols by eating meat sacrificed to these idols is a sin.

    If you are one who has knowledge that there is only one true God, you also know that idols are fake, and therefore eating the meat sacrifice to an idol is nothing, to you it is merely just eating meat.

    When someone who is being ministered to, to come out of idol worship but their conscience still is thinking that they are eating to gods because they have not yet the knowledge that there is only one true God, you do not partake of the meat with them, such would be a sin, it’s a stumbling block to those you are trying to convert.

    Paul does not condone Gentiles to eat meat sacrificed to idols in worship to those idols, it’s a sin. If Gentiles are being ministered to, being in the process of a hopeful conversion, Paul certainly would not be condoning them to go feast with the heathen that are worshipping their gods through sacrificed meat, he would be telling them to stay away, not to partake.

    March 7, 2024 at 4:11 am#946127
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……DT, has lost his ability to “comprehend “, those thing it appears, by his arrogant, and hatred of brother PAUl, he has become blind to his words.

    GOOD POST, Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

    March 7, 2024 at 7:45 am#946128
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    AMEN Jodi and Gene.
    The OT without the NT doesn’t work.

    God bless

    March 7, 2024 at 8:17 am#946129
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Oops, somethings wrong with your statement…

    Let me fix it for you, “The NT without the OT doesn’t work.” Actually, does the NT really even work?

    How can something that came before be dependent on what came after? That was from a 15 year old…out of mouths of babes! That’s like saying the foundation is dependent on the house.

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