Home Christian Writings Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth? Page 338

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 6,741 through 6,760 (of 19,165 total)
123…337338339…957958959
  • Author
    Posts
  • March 17, 2010 at 11:34 pm#183776
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2010,10:53)
    Hi t8:

    Point #3: KJV

    Quote
    Col 1:12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Verse 14 states “in whom we have redemption through his blood” and then verse 15 states “who is the image of the invisible God”.  These verses are referring to Jesus in flesh.  He is the firstborn (in rank) because verse 16 explains that God made every thing that he made by him and for him.  (He is God's heir.)  Verse 17 (He was fore-ordained and is the culmination of God's plan for humanity)

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty! FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION, NOT IN RANK. He is also the firstborn of the death, and that you could say in rank. Because He is the first to be resurrected from the death. So in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning He is first in all……
    Besides written 1:1 John He is the Word of God, and that Word became flesh. Not a plan or intellect, a Spirit Being became flesh.
    If Jesus was in Heaven, and He was, then He had to be Spirit, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and that was true then too.
    Look at
    Rev. 19:13″He was clothed with a robe, dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.
    verse 16 And He had on His robe and His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
    I think we all know that it is Jesus…..
    So why is it so hard to grasp that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before He emptied Himself and became a man for us to save us from eternal death.
    Philippians 2:5-7
    John 8:58 Jesus says this…”Assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
    and in
    John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me.”
    verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
    verse 40
    “And this is the will of Him who send Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
    Now if you deny these Scriptures, you are calling Jesus a liar, and you hurt me not one little bit….
    Also in
    John 17:5 He tells us that
    “And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

    Ask yourself what is Jesus now. I think we all believe that He is seated at the right hand of the Father and is a Spirit Being. And that is what He was before the world was.
    Ask God to give you wisdom and believe what the Scriptures tell you, don't believe me….I did not write them…. it is Jesus talking…..
    Peace and love Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 12:24 am#183781
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2010,10:02)
    Marty

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    No WJ:

    Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.


    Good! Then why disagree with the scriptures? Jesus claim is that “HE” came down from heaven and is not from “Beneath” but from “Above” and that he is not of this world, therefore he is able to choose us “out of this world” how clear is that?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.


    No that is Jesus point…

    And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

    AT Robertson states…

    I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
    The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

    “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

    Why do you not believe him?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.  

    Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?


    That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Quote
    Hebrews 1

    1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


    This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and

    Quote
    Genesis 1
    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


    Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said…

    …BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;

    Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands!

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained:

    Quote
    18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    So what, he was “foreordained before the foundation of the world”, of course it was ordained by the Father and prophesied of his coming into the world. What does that prove? It doesn’t negate Jesus coming into this world, of which he was not of and returning back to where he came from, does it?

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3

    There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. Not the Fathers plan or spoken words!

    Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own!

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


    Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there?

    How about…

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15

    AT Robertson states…

    The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Quote
    Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version)
    10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand?  This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.


    Marty, is it really that important for you to deny the clear meaning of the text in order to support you suppositions? Why would the Father speak of the works of “Jesus hands” if Jesus wasn’t there?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?


    Who says he didn’t know? It was John and Paul that wrote about “all things being made by him and without him nothing came into being”! John 1:3 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:2, 10 It was Jesus that gave them the Revelation by the Holy Spirit! Do you think the Holy Spirit knew this and Jesus didn't?

    He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10  

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.


    That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles!

    Blessings WJ


    No, my Friend WJ:

    I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either. Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture.

    The scriptures are clear that Jesus came from heaven. His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. (You know the scriptures), and the Word of God that he obeyed also came from heaven as it was the Father dwelling within him that was speaking to humanity through him and that he was obeying.

    I also am not of this world. I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I.

    Quote
    John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

    And you say that Hebrews 1:10 is a clear statement that Jesus hands created everything, but then you say that Jesus was in the form of God by virtue of your misinterpretation of Phillipians 2:6. God does not have any literal hands. The scripture state that He is a Spirit. And so, God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time, and as I said before there would not be any need for God to tell him this if he already knew that he created everything. And Hebrews 1:2 indicates that He(God) created every thing, and so how does this lend to a clear statement that Jesus pre-existed?

    John 1:1 The “Logos” was with God in the beginning. God had a plan before the world was created and that plan was to make man in his own image. God made the first man like Himself in that the man was a living soul, with a mind and a free will and emotions, and the Last Adam was made to be the express image of God's person through obedience to His Word.

    You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him. God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind.

    Quote
    John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

    Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world.

    The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh:

    Quote
    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary.

    Quoting from Philippians 2:

    Quote
    3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    By these scriptures the Apostle Paul was using Jesus to show us the example we should follow in humility. Verse 6 is present tense “being in the form of God”, and is speaking of His ministry on this earth as God's Christ, and not in some pre-existing condition.

    What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed?

    The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general.

    And so, here is what one Apostle said:

    Quote
    John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    March 18, 2010 at 12:53 am#183786
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All…………Joh 10:36…..> Say ye of Him whom the FATHER Has Santified, (to (make) holy) as He did with Jesus at the JORDAN by His Baptism there) and sent him into the world, Thou blasphemest; because i said At he Baptism of Jesus. he became a son of GOD.”Thou are my beloved SON (THIS DAY) I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”. This all happened after his berth on earth, Not in some preexistent Past before he was born on earth. IMO

    peace and love………………….gene

    March 18, 2010 at 1:10 am#183790
    942767
    Participant

    Hi t8:

    And this in context:

    Quote
    56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    He did not say anything about seeing Abraham. They misunderstood him. He said “Abraham desired to see my day and he saw it and was glad.” Abraham saw his day by “faith” in what God had promised him, and so, again this does not say he pre-existed. He did exist in the plan of God to bring him forth in the fulness of time. Fore-ordained yes, but no not pre-existing in some other form. His day was when he came forth into this world. This is what Abraham saw.

    And this one:

    Quote
    Revelation 22:16
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star

    Looking up the definition of the word “root”, and appears to mean the same thing as “offspring”, but we do know that by Psalm 110 David saw Jesus as his Lord by the Spirit.

    Anything else that I did not address, simply means that Jesus was fore-ordained.

    And so, I am not arguing with scripture, but I do differ in my interpretation of the scriptures if you insist that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    March 18, 2010 at 3:55 am#183821
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2010,12:53)
    To All…………Joh 10:36…..> Say ye of Him whom the FATHER Has Santified, (to (make) holy) as He did with Jesus at the JORDAN by His Baptism there) and sent him into the world, Thou blasphemest; because i said At he Baptism of Jesus.  he became a son of GOD.”Thou are my beloved SON (THIS DAY) I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”. This all happened after his berth on earth,  Not in some preexistent Past before he was born on earth. IMO

    peace and love………………….gene


    Gene! You left out what it also said in King James Bible
    John 10:36
    do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and SEND INTO THE WORLD. You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God.
    John 5:38 :For I have come down from Heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him who send Me.
    verse 39 “This is the will of the Father who send Me, that of whom ……..
    verse 40And this is the will of Him who send Me…….
    Rev, 19:13″He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is, The Word of God.
    verse 16 And on His robe and on His thigh a name is written:”

    KING OF KIN GS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

    We all know who that is…….
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God……
    verse 14 and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    To all why is it so hard to understand that Jesus who was the Spoken Word of God was with the Father before the World was, John 17:5
    If the Word was intellect like you Gene want to believe is that what He is now? Because that is what He said He would do, go back to what He was with His Father before the world was…….

    He became a servant ….
    Read the story starting in verse 6 of Philippians 2

    And then we have Col. 1:15-17 and
    verse 18 tells us that He was also the firstborn of the death, so that in all He may have preeminence. First in all.
    And Rev. 3:14
    How many Scriptures are you and Marty going to deny?????
    Or maybe I should say interpret they way you like them to look like……
    Peace and Love Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 4:02 am#183823
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 18 2010,12:24)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 18 2010,10:02)
    Marty

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    No WJ:

    Not arguing, a servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle apt to teach.


    Good! Then why disagree with the scriptures? Jesus claim is that “HE” came down from heaven and is not from “Beneath” but from “Above” and that he is not of this world, therefore he is able to choose us “out of this world” how clear is that?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And so, your point is that Jesus said he came down from heaven and that he was going back to heaven.


    No that is Jesus point…

    And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; **I AM FROM ABOVE** (NOT I AM GODS PLAN FROM ABOVE): ye are of this world; **I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD**. John 8:23

    AT Robertson states…

    I am from above (egw ek twn anw eimi).
    The contrast is COMPLET IN ORIGIN AND CHARACTER, already stated in (John) 3:31, and calculated to intensify their anger.

    “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all: “he that is of the earth is earthly“, and speaketh of the earth: “HE THAT COMETH FROM ABOVE” is above all. John 3:31

    Why do you not believe him?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And so, tell me how he came down from heaven.  

    Is the “he” that he is speaking of refer to his body, his soul and his spirit?


    That should be pretty obvious to you at this point. Phil 2:6-8, John 1:1, 14

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Quote
    Hebrews 1

    1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


    This says “by whom also he(God) made the worlds, and

    Quote
    Genesis 1
    1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


    Ok, and just how did he do that by Jesus if he was not there? The writer didn’t’ say “by his plan, which is Jesus he made the worlds” did he? He said…

    …BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;

    Then he confirms it in verse 10 of the same chapter through Jesus own hands!

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    And 1 Peter states that Jesus was fore-ordained:

    Quote
    18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    So what, he was “foreordained before the foundation of the world”, of course it was ordained by the Father and prophesied of his coming into the world. What does that prove? It doesn’t negate Jesus coming into this world, of which he was not of and returning back to where he came from, does it?

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had (Greek echō = to have [hold] in the hand) with thee” before the world was. John 17:3

    There is that nasty word that you guys don't like again, “I“. Not the Fathers plan or spoken words!

    Here we see the Greek word for **had** is in the 'active voice' meaning that Jesus literally was holding the Fathers Glory! Not some plan that cannot act on its own!

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

    13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
    20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


    Did you notice that the words “by the Plan or thoughts” all things were created are not there?

    How about…

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature: (Gr = Firstborn of All Creation) verse 15

    AT Robertson states…

    The use of this word does not show what Arius argued that Paul regarded Christ as a creature like “all creation” (pash ktisew, by metonomy the act regarded as result). It is rather the comparative (superlative) force of prwto that is used (first-born of all creation) as in Colossians 1:18 ; Romans 8:29 ; Hebrews 1:6 ; Hebrews 12:23 ; Revelation 1:5 . Paul is here refuting the Gnostics who pictured Christ as one of the aeons by placing him before “all creation” (angels and men).” Like eikwn we find prwtotoko in the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logo teaching (Philo) as well as in the LXX. Paul takes both words to
    help express the deity of Jesus Christ in his relation to the Father as eikwn (Image) and to the universe as prwtotoko (First-born).

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Quote
    Hebrews 1:10 (King James Version)
    10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

    Why would God have to tell Jesus that he laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens were the work of his hand?  This can only mean that Jesus was the reason that God created every thing.


    Marty, is it really that important for you to deny the clear meaning of the text in order to support you suppositions? Why would the Father speak of the works of “Jesus hands” if Jesus wasn’t there?

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Otherwise, would Jesus not have known that he created every thing himself?


    Who says he didn’t know? It was John and Paul that wrote about “all things being made by him and without him nothing came into being”! John 1:3 – Col 1:16, 17 – Heb 1:2, 10 It was Jesus that gave them the Revelation by the Holy Spirit! Do you think the Holy Spirit knew this and Jesus didn't?

    He was in the world, and “THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM”, and the world knew him not. John 1:10  

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 16 2010,18:14)

    Jesus exists now, and thank God that he does, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person before his birth into this world.


    That is your opinion and not the opinion of the scriptures or the Apostles!

    Blessings WJ


    No, my Friend WJ:

    I am not arguing with scripture, and I am not arguing with you either.  Only, I do not agree with your intretation of scripture.

    The scriptures are clear that Jesus came from heaven.  His body was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary. (You know the scriptures), and the Word of God that he obeyed also came from heaven as it was the Father dwelling within him that was speaking to humanity through him and that he was obeying.  

    I also am not of this world.  I am in this world just as he was in the world but he was not of this world and neither am I.

    Quote
    John 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world

    And you say that Hebrews 1:10 is a clear statement that Jesus hands created everything, but then you say that Jesus was in the form of God by virtue of your misinterpretation of Phillipians 2:6.  God does not have any literal hands.  The scripture state that He is a Spirit.  And so, God was speaking to him in the flesh and referring to his hands in that present moment of time, and as I said before there would not be any need for God to tell him this if he already knew that he created everything.  And Hebrews 1:2 indicates that He(God) created every thing, and so how does this lend to a clear statement that Jesus pre-existed?

    John 1:1 The “Logos” was with God in the beginning.  God had a plan before the world was created and that plan was to make man in his own image.  God made the first man like Himself in that the man was  a living soul, with a mind and a free will and emotions, and the Last Adam was made to be the express image of God's person through obedience to His Word.

    You quote the following to support your suppostion that Jesus pre-existed, but the verse says the world was made by him.  God made the worlds and every thing in them with him in mind.

    Quote
    John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

    Where does this verse say that he pre-existed his birth into this world.

    The following verse states that Word of God was made flesh:

    Quote
    14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    And the information in the brackets tell us that this is speaking of when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world from the virgin Mary.

    Quoting from Philippians 2:

    Quote
    3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

    5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    By these scriptures the Apostle Paul was using Jesus to show us the example we should follow in humility.  Verse 6 is present tense “being in the form of God”, and is speaking of His ministry on this earth as God's Christ, and not in some pre-existing condition.

    What Apostle came out and said that Jesus pre-existed?

    The Apostle Peter said that he was fore-ordained, and my opinion that Jesus did not pre-exist as a sentient person is based on this scripture along with my understanding of the scriptures in general.

    And so, here is what one Apostle said:

    Quote
    John 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    As for the quote from A.T. Robertson, he is stating his opinion, and so why would you want to quote him as if he were an Apostle?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty You might not be arguing with Scripture, but you are certainly denying Scriptures. Many Scriptures, not just one…..Take them all and study them…..I did a long time ago. I was just like you and said Oh, no…….But God did not leave me in that way…….And also it has nothing to do with the trinity. Jesus had a beginning….He did not always existed.
    Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 4:11 am#183825
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

    If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

    and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

    How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

    What literally came down from heaven?

    Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

    Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?

    March 18, 2010 at 5:26 am#183833
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    i follow your logic and it does not stand against what T8 says

    Please!  I am voicing contempt in this answer.   Then when and where does scripture tell us that Jesus was born?  Does or does not scripture tell us that Abraham is Jesus’ ancestor? Are you afraid to answer those questions because it makes you look foolish for interpreting Jesus’ words according to a lie told long ago?   I hardly see why since all humans, except Jesus, are fooled at times.  But please do not let your embarrassment prevent you from embracing the truth that you too fell for Satan’s snares.   Instead change your ways.

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    and if you want to use the expression that the scriptures are false in any way ,then i say you do not have any faith to stand on.

    I do not in any way say scripture is false.  I rather state that T8’s interpretation of scripture, though perhaps understandable for one not completely familiar with scripture, is a lie and a snare set by the evil one.

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    so show your scriptures views, versus the scriptures view of T8 and let go from there and see.

    I did do that.  I pointed out the obvious flaw in T8’s interpretation and then went on to express a possible alternative interpretation.   We know that Jesus spoke in riddles that even left those students nearest to him stumped at times, John 2:19-22.

    My alternative interpretation rest on the scripture in Hebrews 11:40, which teaches us that Abraham and the others that came before the second covenant were only made perfect with those who were born anew under the new covenant.   In this way we can say Abraham was “born” under the new covenant and that believers are “baptized for the dead.”  I assure you that Jesus was before the new covenant came to be.

    You may take my response at harsh but I assure your that I care about you and worded my response according to that care.  It is the ideas and not you I voice my contempt for.

    March 18, 2010 at 6:34 am#183837
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)
    Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

    If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

    and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

    How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

    What literally came down from heaven?

    Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

    Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?


    Jodi! I am not God and I did not write those Scriptures. Take it up with them….I will forever defend Scriptures rather then men. And Scriptures tell me that Jesus was the Word in the beginning and became flesh. With God all is possible. How He was brought forth is not revealed. Only that He did come down from Heaven John 6:38-40
    When I read a Scripture like Rev. 19:13 I have to admit that it is Jesus that is revealed there. And I will. If anybody else does not, then they are missing out on the truth.
    Rev. 19:13 again
    “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.
    verse 16 And on His robe and thigh is a name written:”
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    We all know it is Jesus. There is no other being that fits this verse….
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
    verse 14 and the Word became flesh…..
    Just these Scriptures is plain as can be and you and Gene want forever ignore them, why. Is it behind you to say I was wrong???
    He was the firstborn of all creation. Rev. and Col. talks about that. And then it says that before Abraham. I was.
    All those Scriptures and still you will deny and deny…..
    Again how God created Jesus and brought Him forth is not revealed, but Scriptures say so and I will defend it forever……..
    When Jesus became a man, He became like a servant
    Philippians talks about that in the second Chapter startring in verse5 read it….
    Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 6:53 am#183841
    Jodi Lee
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 18 2010,18:34)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)
    Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

    If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

    and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

    How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

    What literally came down from heaven?

    Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

    Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?


    Jodi!  I am not God and I did not write those Scriptures.  Take it up with them….I will forever defend Scriptures rather then men.  And Scriptures tell me that Jesus was the Word in the beginning and became flesh.  With God all is possible.   How He was brought forth is not revealed.  Only that He did come down from Heaven John 6:38-40
    When I read a Scripture like Rev. 19:13 I have to admit that it is Jesus that is revealed there.  And I will.  If anybody else does not, then they are missing out on the truth.
    Rev. 19:13 again
    “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.  
    verse 16 And on His robe and thigh is a name written:”
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    We all know it is Jesus.  There is no other being that fits this verse….
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
    verse 14 and the Word became flesh…..
    Just these Scriptures is plain as can be and you and Gene want forever ignore them, why.  Is it behind you to say I was wrong???
    He was the firstborn of all creation.  Rev. and Col. talks about that.  And then it says that before Abraham. I was.
    All those Scriptures and still you will deny and deny…..
    Again how God created Jesus and brought Him forth is not revealed, but Scriptures say so and I will defend it forever……..
    When Jesus became a man, He became like a servant
    Philippians talks about that in the second Chapter startring in verse5 read it….
    Irene


    So YOU can't tell me what came down from heaven?

    I will tell you, the Son of Man, who was promised to come.

    and who is returning? Some spirit being?…NO, the SON OF MAN!!

    March 18, 2010 at 9:32 am#183849
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,18:53)

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 18 2010,18:34)

    Quote (Jodi Lee @ Mar. 18 2010,16:11)
    Irene, how did your pre-existent Jesus become a Son of God?… how was he perfected?

    If we are to be raised as Jesus before he was Jesus, why all this human business?….why weren't we just made like he was THROUGH the SAME process he was made?

    and could you tell me exactly when and what it was exactly that came down from heaven that morphed into Mary's womb?

    How do you explain Jesus being made in Mary's womb of the seed of David through the Holy Spirit and coming down from heaven literally?

    What literally came down from heaven?

    Was the spirit son you believe in a man before he came down from heaven, if not, what was he and what was his name?

    Also, you say “spirit being” as in relating to what Jesus went back to, but those words are not found in scripture, could you elaborate on what that means, and show us through scripture?


    Jodi!  I am not God and I did not write those Scriptures.  Take it up with them….I will forever defend Scriptures rather then men.  And Scriptures tell me that Jesus was the Word in the beginning and became flesh.  With God all is possible.   How He was brought forth is not revealed.  Only that He did come down from Heaven John 6:38-40
    When I read a Scripture like Rev. 19:13 I have to admit that it is Jesus that is revealed there.  And I will.  If anybody else does not, then they are missing out on the truth.
    Rev. 19:13 again
    “He was clothed in a robe dipped in blood and His name is The Word of God.  
    verse 16 And on His robe and thigh is a name written:”
    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    We all know it is Jesus.  There is no other being that fits this verse….
    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.
    verse 14 and the Word became flesh…..
    Just these Scriptures is plain as can be and you and Gene want forever ignore them, why.  Is it behind you to say I was wrong???
    He was the firstborn of all creation.  Rev. and Col. talks about that.  And then it says that before Abraham. I was.
    All those Scriptures and still you will deny and deny…..
    Again how God created Jesus and brought Him forth is not revealed, but Scriptures say so and I will defend it forever……..
    When Jesus became a man, He became like a servant
    Philippians talks about that in the second Chapter startring in verse5 read it….
    Irene


    So YOU can't tell me what came down from heaven?

    I will tell you, the Son of Man, who was promised to come.

    and who is returning?  Some spirit being?…NO, the SON OF MAN!!


    A Man went back to Heaven, Jesus as a man? Are you kidding me.
    John 17:5 tells it differently.

    He had a glory with the Father before the worlds was, and to that glory He went back to.
    Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God. What is that glory that He had with the Father before the world was. Flesh? no. In John 1:1 He was the Word first and then He became flesh. Scripture would not have to say that if He was flesh already in Heaven… That is poor nonsense. Now you are grasping for straws. You also asking really stupid question like what was His name….. Rev. tells us His name is The Word of God. You don't believe that? If God gave Him some other name it is not known or revealed. And it does not matter. He is The Word of God. That is not good enough for you….? well to bad….You seem not to understand that God had to send His only begotten Son to save us. Another Human being would have sinned. Jesus was not just a mere man, that to is a myth. He knew where He came from , otherwise He could have never said what He did in John 17:5
    Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 3:36 pm#183854
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 18 2010,17:26)
    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    i follow your logic and it does not stand against what T8 says

    Please!  I am voicing contempt in this answer.   Then when and where does scripture tell us that Jesus was born?  Does or does not scripture tell us that Abraham is Jesus’ ancestor? Are you afraid to answer those questions because it makes you look foolish for interpreting Jesus’ words according to a lie told long ago?   I hardly see why since all humans, except Jesus, are fooled at times.  But please do not let your embarrassment prevent you from embracing the truth that you too fell for Satan’s snares.   Instead change your ways.

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    and if you want to use the expression that the scriptures are false in any way ,then i say you do not have any faith to stand on.

    I do not in any way say scripture is false.  I rather state that T8’s interpretation of scripture, though perhaps understandable for one not completely familiar with scripture, is a lie and a snare set by the evil one.

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    so show your scriptures views, versus the scriptures view of T8 and let go from there and see.

    I did do that.  I pointed out the obvious flaw in T8’s interpretation and then went on to express a possible alternative interpretation.   We know that Jesus spoke in riddles that even left those students nearest to him stumped at times, John 2:19-22.

    My alternative interpretation rest on the scripture in Hebrews 11:40, which teaches us that Abraham and the others that came before the second covenant were only made perfect with those who were born anew under the new covenant.   In this way we can say Abraham was “born” under the new covenant and that believers are “baptized for the dead.”  I assure you that Jesus was before the new covenant came to be.

    You may take my response at harsh but I assure your that I care about you and worded my response according to that care.  It is the ideas and not you I voice my contempt for.


    KW

    first;the scriptures (OT)is full of Gods announcement of the coming of Christ,like this;Ps 98:1 Sing to the LORD a new song,
    for he has done marvelous things;
    his right hand and his holy arm(Christ)(the Word)
    have worked salvation for him.

    Isa 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice
    and will make them see his arm coming down
    with raging anger and consuming fire,
    with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

    Isa 30:30 The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice
    and will make them see his arm coming down
    with raging anger and consuming fire,
    with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

    Isa 40:10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
    and his arm rules for him.
    See, his reward is with him,
    and his recompense accompanies him

    Isa 50:2 When I came, why was there no one?
    When I called, why was there no one to answer?
    Was my arm too short to ransom you?
    Do I lack the strength to rescue you?

    Isa 51:5 My righteousness draws near speedily,
    my salvation is on the way,
    and my arm will bring justice to the nations

    Isa 52:10 The LORD will lay bare his holy arm
    in the sight of all the nations,
    and all the ends of the earth will see
    the salvation of our God.

    Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

    Isa 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
    nor his ear too dull to hear.

    Isa 62:8 The LORD has sworn by his right hand
    and by his mighty arm:
    “Never again will I give your grain
    as food for your enemies,
    and never again will foreigners drink the new wine
    for which you have toiled;

    Isa 63:12 who sent his glorious arm of power
    to be at Moses’ right hand,
    who divided the waters before them,
    to gain for himself everlasting renown,

    IS THIS iSA;63;12 NOT WHAT CHRIST CAME TO DO TO DIVIDE THE PEOPLE IN TWO ,THE ONE WHO COME TO THE LIGHT AND THE ONES WHO DONT.

    HIS GOD RIGH ARM A MAN?? NO HE IS NOT,HE IS LIKE JOHN SAYS HE IS THE WORD OF GOD,THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD,

    WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN,TO SERVE GOD CREATION,BECAUSE MEN HAD FAIL TO OBEY HIS WILL ,AND WAS NOW CORRUPT,NO MAN ON THIS PLANET COULD EVER BE MADE GOOD FOR THE RANSOM.

    IT HAD TO COMING FROM ABOVE,

    BUT THERE ARE TO MANY THOMAS 'S UNLESS WE SEE AND TOUCH WE WILL NOT BELIEVE ,

    SO THEY WANT TO SEE AND TOUCH WHIT THE EYES AND HANDS OF THE FLESH.

    “HAPPY ARE THE ONES WHO DO NOT SEE AND BELIEVE”

    SEE AND TOUCH WITH THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH FROM ABOVE.

    THIS IS MY ANSWER TO YOU FOR NOW.

    March 18, 2010 at 4:53 pm#183857
    kerwin
    Participant

    terraricca,

    I agree with you that the Old Testament often testifies about the coming of Jesus.  I want to point out to you that some of that was “hidden” in scriptures so it could only be understood through hindsight.   Judas betrayal was one such event as was Jesus being called out of Egypt as a child.

    Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected.   His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

    God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses.  Numbers 12:8

    You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.  

    His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times.   To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

    Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

    James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

    Quote

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.

    March 18, 2010 at 5:17 pm#183860
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)
    terraricca,

    I agree with you that the Old Testament often testifies about the coming of Jesus.  I want to point out to you that some of that was “hidden” in scriptures so it could only be understood through hindsight.   Judas betrayal was one such event as was Jesus being called out of Egypt as a child.

    Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected.   His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

    God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses.  Numbers 12:8

    You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.  

    His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times.   To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

    Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

    James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

    Quote

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.


    KW

    Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

    and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

    March 18, 2010 at 5:30 pm#183863
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terricca wrote:

    Quote

    Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

    and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.

    I agree that God said let the Anointed One be and Jesus was conceived of the line of David.  I also agree that Jesus lives a life of righteousness even though he was tempted even as we are.  For that act of righteousness the evil one put him to death. For Jesus choice to die in righteousness sin was condemned with sinful men that those that obeyed all his teachings are rescued from the results of Adam's sin.

    March 18, 2010 at 9:31 pm#183881
    Elizabeth
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,05:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)
    terraricca,

    I agree with you that the Old Testament often testifies about the coming of Jesus.  I want to point out to you that some of that was “hidden” in scriptures so it could only be understood through hindsight.   Judas betrayal was one such event as was Jesus being called out of Egypt as a child.

    Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected.   His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

    God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses.  Numbers 12:8

    You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.  

    His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times.   To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

    Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

    James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

    Quote

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.


    KW

    Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

    and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.


    terriacca!  The Word is not the Fathers Word.  It is Jesus.  Did the Father in verse 14 bcome flesh or did the Word become flesh that was named Jesus as a Human being.   When He was with the Father and in
    Rev. 19:13 His name is The Word of God.  This is what it says again:” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
               KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    I think we all know who that is, Jesus our Savior and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
    Irene

    March 18, 2010 at 9:54 pm#183885
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 19 2010,09:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,05:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 19 2010,04:53)
    terraricca,

    I agree with you that the Old Testament often testifies about the coming of Jesus.  I want to point out to you that some of that was “hidden” in scriptures so it could only be understood through hindsight.   Judas betrayal was one such event as was Jesus being called out of Egypt as a child.

    Jesus spoke in parables which I would call riddles quite often and not necessary when expected.   His students even remarked on this in John 16:29 and he himself tells about it in John 16:25.

    God himself also used riddles to communicate though he would communicate more clearly with some such as Mosses.  Numbers 12:8

    You should take this into consideration when interpreting scripture.  

    His follows also speak in riddles at times but they are also clear spoken at other times.   To decipher these “riddles” you need to focus on the things of God.

    Here is a scripture that may help in this situation.

    James 1:17(NKJV) reads:

    Quote

    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

    Jesus is a good and perfect gift from God.


    KW

    Christ gift is from God because he allowed his Word to become flesh on earth to serve as ransom for men,

    and so save the human race from the sin of Adam.


    terriacca!  The Word is not the Fathers Word.  It is Jesus.  Did the Father in verse 14 bcome flesh or did the Word become flesh that was named Jesus as a Human being.   When He was with the Father and in
    Rev. 19:13 His name is The Word of God.  This is what it says again:” He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
               KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    I think we all know who that is, Jesus our Savior and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
    Irene


    Irene

    the” word” is Jesus i am sorry if i did not make it more evident.but since the arm is Jesus and also the word so i figure it was enough.

    March 18, 2010 at 9:56 pm#183886
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Mrs:

    You say to terriacca:

    Quote
    The Word is not the Fathers Word. It is Jesus.

    Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood. The above statement proves it.

    When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

    I am not going to argue with you. I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do. I do not. I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.

    And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body. No blood in this body.

    Here is what the scripture states:

    Quote
    1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    March 18, 2010 at 10:23 pm#183889
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,09:56)
    Hi Mrs:

    You say to terriacca:

    Quote
    The Word is not the Fathers Word.  It is Jesus.

    Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood.  The above statement proves it.

    When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being  conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

    I am not going to argue with you.  I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do.  I do not.  I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.

    And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body.  No blood in this body.

    Here is what the scripture states:

    Quote
    1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Irene should know that i believe in the preexistence of Jesus,

    my quotes testify to that,

    what you say is true about Jesus but that does not eliminate that he was beside God before being or becoming Jesus.

    and this for multi reasons.

    March 18, 2010 at 10:59 pm#183895
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 19 2010,10:23)

    Quote (942767 @ Mar. 19 2010,09:56)
    Hi Mrs:

    You say to terriacca:

    Quote
    The Word is not the Fathers Word.  It is Jesus.

    Mrs. you are trying to force us to believe what you have apparently misunderstood.  The above statement proves it.

    When the scriptures state, “The Word was made flesh”, they are speaking of the prophetic Word of God pertaining to Jesus being  conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

    I am not going to argue with you.  I already know what you believe, and if you want to go on believing that Jesus pre-existed go right ahead, but quit trying to force me to believe and understand the scriptures the way that you do.  I do not.  I believe that he was fore-ordained not that he pre-existed.

    And he is at the right hand of the Father still as a man but with a spiritual body.  No blood in this body.

    Here is what the scripture states:

    Quote
    1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    The scripture states that the mediator is a man, and that the man is Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Irene should know that i believe in the preexistence of Jesus,

    my quotes testify to that,

    what you say is true about Jesus but that does not eliminate that he was beside God before being or becoming Jesus.

    and this for multi reasons.


    Hi T and Mrs.

    I do not believe that he pre-exissted but that he was fore-ordained.

    Although, I am having to do a double take on Colossians 1:15 because of the words “first born of every creature”.  I said first in rank because Strong's Concordance does not have a clear definition for “firstborn”, but one of the root words suggest that it is first in rank.

    But the transliteration of that scripture from the Greek interlinear is THE BEFORE-most-BROUGHT FORTH OF EVERY CREATION.

    I am not a Greek scholar and so I can say for a fact that the word “firstborn” is a mistranslation, but I believe that in order for this to be consistent with other scripture, it would probably mean fore-ordained before all of creation.  The following scriptures tell us why this is indicated in that it says:

    Quote
    16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    And,

    Quote
    1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    I may be wrong but I can only believe that he was fore-ordained to be brought forth into the world by the express action of God at the particular point in time that he was conceived fo the Holy Ghost in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

    Anyway, I am in prayer asking God to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will, and will gladly accept my correction if He shows me that I am wrong.  I do not want to teach anything that is not His Word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 6,741 through 6,760 (of 19,165 total)
123…337338339…957958959
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
ACTIVE TOPICS
POPULAR TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account