John 18:5-6

Because YHWH calls himself “I am”  in Exodus 3:13-14, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh when he said “I am” in John 18:5-6?

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Exodus 3:13-14 says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”

But what does Yahweh say in Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and in Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

Also look at Hebrews 1:5 & Hebrews 5:5

So Yahweh is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and therefore he is not God. Rather Jesus is the son of Yahweh, otherwise known as the Son of God.

Back in John 18 we can see that the Jews came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. They first took him to Annas (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Jesus to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Jesus said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days, then Jesus was condemned for claiming to be the Son of God in Matthew 26:63-65.

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.

It is believed by some that the account recorded in John 8:48-59 further supports the position that Jesus is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him (v59)? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews.

“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

  • accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
  • said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
  • implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
  • said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
  • said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
  • implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
  • said their father was the devil (vs.44).
  • said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
  • accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
  • accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
  • accused them of lying (vs.55).
 

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

  • that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
  • Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
  • that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
  • that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.

If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.

Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.

Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/

Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.

Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact this paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term ‘I am’. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” can only be at most, an unsupported and extemely weak opinion. There are no scriptures in the bible that uses this occurrence as a teaching to promote a Trinity Or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the Trinity Doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. To say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unacceptable to all who earnestly seek truth. Remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others, so we shouldn’t be so unreasonable.

If you read the whole Bible without bias, would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity. I really do not think so, therefore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion if you indeed believe in the Trinity Doctrine and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The Trinity Doctrine is based on weak assumptions which come from the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumptions and imaginations of men.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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Viewing 20 posts - 221 through 240 (of 255 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #794236
    kerwin
    Participant

    Andrew,

    The Lord of my country is President Obama. The only thing I see is his image, just I have seen Jesus’ image. He is hidden from me, just as Jesus is.

    Jesus is in a far country as this time and we just await his return.

    If God wanted to send us news clips that had his image in them then we would be sent those news clips.

    God uses angels as messengers even though he does not need them. He uses humans to preach the gospel and yet he has no need of them. I am certainly not going to tell him that there is no need for a King or a mediator between him and us, especially since Scripture already addresses that point in Judges and 1 Samuel. The mediator aspect is also addressed in Exodus 20 and perhaps 21.

    It is simple, Jesus calls the Father his God and I choose to believe what he says. That believe is in competition with the claim he is God so I do not believe that claim.

    #794238
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    Yes in Jesus, since his anointing as Christ, you have the Father.

    We can have  communion with BOTH Father and Son in the one Spirit.

    #794245
    DavidL
    Participant

    We can have communion with BOTH Father and Son in the one Spirit.

    Wow – and you deny the tri-unity..??

    #794307
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Do you not yet know the Father and the Son

    in the One Holy Spirit?

    #794360
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi T8,
    To clarify the spirit given to men and animals belongs to God and that of men returns to Him[eccl]
    But men do not share in the Holy Spirit of God unless God chooses to do so.

    Agreed.

    #794361
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus came from God
    He is not the Father – but is ONE with the Father

    I agree with you for once.

    Jesus is of God and God is the Father. That is why Jesus is called the Son OF God.

    Jesus is not his own Father right.

    Note the term son of God. Yes he is the son of the Father, but that is the same as saying “Son of God”.

    #794363
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Wow – and you deny the tri-unity..??

    Unity with God is given to the son, and all the sons of God. The son and the sons are not God, but are one with him in spirit.

    God is that spirit and he has given us his spirit. This is where we are all connected. God in us.

    Turning this oneness into some kind of single being doctrine is based on the vain imaginations of some men and philosophers.

    Oneness has nothing to do with a Triune God. It is about those who are not God, being one with the one true God, and that oneness is had, not in physical terms or soulish terms, but in spirit.

    The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

    #794379
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..Very good post, absolutely true, Thats the whole thing in a nut shell. “THAT GOD MAYBE IN “ALL” AND THROUGH “ALL”. ALL THOSE WHO ARE BEING LEAD BY, THE SPIRIT OF GOD “ARE” THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD, FOR HIS SEED ABIDES “IN” THEM. If only all could understand that. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene

    #794383
    DavidL
    Participant

    Do you not yet know the Father and the Son

    in the One Holy Spirit?

     

    Yes –

    Do you not yet know this is a “unity”…?

     

    You speak of the Son and the Father and the Holy Spirit – three separate entities..

    You even speak of them in close terms together..

    What you here describe so clearly – is simply what others call “a unity of three” (trinity)

     

    #794384
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8

    The son and the sons are not God

     

    If the Son is not God then why does the Scriptures speak of Him as God in so many places…?

    By denying the equality of the Son with the Father – you deny who the Son truly is…

    In denying the Son – you actually deny the Father also…

    Your final authority is not Scripture…

    But your own reasoning..

    Sadly, this logic..

    has become..

    your god.

    #794385
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    So if scripture says Jesus is a god then by your logic he must be equal to the Lord God, creator of all things.

    And if we do not agree with this tacky logic then somehow we are denying God.

    Scripture is not your final arbiter-you are.

    Men are called gods-Jesus.

    #794387
    NickHassan
    Participant

    1cor 8.’Hi davidl,

    “Heb 1

    “Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”.

    So, as with Jn20

    “I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”

    and

    1cor 8″For us there is one God, the Father..”

     

    Have you got two GODS?

    You need 2 for equality

    #794400
    DavidL
    Participant

    So, Nick…

    Do you not yet know the Father and the Son

    in the One Holy Spirit?

    #794402
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Surely.

    Do you not?

    Is that why you offer what is of man?

    #794404
    DavidL
    Participant

    I offer you your own words…

    should I believe them..?

    #794407
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    No you would not.

    Your fruit is not that of the Spirit.

     

    Your support is of man.

    #794514
    DavidL
    Participant

    Why should I believe you – when you are so confused..!?

    Do you not yet know the Father and the Son

    in the One Holy Spirit?

    #794804
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    To the deceived nothing is clear.

    rom 11.10

    ‘let their eyes be darkened to see not’

    #794892
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    David ………Why commit IDOLATRY, JESUS IS NOT A GOD OF AMYKIND, HE NEVER SAID HE WAS, so why should you try to make him one. By saying he is a GOD YOU ARE TURNING THE IMAGE OF HIM INTO THE IMAGE OF “A MAN OF SIN”, 2Ths2, and not even realizing it. God the Father said clearly “YOU SHALL HAVE “NO OTHER” GOD BESIDES ME”. How do you expect the Father to accept you, when you try to make Jesus out to be a another GOD?

    peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene

    #794919
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    If the Son is not God then why does the Scriptures speak of Him as God in so many places…?

    Jesus, himself, pointed to a passage of Scripture where human beings are called gods. Do you believe those human beings that received the word of God are gods because they are called gods by God?

    I ask because the argument you are using implies you believe the humans God refers to as gods are person within the Godhead.

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