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Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

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  • May 6, 2020 at 7:50 am#863731
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

     

    HAVE YOU READ CAREFULLY TO MY LAST POST
    ON THE FORGIVENESS …. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT

    May 6, 2020 at 8:30 am#863732
    Berean
    Participant

    WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS?

    why Jesus can forgive sins ?

    WHEN JESUS SAW THEIR FAITH, HE SAID UNTO THE SICK OF THE PALSY, SON, THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE.
    [6] BUT THERE WERE CERTAIN OF THE SCRIBES SITTING THERE, AND REASONING IN THEIR HEARTS,
    [7] WHY DOTH THIS MAN THUS SPEAK BLASPHEMIES? WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ONLY?
    [8] AND IMMEDIATELY WHEN JESUS PERCEIVED IN HIS SPIRIT THAT THEY SO REASONED WITHIN THEMSELVES, HE SAID UNTO THEM, WHY REASON YE THESE THINGS IN YOUR HEARTS?
    [9] WHETHER IS IT EASIER TO SAY TO THE SICK OF THE PALSY, THY SINS BE FORGIVEN THEE; OR TO SAY, ARISE, AND TAKE UP THY BED, AND WALK?
    [10] BUT THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HATH POWER ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS, (HE SAITH TO THE SICK OF THE PALSY,)
    [11] I SAY UNTO THEE, ARISE, AND TAKE UP THY BED, AND GO THY WAY INTO THINE HOUSE.

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/mark-2-7.html

    MARK 2:7WHY DOTH THIS MAN THUS SPEAK BLASPHEMIES?
    &C.] THEY TOOK CHRIST TO BE A MERE MAN, AND REASONED WITH THEMSELVES, THAT HE MUST BE A BLASPHEMER, IN ASSUMING THAT TO HIMSELF, WHICH WAS PECULIAR TO GOD: THEY SEEM ASTONISHED AT HIS WORDS, AND WONDER AT HIS ARROGANCE, AND TO BE FILLED WITH INDIGNATION AND RESENTMENT AT HIM; SAYING,
    WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ONLY?
    THIS WAS A GENERALLY RECEIVED MAXIM WITH THEM, AND A VERY JUST ONE. THE CHALDEE PARAPHRASE OF ( JOB 14:4 ) , RUNS THUS;
    WHO CAN GIVE A PURE MAN OUT OF A MAN THAT IS DEFILED WITH SINS, BUT GOD, WHO ALONE IS HE, (HYL QWBVY YD) , “THAT CAN PARDON HIM?””
    THEY EVEN DENY THAT METATRON, SO THEY CALL THE ANGEL IN ( EXODUS 23:20 ) , OF WHOM THEY SAY, THAT HIS NAME IS AS THE NAME OF HIS MASTER, HAS A POWER OF FORGIVING SINS; FOR WHICH REASON THE ISRAELITES REJECTED HIM AS A MESSENGER F9. THEY WERE RIGHT IN SAYING, THAT NONE BUT GOD COULD FORGIVE SIN, AGAINST WHOM IT IS COMMITTED; BUT WRONG IN CHARGING CHRIST WITH BLASPHEMY ON THIS ACCOUNT; BECAUSE HE IS TRULY GOD, AS WELL AS MAN, AS HIS OMNISCIENCE AND OMNIPOTENCE HEREAFTER MANIFESTED, DID ABUNDANTLY SHOW.

    That no mere creature can forgive sin, is certain: good men may, and ought to forgive o ne another, and even their very enemies; but then they can only forgive sin as an injury done to themselves, NOT AS COMMITED AGAINST GOD.

    THE MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL MAY BE SAID TO REMIT SINS MINISTERIALLY, OR DECLARATIVELY, BY PREACHING THE DOCTRINE OF PARDON, DECLARING, THAT SUCH AS BELIEVE IN CHRIST SHALL RECEIVE THE REMISSION OF SINS; BUT FOR ANY MAN TO ASSUME SUCH A POWER TO HIMSELF, AS TO GRANT PARDONS AND INDULGENCES, TO ABSOLVE FROM SINS, IS ANTI-CHRISTIAN, AS THE POPE OF ROME DOES; IN WHICH HE TAKES THAT TO HIMSELF, WHICH IS PECULIAR TO GOD; SO THAT HE, AS GOD, SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHOWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD, ( 2 THESSALONIANS 2:4 ) .

    NOR CAN ANY MAN PROCURE THE FORGIVENESS OF HIS SINS BY ANY THING HE HAS, OR CAN DO; NOT BY HIS RICHES, WHICH WILL NOT PROFIT IN A DAY OF WRATH, THEY BEING NOT A SUFFICIENT RANSOM PRICE FOR A MAN’S SELF, OR ANY OF HIS BRETHREN AND FRIENDS; NOR BY HIS REPENTANCE, FOR THOUGH THIS, AND REMISSION OF SINS, GO TOGETHER IN GRACE AND EXPERIENCE, YET REPENTANCE IS NOT THE CAUSE OF REMISSION OF SINS, BUT RATHER THE EFFECT OF REMISSION APPLIED; NOR BY HIS FAITH, FOR FAITH DOES NOT PROCURE, BUT RECEIVES THIS BLESSING: AND MUCH LESS BY GOOD WORKS, FOR THEN THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS WOULD NOT BE ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF GRACE; AND A MAN WOULD BE SAVED BY HIS WORKS, SINCE A PRINCIPAL PART OF SALVATION LIES IN THE PARDON OF SIN; AND BESIDES THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WOULD BE SHED IN VAIN. THAT GOD ONLY CAN FORGIVE SIN, IS EVIDENT, BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST HIM, AND HIM ONLY, THAT MEN SIN: SIN IS A TRANSGRESSION OF HIS LAW, A CONTRARIETY TO HIS NATURE, AND A CONTRADICTION OF HIS WILL, AN AFFRONT TO HIS JUSTICE AND HOLINESS, A CONTEMPT OF HIM, WHO IS THE LAWGIVER, THAT IS ABLE TO SAVE AND TO DESTROY; IT IS OF THE NATURE OF A DEBT, WHICH HE ONLY CAN LOOSE FROM. MOREOVER, IF THERE WERE ANY BESIDES HIMSELF THAT COULD FORGIVE SIN, HE WOULD HAVE ONE EQUAL WITH HIM, AND LIKE UNTO HIM; WHEREAS, “WHO IS A GOD LIKE UNTO THEE, THAT PARDONETH INIQUITY?” ( MICAH 7:18 ) . THIS IS A PREROGATIVE PECULIAR TO HIM, WHICH HE CHALLENGES TO HIMSELF: “I EVEN I AM HE THAT BLOTTETH OUT THY TRANSGRESSIONS”, ( ISAIAH 43:25 ) , BUT THEN THIS IS COMMON TO ALL THE THREE DIVINE PERSONS IN THE GODHEAD, FATHER, SON, AND SPIRIT. THE FATHER, HE HAS PREPARED THIS GRACE IN HIS OWN HEART; FOR THE MOVING CAUSE OF IT, IS HIS SOVEREIGN GRACE AND MERCY; HE HAS PROMISED AND SECURED IT IN THE COVENANT OF HIS GRACE; HE SET FORTH, AND SENT FORTH HIS SON TO OBTAIN IT, BY THE SHEDDING OF HIS BLOOD, THAT SO HIS JUSTICE MIGHT HE SATISFIED; AND IT IS FOR CHRIST’S SAKE HE FORGIVES ALL TRESPASSES. THE SON OF GOD IS CONCERNED IN IT: AS MAN, HIS BLOOD WAS, SHED FOR IT; AND THAT BEING THE BLOOD, NOT OF A MERE MAN, BUT OF HIM THAT IS GOD, AS WELL AS MAN, IT WAS EFFECTUAL TO THAT PURPOSE; IT IS IN HIS NAME THAT IT IS PREACHED, AND HE IS EXALTED AS A SAVIOUR TO GIVE IT; AND AS THE ADVOCATE OF HIS PEOPLE HE CALLS FOR IT, AND REQUIRES IT; AND AS HE IS TRULY AND PROPERLY GOD, HE HAS EQUAL POWER TO BESTOW IT, AND APPLY IT AS HIS FATHER. THE HOLY SPIRIT, AS HE MAKES MEN SENSIBLE OF THEIR NEED OF IT, HE SHOWS IT TO THEM, AND THEIR INTEREST IN IT; HE SPRINKLES THE BLOOD OF CHRIST UPON THEIR CONSCIENCES, AND DECLARES THEM PARDONED THROUGH IT; HE BEARS WITNESS OF THE TRUTH OF IT TO THEM, AND SEALS IT UP UNTO THEM; SO THAT IT IS WHOLLY OF GOD.

    May 6, 2020 at 8:46 am#863733
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

    Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 

    John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    Berean, the power that Jesus has IS NOT HIS OWN, it’s God’s power and all that Jesus does is according to him follow God’s command to do God’s will with the powers God bestowed upon him.

    The scribes denied Jesus they were ignorant fools not believing that Jesus was the Anointed, the Son of Man anointed with God’s Spirit for the purpose to execute God’s purpose. They did not believe that this man came in God’s hallowed name to do the works of God and save that which was lost.

     

     

     

    May 6, 2020 at 12:03 pm#863739
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour</span>, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.</span>

    Acts 13:23 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Of this man’s seed</span> hath God <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>according to his promise</span> raised unto Israel <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>a Saviour, Jesus</span>: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins</span>: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Ephesians 1:3 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Blessed be the God and Father</span> of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>he hath chosen us</span> in him before the foundation of the world, that <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>we should be holy and without blame</span> before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Col 1:12 <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>Giving thanks unto the Father</span>, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 

    Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as* we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>your heavenly Father will also forgive you:</span><span style=”color: #ff0000;”> </span>

    Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.</span>

    Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.</span>

    Berean,

    Our heavenly Father forgives us of our sins through the obedience of ONE MAN.

    That ONE MAN was the only mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure, an anointing, a calling to righteousness where God directs all his ways, and such is how he was able to be obedient. As no other received the full measure, all are justified through this one man, and their belief, because what God’s Spirit can accomplish in one man He can accomplish such in all.

    <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The END is God being ALL IN ALL. </span>

    We are to believe in Jesus’s words that the Spirit is life, the flesh profits nothing, and he says that his words are Spirit and they are life.

    and listen to Paul’s words,

    Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>the Spirit is life because of righteousness</span>.

    Galatians 5:5 For we through the Spirit <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>wait for the hope of righteousness by faith</span>.

    “through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

    Berean the message is that the law only made sin abound, it taught us that we of our own selves are not capable of following God’s ways. When the anointed Jesus came we learned that we need the anointing Spirit of our Father. We need the fruits of His Spirit.

    Our faith is to believe in the anointing Spirit that was upon the man Jesus and brought him life because it brought him righteousness.

    Berean, <span style=”color: #0000ff;”>Jesus is a man who was raised from the dead and received the promised Holy Spirit, given to him for all eternity, where he will forever walk in all of our heavenly Father’s ways.</span> <span style=”color: #ff0000;”>We are promised this same glory and we read directly of it spoken to us by the prophet Ezekiel in chapter 36. </span>

    May 6, 2020 at 3:08 pm#863744
    Togel
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said “The Spirit of Christ, meaning the Spirit of the Anointed, is the Spirit of God dwelling in Jesus’s spirit.”

    I am afraid this is your own conjecture… Paul never says that Jesus has two spirits: himself’s and God’s Spirit in Him.

    Read this:

    1 Corinth 10:

    1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
    2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
    3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
    4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

    Christ was already there when the Israelites were brought out of Egypt…
    And then Jude, wrote in

    Jude 1:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (ESV)

    Jude said that it was Jesus who led the Israelites out of the land of Egypt!

    The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit of God….

    I know that we, believers, also have the Spirit of God in us, but we do not become God and still do not have many of the attributes of God that Jesus had in His time on earth.

    May 7, 2020 at 2:37 am#863751
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Togel. ….that “Rock”  that followed them in the wilderness, was the Christo’s, or  CLEAR, the “ANOINTING” SPIRIT, OF GOD.  It was not the man Jesus, “the anointed one”.  

    Jesus said…..The “SPIRIT” of the Lord is upon me, because “he” (God) has “anointed” me, why?, to preach the gospel to the poor; “he” (God) has sent me, to heal the sick the brokenhearted, to preach delieverance to the captives; and recovering of sight to the blind, to st at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    Jesus was a “anounted” human” being, as those scriptures clearly show. He is the “anointed one” the Messiah.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    May 7, 2020 at 3:11 am#863754
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    YOU:

    You said “The Spirit of Christ, meaning the Spirit of the Anointed, is the Spirit of God dwelling in Jesus’s spirit.”

    I am afraid this is your own conjecture… Paul never says that Jesus has two spirits: himself’s and God’s Spirit in Him.

    ME:

    Here are some key scriptures for you.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Togel, we are JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus the Anointed, the Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a child of God. The very reason why upon his sending the people called him a Son of God, it was all due to the Spirit that was upon him where he was performing signs and miracles, and was full of grace and truth. 

    Paul also says in Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    Jesus has his own spirit, his own mind, his own thoughts and his own will. 

    Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith,Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

    Mark 14:36 And he said,Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    Acts 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Togel, Jesus having the Spirit abode upon him, an anointing, where he was then sent, is fulfillment of prophecy of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61. Jesus himself in Luke 4 quotes Isaiah 61 saying how God’s Spirit is upon him. 

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall MAKE him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him,Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, THIS is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Togel,

    First you have the son of Jesse, a human, a Son of Man, and THEN our One God The Father puts His Spirit upon him, AN ANOINTING, where this anointed man is then SENT out into the world.

    The Spirit bears witness to his spirit that he is a Son of God, and those that are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. This is the very reason why God declares the anointed Jesus filled with God’s Spirit without measure His beloved Son.

    That Spirit upon his spirit was a calling to righteousness, where in Isaiah 45, the LORD who created heaven and earth by himself, alone, says He raises the son of Jesse up in righteousness to direct all his ways for him to let go His captives. Why Jesus told John he needed to be baptized as it was needed in order to fulfill the prophecy concerning the son of Jesse’s righteousness.

    God holds Jesus’s hand and keeps him for to fulfill His covenant, for Jesus to be for a light to all people Israel and Gentiles alike. 

    Togel WE ARE JOINT-HEIRS with this man who was anointed in fullness with God’s Spirit where then God directed all His ways and Jesus followed in all his ways, condemning sin in his flesh. He was made perfect by his obedience, and by the obedience of one man we are justified. 

    This man died, but God raised him up giving him the PROMISED Holy Spirit. Paul tells you that Jesus is the son of David and is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection of the dead. Upon Jesus being raised from the dead prophecy was fulfilled, “thou art my Son, today I have begotten you”. Jesus became a firstborn Son of the dead, a Son of many brethren, begotten of God’s Spirit forevermore. 

    Ezekiel gave the prophecy of us being JOINT-HEIRS with this begotten Son, a firstborn of many. 

    36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

     

    May 7, 2020 at 3:14 am#863755
    Togel
    Participant

    Gene,

    As usual, you ignore the verses that shows that Jesus has a pre-existence, together with the Father.

    The verse by Jude is clear that Jesus was leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

    May 7, 2020 at 3:20 am#863756
    Togel
    Participant

    Jodi,

    I really pity you because you just ignore many verses in the Scripture that show that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.

    Example:

    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

    Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    Jesus is the only Son of God… there is no other. We are only adopted sons of God, because we have the Spirit of Jesus in us:

    Ro 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
    Ga 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Well, I guess I have shown you guys enough verses in the Scripture that you have intentionally ignored and overlooked in order to stay in your heretical theology. It is up to you whether you will repent and follow the doctrine entirely from the Scripture or follow your own conjectures.. man-made theology. In the end, each of you will have to account for what you believe in from God’s Words during His judgement. There is nothing more I need to say.

    May 7, 2020 at 4:29 am#863757
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Togel. …..please show us the word Jesus written in that text , it say the “anointing” that is what Christ means, the anointed one.  What do you think the word “MESSIAH ” means.  The spirit of God was on all his servants, Moses, the 24 Elders, Calab, Joshua,  Aron, and and many ot h ers c also, even King Saul had t h e anointing on him m but God removed it from him and sent him an evil spirit to trouble him, king David as God not to take his Anointing Spirit from him.

    To deny that t h e human man Jesus was also anointed with the Holy Spirit of (from) God is denying the truth of scriptures clearly shown us.

    Togel,  you can’t even start to understand unless you start loving the truth , and come out of this world’s false Christanity, that most all false christan (mystery religions)  preaches.  Jesus clearly said this,  “many” shall come in my am saying I am christ, and decieve “many”. he also said, “wide” is the way that leads to destruction and “man” go in threat thereof”, but “narrow” is the  gate and straight is way that leads to life and “few” their be that find it. You are in the wide path, repent and come out of it and find the “narrow” way, where only a few are.  Time is short Togel.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    May 7, 2020 at 4:47 am#863758
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    I do not ignore any passages.

    Yes JESUS is called God’s only begotten Son, JESUS was the only mortal man to have been filled with the Spirit of God without measure, and at that moment he was filled with the Spirit God declared “THIS is my beloved Son”. God had promised that He would be a Father unto David’s son. God’s direct word from long ago was that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God makes this human son into His own son. 

    Togel you seem to ignore and not apply scripture. We are joint-heirs with the anointed Jesus, as the Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God, such is exactly how Jesus is a child of God. You are told Jesus left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and then he was being LED by the Spirit, and those who are LED by the Spirit ARE THE SONS OF GOD. 

    Togel, JESUS tells you WHEN he was SENT and what he was appointed to do, deliver captives, set us at liberty. God declares Jesus to be His Son at the river Jordan at the moment His Spirit came upon him, THIS JESUS, THIS Son of God is SENT whereby because of his words and deeds that he does in God’s name through God’s Spirit he is persecuted unto death for. 

    Togel you seem to ignore scripture, Jesus died and was raised no longer a monogenes -one of a kind- Son of God, he was raised a first begotten of the dead, he was raised a firstborn (prototokos) Son of MANY. 

    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    JESUS is God’s only Son, I don’t change the identity of who we are told is God’s Son, you do Togel. The Son of Man of prophecy was sent to save that which was lost, that son of Man is David’s son who God promised He would be a Father to. Though Jesus was a Son of God he is said to have been PERFECTED by God having him LEARN OBEDIENCE suffering going to the cross. 

    Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Togel, God’s word of the prophecies of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 became true in the flesh of Jesus. The Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD rested upon him where he was SENT TO PREACH, TO perform signs and miracles, TO deliver captives out of darkness. JESUS was filled will grace and truth and the people beheld Jesus’s glory not because he pre-existed as God, but because of all that they witnessed this man do through God’s Spirit and God directing all his ways. 

    Togel, Isaiah 42 speaks of the son of Jesse who God anoints with his Spirit, it’s a calling to righteousness where he will be FOR A LIGHT unto all people, this is glory God tells Isaiah that He will not give to any other, it’s only given to a specific son of Jesse. John in chapter 1 speaks of this LIGHT how he comes to HIS OWN people and they reject him, which was also of prophecy. 

    Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Togel, Jesus didn’t PREACH God’s WORD and God’s coming Kingdom and that which was God’s will UNTIL he became the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit without measure. 

    Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

    The NAME of God’s only Son is JESUS, a mortal man whose GENESIS is given to you by Matthew, where his GENESIS is said to be from Abraham and David. Prophecy was that of Abraham’s seed the Messiah would come, and that of David’s seed from David’s son God’s Son would come. 

    Every time you read of Jesus as the Son of Man you are to recognize that he is the promised son of David of whom God promised that He would be a Father to. 

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    1 Chron 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him,Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 51 And he saith unto him,Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

    Togel if you do not see that it is the Son of Man, the son of David who is the Son of God according to God’s WORD fulfilled, which is God’s word made true in the flesh,  you are far from holding the truth. 

    May 7, 2020 at 4:48 am#863759
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thank you for those great verses, Togel. I understand your frustration and feeling that there is nothing more you can say. There is always more that you can learn here by defending the deity of Jesus and it can only grow you closer to Him as you dig for more defense for the hope that lies within you.

    2 Corinthians 4:6
    For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    12“While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests, 13at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me. 14“And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15“And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16‘But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

    Blessings, LU

    May 7, 2020 at 8:18 am#863765
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Since Jesus reads in all hearts, it is because he is God and without sin and for this he has the power to forgive sins against God and against men. If Jesus had sinned he would have lost that power, but glory to God, Jesus conquered.

    [6] But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    [7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    [8] And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

    May 7, 2020 at 8:51 am#863766
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Certanly we are forgiven by the sacrificed  blood of Jesus,  that is true. But look at it more closely , who is the one who forgives us, is it Jesus,  or is it God the Father? What doe scripture really say,

    John 3:16….‘for “God” so loved the world, that “he” gave gave his only begotten (at the time of when that statement was said) Son, that whosoever believes in him “should” not “perish”, but have everlasting life”. 12, For “GOD” sent not his son to condemned the world;  but that the world through him “might” be saved. 

    Now who sent Jesus, was it Jesus,  or God? Scripture say it was God who did, So who is the one that forgives us our sins, it is God the Father who does.. you people rob God the Father and pay Jesus, not understanding it was God the Father working in the SON OF MAN, JESUS TO RECONCILE THE WHOLE WORLD UNTO “Himself”. 

    The old saying, “Rob Peter, pay Paul, fit you people perfectly. IMO.  Jesus said clearly he could do “nothing” of himself, but t h e Father who was “in” him did the works”.  

    Haven’t you ever read where scripture say the God is the “only” savior’. 

    Let’s be honest here, you people don’t believe GOD the Father, nor do you believe what Jesus said either,  or you would know these things are true. Sad.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

     

    May 7, 2020 at 11:15 pm#863784
    Togel
    Participant

    Jodi,

    All right, I think I can say a few more words.

    You say that Jesus is a mortal man (“mortal man whose GENESIS is given to you by Matthew”, etc).

    On what Scriptural basis did you say that Jesus is a mortal man?

    Did you know that Adam was created IMMORTAL? He died ONLY AFTER he sinned.

    According to Scriptures, Jesus is sinless. Do you believe that Jesus is sinless?

    Peter said: 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
    Paul said: 2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Jesus himself said: Joh 8:46  Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?

    So, Scriptures clearly tells that Jesus is sinless. If Jesus is sinless, on what basis do you think that he should die? and so you can call him “MORTAL”? While Scriptures is clear that “Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death“? No sin, no death.

    Jesus was also conceived without sin because He is technically/biologically, NOT the son of Adam. At the very least, He does not have the Y chromosome of Adam’s. However, it is also very probable that God made the body of Jesus even without Mary’s ovum… so Jesus’ body is like Adam’s, a brand new man, without sin, without the original sin. That’s why Jesus is called the last Adam by Paul.

    If Jesus is a sinning person and thus mortal, He will die by Himself. And if He would die by Himself, then He would not have been able to die for us!! If Jesus sinned, He would have died FOR HIS OWN SIN, and therefore He could not have died for us! But no. Jesus would have never died if He was not killed! He was killed FOR US! He was killed BY US! By our sin He was killed. However, God is just, and therefore, the sinless, immortal man MUST NOT die.. because He has no sin! So Jesus is resurrected.

    Jesus’ case proves Satan’s guilt, because Satan has always been acting like the self-righteous prosecutor… acting as if he is enforcing the law of God. But here, Satan made the wrong step. He killed Jesus, while Jesus has no sin, and therefore actually does not deserve death. So, Satan is now proven guilty as the murderer as Jesus declared in John 8:44. Thus, Satan is now convicted and defeated. Satan is not the righteous prosecutor but just a murderer, and therefore will be punished.

    Jesus is immortal because he never sins. If Jesus never sin, then EVEN BEFORE HIS BAPTISM, before the Holy Spirit came down upon Him, Jesus already NEVER SINNED! Now, show me just one person who can remain sinless from birth to age 30! Nobody. Everybody sins. But Jesus is not. Why? He had not had the Holy Spirit when He was small, in your theory, but He was able to remain sinless. The only answer is because Jesus is divine.

    Jesus said that he could do nothing of himself.. now tell me, is there any man who can say that? No! All of us, each of us can do anything of ourselves. We can lie, we can steal, we can blaspheme, etc, etc. But Jesus could not. Jesus could only do what His Father does… and that is NOT SINNING. This also shows that Jesus is God. He is the Son of God from the very beginning… even before His conception as the son of Joseph.

     

     

    May 7, 2020 at 11:21 pm#863785
    Togel
    Participant

    Jodi,

    In the New Testaments, there are two groups of verses that describe Jesus:

    1. That Jesus is a man
    2. That Jesus is divine

    I, and all other Trinitarian Christians, have no problem at all accepting the verses describing Jesus as a human being: annointed, born as a baby, son of Mary, son of Joseph, called son of David, hungry, tired, tortured, killed, and you name it.

    I and all other Trinitarian Christians also have NO problem at all accepting the 2nd group of verses that tell of Jesus’ divine nature: sinless, later called Himself The Alpha and The Omega, and The First and The Last, and later called the Lord of lords and King of kings, saying that His Spirit and His Father’s spirit will dwell in His believers, etc, etc.

    However, you and your gangs here would only accept the 1st group of verses, and reject the 2nd group of verses. You treat the second group of verses by reinterpreting them or twisting their meaning or calling their translation incorrect, or simply by ignoring them.. considering them non-existent.

    I already showed you many of these verses, and many of them you just ignored.

    Be careful with your theology… repent and be saved.

    May 8, 2020 at 2:34 am#863788
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Togel…..We quote the scriptures word for word, you and the rest of the trinitarians here  add you own words not found in scripture.  You reject clear scriptures that show Jesus as “truly”  a “actual” “son of man” .  Even though scripture lists his genealogy all the way back to ADAM. Jesus seemed to think he was a man, saying he was “son of man”,  over 80 times in our scriptures. 

    You say you have no trouble excepting the truth of what we say, then go about denying them?  The doctrine of THE TRINITY is without a doubt the biggest “lie” ever taught in Christanity. 

    Peace and love to you and yours ………..gene

    May 8, 2020 at 3:11 am#863789
    Togel
    Participant

    Gene,

    Right, we accept ALL verses about Jesus being truly a son of man and more than that, but also THE Son of Man.. if you know what that is!

    Trinitarians believe that Jesus is FULLY MAN and also FULLY GOD, which fits the ENTIRE Scripture.

    No, I never say that I have no trouble accepting WHAT YOU SAY….. never. I say I have no problem accepting all the verses which say that Jesus is a human being… but what you say is incorrect regarding this, because your logic is this:

    IF JESUS IS A MAN THEN HE CANNOT BE GOD! Jesus’ being a human excludes the possibility that He is God.

    This logic is typical of heretics, including Muslims… I have debated so many Muslims who always argue that Jesus is a mere man… however, debating with them regarding the deity of Jesus is quite easier than it is with you, because you know the Scriptures better, and already have established ways to twist them and ignore them, while Muslims simply follow their Holy Book that denies Jesus’ deity.

    Example, you never address this verse:

    Ga 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Which shows that Jesus has His own Spirit, who dwells in the billions of believers.. so Jesus’ Spirit is definitely omnipresent! Yes, the Scriptures also tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who dwells in us! Also Paul again wrote:

    Ro 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

    The Spirit that dwells in the believers is the Spirit of God! So, the Spirit of God’s Son, who is Jesus, is omnipresent, dwelling in the believers’ hearts, and that Spirit is also called the Spirit of God. And we all know that the Spirit of God is eternal! And so Jesus’ Spirit is eternal, and so Jesus is eternal!

    This is actually very clear.. but you just ignore it or twist it. And you call me ignoring verses? Or adding words? Which words did I add?

    May 8, 2020 at 7:35 am#863794
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Puisque Jésus lit dans tous les cœurs, c’est parce qu’il est Dieu et sans péché et pour cela il a le pouvoir de pardonner les péchés contre Dieu et contre les hommes. Si Jésus avait péché, il aurait perdu ce pouvoir, mais la gloire à Dieu, Jésus a vaincu.

    [6] Mais certains scribes étaient assis là, et raisonnaient dans leur cœur,
    [7] Pourquoi cet homme parle-t-il ainsi des blasphèmes? qui peut pardonner les péchés mais Dieu seul?
    [8] Et aussitôt que Jésus s’aperçut dans son esprit qu’ils raisonnaient ainsi en eux-mêmes, il leur dit: Pourquoi raisonnez-vous ces choses dans votre cœur?

    May 8, 2020 at 7:47 am#863795
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Since Jesus reads in all hearts, it is because he is God and without sin and for this he has the power to forgive sins against God and against men. If Jesus had sinned, he would have lost that power, but the glory to God, Jesus conquered.

    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
    [11] I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

     

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