John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 4,681 through 4,700 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #282589
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    JESUS OF NAZARETH was anointed by God, and went about doing good.[acts 10.38]

    #282592
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,11:21)
    Hi,
    JESUS OF NAZARETH was anointed by God, and went about doing good.[acts 10.38]


    N

    only anointed ??????

    #282593
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    Would you argue against the scriptures?

    #282605
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2012,11:27)
    Hi T,
    Would you argue against the scriptures?


    N

    no,only against your ignorance

    #282607
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    But why do you boast when you offer so little?

    #282623
    abe
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 05 2012,00:28)
    Mike,
    Jesus is eternal and has the name Jehovah which confirms this. I'm not going to argue this with you because I have already shown you. I just can't let you get away with trying to teach this.

    Kathi


    Hi Kathi,

    Nu.23:19 God is not a man that he should tell lies, nor a son of man that he should regret, has he himself said it,and will he not carry it out?

    Peace.

    #282631
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Abe,
    The Son who was in the form of God, while being in the form of God, was not a man and that is WHY He had to become a son of man. After He became a son of man, well, then He became able to be tempted, i.e. to be hungry, physically tired, etc. And then He was also able to die…He in regards to the flesh form, was able to shed blood and die. He couldn't have done that while being in His previous form.

    This is an amazing part of the gospel message…the incarnation!

    Here is a verse to show you that Jesus is not essentially a man but someone who became a man.

    Galatians 1:1
    New International Version (©1984)
    Paul, an apostle–sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead–

    The writer is saying that Jesus Christ and God the Father are not men. Neither one. Paul knows that Jesus in His true essential identity was not a man. Paul wrote in Colossians 1 that He is the Son of God the Father, the Father's image as well as His Firstborn that created all things in heaven and on earth.

    Peace 2 u 2
    Kathi

    #282634
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2012,10:50)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,09:28)
    Christ has the form of GOD according to phil 2.6. therefore, he is GOD!


    Go back to third grade, jammin.  If Christ (which in itself refers to someone God anointed, and not God Himself) has the form OF God, then he is not the God he has the form OF, but instead, somebody OTHER THAN that God.

    I cannot have the form OF King David unless I'm somebody OTHER THAN King David.

    Jesus cannot have the form OF God unless he is somebody OTHER THAN God.

    This is really simple stuff, jammin.  I'm truly surprised that your doctrine won't let you see it as it is.


    Mike,

    Quote
    Jesus cannot have the form OF God unless he is somebody OTHER THAN God.

    Let me phrase it simpler for you Mike:

    Jesus, the begotten God, CAN have the form of God especially since that was the form of the One who begat Him.

    Kathi

    #282643
    kerwin
    Participant

    Lightenup,

    Quote
    Jammin is definitely making a distinction between the Father and the Son. He is saying that they both are deity and the Son is deity in nature as is the Father.

    It is my understanding Jammin is a Trinitarian which is one who’s Christology is three persons in one God. That infers that the one God has multi-personality disorder. By what you write here your own teaching seems to be polytheistic in nature.

    Quote
    Would you deny the royalty of an earthly prince because he was not the king?

    The royalty of Jesus is that his nature is godly, which is to say like God’s in true righteousness and holiness. That nature imparted on him the nature of a servant.

    Quote
    The Son had to become a man in order to be tempted of hunger, physical tiredness, earthly rule, etc. That doesn't make Him less than the deity He was beforehand.

    Actually it would since one is either the one true God or they are not. By your teaching you are accusing God of at one time being less than all wise, less than all knowledgeable, and being subject to temptation.

    Quote
    This verse proves that Jesus was more than man:
    Galatians 1:1
    Young's Literal Translation
    Paul, an apostle — not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead —

    Kerwin, can you see that Paul was made an apostle not through a man but instead through Jesus Christ…

    Galatians 1
    New International Version (NIV)

    11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

    John 14:24
    New International Version (NIV)
    24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    Both Jesus and Paul agree that Jesus reveals the Word of God for God speaks through him and Jesus does not speak for himself.

    #282648
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,18:42)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2012,15:44)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,09:18)
    the father did not became flesh mike. that's right. but the son did.

    no man has the form of GOD. christ has the form of GOD! they have the same nature.
    the father and son, GOD!

    as i have said, you and adam have the same form, man. but you are not adam. adam is a true man! how about you mike? a false man? hahahahah

    maybe an animal mike.
    hahahahah

    your doctrine is so funny! hahaha


    Jammin,

    You seem to be accusing God of having a multi-personality disorder whereas he believes he is both a father and his own son.

    You are accusing God of being tempted by evil for it is written that Jesus was fully tempted as is common to man.

    As Jesus has been teaching us do not attempt to remove the mote from your brother's eye until you have removed the beam from your own.

    Pray for and seek godliness and the Kingdom will be yours.


    so you are oneness kerwin. your doctrine is not in the bible.

    btw, that is not the topic here.

    make a new thread


    Jammin,

    It may not be the topic of this post but I addressed your post and pointed out where your teachings depend on the principles of this dark world.

    Your teachings are designed to put and obstacle in front of those that seek to be like God in true righteousness and holiness by convincing those that hear them that they cannot achieve their desire.

    Put away those teachings and seek God's righteousness and you will enter the kingdom of heaven.

    #282652
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Kerwin,
    Polytheism is a belief in several gods with different natures and different purposes. Like those who would worship the sun god as well as worship the moon god…two different natures and purposes.

    What I understand is two persons together with their Holy Spirit that have a common nature (true deity nature) and act as one…interdependently for a common purpose. What one says…the other says, what one does…the other does. The Father gives the directives, the Son carries them out. There is no shifting of shadow between them…they act in complete harmonious unity.

    The Son always images the Father, not because He is less than God but because He is the perfect Son working in complete agreement with His perfect Father.

    Quote

    Quote
    The Son had to become a man in order to be tempted of hunger, physical tiredness, earthly rule, etc. That doesn't make Him less than the deity He was beforehand.

    Actually it would since one is either the one true God or they are not. By your teaching you are accusing God of at one time being less than all wise, less than all knowledgeable, and being subject to temptation.

    If God the only Son was limited by another power against His will, then He did not control becoming a servant but God the only Son was in complete agreement with the Father to limit Himself for a time.

    I don't know if the Son continued in the glory of exercising omnipresence and omniscience during this time as man or not. I trust that He became what He needed to become in order to fulfill the redemption of mankind. The incarnation is mysterious and unexplainable. Heck, I can't even explain electricity but I believe that it exists and that the light bulb changes when the switch is turned on.

    Gal 1:1 certainly speaks about Jesus not being a man. Paul knows that Jesus is the one who created all things in heaven and on earth. Man is the creature, not the creator. God did not use a man to create man, Kerwin.

    Kathi

    #282656
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 02 2012,20:01)
    DOES THE BIBLE SAYS THAT CHRIST “CAN SHARE” GOD'S NATURE?


    Hi Jammin, why yes the bible does that. (2 Peter 1:2-4)

    “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
    3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the
    knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious
    promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #282657
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Kerwin,
    you said:

    Quote

    It is my understanding Jammin is a Trinitarian which is one who’s Christology is three persons in one God. That infers that the one God has multi-personality disorder.

    What you think is trinitarianism is not trinitarianism. The three persons are one in DEITY NATURE and have been and always will be eternally inseparable in their relationship, yet distinct in relationship as one Father, one Son and one Holy Spirit.

    That is my paraphrase as I understand it. I have studied this a lot and what I wrote is basically the sense of it. A multiple personality disorder would be one person who was both a father and that father's son.

    I hope that helps,
    Kathi

    #282659
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    God is not IN RELATIONSHIP with His own Spirit.
    That is a catholic myth

    #282661
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Man partakes in deity nature because grace has been bestowed on him by God.
    The Son partakes in deity nature because He always was, is and will be deity.

    Big difference.

    #282662
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 04 2012,00:28)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2012,00:24)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 03 2012,07:14)
    14 The Word became a man and lived among us. We saw his divine greatness—the greatness that belongs to the only Son of the Father. The Word was full of grace and truth.

    that is CHRIST!


    That's correct, jammin.  Jesus is the SON OF the Father, and for us, there is but ONE God – the Father.

    He is not only our God, but Jesus' God as well.  Jesus himself tells us this.


    one GOD the father. that is right mike.
    but it does not mean that Christ is not GOD.
    he is GOD! the SON of GOD is GOD!

    1 john 5.20

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


    Hi Jammin,

    Is Jesus not also the Son of Mary. (Matt.1:18 / Matt.2:11 / Luke 2:34 / John 19:25 / Acts 1:14)

    Does that make him Mary according to your logic?    …and if not, why not?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #282663
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nick,
    That is merely your opinion. Your spirit is in relationship with you or do you not control your spirit?

    #282664
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Being the son of man would make him man in nature.
    Being the son of God would make Him God in nature.

    #282666
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LU,
    Theology is not of God.
    Scripture is the wisdom of God

    #282673
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 04 2012,09:02)
    Kathi,

    You have NEVER showed me that Jesus is eternal, or that he is ever called “Jehovah”.  That is just more wishful thinking on your part.  In fact, I believe you walked away from the discussion after I showed yout that “beginning of the creation by God”, the way YOU tried to claim it, would require Jesus to be a verb instead of a noun.

    I thought that since you walked away from the discussion, you had learned something.

    And sharing God's nature is sharing God's nature.  If some of us will share God's nature like Jesus does, and be brothers and joint heirs of God with him, then your claim that Jesus is God Almighty Himself makes the whole scriptural teaching fall to pieces.

    Because then we have God being an heir of God.  And we have some of us becoming BROTHERS to God Almighty, instead of SONS, like the scriptures teach.

    The entire teaching of the “Jesus is God” people is absurdity.  None of it aligns with scriptures, but because you people are so hell-bent on making true what is not, you have become experts at claiming the absurd with a straight face.

    Oh, I've added one more scripture to my “who created” collection, making it eight now:

    Malachi 2:10
    Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God create us?
     :)


    Mike,
    When you start realizing the distinction of Almighty God as the Father, Almighty God as the Son, and Almighty God as the unity of both then you will be able to understand.

    You will also understand why most all of your translations that you quote, Jesus is spoken of as God with a capital “G.”

    You quote a lot of scripture from translations that call Jesus “God” and not “god.”

    So us Jesus is God people are the ones aligning with scriptures, the very ones in the translations that you quote all the time. Jesus is not god in those scriptures but God.

    Do you realize this? Satan however is god and not God. You seem to have trouble with the distinction.

    Your eighth verse speaks of the one Jehovah who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Jesus is the Lord of lords with the God of gods.

    When you get this then things become so less complicated and you can agree with the Bibles you quote from when they capitalize the G in regards to the Father and the Son.

    Btw, I didn't run away, just didn't see any value in the point and I knew you weren't that interested in continuing the topic. I should have made that clear, sorry.

    Kathi

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