@DesireTruth

I mentioned the part of the chapter that was dealing with the topic of creation because that is what we were discussing.

Also I addressed your point about “wisdom” being feminine to tell you that just because Hebrew words have a gender for their grammatical construction doesn’t really mean anything significant when the noun is inani…[Read more]

@Lighten up,

Do you understand how grammar works? Quotation marks signifies speech and that speech is attached to the one who is speaking; can you explain why suddenly in the middle of the chapter there is a paragraph that shifts away from the original speaker to point to another in meaning and context?

Why did you ignore everything else written…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Let me just start here with my reply. You don’t seem to understand how Hebrew works when using gender specific nouns.

The Hebrew noun for “wisdom” (חָכְמָה) is grammatically feminine, but grammatical gender in Hebrew
belongs to the noun, not to the real identity of the figure being represented.
Hebrew routinely personifies…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

That’s an interesting interpretation of Prov 8:22-31; except there is more to this chapter than nine verses. Does believing something make it truth or do you believe what you believe because it fits your religious beliefs?

To understand these nine verses, one MUST start at the beginning of the chapter. Do you start in the middle of a…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Here is my clear statement about Proverbs 8:

Even if we acknowledge that Proverbs 8 uses poetic personification, the text still describes “wisdom” as something that comes forth from YHWH, exists before creation, is with YHWH before anything is made, stands beside Him, and participates in creation as a craftsman. Those are the act…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I believe that the “wisdom” in Prov 8:22+ represents the literal only begotten Son of YHVH who YHVH the Father identifies as the YHVH who all things were made through and for. They are united as one Holy Spirit that is sent to dwell in all true believers, bringing the fellowship of both the Father and the Son of God to them.

@Lightenup,

What is this being, according to your understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures?

There’s your misunderstanding, wisdom is not a “being”; wisdom is a characteristic. Wisdom is a gift from G-d given to mankind before G-d created everything, as Solomon writes. Wisdom in this chapter is personified and given man like qualities; does this…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Thanks for asking. Here’s the follow‑up question I’m trying to get to:

If Proverbs 8 describes a being who comes forth from God, is with God before creation, stands beside God, and participates in creation as a craftsman, then how do you interpret that figure within the Tanakh?

In other words: what is this being, according to your…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Please explain the point you’re trying to make concerning Proverbs 8. Make a statement or ask the question.

@DesireTruth
I hear what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to analyze you or your journey. I’m only trying to stay focused on this specific textual question to establish a foundation from which to build on.

You said the answer to all three creation questions is “no,” so let me stay with that one point. My goal isn’t to defend church tradition o…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Please don’t try to psychoanalyze me…it won’t end well 🙂

The “crux” has nothing to do with creation (although what I understand today is opposite of chrisitanity); the “crux” is the christian church lied to me for 40 years and I have only recently come to realize it. My journey started with asking my pastor questions to the poin…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I want to start by acknowledging something important about your story. You’ve shared that you spent forty years in Christian churches, raising sincere questions about the relationship between the Tanakh and the New Testament — and that your pastor and fellow churchgoers didn’t give you meaningful answers. I can understand how disco…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Your second set of “if you can’t prove the opposite, your wrong and I’m right” childish arguments.

Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?

II Sam 7:12 and I Chron 28:7 are the two passages I already gave you; unless you don’t understand the “birds and the bees.” Every person up to Solomon was c…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Your response is bewildering! You can’t support what you believe so you’re going to use reverse arguments to support it; because to doesn’t say it’s not there, it is?!??? A pastor tried this on me once; we’re adults, not grade-schoolers on a playground. Either you can support what you believe or you can’t; if you can’t, why do you…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that the Messiah must be biologically descended from Solomon, and that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son. But you have not shown where the Tanakh says either of these things.

So let me ask directly:

1. Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?
2. Where does the Tanakh say God c…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son, but you have not shown where the Tanakh says this. So let me ask directly:

Where does the Tanakh say that God cannot have a Son?
Where does it say God cannot beget?
Where does it say God cannot send His Son?
Where does it say God cannot reveal Himself through His S…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

OBVIOUSLY!!!! Jecohiah had his kingship removed and the line of kings ended. Read Hosea 3:4-5 where G-d tells Israel they would be without a king until the end of days (that’s a good one for a lat…[Read more]

@Lightenup,

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure.

How did I know you were going to say it’s a riddle! Why do you believe it’s a riddle? What if there isn’t anything mysterious about the passage at all and it’s just Solomon using wisdom to express the power of G-d that no man possesses, no matter the level of power o…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure. Agur asks who ascends and descends from heaven, who gathers the wind, who wraps the waters, and who established the earth. These are all divine actions in the Tanakh. Then he asks: “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

The “Son” cannot be Israel or Solomon,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

The Tanakh itself shows Solomon’s line collapsed: the kingdom split, the monarchy ended, foreign powers deposed kings, Jehoiachin was cursed, and no son of Solomon ruled after the exile. If “perma…[Read more]