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John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • April 16, 2012 at 4:08 am#292716
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,15:06)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:00)
    Hi Frank,
    No. Asleep.
    And alive to God.
    The Living Spirit does not die


    Nick,

    So, you are one who believe in the “immortal soul” doctrine?

    THE SOUL OF MAN
    By Voy Wilks
    1970, Revised 1993

    Does man have an immortal soul dwelling within him? What happens to the soul when a man dies? Can a soul die? Or can it be that man IS a soul? Let us examine the Scriptures and learn, if possible, the correct answer to these questions. This is a biblical topic; therefore we should learn what the Sacred Writings teach.
    First: Why Read the Old Testament?

    Some kindly people have suggested we, the Assembly of Yahweh (7th day), read the Old Testament too much. “Why not read more in the New Testament?” To answer that, let me point out:

    1. ALL Scripture (both Old and New), if given by inspiration of Yahweh, is profitable, therefore we should read both the Old and the New.
    2. Old Testament Scriptures are many more in number, so naturally these require more reading time than do New Testament Scriptures. In most Bibles, the Old Testament consists of approximately 840 pages, while the New Testament consists of only about 240 pages.
    3. The Apostles PROVED their doctrine by Old Testament Scriptures.
    4. Of more importance, Yahshua the Messiah taught his disciples from the Old Scriptures. If we revere the Savior, we as his disciples, should revere the Holy Scriptures which he revered. He too, proved his doctrine by the ancient Scriptures, as is indicated in the following quotation:

    “Man shall not live by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF YAHWEH” (Deut. 8:3; Mt. 4:4, KJV). This includes Old Testament Scriptures in general and the Ten Commandments in particular. Paul agrees:

    ” … from a child thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES which are able to make thee wise UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Messiah Yahshua. ALL Scripture given by inspiration of Yahweh is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, and for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: that the man of Yahweh may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto ALL good works” (2 Tim. 3:15-17.

    Did Paul refer to New Testament writings? No. He referred to the Torah (the Books of Moses), the prophets, the Psalms, and the “Writings” (the Old Testament). Be assured that Paul did not refer to his own writings as “Holy Scriptures.” Instead, he referred to the Old Testament. So let us remember: Paul says Old Testament Scriptures are profitable for establishing DOCTRINE, therefore we too are justified in searching the Old Scriptures to learn what is true. To better understand about the Soul of Man, let us now consult Scriptures which deal with the soul, and discover how the word is used.

    Old Testament Evidence:
    Astonishing Revelations About the Soul
    Gen 46:18 -Souls (KJV) Persons (RSV)
    Lev. 5:1,2 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:4 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV).
    Lev. 5:17 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV).
    Lev. 7:21 -Souls (KJV) Person (RSV).
    Lev. 7:27 -Souls (KJV) Whoever (RSV).
    Lev. 20: 25 -Souls (KJV) Yourselves (RSV).
    Lev. 22:11 -Souls (KJV) Slave (RSV).
    Lev. 23:32 -Souls (KJV) Yoursleves (RSV).
    Num. 30:4 -Souls (KJV) Herself (RSV).

    Young's Concordance: When we look at the word SOUL in Young's Concordance, we find that the Hebrew word is NEPHESH, meaning “animal soul.” Here are some very revealing ways NEPHESH is translated in the King James Bible.
    Translated No. of Times Translated No. of Times
    Appetite 4 Soul 428
    Beast 2 Thing 2
    Body 2 Lust 2
    Body 7 Creature 9
    Dead (body) 8 Own 1
    Desire 5 Will 4
    Man 3 Fish 1
    Mind 15 Life 119
    Person 30 Self 19

    Strong's Concordance: “nephesh #5315, a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality, etc.”

    The Nephesh (Soul, Life) Is In the Blood

    As noted above, Nephesh is translated SOUL 428 times. However, it is translated LIFE 119 times. Let us at this time review some of the Scriptures in which Nephesh (soul) is translated life in the KJV.

    Gen. 9:3-5. “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meet [food] for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul] thereof, WHICH IS THE BLOOD thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your BLOOD of your LIVES [nephesh # 5315, soul] will I require: at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul] of man.”

    Gen. 19:17-19. “Escape for you LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul]; look not behind thee, … lest thou be consumed. … Behold now, … though has magnified thy mercy which thou hast showed unto me in saving my LIFE” [nephesh #5315, soul].

    Lev. 17:10-15. “And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the STRANGERS that sojourn among you, that EATETH ANY BLOOD; I will even set my face against that SOUL [nephesh] that EATETH BLOOD, and cut him off from among his people. For the LIFE [nephesh, soul] IS IN THE BLOOD: and I have given it to you upon the alter to, make an atonement for your SOULS [nephesh]: for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the SOUL [nephesh]. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No SOUL [nephesh] of you shall eat BLOOD, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. … For it is the LIFE [nephesh, soul] of ALL FLESH; the BLOOD of it is for the LIFE [NEPHESH, SOUL] IS THE BLOODA thereof: … And every SOUL [nephesh] that eateth …” (KJV).

    Num. 35:31. “Moreover you shall accept no ransom for the LIFE [nephesh, soul] of the murderer, … he shall be put to death” (RSV)

    Deut. 12:23. “Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: FOR the BLOOD IS the LIFE [nephesh, soul] with the Flesh” (KJV)

    1 Sam 19:11. ” … and Michal … told him, If thou save not thy LIFE [nephesh, soul] tonight, tomorrow thou shalt be slain.”

    Job 2:6. “And Yahweh said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but SAVE HIS LIFE [nephesh, soul].” What is this? Satan, “a soul saver.” This seems humorous, but it helps in understanding the word nephesh (soul).

    Isa. 53:12. ” … because he hath POURED OUT HIS SOUL unto DEATH.”

    ECCL. 9:5. The DEAD KNKOW NOTHING at all. This brings to mind an illustration someone made regarding the common view that the DEAD are WISE and know EVERYTHING. Reason: because the “immortal soul” has gone to heaven. He said, “Hit a man on the head with a half pound hammer, and immediately he knows nothing at all because he becomes unconscious. But, hit a man on the head with a 10 pound hammer, and soon he knows EVERYTHING because he is dead. Foolish? Yes, indeed. But it shows the folly of believing the dead know everything, and are more ACUTELY ALIVE than the living ? than before death overtook them.

    Souls [Nephesh] Equal Persons

    It is interesting to notice that many Scriptures in which the King James Version uses the word SOUL, other versions use words which better convey the true meaning: PERSON, anyone, yourself, yourselves, he who, etc. For your convenience, here are listed a few of these Scriptures from both the KJV and the RSV.
    Gen 46:18 -Souls (KJV) Persons (RSV)
    Lev. 5:1,2 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:4 -Soul (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:17 -Soul (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 7:21 -Soul (KJV) Person (RSV)
    Lev. 7:27 -Soul (KJV) Whoever (RSV)
    Lev. 20:25 -Soul (KJV) Yourselves (RSV)
    Lev. 22:11 -Soul (KJV) Slave (RSV).
    Lev. 23:32 -Soul (KJV) Yourselves (RSV).
    Num. 30:4 -Soul (K
    JV) Herself (RSV).

    NEPHESH (#5315, soul) is also translated “dead,” meaning “dead person” in the following Scriptures: Lev. 19:28; 21:1; 22-4; Num. 5:2; 6:11.

    Living Creatures: Fishes, Bugs, and Animals Are Souls (Nephesh)

    The Hebrew word NEPHESH (#5315) is in the King James Version translated LIVING CREATURE nine times. The interesting thing is, these “creatures” [nephesh, souls] are bugs, fishes, birds, and animals:

    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = fishes in the sea and birds of the air (Gen. 1:21).
    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = cattle of the field (Gen. 1:24).
    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = beasts of the earth (Gen. 1:24).
    * Adam named every LIVING CREATURES [nephesh, soul] (Gen. 2:19).
    * Every LIVING CREATURE [nephesh, soul] came out of the ark (Gen. 9:10, 12).
    * The rainbow was a covenant between YHWH and LIVING CREATURES [nephesh, souls] (Gen. 9:15, 16).
    * Man's food consists of living creatures (nephesh, souls); i.e. animals, fowls, and bugs, which are in the seas, or which creep upon the earth (Lev. 11:46).

    As you will remember, several Scriptures show that the LIFE is in the BLOOD. The blood itself is referred to as the soul. DEAD BODIES also, are souls. It is now easy to see that a breathing creature is a LIVING soul; and one who has breathed his last, is a DEAD soul. These Scriptures from the Old Testament are more than enough to show that the words SOUL and LIFE are often used interchangeable. The SOUL can refer to the whole person, the physical person, and to the BLOOD within a person. The soul can die from various causes. Again, let us stress these points:

    1. The soul [nephesh] is the person, the human being (mail or female), and the living creatures.
    2. The soul [nephesh] can die; can be killed by various means; by the sword, lack of food etc.
    3. The LIFE [nephesh] is in the blood
    4. Death results when the blood is poured out of the soul.
    5. A dead body is a dead soul [nephesh].

    New Testament Evidence

    Psuche = Life (Animal life, breath {Young's Concordance})

    The Greek word in the New Testament from which “soul” is translated is PSUCHE. It appears in the Greek New Testament 103 times and, in the KJV, was translated: SOUL, 58 times; LIFE, 40 times; HEART, 1 time; and MIND, 3 times.

    Lk. 2:35 – A SWORD shall pierce thy soul (psuche obviously = body).

    Lk. 12:19 – His soul (psuche = person) enjoyed eating, drinking, and making merry.

    Lk. 12:20 – His soul (psuche = life) would be required of him that very night.

    Luke 12:19, 20. “And I will say to my soul [psuche], soul [psuche] thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But El said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul [psuche] shall be required of thee: …”

    We see in the New Testament, just as in the Old, that the soul enjoys eating and drinking. These verses could read as follows with no change in meaning:

    “I will say to myself: Man, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry. But El said to him, 'Fool! This night your life will be required of you.'”

    The same Greek word (psuche, soul) appears as life in the following verses:

    Yahshua said, “Take no thought for your life {psuche}, what you shall eat; … The life {psuche} is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.”

    The Psuche (Soul) Can be Destroyed (Die)

    Mt. 3:10. “And now the axe is laid unto the Root of the trees; therefore, every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire”. Notice: it is the tree that is hewn down and BURNED, not just the FRUIT, of the tree.

    Mt. 3:12. “The chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.” So it is not that the wicked souls will only be SEPARATED from Yahweh. They will be DESTROYED in the fire ­­- BURNED UP – annihilated, cease to exist.

    Acts 3:23. The soul that does not hear, shall be destroyed. The New Scriptures, then, agrees with the Old: The soul that sinneth, it shall die; be destroyed. Not only will the soul be separated from Yahweh, but the soul will DIE – cease to live.

    James 5:20. A formula for saving a soul (a person) from death.

    1 Pet. 3:20. Eight souls [persons, RSV] were saved by water. This refers to Noah and his family; physical human beings.

    Rev. 16:3. The SOULS {psuche} in the sea died because the sea became like the blood of a dead man. (The R.S.V. reads, “EVERY LIVING THING died that was in the sea”). This includes the fishes (souls).

    Rev 18:3-14. Tells about the souls (PSUCHE) lusting after trade goods, food, etc. This clearly shows the soul (the person) is not IMMORTAL. Man is very MORTAL, very human, and is dependent upon food, raiment, and shelter – the blessings of the earth.

    Does the Soul Leave the Body At Death?

    Some believe the souls of the righteous leave the body at death and go to heaven, and the souls of the wicked leave the body at death and go to hell. Is this really true? Let us consider: Yahshua was without sin, a righteous man. If righteous souls go to heaven at death, then Yahshua's soul should by all means have gone to heaven when he died.

    Again: If there ever was a soul which should have gone to heaven at death, then Yahshua's soul should have made the trip. Did this happen? No. Scriptures indicate Yahshua's soul went to hell – for three days and three nights (Acts 2:27-31). It did not go to heaven. Instead, it went to hell – the grave. This illustrates two significant points:

    1. The souls of the righteous do not go to heaven when the person dies.
    2. Generally speaking, the SOUL and the PERSON are one and the same thing. A “living soul” is a living person, and a “dead soul” is a dead person.

    The Good News is: Yahshua's soul (psuche) was not left in hell (Acts 2:31). He came forth from the grave after three days and three nights. Praise Yahweh! But to continue:

    Mt. 2:20. Arise, … for they are dead who sought the young child’s LIFE (psuche, soul).

    Mt. 16:25, 26. “For whoever will save his LIFE (psuche) shall lose it: and whoever shall loose his LIFE (psuche)? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his SOUL (psuche).”

    Both “LIFE” and “SOUL” appear twice in these verses. All four are translated from the same Greek word, PSUCHE. Here, “life” and “soul” can be interchanged with no loss of meaning. In fact, all are translated “life” in the following versions:
    American Standard Version Jerusalem Bible
    Berkeley Version Jewish New Testament
    Bible in Basic English New Revised Standard Version
    Concordant Version New World Translation
    Diaglott Revised Standard Version
    Emphasized Bible The Sacred Scriptures, Bethel Edition
    Good News Bible Weymouth Version

    We have seen people die; therefore we have seen with our own eyes that death is final. There is no part of man which lives on. All is lost; a total, TOTAL LOSS. One moment there is life, breath, thought, action. The next moment there I no breath, no thought, no life, no action. LIFE is replaced by Death. We have seen it, so we know, even without any outside help that were it not for the heavenly Father, death is the end.

    In fact, that is why Yahshua was offered as a ransom for us – because we DO NOT have immortality (Ezek. 18:4, 20). Immortality (everlasting life) is a gift of Yahweh (Rom. 6:23); a reward promised to the faithful (Rev. 2A:7, 11). We are to “seek for glory, honor, and immortality, eternal life” (Rom 2:7). We do not have immortality yet, but Yahshua has brought it to light; has made it known; has revealed it to us (2 Tim. 1:10). Therefore we now see how to achieve immortality.

    Again, man does not at this time possess immortality. Never once does the Bible speak of the “immortal soul.” These two words never appear together. Paul wrote that only Yahweh has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16). Therefore, no human being living today possesses immortality. We put on immortali
    ty only at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:42-54).

    Summary

    We have found the Scriptures teach:

    1. Soul and person are one and the same thing, generally speaking.
    2. The life of the soul is the blood
    3. When the blood is poured out, the result is death to the soul.
    4. A living being is a living soul; a dead person is a dead soul.
    5. When a person dies, the soul does not go to heaven.
    6. A person (a human being) IS a soul, therefore:
    7. A soul can die, give up life, cease to exist.

    Death is NOT life. Death is the opposite of life. In a moment of time a vital, living, intelligent being can be changed to a lifeless, dead body which knows nothing at all. It is the same with humans and with animals. All die and go to the same place – we return to dust, as Scriptures indicate:

    “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beat … All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:19-20).

    Response to Objections

    Gen. 35:18. Perhaps some will refer to the death of Rachel. When we understand about the “soul” there is no problem or contradiction here. We have already seen that the soul refers to the life, as well as the body itself. So when life departed from Rachel, she died. Remember. This equivalent word was translated life 119 times in the KJV. It would have been completely proper to have written” … as her LIFE was departing (for she died) …” The meaning is the same.

    Rev. 6:9 & 20:4. John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded. The Diaglott reads, “I saw the persons of those who had been beheaded … “ Since SOUL means the “person” (the being), as well as “life” there is no problem in this passage. When Yahweh breathed into Adam’s nostrils, he became a LIVING soul; a LIVING BEING (RSV). Without breath, we become DEAD BEINGS, OR DEAD SOULS.

    Mt. 10:28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him who is about to destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell” (KJV).

    Many believe that some part of man is undying (immortal). If true, not even Yahweh can destroy it. But this scripture and many more say that Yahweh can and will destroy (kill, put to death) the SOULS THAT SIN; Ezek. 18:4, 20, 26; Acts 3:23; Mt.. 3:10; Ps. 37:10, 20, 36, 38; Rev. 20:14, 15; 2 Thes. 1:9; to name only a few.

    “Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the {future} life; but rather fear Him who can utterly destroy both life and body in gehenna” (Mt. 10:28, Diaglott).

    Verse 39 reveals this is speaking of the future life (psuche): those who deny Yahshua here and now in order to save this present life will lose the future life, but those who lose the present life for the Messiah will find (everlasting) life (psuche) in the future. Man can kill the body but cannot kill in such a way as to prevent Yahweh from giving us a better resurrection (Heb. 11:35); that is, everlasting life, as Scriptures reveal: “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death” (Rev. 2:10, 11).

    Please notice: There is no such thing as immortality separate and apart form Yahweh. He can destroy both soul and body in hell. Destruction is NOT everlasting life in hell. The wicked will one day cease to exist. They will be annihilated (Mt. 3:10-12; 13:30).

    1 Thes. 5:23. “And the very El of peace sanctify you holy; and I pray El your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Savior Yahshua Messiah.”

    Keeping in mind the things we have learned above, let us write this sentence in other words, but with the same meaning:

    “ … I pray El your whole spirit [mind] and soul [psuche = life] and body be preserved …”

    Phil. 1:21-23. “For me to live is Messiah, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: Yet what I shall choose I I wot not. For I am in a strait betixt two, having a desire to depart, and be with Messiah, which is far better.”

    The Apostle Paul had been arrested by Jewish authorities in Jerusalem because he preached that Yahshua is the Messiah. He was forced to appeal to Ceasar. The letter to the Philippians was written in 64 C. E. while he was a prisoner in Rome (Phil.1:7, 12-24; 2 Tim. 1:16, 17). At his first trial before Caesar in C.E. 66, no one stood with Paul. All deserted him (2 Tim. 4:16-18). While writing this letter to the Philippians, Paul debated with himself whether he would (1) gain his freedom or (2) be executed. In either case, he belonged to Yahshua Messiah. Should he live, he would live for the Messiah. Should he be executed, he would die as a martyr for the Messiah. There was “gain” for him in doing so (Phil. 1:21). What is the gain Paul expected? Immediate entrance into Yahshua’s presence in heaven? No. The gain was a “better resurrection” (Heb. 11:35). Paul makes this clear in his continuing comments to the Philippians:

    “Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Messiah Yahshua my Savior. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I might gain Messiah and be found in him, … that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that IF POSSIBLE I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Messiah Yahshua has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of Yahweh in Messiah Yahshua” (Phil. 3:8-14, RSV).

    Now back to Phil. 1:23: Our English Versions appears to say that if Paul departed, he would have been immediately ushered into the presence of Yahshua. As noted above, this was not the case. He awaited the resurrection. Paul himself wrote that it is at the Messiah’s return that the resurrection occurs, and only then the “dead in Messiah will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Yahshua in the air; and so we shall always be with Yahshua” (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 RSV). What then, is the meaning of Phil. 1:23?

    The key to understanding is the word “depart” (Greek = analuo). This word appears only twice in the New Testament. The other time it is translated “return.” What? “Return” is the very opposite of “depart.” True, but look at the Scripture:

    “ … And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their master, when he will RETURN [analuo] from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the Master when he cometh shall find watching: …” (Luke 12:36, 37).

    We see that “analuo” is definitely related to the Messiah’s return, not his going away. There is other evidence indicating analuo should be translated return in Phil. 1:23. In consulting the Diaglott and the NIV Greek/English Interlinear, the correct message appears to be as follows:

    “For I am in a strait between two, having a desire for the return, and to be with Messiah; which is far better” [than either of the choices named in verse 21] (Phil. 1:23).

    The Interlinear does indeed contain the words, “for the.” English translations omit them, however. This could have happened in al sincerity, since most Bible scholars believe the soul goes to be with the Messiah immediately after death. Paul speaks of three things in particular in Phil. 1:21-23.

    1. Paul might be executed.
    2. Paul might be acquitted, and live to go free.
    3. Paul longed for the return, so he could be with the Messiah.

    A Final Comment

    The view that man has within him an immortal soul which flits off to heaven or to h
    ell at the death of the person is not a biblical doctrine. It has been adopted from the pagan religions. Believing in the immortality of the soul is one step toward believing in re-incarnation. Let us drop all paganism and believe the Sacred Writings which have been inspired by the Most High El – Yahweh (2 Tim. 3:14-17).V
    SOURCE


    that is not the topic here.

    dont you have some manners frank?

    April 16, 2012 at 4:09 am#292717
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi FRank,
    God can destroy the soul.
    Mt 10.28

    April 16, 2012 at 4:10 am#292718
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,15:08)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,15:06)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:00)
    Hi Frank,
    No. Asleep.
    And alive to God.
    The Living Spirit does not die


    Nick,

    So, you are one who believe in the “immortal soul” doctrine?

    THE SOUL OF MAN
    By Voy Wilks
    1970, Revised 1993

    Does man have an immortal soul dwelling within him? What happens to the soul when a man dies? Can a soul die? Or can it be that man IS a soul? Let us examine the Scriptures and learn, if possible, the correct answer to these questions. This is a biblical topic; therefore we should learn what the Sacred Writings teach.
    First: Why Read the Old Testament?

    Some kindly people have suggested we, the Assembly of Yahweh (7th day), read the Old Testament too much. “Why not read more in the New Testament?” To answer that, let me point out:

    1. ALL Scripture (both Old and New), if given by inspiration of Yahweh, is profitable, therefore we should read both the Old and the New.
    2. Old Testament Scriptures are many more in number, so naturally these require more reading time than do New Testament Scriptures. In most Bibles, the Old Testament consists of approximately 840 pages, while the New Testament consists of only about 240 pages.
    3. The Apostles PROVED their doctrine by Old Testament Scriptures.
    4. Of more importance, Yahshua the Messiah taught his disciples from the Old Scriptures. If we revere the Savior, we as his disciples, should revere the Holy Scriptures which he revered. He too, proved his doctrine by the ancient Scriptures, as is indicated in the following quotation:

    “Man shall not live by bread alone, but BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the MOUTH OF YAHWEH” (Deut. 8:3; Mt. 4:4, KJV). This includes Old Testament Scriptures in general and the Ten Commandments in particular. Paul agrees:

    ” … from a child thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES which are able to make thee wise UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Messiah Yahshua. ALL Scripture given by inspiration of Yahweh is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, and for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS: that the man of Yahweh may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto ALL good works” (2 Tim. 3:15-17.

    Did Paul refer to New Testament writings? No. He referred to the Torah (the Books of Moses), the prophets, the Psalms, and the “Writings” (the Old Testament). Be assured that Paul did not refer to his own writings as “Holy Scriptures.” Instead, he referred to the Old Testament. So let us remember: Paul says Old Testament Scriptures are profitable for establishing DOCTRINE, therefore we too are justified in searching the Old Scriptures to learn what is true. To better understand about the Soul of Man, let us now consult Scriptures which deal with the soul, and discover how the word is used.

    Old Testament Evidence:
    Astonishing Revelations About the Soul
    Gen 46:18 -Souls (KJV) Persons (RSV)
    Lev. 5:1,2 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:4 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV).
    Lev. 5:17 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV).
    Lev. 7:21 -Souls (KJV) Person (RSV).
    Lev. 7:27 -Souls (KJV) Whoever (RSV).
    Lev. 20: 25 -Souls (KJV) Yourselves (RSV).
    Lev. 22:11 -Souls (KJV) Slave (RSV).
    Lev. 23:32 -Souls (KJV) Yoursleves (RSV).
    Num. 30:4 -Souls (KJV) Herself (RSV).

    Young's Concordance: When we look at the word SOUL in Young's Concordance, we find that the Hebrew word is NEPHESH, meaning “animal soul.” Here are some very revealing ways NEPHESH is translated in the King James Bible.
    Translated No. of Times Translated No. of Times
    Appetite 4 Soul 428
    Beast 2 Thing 2
    Body 2 Lust 2
    Body 7 Creature 9
    Dead (body) 8 Own 1
    Desire 5 Will 4
    Man 3 Fish 1
    Mind 15 Life 119
    Person 30 Self 19

    Strong's Concordance: “nephesh #5315, a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstract) vitality, etc.”

    The Nephesh (Soul, Life) Is In the Blood

    As noted above, Nephesh is translated SOUL 428 times. However, it is translated LIFE 119 times. Let us at this time review some of the Scriptures in which Nephesh (soul) is translated life in the KJV.

    Gen. 9:3-5. “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meet [food] for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul] thereof, WHICH IS THE BLOOD thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your BLOOD of your LIVES [nephesh # 5315, soul] will I require: at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul] of man.”

    Gen. 19:17-19. “Escape for you LIFE [nephesh #5315, soul]; look not behind thee, … lest thou be consumed. … Behold now, … though has magnified thy mercy which thou hast showed unto me in saving my LIFE” [nephesh #5315, soul].

    Lev. 17:10-15. “And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the STRANGERS that sojourn among you, that EATETH ANY BLOOD; I will even set my face against that SOUL [nephesh] that EATETH BLOOD, and cut him off from among his people. For the LIFE [nephesh, soul] IS IN THE BLOOD: and I have given it to you upon the alter to, make an atonement for your SOULS [nephesh]: for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the SOUL [nephesh]. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No SOUL [nephesh] of you shall eat BLOOD, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood. … For it is the LIFE [nephesh, soul] of ALL FLESH; the BLOOD of it is for the LIFE [NEPHESH, SOUL] IS THE BLOODA thereof: … And every SOUL [nephesh] that eateth …” (KJV).

    Num. 35:31. “Moreover you shall accept no ransom for the LIFE [nephesh, soul] of the murderer, … he shall be put to death” (RSV)

    Deut. 12:23. “Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: FOR the BLOOD IS the LIFE [nephesh, soul] with the Flesh” (KJV)

    1 Sam 19:11. ” … and Michal … told him, If thou save not thy LIFE [nephesh, soul] tonight, tomorrow thou shalt be slain.”

    Job 2:6. “And Yahweh said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but SAVE HIS LIFE [nephesh, soul].” What is this? Satan, “a soul saver.” This seems humorous, but it helps in understanding the word nephesh (soul).

    Isa. 53:12. ” … because he hath POURED OUT HIS SOUL unto DEATH.”

    ECCL. 9:5. The DEAD KNKOW NOTHING at all. This brings to mind an illustration someone made regarding the common view that the DEAD are WISE and know EVERYTHING. Reason: because the “immortal soul” has gone to heaven. He said, “Hit a man on the head with a half pound hammer, and immediately he knows nothing at all because he becomes unconscious. But, hit a man on the head with a 10 pound hammer, and soon he knows EVERYTHING because he is dead. Foolish? Yes, indeed. But it shows the folly of believing the dead know everything, and are more ACUTELY ALIVE than the living ? than before death overtook them.

    Souls [Nephesh] Equal Persons

    It is interesting to notice that many Scriptures in which the King James Version uses the word SOUL, other versions use words which better convey the true meaning: PERSON, anyone, yourself, yourselves, he who, etc. For your convenience, here are listed a few of these Scriptures from both the KJV and the RSV.
    Gen 46:18 -Souls (KJV) Persons (RSV)
    Lev. 5:1,2 -Souls (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:4 -Soul (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    Lev. 5:17 -Soul (KJV) Anyone (RSV)
    L
    ev. 7:21 -Soul (KJV) Person (RSV)
    Lev. 7:27 -Soul (KJV) Whoever (RSV)
    Lev. 20:25 -Soul (KJV) Yourselves (RSV)
    Lev. 22:11 -Soul (KJV) Slave (RSV).
    Lev. 23:32 -Soul (KJV) Yourselves (RSV).
    Num. 30:4 -Soul (KJV) Herself (RSV).

    NEPHESH (#5315, soul) is also translated “dead,” meaning “dead person” in the following Scriptures: Lev. 19:28; 21:1; 22-4; Num. 5:2; 6:11.

    Living Creatures: Fishes, Bugs, and Animals Are Souls (Nephesh)

    The Hebrew word NEPHESH (#5315) is in the King James Version translated LIVING CREATURE nine times. The interesting thing is, these “creatures” [nephesh, souls] are bugs, fishes, birds, and animals:

    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = fishes in the sea and birds of the air (Gen. 1:21).
    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = cattle of the field (Gen. 1:24).
    * Living creatures (nephesh, souls) = beasts of the earth (Gen. 1:24).
    * Adam named every LIVING CREATURES [nephesh, soul] (Gen. 2:19).
    * Every LIVING CREATURE [nephesh, soul] came out of the ark (Gen. 9:10, 12).
    * The rainbow was a covenant between YHWH and LIVING CREATURES [nephesh, souls] (Gen. 9:15, 16).
    * Man's food consists of living creatures (nephesh, souls); i.e. animals, fowls, and bugs, which are in the seas, or which creep upon the earth (Lev. 11:46).

    As you will remember, several Scriptures show that the LIFE is in the BLOOD. The blood itself is referred to as the soul. DEAD BODIES also, are souls. It is now easy to see that a breathing creature is a LIVING soul; and one who has breathed his last, is a DEAD soul. These Scriptures from the Old Testament are more than enough to show that the words SOUL and LIFE are often used interchangeable. The SOUL can refer to the whole person, the physical person, and to the BLOOD within a person. The soul can die from various causes. Again, let us stress these points:

    1. The soul [nephesh] is the person, the human being (mail or female), and the living creatures.
    2. The soul [nephesh] can die; can be killed by various means; by the sword, lack of food etc.
    3. The LIFE [nephesh] is in the blood
    4. Death results when the blood is poured out of the soul.
    5. A dead body is a dead soul [nephesh].

    New Testament Evidence

    Psuche = Life (Animal life, breath {Young's Concordance})

    The Greek word in the New Testament from which “soul” is translated is PSUCHE. It appears in the Greek New Testament 103 times and, in the KJV, was translated: SOUL, 58 times; LIFE, 40 times; HEART, 1 time; and MIND, 3 times.

    Lk. 2:35 – A SWORD shall pierce thy soul (psuche obviously = body).

    Lk. 12:19 – His soul (psuche = person) enjoyed eating, drinking, and making merry.

    Lk. 12:20 – His soul (psuche = life) would be required of him that very night.

    Luke 12:19, 20. “And I will say to my soul [psuche], soul [psuche] thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But El said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul [psuche] shall be required of thee: …”

    We see in the New Testament, just as in the Old, that the soul enjoys eating and drinking. These verses could read as follows with no change in meaning:

    “I will say to myself: Man, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry. But El said to him, 'Fool! This night your life will be required of you.'”

    The same Greek word (psuche, soul) appears as life in the following verses:

    Yahshua said, “Take no thought for your life {psuche}, what you shall eat; … The life {psuche} is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.”

    The Psuche (Soul) Can be Destroyed (Die)

    Mt. 3:10. “And now the axe is laid unto the Root of the trees; therefore, every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire”. Notice: it is the tree that is hewn down and BURNED, not just the FRUIT, of the tree.

    Mt. 3:12. “The chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.” So it is not that the wicked souls will only be SEPARATED from Yahweh. They will be DESTROYED in the fire ­­- BURNED UP – annihilated, cease to exist.

    Acts 3:23. The soul that does not hear, shall be destroyed. The New Scriptures, then, agrees with the Old: The soul that sinneth, it shall die; be destroyed. Not only will the soul be separated from Yahweh, but the soul will DIE – cease to live.

    James 5:20. A formula for saving a soul (a person) from death.

    1 Pet. 3:20. Eight souls [persons, RSV] were saved by water. This refers to Noah and his family; physical human beings.

    Rev. 16:3. The SOULS {psuche} in the sea died because the sea became like the blood of a dead man. (The R.S.V. reads, “EVERY LIVING THING died that was in the sea”). This includes the fishes (souls).

    Rev 18:3-14. Tells about the souls (PSUCHE) lusting after trade goods, food, etc. This clearly shows the soul (the person) is not IMMORTAL. Man is very MORTAL, very human, and is dependent upon food, raiment, and shelter – the blessings of the earth.

    Does the Soul Leave the Body At Death?

    Some believe the souls of the righteous leave the body at death and go to heaven, and the souls of the wicked leave the body at death and go to hell. Is this really true? Let us consider: Yahshua was without sin, a righteous man. If righteous souls go to heaven at death, then Yahshua's soul should by all means have gone to heaven when he died.

    Again: If there ever was a soul which should have gone to heaven at death, then Yahshua's soul should have made the trip. Did this happen? No. Scriptures indicate Yahshua's soul went to hell – for three days and three nights (Acts 2:27-31). It did not go to heaven. Instead, it went to hell – the grave. This illustrates two significant points:

    1. The souls of the righteous do not go to heaven when the person dies.
    2. Generally speaking, the SOUL and the PERSON are one and the same thing. A “living soul” is a living person, and a “dead soul” is a dead person.

    The Good News is: Yahshua's soul (psuche) was not left in hell (Acts 2:31). He came forth from the grave after three days and three nights. Praise Yahweh! But to continue:

    Mt. 2:20. Arise, … for they are dead who sought the young child’s LIFE (psuche, soul).

    Mt. 16:25, 26. “For whoever will save his LIFE (psuche) shall lose it: and whoever shall loose his LIFE (psuche)? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his SOUL (psuche).”

    Both “LIFE” and “SOUL” appear twice in these verses. All four are translated from the same Greek word, PSUCHE. Here, “life” and “soul” can be interchanged with no loss of meaning. In fact, all are translated “life” in the following versions:
    American Standard Version Jerusalem Bible
    Berkeley Version Jewish New Testament
    Bible in Basic English New Revised Standard Version
    Concordant Version New World Translation
    Diaglott Revised Standard Version
    Emphasized Bible The Sacred Scriptures, Bethel Edition
    Good News Bible Weymouth Version

    We have seen people die; therefore we have seen with our own eyes that death is final. There is no part of man which lives on. All is lost; a total, TOTAL LOSS. One moment there is life, breath, thought, action. The next moment there I no breath, no thought, no life, no action. LIFE is replaced by Death. We have seen it, so we know, even without any outside help that were it not for the heavenly Father, death is the end.

    In fact, that is why Yahshua was offered as a ransom for us – because we DO NOT have immortality (Ezek. 18:4, 20). Immortality (everlasting life) is a gift of Yahweh (Rom. 6:23); a reward promised to the faithful (Rev. 2A:7, 11). We are to “seek for glory, honor, and immortality, eternal life” (Rom 2:7). We do not have immortality yet, but Yahshua has brought it to light; has made it known; has revealed it to us (2 Tim. 1:10). Therefore we now see how to achieve immortality.

    Again, man does not at this time possess immortality. Never once does the
    Bible speak of the “immortal soul.” These two words never appear together. Paul wrote that only Yahweh has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16). Therefore, no human being living today possesses immortality. We put on immortality only at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:42-54).

    Summary

    We have found the Scriptures teach:

    1. Soul and person are one and the same thing, generally speaking.
    2. The life of the soul is the blood
    3. When the blood is poured out, the result is death to the soul.
    4. A living being is a living soul; a dead person is a dead soul.
    5. When a person dies, the soul does not go to heaven.
    6. A person (a human being) IS a soul, therefore:
    7. A soul can die, give up life, cease to exist.

    Death is NOT life. Death is the opposite of life. In a moment of time a vital, living, intelligent being can be changed to a lifeless, dead body which knows nothing at all. It is the same with humans and with animals. All die and go to the same place – we return to dust, as Scriptures indicate:

    “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beat … All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:19-20).

    Response to Objections

    Gen. 35:18. Perhaps some will refer to the death of Rachel. When we understand about the “soul” there is no problem or contradiction here. We have already seen that the soul refers to the life, as well as the body itself. So when life departed from Rachel, she died. Remember. This equivalent word was translated life 119 times in the KJV. It would have been completely proper to have written” … as her LIFE was departing (for she died) …” The meaning is the same.

    Rev. 6:9 & 20:4. John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded. The Diaglott reads, “I saw the persons of those who had been beheaded … “ Since SOUL means the “person” (the being), as well as “life” there is no problem in this passage. When Yahweh breathed into Adam’s nostrils, he became a LIVING soul; a LIVING BEING (RSV). Without breath, we become DEAD BEINGS, OR DEAD SOULS.

    Mt. 10:28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him who is about to destroy both SOUL and BODY in hell” (KJV).

    Many believe that some part of man is undying (immortal). If true, not even Yahweh can destroy it. But this scripture and many more say that Yahweh can and will destroy (kill, put to death) the SOULS THAT SIN; Ezek. 18:4, 20, 26; Acts 3:23; Mt.. 3:10; Ps. 37:10, 20, 36, 38; Rev. 20:14, 15; 2 Thes. 1:9; to name only a few.

    “Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the {future} life; but rather fear Him who can utterly destroy both life and body in gehenna” (Mt. 10:28, Diaglott).

    Verse 39 reveals this is speaking of the future life (psuche): those who deny Yahshua here and now in order to save this present life will lose the future life, but those who lose the present life for the Messiah will find (everlasting) life (psuche) in the future. Man can kill the body but cannot kill in such a way as to prevent Yahweh from giving us a better resurrection (Heb. 11:35); that is, everlasting life, as Scriptures reveal: “He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death” (Rev. 2:10, 11).

    Please notice: There is no such thing as immortality separate and apart form Yahweh. He can destroy both soul and body in hell. Destruction is NOT everlasting life in hell. The wicked will one day cease to exist. They will be annihilated (Mt. 3:10-12; 13:30).

    1 Thes. 5:23. “And the very El of peace sanctify you holy; and I pray El your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Savior Yahshua Messiah.”

    Keeping in mind the things we have learned above, let us write this sentence in other words, but with the same meaning:

    “ … I pray El your whole spirit [mind] and soul [psuche = life] and body be preserved …”

    Phil. 1:21-23. “For me to live is Messiah, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: Yet what I shall choose I I wot not. For I am in a strait betixt two, having a desire to depart, and be with Messiah, which is far better.”

    The Apostle Paul had been arrested by Jewish authorities in Jerusalem because he preached that Yahshua is the Messiah. He was forced to appeal to Ceasar. The letter to the Philippians was written in 64 C. E. while he was a prisoner in Rome (Phil.1:7, 12-24; 2 Tim. 1:16, 17). At his first trial before Caesar in C.E. 66, no one stood with Paul. All deserted him (2 Tim. 4:16-18). While writing this letter to the Philippians, Paul debated with himself whether he would (1) gain his freedom or (2) be executed. In either case, he belonged to Yahshua Messiah. Should he live, he would live for the Messiah. Should he be executed, he would die as a martyr for the Messiah. There was “gain” for him in doing so (Phil. 1:21). What is the gain Paul expected? Immediate entrance into Yahshua’s presence in heaven? No. The gain was a “better resurrection” (Heb. 11:35). Paul makes this clear in his continuing comments to the Philippians:

    “Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Messiah Yahshua my Savior. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I might gain Messiah and be found in him, … that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that IF POSSIBLE I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Messiah Yahshua has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of Yahweh in Messiah Yahshua” (Phil. 3:8-14, RSV).

    Now back to Phil. 1:23: Our English Versions appears to say that if Paul departed, he would have been immediately ushered into the presence of Yahshua. As noted above, this was not the case. He awaited the resurrection. Paul himself wrote that it is at the Messiah’s return that the resurrection occurs, and only then the “dead in Messiah will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Yahshua in the air; and so we shall always be with Yahshua” (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 RSV). What then, is the meaning of Phil. 1:23?

    The key to understanding is the word “depart” (Greek = analuo). This word appears only twice in the New Testament. The other time it is translated “return.” What? “Return” is the very opposite of “depart.” True, but look at the Scripture:

    “ … And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their master, when he will RETURN [analuo] from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the Master when he cometh shall find watching: …” (Luke 12:36, 37).

    We see that “analuo” is definitely related to the Messiah’s return, not his going away. There is other evidence indicating analuo should be translated return in Phil. 1:23. In consulting the Diaglott and the NIV Greek/English Interlinear, the correct message appears to be as follows:

    “For I am in a strait between two, having a desire for the return, and to be with Messiah; which is far better” [than either of the choices named in verse 21] (Phil. 1:23).

    The Interlinear does indeed contain the words, “for the.” English translations omit them, however. This could have happened in al sincerity, since most Bible scholars believe the soul goes to be with the Messiah immediately after death. Paul speaks of three things in particular in Phil. 1:21-23.

    1. Paul might be executed.
    2. Paul m
    ight be acquitted, and live to go free.
    3. Paul longed for the return, so he could be with the Messiah.

    A Final Comment

    The view that man has within him an immortal soul which flits off to heaven or to hell at the death of the person is not a biblical doctrine. It has been adopted from the pagan religions. Believing in the immortality of the soul is one step toward believing in re-incarnation. Let us drop all paganism and believe the Sacred Writings which have been inspired by the Most High El – Yahweh (2 Tim. 3:14-17).V
    SOURCE


    that is not the topic here.

    dont you have some manners frank?


    jammit,

    Again, who died and made you the moderator of this from thread? :D

    April 16, 2012 at 4:27 am#292724
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:09)
    Hi FRank,
    God can destroy the soul.
    Mt 10.28


    Nick,

    So, do you believe that all “souls” die? When you speak to someone in short as you do, one has no idea what it is that you are saying and in doing so, one can interpret what you say in diverse ways. You might want to consider answering the questions that I pose to you in your responses to me in greater detail so that I may ascertain what it is that you are saying. This would help considerably! No more one liners in response to me please? If you can not respond to me without using one liners, please do not respond to me at all.

    April 16, 2012 at 4:30 am#292726
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    No.
    Those who are enlivened by the living Spirit sleep.

    That is the hope of the saved.
    They will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

    Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    April 16, 2012 at 4:57 am#292735
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:30)
    Hi Frank,
    No.
    Those who are enlivened by the living Spirit sleep.

    That is the hope of the saved.
    They will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

    Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


    Nick,

    I believe that Mattithyah 10:28 is in reference to the second death, not when one first dies.

    April 16, 2012 at 5:43 am#292743
    jammin
    Participant

    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil

    April 16, 2012 at 1:12 pm#292765
    charity
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    funny thing is…Thats a nasty little internal John comment. You have to love Jesus an not agree with John to be Allegeable for the honour.

    April 16, 2012 at 3:38 pm#292775
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ April 16 2012,18:12)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2012,14:02)

    Quote (942767 @ April 15 2012,19:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ April 15 2012,11:40)

    Quote (942767 @ April 15 2012,18:04)
    Hi:

    Quote
    Hbr 11:3   Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2   Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    In John 1:1 the Word pertains to Jesus, but no, the Word is not Jesus but is that which God has spoken and embodies His plan, and this plan demonstrates God's character.

    Quote
    Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  

    Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  

    Quote
    1Jo 1:1 ¶ That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;  

    1Jo 1:2   (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    you have overlooked many scriptures why ????


    Hi T:

    I haven't ignored any scriptures.  I have selected some scriptures which show that “the Word” in John 1:1 is not Jesus as a pre-existent sentient person as has mistakenly been taught, but is what God has spoken and that it embodies His plan.  

    Again, this is to show that “the Word” in John 1:1 pertains to Jesus but is not Jesus as a pre-existent, sentient person.

    My interest is that both you and I teach the truth.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    this would be one ;Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
    Jn 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”

    about whom you think John  and John the bpt talking


    Hi T:

    The Word in John 1:1 and in John 1:14 is Logos which is defined as the Word that God has spoken.  He spoke from the beginning of the coming Messiah beginning with Genesis here as the seed of the woman:

    Quote
    Gen 3:15   And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.  

    In Exodus 12, we have the scriptures pertaining to the passover and the passover lamb which is symbolic of Jesus.

    There are many other scriptures in the OT which speak either symbolically or prophetically of Jesus.

    And so, to restate what I have already stated, “the Logos” is what God had spoken pertaining to Jesus and it embodies His plan.  In John 1:14 what God had stated pertaining to Jesus became flesh. As the bible relates, the Holy Ghost overshadowed the virgin Mary, and she conceived, and Jesus was born into the world.

    “The Word” is that which God has spoken.  In Hebrews 1 the scripture states that in these last days “God has spoken to us through His Son”.  What God has spoken is the Word of God

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    so God gives legs to his words ???

    April 16, 2012 at 7:10 pm#292797
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,15:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:30)
    Hi Frank,
    No.
    Those who are enlivened by the living Spirit sleep.

    That is the hope of the saved.
    They will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

    Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


    Nick,

    I believe that Mattithyah 10:28 is in reference to the second death, not when one first dies.


    Hi Frank,
    Yes.
    The fire prepared for the devil and his angels

    April 16, 2012 at 11:22 pm#292868
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    jammit,

    I am not a part of any pagan “chuch”. :D

    April 16, 2012 at 11:29 pm#292870
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 17 2012,17:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    jammit,

    I am not a part of any pagan “chuch”.  :D


    F

    you probably have your own ??? :D

    April 16, 2012 at 11:42 pm#292873
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ April 16 2012,19:12)

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    funny thing is…Thats a nasty little internal John comment. You have to love Jesus an not agree with John to be Allegeable for the honour.


    Charity,

    What Jammin speaks in his lack of knowledge is nonsense but you are allowing the spirit of faultfinding to influence the words you write.  Why touch such an unclean thing.

    If you sin you are of the devil; if you do not sin then you are of God.  There is only one way to be set truly free from committing sin and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.  If you reject that way then your actions testify that you are currently the child of the evil one because you love to sin.

    There is no fault is such words as they are true.

    April 17, 2012 at 1:15 am#292879
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 17 2012,10:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    jammit,

    I am not a part of any pagan “chuch”.  :D


    yes you are bec you dont know the true GOD.
    and you dont know how to follow rules

    April 17, 2012 at 1:16 am#292880
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2012,06:10)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,15:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:30)
    Hi Frank,
    No.
    Those who are enlivened by the living Spirit sleep.

    That is the hope of the saved.
    They will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

    Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


    Nick,

    I believe that Mattithyah 10:28 is in reference to the second death, not when one first dies.


    Hi Frank,
    Yes.
    The fire prepared for the devil and his angels


    Nick,

    Not a fire of DESTRUCTION only “prepared for the devil and his angels”:

    There are two RESURRECTIONS. In BOTH of these RESURRECTIONS the word 'RESURRECTION' means 'being brought back from the DEAD to LIFE', not LIFE in “soul sleep”. Abraham, Isaac and Yaaqob are part of the FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, not the second RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

    “If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    This verse is speaking about the second resurrection of the DEAD! “The devils and his angels” names most certainly would not have been found in the “Book of Life” which is clearly made known as follows:

    And I saw the DEAD, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The DEAD were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the DEAD that were in it, and DEATH and Hades [Hebrew – 'Sheol' which is the grave] gave up the DEAD that were in them, …

    This is the second ressurection from the DEAD!

    … and each person was judged according to what he had done.  Then DEATH and Hades [Hebrew 'Sheol' which is the grave] were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    It is clear that those of the second resurrection from the DEAD whose names were found in the Book of Life joined in life eternal with those of the first ressurection of the DEAD.

    Note that this first ressurrection of the DEAD had already been mentioned previously in Revelation 20:4-6:

    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yahshua and because of the word of Yahweh. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Messiah a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the DEAD did not come back to LIFE UNTIL the thousand years had ended.).

    The word phrase “soul sleep” is not found anywhere in Scripture. This is simply a changing around of, twisting (“wrest”ing) of Father Yahweh's inspired word. This false belief in “soul sleep” comes from false theology, and is nowhere taught in Scripture! I could have sworn that you had said quite earliar that you do not support theological hypotisis' and accused others of doing so. As can be seen from the following source, it was John Calvin who first came up with the word phrase “soul sleep” and was further perpetuated by others:

    Christian mortalism:

    Since the phrase “soul sleep” does not occur either in the Bible or in early Anabaptist materials, an explanation is required for the origin of the term. …  “Soul sleep”The phrase soul sleep appears to have been popularised by John Calvin in the subtitle to his Latin tract Psychopannychia (manuscript Orléans 1534, Latin Strasbourg 1542, 2nd.ed. 1545, French, Geneva 1558, English 1581). The title of the booklet comes from Greek psyche (soul, mind) with pan-nychis (παν-νυχίς, all-night vigil, all-night banquet), so Psychopannychia, originally, represents Calvin's view, the one he was defending; that the soul was conscious, active.

    The title and subtitle of the 1542 Strasbourg 1st edition read:

    They live to Christ and do not sleep those souls of the saints who die in faith of Christ. Assertion.
    The title and subtitle of the 1545 2nd Latin edition read:

    Psychopannychia – Or a refutation of the error entertained by some unskillful persons, who ignorantly imagine that in the interval between death and the judgment the soul sleeps.
    The 1558 French edition was a translation of that of the 1545 2nd edition:

    Psychopannychie – traitté par lequel est prouvé que les âmes veillent et vivent après qu'elles sont sorties des corps ; contre l'erreur de quelques ignorans qui pensent qu'elles dorment jusque au dernier jugement..

    “Psychopannychism”

    In the Latin it is clearer that Psychopannychia is actually the refutation of, the opposite of, the idea of soul sleep. The French version, Psychopannychie – La nuit ou le sommeil de l'âme (“Psychopannychia – the night or the sleep of the soul”, Geneva 1558), may have caused the confusion that by -pannychis Calvin meant sleep (in Greek -hypnos not -pannychis, vigil). The French subtitle “le sommeil de l'âme” was taken up in German as Seelenschlaf (“soul-sleep”). The tract first appeared in English, translated by T. Stocker, as An excellent treatise of the Immortalytie of the Soule by John Calvin (London, 1581).

    Luther's use of similar language (but this time defending the view) appears in print only a few years after Calvin:

    “so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep” (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).

    “Hypnopsychism”

    “Hypnopsychism” from hypno- + psyche (“sleep of soul”) was a more correct coinage from Greek than that of Calvin's editor. Eustratios of Constantinople (after 582) denounced mortalism as a heresy using this term.

    “Thnetopsychism”

    A possibly contrasting phrase is thnetopsychism (from Greek thnetos (mortal) + psyche (soul, mind)). However the term has its origin in the descriptions of Eusebius of Caesarea and John of Damascus of mortalist views among Arab Christians, In the 1960s also this phrase was applied also to the views of Tyndale, Luther and others engaged in mortal introspection, from awareness that Calvin's term Psychopannychia originally described his own belief, not the belief he was calling error as well as in view of the Anabaptists, since their own writings held that the soul dies and the dead sleep. Their view is that the soul dies, with the body to be recalled to life at the resurrection of the dead, or that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no “spiritual” self to survive bodily death. In both cases, the deceased does not begin to enjoy a reward or suffer a punishment until Judgment Day.

    Mortalist argumentsHistorically, Christian mortalists have advanced theological, lexical, and scientific arguments in support of their position.

    Theological arguments

    Some early eastern Christians argued for mortalism on the basis of the identity of blood with life in Leviticus 17:11. Theological arguments for mortalism
    which contended it was not taught in the Bible were made by mortalists such as Francis Blackburne, Joseph Priestley, and Samuel Bourne. Mortalists such as Richard Overton advanced a combination of theological and philosophical arguments in favor of mortalism. Thomas Hobbes likewise made extensive use of theological argumentation. Some mortalists viewed their beliefs as a return to original Christian teaching. Mortalist theological arguments were also used to contest the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory and masses for the dead.

    Lexical arguments

    In the late eighteenth century, the standard Hebrew lexicon and grammar of John Parkhurst expressed the view that the traditional rendering of the Hebrew word nephesh as reference to an immortal soul, had no lexical support. Mortalists in the nineteenth century used lexical arguments to deny the traditional doctrines of hell and the immortal soul.

    Scientific arguments

    The eighteenth century mortalist Henry Layton presented arguments based on physiology. Scientific arguments became important to the nineteenth century discussion of mortalism and natural immortality, and mortalist Miles Grant cited extensively from a number of scientists who observed that the immortality of the soul was unsupported by scientific evidence.

    SOURCE:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism

    April 17, 2012 at 1:17 am#292881
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 17 2012,10:42)

    Quote (charity @ April 16 2012,19:12)

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    funny thing is…Thats a nasty little internal John comment. You have to love Jesus an not agree with John to be Allegeable for the honour.


    Charity,

    What Jammin speaks in his lack of knowledge is nonsense but you are allowing the spirit of faultfinding to influence the words you write.  Why touch such an unclean thing.

    If you sin you are of the devil; if you do not sin then you are of God.  There is only one way to be set truly free from committing sin and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.  If you reject that way then your actions testify that you are currently the child of the evil one because you love to sin.

    There is no fault is such words as they are true.


    yes kerwin if you sin.. and if you dont know the true GOD.

    April 17, 2012 at 1:18 am#292882
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 17 2012,12:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2012,06:10)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 16 2012,15:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2012,15:30)
    Hi Frank,
    No.
    Those who are enlivened by the living Spirit sleep.

    That is the hope of the saved.
    They will sit at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

    Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


    Nick,

    I believe that Mattithyah 10:28 is in reference to the second death, not when one first dies.


    Hi Frank,
    Yes.
    The fire prepared for the devil and his angels


    Nick,

    Not a fire of DESTRUCTION only “prepared for the devil and his angels”:

    There are two RESURRECTIONS. In BOTH of these RESURRECTIONS the word 'RESURRECTION' means 'being brought back from the DEAD to LIFE', not LIFE in “soul sleep”. Abraham, Isaac and Yaaqob are part of the FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, not the second RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD

    “If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    This verse is speaking about the second resurrection of the DEAD! “The devils and his angels” names most certainly would not have been found in the “Book of Life” which is clearly made known as follows:

    And I saw the DEAD, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The DEAD were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the DEAD that were in it, and DEATH and Hades [Hebrew – 'Sheol' which is the grave] gave up the DEAD that were in them, …

    This is the second ressurection from the DEAD!

    … and each person was judged according to what he had done.  Then DEATH and Hades [Hebrew 'Sheol' which is the grave] were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

    It is clear that those of the second resurrection from the DEAD whose names were found in the Book of Life joined in life eternal with those of the first ressurection of the DEAD.

    Note that this first ressurrection of the DEAD had already been mentioned previously in Revelation 20:4-6:

    I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Yahshua and because of the word of Yahweh. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Messiah a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the DEAD did not come back to LIFE UNTIL the thousand years had ended.).

    The word phrase “soul sleep” is not found anywhere in Scripture. This is simply a changing around of, twisting (“wrest”ing) of Father Yahweh's inspired word. This false belief in “soul sleep” comes from false theology, and is nowhere taught in Scripture! I could have sworn that you had said quite earliar that you do not support theological hypotisis' and accused others of doing so. As can be seen from the following source, it was John Calvin who first came up with the word phrase “soul sleep” and was further perpetuated by others:

    Christian mortalism:

    Since the phrase “soul sleep” does not occur either in the Bible or in early Anabaptist materials, an explanation is required for the origin of the term. …  “Soul sleep”The phrase soul sleep appears to have been popularised by John Calvin in the subtitle to his Latin tract Psychopannychia (manuscript Orléans 1534, Latin Strasbourg 1542, 2nd.ed. 1545, French, Geneva 1558, English 1581). The title of the booklet comes from Greek psyche (soul, mind) with pan-nychis (παν-νυχίς, all-night vigil, all-night banquet), so Psychopannychia, originally, represents Calvin's view, the one he was defending; that the soul was conscious, active.

    The title and subtitle of the 1542 Strasbourg 1st edition read:

    They live to Christ and do not sleep those souls of the saints who die in faith of Christ. Assertion.
    The title and subtitle of the 1545 2nd Latin edition read:

    Psychopannychia – Or a refutation of the error entertained by some unskillful persons, who ignorantly imagine that in the interval between death and the judgment the soul sleeps.
    The 1558 French edition was a translation of that of the 1545 2nd edition:

    Psychopannychie – traitté par lequel est prouvé que les âmes veillent et vivent après qu'elles sont sorties des corps ; contre l'erreur de quelques ignorans qui pensent qu'elles dorment jusque au dernier jugement..

    “Psychopannychism”

    In the Latin it is clearer that Psychopannychia is actually the refutation of, the opposite of, the idea of soul sleep. The French version, Psychopannychie – La nuit ou le sommeil de l'âme (“Psychopannychia – the night or the sleep of the soul”, Geneva 1558), may have caused the confusion that by -pannychis Calvin meant sleep (in Greek -hypnos not -pannychis, vigil). The French subtitle “le sommeil de l'âme” was taken up in German as Seelenschlaf (“soul-sleep”). The tract first appeared in English, translated by T. Stocker, as An excellent treatise of the Immortalytie of the Soule by John Calvin (London, 1581).

    Luther's use of similar language (but this time defending the view) appears in print only a few years after Calvin:

    “so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep” (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).

    “Hypnopsychism”

    “Hypnopsychism” from hypno- + psyche (“sleep of soul”) was a more correct coinage from Greek than that of Calvin's editor. Eustratios of Constantinople (after 582) denounced mortalism as a heresy using this term.

    “Thnetopsychism”

    A possibly contrasting phrase is thnetopsychism (from Greek thnetos (mortal) + psyche (soul, mind)). However the term has its origin in the descriptions of Eusebius of Caesarea and John of Damascus of mortalist views among Arab Christians, In the 1960s also this phrase was applied also to the views of Tyndale, Luther and others engaged in mortal introspection, from awareness that Calvin's term Psychopannychia originally described his own belief, not the belief he was calling error as well as in view of the Anabaptists, since their own writings held that the soul dies and the dead sleep. Their view is that the soul dies, with the body to be recalled to life at the resurrection of the dead, or that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no “spiritual” self to survive bodily death. In both cases, the deceased does not begin to enjoy a reward or suffer a punishment until Judgment Day.

    Mortalist argumentsHistorically, Christian mortalists have advanced theological, lexical, and scientifi
    c arguments in support of their position.

    Theological arguments

    Some early eastern Christians argued for mortalism on the basis of the identity of blood with life in Leviticus 17:11. Theological arguments for mortalism which contended it was not taught in the Bible were made by mortalists such as Francis Blackburne, Joseph Priestley, and Samuel Bourne. Mortalists such as Richard Overton advanced a combination of theological and philosophical arguments in favor of mortalism. Thomas Hobbes likewise made extensive use of theological argumentation. Some mortalists viewed their beliefs as a return to original Christian teaching. Mortalist theological arguments were also used to contest the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory and masses for the dead.

    Lexical arguments

    In the late eighteenth century, the standard Hebrew lexicon and grammar of John Parkhurst expressed the view that the traditional rendering of the Hebrew word nephesh as reference to an immortal soul, had no lexical support. Mortalists in the nineteenth century used lexical arguments to deny the traditional doctrines of hell and the immortal soul.

    Scientific arguments

    The eighteenth century mortalist Henry Layton presented arguments based on physiology. Scientific arguments became important to the nineteenth century discussion of mortalism and natural immortality, and mortalist Miles Grant cited extensively from a number of scientists who observed that the immortality of the soul was unsupported by scientific evidence.

    SOURCE:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism


    what is the connection in john 1.1???
    ??? ??? ???

    i think this boy should go back to elementary and study how to read.

    April 17, 2012 at 1:26 am#292884
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 17 2012,12:15)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ April 17 2012,10:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 16 2012,16:43)
    frank,
    is that the teaching in your church?

    you are truly the son of the devil


    jammit,

    I am not a part of any pagan “chuch”.  :D


    yes you are bec you dont know the true GOD.
    and you dont know how to follow rules


    jammit,

    Your mommy has got your bah bah all warmed up for you. Now be a good little baby boy … AND GO TO SLEEP YOU NOISEY LITTLE BRAT! :D

    April 17, 2012 at 7:31 am#292941
    jammin
    Participant

    could you pls answer first my question

    what is the connection of your post to the topic?

    April 17, 2012 at 8:56 pm#293000
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ April 17 2012,07:17)

    yes kerwin if you sin.. and if you dont know the true GOD.


    Jammin,

    Demons know the true God and yet sin; knowing destruction awaits them.

    Jesus stated any one that sins is a servant of sin and that he will truly set them free from sin.

    If the teaching you adhere to, is not designed to set you truly free from serving sin; then it is false.

    For the Word is powerful and active.

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