Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,881 through 18,900 (of 19,165 total)
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  • #834769
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Jesus was not JUST a MAN, he was UNLIKE any ordinary MAN, he BECAME CHRIST, the anointed man with God’s Spirit without measure, who bled from his human flesh, DYING FOR YOU!

    He wasn’t JUST a man, he was the PROMISED SEED that would come from the lineage of Abraham, who all nations would be blessed through.

    He is not JUST a man, like some ordinary man, He is our master, our mediator to our Creator, and through the power of our Creator’s Spirit he was appointed to be our savior and king of kings ruling over his father David’s throne for an eternity.

    He wasn’t JUST a man, he BECAME a perfect MAN through his suffering for YOU and for God. He was the only man to submit fully to our Creator’s will, a Creator who loves us and made us HUMANS of the red earth, in His image. 

    Jesus was able to overcome because of how our Creator designed the human brain. We are special creatures more intelligent than all other Creatures God had made.. If God was not working in us, having made us able to become like Him in His image, we would remain like a brute beast.

     

     

     

    #834771
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    The design of the human brain gave no advantage to men.

    God can make sons of Abraham from these stones.

     

    It is all about the transforming abilities of our God by His Spirit.

    #834773
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…..what is the “Only” way, ” all the hairs of your head could be numbered” and stored, if not through YOUR DNA. Our DNA stores every feature of our bodies and from that we can be replicated at any time. So if our present bodies were completly destroyed it can be replicated exactly as it was before. The same works with a seed, the seed stores the exact plant DNA it came from and when planted it will reproduce it exactly the plant it came from. Not one ounce of defference. So it is with those that are resructed from the dead.

    You disdain for the human race will have to be dealt with, you hold it in descust, but GOD HOLD US IN GLORY AND HONOUR, AND HAS PUT “ALL” THING UNDER OUR FEET.  READ HEB. 2:6-11. maybe that will help you focus better brother.

    Mankind will always be mankind just as Jesus now is and will come the same way. He being a son of man will come with great power and glory, he told us. We are looking for the comming of the son of man , you on the other hand are looking for the comming of some other kind of creature it appears, another creature you have yet to describe to us.  I believe Jesus meant what he said, over 80 times in scripture, that he was a son of man, he also is a son of God, so are we also.

    You ask us to dig deeper but you do not produce scripture to back up your so-called deeper understandings.  We produce scriptures, where is your scriptures at?

     

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #834775
    Jodi
    Participant

    Nick,

    What do you think it is that He is transforming with His Spirit? It is our mind, which exists in our brains.

    1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    carnal    Sarkikos

    fleshly, carnal
    having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
    governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
    having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
    human: with the included idea of depravity
    pertaining to the flesh
    to the body: related to birth, linage, etc

    Nick you are not listening to the word of God and what it tells you,

    Read through this passage carefully,

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    Through the imagination of men, their foolish heart was darkened, and changed the truth of God into a LIE. Men have created false gods through their own imagination and it brought darkness. We do not follow the imagination of wicked invisible Spirits, our brains have the ability to imagine and create lies. The devil/slanderer is MAN. This passage is telling us this clearly.

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding,

    They did not retain God in their knowledge, He gave them over to a reprobate mind, the carnal mind as Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 3. A mind that is under the control of our carnal NATURE, that which ANIMALS are under the control of.

    Bears fight for territory, for food as do other earth creatures, including humans. But unlike other creatures that God created on earth, He made us in His image, He gave us brains that are highly more suffocated and intelligent, He gave us the ability for our brains to acquire the fruits of His Spirit,

    Galatians 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

    Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    Natural Phusikos

    1. produced by nature, inborn
    2. agreeable to nature
    3. governed by (the instincts of) nature

    Brute  Alogos

    1. destitute of reason
    2. contrary to reason, absurd

    Beasts  Zoon

    1. a living being
    2. an animal, brute, beast

    Men LIE, they speak what they do not understand because they are ignorant like a natural brute beast.

    We are BORN ignorant creatures, but through God’s Spirit He can transform our brains from a carnal mind, like that of ANIMALS to a mind that is spiritual being LED by God through receiving Wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.

    Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    The Pharisees are BLIND, they are IGNORANT, they are as SERPENTS, of the carnal mind, like a NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS. They lead others astray by their own imaginations from WITHIN they are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. They are of the OLD SERPENT, changing the truth of God and the truth of His way into a LIE.

     

    #834778
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi All,

     

    1 Cor 15: 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other (seed): 37 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Me: There are two seeds mentioned in the scripture above, the seed of the flesh and the seed of the spirit. The body of the flesh grows from the seed of the flesh. The body of the spirit grows in heaven above from the seed of the holy spirit. This body is reserved in heaven for us according to our good works. We receive our new bodies as crowns of righteousness when Christ returns. This is when the kingdom of earth becomes the kingdom of God which includes his saints. Our human spirits, hearts, and bodies will dissolve. We will have a new human heart compliant with Christ, the holy spirit in our spirit mind, and a body of the holy spirit and not of our flesh. The new in the image of the old will be holy, the old will dissolve.

    1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Me: Again, who is “we” in verse 52? I believe it is the image that is changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible and not the corruptible man to the incorruptible flesh.

    The seed comes from the heart and mind. It is transmitted through the spirit. The seed of David is from the heart and mind of David. A seed springs from its source. Christ had the seed of David in him.  He did not have the inherited flesh and human spirit of sin and death from David.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

    Me: Christ did not have sin or death in his flesh and was not weak to withstanding sin like we are. Christ did not have exactly the same human flesh as we have.

    Gen 6:2 That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Me: The point here is not to go into Genesis 6 and what exactly it meant. The point is that human flesh does not need to be like most humans have now. Christ was made in the likeness of our flesh. Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. whether our flesh has sin or not in it, and it does have sin because of Adam’s trespass. Christ did not have flesh exactly like ours. He is the second Adam first of the flesh and then of the spirit.

     

    #834779
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi All,

     

    New American Standard Bible
    Numbers 14:18 The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’

    Me: Future generations can feel sins of the fathers as if they had sinned.

    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Me: Future generations can feel the wrath of God for what they have done and what the perpetrators of their pass persecutors have done as if they had done it all.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou (Adam=mankind) shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on which basis all have sinned:

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Me: death was passed on to future generations as if they had committed Adam’s trespass. Thus we are sinners when we are conceived.  

    #834780
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi All,

     

    American Standard Version
    John 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

    Roma 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

    The resulting death from sin is what we inherit in our bodies.  This body is not the same body of the flesh that was of Christ.

    Human spirit

    Adam and Eve had a higher spirit before they trespassed. They died to that spirit in their spirit minds. So has all the posterity been dead ( Matt 8:22, Luke 9:60).

    The human spirit is death because of unrighteousness. If it is not everlasting, it is considered dead. The human spirit dies. It is corruptible. The human body is corruptible. Both perish.

    Matt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    Me: As the holy spirit is new and different in substance from our human spirits, so are our new bodies different in substance from our old.
    Bodies different in substance than our old.

    #834781
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Me: Christ does not have a body like the angels as you have stated.  This is just another  denigration of the Lord by you.

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Me: The bone head theory that Christ was resurrected as flesh and bones with no blood is just that.  Christ was resurrected from the dead in his human form.  He could walk through walls and trans figurate himself because he had flesh different from ours.  He was glorified with a new body after he had ascended into heaven.

     

     

     

    #834784
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TC,

    Adam and Eve died to their spirits in their spirit minds?.

    Religious gobbledegook.

    #834785
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi TC,

    You do not seem to grasp that CHRIST specifically refers to the ANOINTED MAN.

    It is not a word that is interchangeable with Jesus until the Jordan.

    Jesus of Nazareth was made both Lord and Christ.

    #834786
    Jodi
    Participant

    HI TC,

    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;
    12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    Paul has spoken up to this point about Christ and how he in fact did die, and that he did in fact rise from being dead and that this Christ appeared to many. WHAT BODY did he rise from the dead WITH, how are the dead raised up? .. as Christ is the firstfruits of the dead, so we are to RISE as he ROSE.
    TC, it is NOT what BODY Christ was later changed into after he rose from the dead, it is the BODY that Christ was RAISED WITH. I do not understand how you cannot understand this from what Paul is saying in this entire chapter. 
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    What BODY did Jesus (the firstfruits of the dead with others to follow) COME in when he ROSE from the dead TC? This ENTIRE chapter would be written entirely different if the glory of Christ existed  in a body that he was changed into later when ascending to God.  This chapter speaks of rising in glory from the dead, rising in power from the dead, rising into an incorruptible body from the dead. Jesus did not become firstborn of the dead the firstfruits, when he ascended to heaven, it was upon his rise from being dead.

    1 Cor 15: 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other (seed): 37 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    It is NOT that we become some other sort of seed actually is what Paul is saying, he is saying BUT the TRUTH IS God giveth it a body according to it’s SEED because EVERY SEED has it’s OWN BODY. Paul speaks and then is saying on the contrary the truth is, we are NOT able to become another seed. What is pleasing to God is that He did in fact give each seed it’s OWN body and thus it’s OWN glory. Glory is in the specific seed, not from changing from one seed to a different seed. The glory of human beings is that unlike fish or birds we have been given brains that are capable of coming to know Him and to come to having a relationship with Him. 

    To EXPLAIN this fact further, Paul goes onto tell us,

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Every SEED has it’s OWN BODY, it’s OWN glory, it’s own unique design. That SEED does not change into another seed, it has it’s OWN glory. 
    This APPLIES to the resurrection of the DEAD, upon rising from the dead Christ nor anyone else becomes another seed, for the SEED of man was pleasing to God and He gave that seed it’s own glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    “it” here represents the SAME SEED, which is a human being of the red earth.
    This passage does not change the “it”.
    The SEED is a particular KIND of creature, the passage is speaking of a particular creature, a particular kind of SEED, humans.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.  Humans are sown in corruption; humans are raised in incorruption: 43 Humans are sown in dishonour; humans are raised in glory: humans are sown in weakness; humans are raised in power: 44 Humans are sown a natural body; humans are raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first human was made a living soul; the last human died but then his spirit was brought back to life/quickened.
    The SAME SEED, the SAME KIND of BODY that was pleasing to God, that had been sown in dishonour is now RAISED from the dead in glory. NOT CHANGED to another SEED LATER. Jesus was raised not with a different KIND of body, the body he had that was not allowed to decay received glory UPON RISING FROM the dead. That same KIND of BODY, that is different from an angel’s body, or a fish’s body, was RAISED from the dead IN POWER. God created the human body made of the red earth  giving it the breath of life making it a living soul. God gave life to many creatures making them all living souls, they each are of their own unique seed. We are directly told in Genesis that animals are living souls as well, any created creature God had made, who He gave life to, as long as it has that life is a living soul.
    As Adam of the red earth was made a living soul having been given the breath of life, Jesus of the red earth who DIED had his spirit brought to life/quickened. His spirit saw life again, it was no longer dead, it was no longer asleep, it awoke being consciously aware.  The breath of life returned to the body and thus also the brain where the mind/spirit lives. Adam was sown in weakness he was made having ignorance, his spirit was ignorant. He was like the animals who are indeed ignorant of God. His spirit was ignorant like that of a serpent. God had made us in His image however, with the capability from going from an ignorant creature like that of an animal to being filled with the truth. This capability exists because of how YHWH designed our brains, the capabilities He gave to our minds, where unlike animals we could come to know Him and know His ways, and become like He is of righteous character.
    Jesus received wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, he grew from a child gaining wisdom, and then he was anointed with God’s Spirit being full of wisdom without measure. He was born an ignorant infant, and as he grew and as he was anointed, his spirit/mind/brain was filled with the knowledge of YHWH. The anointing caused him to have power over his carnal nature, where he was able to not act like a brute beast, able to deny the flesh. He had control over the survival state and the emotional state because the executive state of his brain was filled with the knowledge of YHWH. Even facing death where the survival state and the emotional state of the brain is most powerful, he was able to overcome.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    THE SAME SEED the same kind of being that YHWH created goes from mortality to immortality. We do not go from mortal human beings to some other creature and that is how we become immortal. The human being itself, that uniquely created seed that YHWH made in His image becomes immortal. This is exactly WHY we are told numerous times that the resurrected Jesus is STILL a human being, that our mediator is a human being an Anthropos.
    Just PURE foolishness to say he is of a different SEED when we are told directly and repeatedly that he is NOT. Jesus IS a HUMAN BEING with eternal life. A human being is returning to earth and many on this forum sound like they are in a state of mind where they are going to deny him.
    #834787
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi TC,

    You said,  “Christ does not have a body like the angels as you have stated. This is just another denigration of the Lord by you.”

    I never said he had a body like the angels, I specifically said that he does NOT have a body like the angels. His body is that of a human being, first it was mortal now it is immortal.

    #834788
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi TC,

    Yes Jesus flesh is different it went from human mortal flesh to human immortal flesh. He now has flesh that does not get tired, does not feel pain, does not grow old, does not die.

    When Jesus was mortal and now that he is immortal he had been given powers in his mind that came from YHWH opening pathways in his brain, giving him wisdom. This is how he was able as a MORTAL human to walk on water. Much of the human brain has been closed off, YHWH through his Spirit can open up the power of our brains of which makes a human capable of performing signs and miracles, able to control the wind and the water, able to heal people with a word.

    #834789
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    There is no record of Jesus being anointed before the Jordan.

    What is plain is that, under the discipline of his Father, he fed on the food of the wisdom of God, the scriptures, such that by the age of 12 he was able to teach the teachers. He followed the line of blessing of God and that food sustained him and kept him from sinning as it was designed to do.

     

    #834790
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    We o not know what we will be like but we know when he returns we will be alike to him, says scripture.

    NO, you say. We know what we will be like, just the same as the Lord…and when left he was cut and torn, but immortal.

    #834791
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Now you dare to prescribe HOW God resurrects us……by using DNA.

    How far you have travelled from truth.

    #834792
    Jodi
    Participant

    TC,

    There are NOT 2 seeds mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15, there is ONE SEED that is mentioned and that same SEED goes from weakness to power, dishonor to glory. The SEED goes from being a created creature who is ignorant and bound to the fear of death, to a SEED filled with the knowledge of the LORD, that then is freed from the fear of death by receiving eternal life.

     

    #834793
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    You: Adam and Eve died to their spirits in their spirit minds?.
    Religious gobbledegook

    Me: Please explain:

    Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God

     

     

     

    Explain

    #834794
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    Hi Nick:

    You: You do not seem to grasp that CHRIST specifically refers to the ANOINTED MAN.
    It is not a word that is interchangeable with Jesus until the Jordan.
    Jesus of Nazareth was made both Lord and Christ.

    Me:

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Me: The Word or spiritual image of God was one made one with the flesh of man at birth, not at Jordon.

    John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    Me: The spirit descended on Christ to identify him as the anointed one.

    #834795
    NickHassan
    Participant

    H TC,

    At birth?

    Any scriptural support for your idea?

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