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Does God torment the wicked forever?

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According to the Bible, The Second Death doesn’t allow anyone to be tormented in Hell for eternity as some think. It is written clearly in scripture that Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire and the heavens and earth too. Then behold, there is a new earth and heavens and no more sin.

God is good and only the righteous inherit eternal life. Some people think the Bible teaches that the wicked will have eternal life in hell, that is wrong on three points.

  1. The wicked do not inherit eternal life, (John 3:16).
  2. The human soul is not eternal, (Matthew 10:28);
  3. While Hell is a place of torment, it is not eternal as it is thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14);

Eternal judgement is what it says it is. It is a judgement that is eternal. If the wicked perish, it means they perish for eternity. They will never have life. But God has the last say in all things. While the soul that sins will die, God did find a way to save sinners.

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  • November 18, 2018 at 4:00 am#835582
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Anthony…..Good post, yes those words HADES , SHEOL. HELL, all simply mean the GRAVE.  Not a place where the dead are still alive. Good job.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    November 19, 2018 at 4:32 am#835608
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All

    Scripture use of the words “death” and “destruction.”
    The opinion of the annihilation of the wicked, which has at different times been held by some, as a refuge from the doctrine of never-ending punishment, is not only opposed to the whole analogy of our regeneration, which shews how death and judgment are the only way of life and deliverance for a fallen creature, but also so directly contradicts what is said of “death” in Scripture, that it is difficult to conceive how it could ever have been accepted by believers. Even before the reason of the Cross is seen, the very letter of Scripture, one might have thought, would have kept men from concluding that the “death,” “destruction,” and “perishing,” of the wicked means their non-existence or annihilation. For what is “death”? What is “destruction”? How are these words invariably used in Holy Scripture?

    First, as to “death,” are any of the varied deaths, which Scripture speaks of as incident to man, his non-existence or annihilation? Take as examples the deaths referred to by St. Paul, in the sixth, seventh, and eighth chapters of the Epistle to the Romans. We read, (Rom. 6:7,) “He that is dead is freed from sin.” Is this “death,” which is freedom from sin, non-existence or annihilation? Again, where the Apostle says, (Rom. 7:9,) “I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died,”—was this “death,” wrought in him by the law, annihilation? Again, where he says, (Rom. 8:6,) “To be carnally minded is death,” is this death non-existence or annihilation? And again, when he says, (Rom. 8:38,) “Neither death nor life shall separate us,” is the “death” here referred to annihilation? When Adam died on the day he sinned, (Gen. 2:17,) was this annihilation? When his body died, and turned to dust, (Gen. 5:5,) was this annihilation? Is our “death in trespasses and sins,” (Eph. 2:1-2,) annihilation? Is our “death to sin,” (Rom. 6:11,) annihilation? When the “corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies,” (John 12:24,) is it annihilated; or is St. Paul right in saying, (1 Cor. 15:37,) “That which thou sowest is not quickened except it die?” Do not these and similar uses of the word prove beyond all question, that whatever else these deaths may be, not one of them is non-existence or annihilation? On what grounds, I ask, are we to assign a sense to this particular death which confessedly the word “death” has not and cannot have elsewhere? Where is the proof that there is and can be no resurrection from the second death? The truth is, death for man is simply an end to, and separation from, some given form of life which he has lived in. Death to God is separation from His world of light, by the destruction, through the lie of the serpent, of the divine life of light and love in us. Death to sin, the exact converse of this, is the separation from the world of darkness, by the destruction, through the truth, of the dark life of unbelief and self-love. The death wrought by the law is the end of, and separation from, our fallen carnal life of self-sufficiency; while what is commonly called death, namely the death of the body, is simply our separation from the outward world, in which we live, as partakers of its outward life, while we are in the body.  Let us see that there are three worlds, each having its own life,—a light world, a dark world, and this outward seen world,—and then what is said in Scripture of the new birth, or of the varied deaths we pass through, becomes at once self-evident. For the only way into any world is by a birth into it, even as the only way out of any world is by a death to it. We have by sin died to God’s light-world, to fall into and live in a spirit-world of darkness. We must by the truth, that is by Christ, die to this dark spirit-world, to return to live in God’s light-world. The outward birth and death of the body, and its life, have only to do with the outward seen world.

    For this reason it is that the word “destruction,” as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the 90th Psalm, “Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men.” Can “destruction” here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God’s kingdom. So, again, Job says, (Job 19:10,) “He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone”; and again, (Job 9:22,) “This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.” But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the “perfect” will be so destroyed that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Pet. 3:6,) “The world that then was perished.” So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. 1:11-12,) “They shall perish, . . . and be changed.” So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. 30:18; Jer. 12:17; 15:6;) that they shall be “destroyed” and “perish.” But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated? So, again, as to the expression, “them that perish,” sometimes translated “the lost”; (see 2 Cor. 4:3; 1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15;) do we not know that these “lost,” though they “perish,” still exist, and exist both as “lost” ones and as “saved” ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (Isa. 57:1;) “The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart”;—is this “perishing” non-existence? So, again, where we read, in Psalm 83:16-18, “Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men” (literally “they,” for the word “men” is not in the Original,) “may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;”—men are to be “confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah.” So as to the question, “Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in destruction?”—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the “losing” or “destruction” of our fallen life the only way to a better one? Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (Matt. 10:39; 16:25; John 12:25;) that the way to “save our life,” or “soul,” is to “lose it,” or “have it destroyed,” in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?

    These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (Matt. 10:39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see Matt. 10:28,) with those other well-known words, as to “fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell,” which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that “destruction” must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats this self-same word, “destroy,” (in our Authorized Version translated (“lose“) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is “that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Rom. 6:6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A “new man” is created in them, and the “old man” dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like “dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things”; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that “by death God destroys him that has the power of death.” Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular form of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.

    As for the argument, founded by some on the word destruction, that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though “destroyed” are yet “saved.” To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:—”The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost:” ( Luke 19:10.)  the New Testament use of the word proves that it describes, not so much preservation from future or threatened judgment, (in which case  would be used, as in John 17:15, Rev. 3:10, Jude 1, 1 Thess.5:23,  but rather deliverance out of some present and oppressing evil. So we read, (Matt. 9:21-22,) “And the woman said within herself, if I may but touch His garment, I shall be made whole,” that is restored to health; “and the woman, was made whole,” that is restored to health, “from that hour.” So again, (Mark 5:23,) “And Jairus besought Him greatly, saying, I pray Thee, lay Thy hands upon her, that she may be healed.” So too, (Mark 6:56,) “And as many as touched Him, were made whole.” So too, in reference to Lazarus, (John 11:12,) “Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well,” that is, he shall be restored to health. See also Luke 8:36; 18:42; Acts 4:9; James 5:15; &c. See also what is said of our Lord, (Heb. 5:7,) that “in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers unto Him that was able to save Him from death,(literally “out of death,”) “He was heard in that He feared.” But He was not preserved from death, but delivered out of it. Our salvation also, like our Lord’s, for we are His members, is not from death, but by it, and out of it. God bless

    November 19, 2018 at 5:46 am#835610
    Anthony
    Participant

    To All

    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?
    Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”
    — Psalm 88:10-11.

    Think about this scripture and give me a Yes or No.   God bless

    November 19, 2018 at 8:08 am#835615
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Is God faithful? yes.

    Does He forget His children who die?

    No. But all are not His children. Walk in the light and with care.

     

    November 19, 2018 at 9:26 am#835616
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    The first-born and first-fruits are the “few” and “little flock;” but these, though first delivered from the curse, have a relation to the whole creation, which shall be saved in the appointed times by the first-born seed, that is by Christ and His body, through those appointed baptisms, whether of fire or water, which are required to bring about “the restitution of all things.” St. Paul expressly declares this when he says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in the earth, even in Him.” (Eph. 1:3-10. The same doctrine is stated in almost the same words, Eph. 2:4-7.) The Church, like Christ its Head, is itself a great sacrament; “an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto men; ordained by God Himself, as a means whereby they may receive the same, and a pledge to assure them thereof;” and “the blessing” of the elect, “with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,” is but the means and pledge, as the Apostle says, of wider blessing; the means by which “in the dispensation of the fulness of times” God designs to “gather together in one all things in Christ, whether they be things which are in heaven or which are in earth, even in Him;” and the pledge that He both can and will do it, as He has already done it in some of the weakest and the worst; for “God hath chosen the base things of the world, yea and things which are not” (1 Cor. 1:27-28); to shew to all that there are none so weak but He can save, and none so vile, but He can change and cleanse them.

    Nick all creation, which now groans, shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Rom. 8:19-23). In another place he declares, that “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19), and that Christ “took our flesh and blood, through death to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb. 2:14); that “if by the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many” (Rom. 5:15): that “therefore as by the offence of one, or by one offence, judgment came on all to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, or by one righteousness, the free gift should come on all unto justification of life,” while “they which receive abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17-18); that “as sin hath reigned unto death, so grace might reign unto eternal life,” yea, that “where sin abounded, grace did yet much more abound” (Rom. 5:20-21). To another church he states the same doctrine, that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22); and that “the end” shall not come “till all are subject to Him,” that “God may be,” not all in some, but “all in all; for He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So he says again, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him” (Eph. 1:3-10).

    Nick “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22); and that “the end” shall not come “till all are subject to Him,” that “God may be,” not all in some, but “all in all; for He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet; the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:24-28). So he says again, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, … that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him” (Eph. 1:3-10)

    Nick all died,  all alive. There no  difference.              God bless Nick

     

    November 19, 2018 at 9:42 am#835617
    Anthony
    Participant

    Nick   If the unjust  are in the grave which they are. what would be the purpose to resurrect them to be judged, to put them in a non-existenting state again, are you telling me that there’s are different degrees of non- exsitentens?             God bless Nick

    November 19, 2018 at 10:37 am#835618
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Those who reject the offer of salvation in the Son can expect the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Repent and be reborn into the Son by water and the Spirit while there is time.

    November 19, 2018 at 10:46 am#835619
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    The letters of the apostles are not written to the world but to the ones who have the obeyed the call of God to be rescued.

    He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,

    but the wrath of God abides in him.

    jn 3.36

    November 19, 2018 at 11:43 am#835622
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Yes. All are resurrected.

    Every behaviour of every man is recorded and faces examination.

    Heb 9.27

    And inasmuch, as is appointed for men to die once, and after this comes judgement .

    November 19, 2018 at 1:52 pm#835626
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    It’s only by the Father that you come to Jesus Christ, He brings you to repentance, (for some through fire) the  Father will draw all men if not in this age in the ages to come. In one man (Adam) came death to all,  in (Christ) came life for all of His creation, every last one.                     God bless.

    November 19, 2018 at 2:11 pm#835627
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Some fanciful theories are around that claim all will be saved.

    Such silly ideas make light of the ransom paid by our lord Jesus Christ.

    See to it that you do not refuse Him Who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape who turn away from Him Who warns from heaven. Heb 12.25

    November 19, 2018 at 2:27 pm#835628
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Even those who have been rescued by being baptised into the death of Jesus must watch their steps.

    Heb 10

    For if we go on sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth,

    there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgement,

    and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

    November 19, 2018 at 2:47 pm#835629
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Why do you join with those who show contempt for the ways of God?

    Jn 3.16

    For God so loved the world , that He gave His only begotten Son,

    that whoever believes in him should not perish , but have eternal life.

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world;

    but that the world should be saved through him.

    Rom 11

    For if God did not spare the natural branches neither will He spare you.

    November 20, 2018 at 2:14 am#835649
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    Yes I agree to that if we continue in sin we will lose out. But it’s not eternal torment or non – existence. What we lose is being part of the firstfruits and the first resurrection and the thousands year reign with The Lord Jesus Christ.

    What I believe is the testimony of Scripture as to the purpose and way of God our Saviour. That Unaversal Salvation, will be judged as false doctrine by those, who, like Israel of old, can see no purpose of God beyond their own dispensation, is as certain as that Israel slew the prophets, and rejected the counsel of God toward sinners of the Gentiles; that it will be hateful also to fallen spirits may be seen from the way in which proud souls in every age rebel against the gospel. Their thought is that they shall continue for ever. Very humbling is it to think that all their pride and rebellion must be overthrown. Even with true souls, who have been teaching another doctrine, there must be special difficulties in receiving a truth which proves them to have been in error. Now therefore, as of old, Samaritans know Christ as “Saviour of the world” (John 4:42), while masters of Israel reject Him in this character. For teachers to learn is to unlearn; and this is not easy. Nor can we expect that those, who occupy the chief seats in the synagogue, will readily descend from them and humble themselves, not only to take the place of learners, but to be reproached for doing so. How can masters of Israel eat their own words? Even those who are willing to be taught are fearful. The consciousness that they are liable to err, and may be deceived, makes them cling to that which they are accustomed to. All these things, and still more our natural hard thoughts of God, are against the spread of the doctrine, But if it be God’s purpose, it shall stand, and each succeeding age shall make it more manifest. God will at last surely cure all men of their mistrust in Him.

    Meanwhile He says, “He that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord” (Jer. 23:28). I do not fear therefore that the declaration of God’s righteousness and love will lead men, as some suppose, to think less of Him. “We are saved by hope” (Rom. 8:24); not by fear.      God bless Nick

     

    November 20, 2018 at 6:48 am#835653
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    After the frstfruits were raised and after the 1000 year reign the second resurrection occurs.

    Rev 20.12

    And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were

    opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged

    from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

    Rev 20.15

    And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

     

    But you believe there is still hope and all are saved?

    Dream on.

    November 21, 2018 at 2:17 am#835692
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    You seem to think that the lake of fire is literal, I think your wrong.

    This is kind of long. 🔥

    The parable of the rich man and Lazarus has been used time and time again to justify the teaching of hell. I have actually heard it preached and in the past when I was spiritually blind, I was unable to discern or interpret the scriptures for myself. Some people will hold steadfast that this is in fact no parable at all but a real story with real facts told by Christ. However, I say that if this “story” is read with the literal eye, one should easily be able to determine that it just doesn’t make sense if we use common logic. There are many holes in this parable if every word is to be taken literally. Part of this problem is that most people do not understand the reason why Jesus spoke in parables. I’ve heard people say that Jesus spoke in parables to make the story easier to understand.  I’ve heard all sorts of explanations but none of those ideas are founded in scripture. Jesus spoke in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of His words because not all people received his message;

    John 10:6 This PARABLE spake Jesus unto them: but they UNDERSTOOD NOT what things they were which he spake unto them. [Even the disciples of Jesus didn’t understand the parables and would ask Jesus to explain them and He would explain it by telling them another parable which of course they still didn’t understand.]

    Now pay close attention to the following passage of scripture below;

    Matthew 13:10-16 And the disciples came, and said unto him, WHY SPEAKEST THOU UNTO THEM IN PARABLES? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you toKNOW THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it is not given. ForWHOSOEVER HATH, to him shall be given, and HE SHALL HAVE MORE ABUNDANCE: butwhosoever hath not, from HIM SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY EVEN THAT HE HATH. THEREFORE SPEAK I TO THEM IN PARABLES: BECAUSE THEY SEEING SEE NOT; AND HEARING THEY HEAR NOT, NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: FOR THIS PEOPLE’S HEART IS WAXED GROSS, and THEIR EARS ARE DULL OF HEARING, and THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

    Reread Matthew 13:10-16 above and pay close attention to the words I’ve placed in bold and underlined. Now look at the two groups of people in the table below;

    Those Who Understand the Parables of ChristThose Who Do Not Understand the Parables of Christ
    (Spiritually Minded)(Carnal Minded)
    Given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heavenNot given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven
    Who has will be given moreWho doesn’t have will be taken away from
    They seeThey don’t see
    They hearThey don’t hear
    They understandThey don’t understand
    Open believing heartHeart waxed gross (hardened heart)
    Spiritually convertedNot spiritually converted

    Now which one of these two groups sounds like you? Do you refuse to believe the word of God which is truth? If so, you willingly accept lies and there isn’t any harmony between lies and truth. You do not understand the meaning of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because your heart is waxed gross. You do not see, hear, or understand because you are carnally minded. Jesus spoke of spiritual matters. Why is this so hard for people to grasp? If you understand but one parable of Christ, you should understand all parables; Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, KNOW YE NOT THIS PARABLE? and HOW THEN WILL YE KNOW ALL PARABLES? All of the parables have a spiritual meaning concerning the Kingdom of God. If you don’t see this, then you are not spiritually converted. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, because THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

    If you really desire to understand the spiritual things of God, then you must let go of all your doubt, your trust in the wisdom of men, and you must destroy all of the idols of your heart. When this happens in your life, you will begin the process of spiritual conversion; John 14:26 But the COMFORTER, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, AND BRING ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    I recently did a Google search on the topic of hell because I was interested in understanding some of the ways people try to use this parable as a defense for the doctrine of hell. I came across one site in which the author made it clear that this was no parable at all but a real story about what happens to the saved and unsaved. Of course they didn’t offer any scriptures to support their heretical theory but I thought it was interesting that this person underlined all three mentions of the word torment as it is used in this parable. How convenient for this person to ignore all of the other words Christ spoke in this parable.

    So moving forward, we can say with confidence that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is indeed a PARABLE. This parable is actually one of several parables that Jesus spoke of to the masses.  Let’s look at the entire parable and examine the scriptures in Luke 16:19-31;

     There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.  Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    For those of you who continually insist that this parable is a real story and should be taken literally, please answer these questions. Is being rich a sin? Is Abraham’s bosom heaven? Can a literal drop of water do anything to quench someone who is being tormented in real fire? Why is flame singular? Why does the rich man have 5 brothers? Can people who are in hell really talk to people in heaven? Why is the beggar in this story named Lazarus?

    If you can’t answer these questions logically, then you have no basis to claim that the story is literal. I don’t believe that Jesus spoke one idle word in his life. I believe all of his words are spiritual with truth in every word that he spoke. If this parable is taken literally, then we would have to assume that Jesus used many idle and insignificant words to convey a message. This is a parable with figures and symbols that need to be explained in order for anyone to understand the meaning.

    Even the first 4 words of this parable “there was a certain” should tell any reader that this is consistent with the beginning of many of Christ’s parables.

    Matthew 21:33 Hear anotherPARABLE: THERE WAS A CERTAIN householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

    Luke 7:41 THERE WAS A CERTAIN creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

    Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, THERE WAS A CERTAIN rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

    Now these 3 scriptures do not prove conclusively that the phrase, “there was a certain” is how you determine if Christ is speaking a parable or not. My point is that it is a fact that Christ used this 4 word phrase to begin other parables including the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

    Luke 16:19 THERE WAS A CERTAIN rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

    Now let’s identify the symbols for the words Christ used in this parable. What is significant about the rich man and the way he dresses? Why is he rich? One small detail that most people overlook is the color of the rich man’s garment – purple. Why purple? If this is literal then why would it really matter? Well it does matter and I will show you with the scriptures. John 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the PURPLE ROBE. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man! [This may seem insignificant but I can assure you that this is very significant. They put a purple robe on Jesus as a mockery because they didn’t really believe that he was the Messiah or the King of the Jews. Purple is historically symbolic for royalty, authority, and wealth.]

    Exodus 39:1-2 And of the blue, and PURPLE, and scarlet, they made cloths of service, to do service in the HOLY PLACE, and made the HOLY GARMENTS FOR AARON; as the Lord commanded Moses. And he made the ephod of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and FINE TWINED LINEN. [Now who is Aaron? Aaron is the older brother of Moses and he was the first priest of Israel which we all know is God’s chosen people.]

    The rich man in this parable is a symbol for God’s chosen people the Israelite’s. For thou art an HOLY PEOPLE unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath CHOSEN THEE TO BE A SPECIAL PEOPLE unto himself, ABOVE ALL PEOPLE that are upon the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6 They had the promises of God (spiritual riches) and they lived as a royal priesthood – that is until they disobeyed. Over time, God blessed his people from the beginning. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a FATHER OF MANY NATIONS have I made thee. Genesis 17:5 [Jacob, whose name was changed to “Israel” was the grandson of Abraham, Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but ISRAEL shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. and he had 12 sons which then became known as the Children of Israel (12 tribes of Israel). And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father’s concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob [Israel] were TWELVE: Genesis 35:22 Out of these 12 tribes, God selected the tribe of “Judah” as the dominant tribe. And the Lord said, JUDAH SHALL GO UP: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand. Judges 1:2 The rich man in this parable represents God’s chosen people, but more specific, the tribe of Judah. This may not seem significant at the moment but this is crucial point in understanding the identity of the rich man. We have another reference in Revelations 5:5, And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. The lion of the tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ as he descended from this line and it was the Jews of Jesus’s day that he was speaking to and referring to as the “rich man”.

    It should be quite simple to identify the beggar Lazarus by sheer comparison. The name Lazarus comes from the Hebrew name Eleazar which means “whom God helps”.  Some will argue that Lazarus is in heaven and heaven is just depicted as Abraham’s bosom in this parable by Jesus. Well if that is true, then we have a major contradiction in the bible. Hebrews 11:13 says, These all DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. This is referring to the prophets and all of the early godly men referred to in the Old Testament including Abraham. How could Lazarus be in heaven being comforted in Abraham’s bosom when this scripture clearly tells us that Abraham died not having received the promises as of yet? Abraham is not in heaven and if he isn’t in heaven, how can Lazarus literally be comforted by Abraham? People will believe anything when they don’t understand the scriptures. We must stay on course with the understanding that this parable isn’t literal but figurative.

    Lazarus in this parable represents the Gentiles – the world outside of God’s chosen people. God’s people (the Jews) treated the Gentiles like dogs who were full of sores (spiritual sickness) and in need of rescue (help from God). Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST, being ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having NO HOPE, and WITHOUT GOD in the world: The Gentiles did not have any of the blessings and spiritual promises of God (spiritually dead) but desired to have just the spiritual crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. The Gentiles were laid at the gate (of the temple which represents the entrance to God) but not allowed to go inside never (to have a relationship with God) but things are about to change.

    In verse 22, we see that something miraculous has occurred. Both die, but Lazarus is carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom and the rich man ends up in hell. What is significant about Lazarus being in the bosom of Abraham? Being in the bosom of someone is a symbol of love and closeness; John 13:23 Now there was leaning on JESUS’ BOSOMone of his disciples, whom JESUS LOVED. Lazarus (the Gentile nation) being in Abraham’s bosom (place of spiritual promise to be loved and close to God) illustrates the roles have switched. Galatians 3:14 That the BLESSING OF ABRAHAM MIGHT COME ON THE GENTILES THROUGH JESUS CHRIST; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Now Lazarus (symbol for the Gentile nation) are now in the place of where the rich man (symbol for God’s chosen people) was. So what was the cause of such a radical change in the status of God’s chosen people and the Gentiles? Let’s see what Jesus had to say about it;

    Matthew 23:33 Ye SERPENTS, ye GENERATION OF VIPERS, how can ye escape the DAMNATION OF HELL [Gehenna – God’s Judgement]? The roles switched because of the arrogance, self-righteousness, and disobedience of the Jews (tribe of Judah). They didn’t see a need to help others, they boasted about having the law of the prophets, and they worshiped themselves but things just changed. Listen to what Jesus says to the churches in Asia in Revelation 3:17, Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: [They worshiped the outwardly things not realizing that it was God who blessed them and they refused to bless others. Spiritually they were wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.]

    This is what is meant when Jesus says, But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. Mark 10:31 The Jews received the promises first but because of their disobedience, they will be last in receiving the promises of the kingdom of God.

    Now the rich man doesn’t understand his condition being tormented in hell and he beseeches Father Abraham for assistance from Lazarus. Notice that the “rich man” identifies Abraham as “Father” which would indicate that he was his symbolic son.  John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, ABRAHAM IS OUR FATHER. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Here is a reference in scripture were the Pharisees (Jews) are telling Jesus who their spiritual father is but notice how Jesus answered them.  Here is but another clue that tells us the identity of the rich man. How ironic that a moment ago, it was Lazarus who desired crumbs to be fed but now it is the rich man asking for the tip of a finger to be dipped in water to cool his tongue. Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their FINGERS. Jesus accurately portrays the scribes and the Pharisees as religious hypocrites. They didn’t practice what they preached and now it is they (the Jews) who are requesting assistance from the Gentiles.

    The rich man is in hell and we should know at this point that this isn’t the pagan hell of Christianity. For the sake of staying on course with interpreting the meaning of this parable, I will explain what hell represents in this parable. We know from our study on all of the Greek words translated as hell – hadēs as it is used in this parable denotes the “grave”.  Nothing occurs in the grave and it is complete darkness. This is a part of what this “hell” represents for the Jews. They are cut off from God and in spiritual darkness. Matthew 8:11-12 And I say unto you, That MANY shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The many coming from the east and west are the Gentiles. The children of the kingdom are the Jews. They will be cast out into hell – the grave or figuratively, outer darkness out of God’s good graces. This parable has absolutely nothing to do with the evil pagan hell that is preached in the Christian church.

    But this parable states that the rich man is being tormented. So this certainly should convey some level of literalness to the parable, right? Wrong. I have covered this already but I will review it again just to be clear on this. Let’s look at these two verses again in Luke;

    Luke 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee SORROWING.

    Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED in this flame.

    Both of these words, “sorrowing” and “tormented” come from the same Greek word odynaō.

    In Luke 2:48, the parents of Jesus are described as “sorrowing” when they lost Jesus in Jerusalem after the feast of the Passover. This of course doesn’t mean physical torment but more of a mental/emotional anguish. This torment does not represent any literal physical pain.

    Now in Luke 16:24 Jesus describes the rich man being “tormented” in this flame. Remember that the word tormented here comes from the same Greek word that means sorrowing. So the rich man in this parable is feeling mental and emotional anguish from being banished from God into darkness.

    Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that THOU SHALT BE NO PRIEST TO ME: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

    For the sake of having a complete understanding of this parable, we need to know that the word “torment” as it is used in verse 23 (and 28), comes from a different Greek word than in verse 24. The word torment in verses 23 and 28 are translated from the Greek word “basanos” which is defined as a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.  It later became known to denote an instrument of torture known as the rack in order to divulge the truth. It is the latter definition that has grown in popular belief as torment due to the depraved nature of the human heart but we see that initially, this word was used to describe a testing of purity in precious metals. This is the true meaning of the word; a testing and this can be described as torment, but not in the physical literal sense.

    So the torment that is described in verses 23 and 28 is referring to a period of “testing” but this is all taking place in a “flame”. When most read this parable, they don’t really pay attention to the words. Did you notice that the word flame is in the singular? The rich man is tormented in a flame. What does the flame represent? Fire has always been symbolic for God’s judgment and now it is directed at His own chosen for their lack of faith and disobedience. There is only one thing that this flame can represent and we have it documented throughout the pages of history towards the Jewish people going back to the days of the early church. It is of course, PERSECUTION…

    Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a GREAT PERSECUTION AGAINST THE CHURCH which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. [The rich man (which is the Jews – Judah) are going through a period of testing in this flame and it is persecution. One would only need to do a brief study of persecution of the Jewish people starting from the days of the early church, anti-Semitism, and up to the Holocaust. Due to their persistent disbelief and lack of faith that ultimately led to the crucifixion of Jesus, this represents God’s judgement on the Jews – the tribe of Judah.]     One more post on 🔥

    November 21, 2018 at 2:25 am#835694
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    You parrot the words of the deceived again.

    Do you have your own thoughts?

    November 21, 2018 at 2:45 am#835695
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    The Lake of Fire.

    Fire in Scripture.

    The lake of fire in scripture is definitely an enigma. Unlike hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is actually a part of scripture and this too can be explained. The phrase “lake of fire” appears only 5 times in the whole bible and they are all in the book of Revelations. If you have studied God’s Word for any length of time, you already know that the book of Revelations is probably the most complex and misunderstood book in the bible. Let’s look at all 5 verses that use the phrase “lake of fire”.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death.

     Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into theLAKE OF FIRE.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death.

    Before we go any further, we must understand something that is very important if we are ever going to be able to understand these scriptures. In order to unlock these mysteries, we must first remember that the whole book of Revelations was signified or “symbolized” and we must use spiritual eyes to unlock these biblical truths.

    Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John:

    Strong’s Concordance for the Greek word sēmainō (G4591) translated signified in the above verse is defined as TO GIVE A SIGN, to signify, or indicate.

    Some would have you believe that the bible in general is to be taken literally. They say that because someone else told them that and they just believed them without doing any studying on their own. These are the same people that will tell you that Jesus spoke in parables to make the meaning clearer. Jesus spoke in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of His Words. The bible has scriptural truth that should be applied and read literally however, there are countless other truths that are figurative and have a spiritual meaning. Those who cannot understand these things are spiritually blind and incapable of comprehending such things.

    The lake of fire isn’t a literal lake of burning flames in which condemned souls are tortured for eternity. Christians of course will disagree with this because they believe that this is literal. But wait a minute; I thought hell was the place that condemned souls went to be tortured for eternity not the lake of fire? Christians will tell me that this is true that the lake of fire is just another description of hell. If that is so, then tell me how it makes any sense for hell to be cast into hell in Revelations 20:14? The lake of fire is a symbol for something spiritual and only a spiritual mind (the mind of Christ) can decipher these things. Remember the parable of plucking out eyes in reference to geenna fire that we just discussed? The lake of fire isn’t literal.

    Now let’s look at all the characteristics of the “lake of fire”.

    1) This is a list of everything that is “cast into the lake of fire” from the 5 verses quoted above from Revelations;

    • the beast and the false prophet, (grouped together because they are grouped like this in the scripture)
    • the devil,
    • death and hell (hades), and (grouped together because they are grouped like this in the scripture)
    • those whose names aren’t written in the book of life.
    • the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars.

    2) In 3 out of the 5 verses, the lake of fire is included with brimstone.

    3) 2 inanimate things are cast into the lake of fire- death and hell.

    Okay, now I’m not going to spend time identifying who some of the characters are because that isn’t the point of this study. That will be the topic for another study later. The purpose of this part of the study is to identify what the lake of fire represents in scripture.

    Let’s look at the word fire as it is used in these 5 verses in Revelations. The Greek word pyr is translated as “fire” 74 times in the King James Version. It is used literally and figuratively. This is important because if we misinterpret scripture because we don’t understand when fire is spoken of literally or figuratively, we will not understand the appropriate meaning.

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with FIRE:

    In this scripture above, John the Baptist is comparing two things: physical baptism with spiritual baptism. He (John the Baptist) is the physical and Jesus Christ is the spiritual. Notice that John the Baptist baptizes with water and Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Do we really think that the fire stated here is a literal burning fire? This scripture is referring to believers since it is believers who get baptized. Unbelievers do not get baptized. So if this is for believers, why would Jesus Christ use literal fire to baptize believers? This fire is spiritual fire not literal fire and it applies to everyone. Matthew 3:11 is actually a parable not that it shouldn’t be interpreted literally, it also has a spiritual meaning. In the days of Noah, the flood was a symbol of water baptism of the world. Only a few were saved (8 total) during that time. There will come a time when Christ will baptize the world in spiritual fire save another few (God’s Elect).

    Other examples of fire being used as a symbol or figuratively;

    Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of FIRE on his head. [Heaping literal coals of fire on anyone’s head would hurt them; this is clearly a figurative statement.]

    Jamess 3:6 And the tongue is a FIRE, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. [Surely we know that the tongue isn’t a literal fire but the evil (gossiping, cursing, lying, etc.) that comes out of it surely is fiery and can spread out of control like a forest fire.]

    Revelations 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of FIRE; 

    1 Peter 1:7 That the TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be TRIED WITH FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [A true believers faith cannot literally be tried with real fire. The faith of the saints is being compared to gold being tried through fire. The fire represents whatever is trying your faith (Trust in Christ).  All true believers (the Elect/the Few) are those that overcome all of the trials and tribulations of life. 2 Timothy 3:12 says Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. This is something that really isn’t taught in the church today. How many of you are familiar with these scriptures? 1 Peter 4:12-13 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the FIERY TRIAL WHICH IS TO TRY YOU, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are PARTAKERS OF CHRIST’S SUFFERINGS; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 

    Here is the absolute best verse of all the verses including the word fire;

    Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming FIRE. [God isn’t a literal fire but a spiritual fire.]

    So what is the purpose of this spiritual lake of fire? I will show you from the scriptures;

    1 Corinthians 3:13 EVERY MAN’S WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the FIRE SHALL TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. [Paul is clearly talking to believers but this verse says “every man’s work” so this is not talking about believers only but everyone. We can be sure that this is referring to all men because Paul tells us that the “day” shall declare it. That particular day is the Day of Judgment –God’s purging fiery judgment on all mankind. On this day, every man’s work good or bad will be exposed.

    1 Corinthians 3:14-15 If ANY MAN’S WORK ABIDE which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. If ANY MAN’S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as BY FIRE. [This is an important verse to understand because this verse is typically never discussed in church. If any man’s work shall be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved. Did you get that last part? After God does all the casting into the lake of fire (which is His fire consuming Spirit) He will purge out all of the evil works (suffer loss) but the person will be saved. Let’s go back to 1 Corinthians 3:11-12,

    For other FOUNDATION CAN NO MAN LAY THAN THAT IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if ANY MAN BUILD UPON THIS FOUNDATION gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Notice that Paul tells us that we build upon this foundation. This foundation is Christ and we build on it with all of our faith, beliefs, doctrines, and actions. Notice that Paul makes a comparison between gold, silver, and precious stones to wood, hay, and stubble. If I put the first 3  real substances (gold, silver, precious stones) in a real literal fire, the gold, silver, and precious stones will become refined because that is the practical purpose of fire. Now if I do that same for the last 3 real substances (wood, hay, and stubble) in a real fire, they will burn up because these materials are combustible. What is the spiritual message that Paul is trying to teach us? All of these substances represent the things that we build upon our foundation. The gold, silver, and precious stones represent the spiritual and godly attributes that we have obtained through our walk with Christ if we indeed are following Christ and allowing him to transform our lives. These things will be remain and a reward will be received. The wood, hay, and stubble represent our carnal nature, evil thoughts, and lustful desires. These things will be figuratively burned out and some will suffer loss during this process. What does it mean to suffer loss? Hasn’t Christ already provided us with some words of advice about this matter?

    Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and LOSE himself, or be cast away?

    The phrase “suffer loss” as it is used in 1 Corinthians 3:15 is translated from the Greek word zēmioō and it means to affect with damage. The word “lose” as it is used by Christ in Luke 9:25 comes from the same Greek word zēmioō. There’s more;

    Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, LET HIM DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross, and follow me. ForWHOSOEVER WILL SAVE HIS LIFE SHALL LOSE IT: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    The word lose in Matthew 16:25 is translated from a different Greek word and it is “apollymi”. This word is also translated as the word perish and destroy. So what does all of this mean? Remember that in 1 Corinthians 3:15, we are told that people that have their work burned will suffer loss but they will be saved. This tells us that people are not permanently destroyed or perished but there are many people that are stubborn, mean to others, have uncontrollable sins of the flesh, addictions, and all types of work that make up our carnality. When people live for the carnal man, this is the person that you become. When you deny yourself, you give up or LOSE these things but for those who do not give them up for Christ in this life, they will suffer loss because they will not want to give them up willingly. It is NOT easy denying ones self. It is difficult to die to the pulls and lusts of the flesh. This is what suffering loss means and this process will not be the same for everyone because the works of each individual person will be different. What I can promise you is that this “suffering loss” has nothing to do with being literally tortured with real fire in the evil pagan hell of Christianity.

    So we can be sure that the lake of fire isn’t a literal fire with all of these examples of scripture telling us about the spiritual purpose of fire. Physical fire can only effect physical things. If a person lusts with their eyes, there eyes have nothing to do with the lust. The eye is the physical member of the body that we use to lust. The lust comes from sin that lies in the heart of a person. There is no possible way for literal physical fire to have any effect on the sins of the heart. Only God can use spiritual fire to purge us of having sinning hearts.

    Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? FOR HE IS LIKE A REFINER’S FIRE, AND LIKE FULLERS’ SOAP: This is a divine action from God and it is likened to the refining capabilities of fire.

    This is what Christians fail to realize. Just because hell isn’t real doesn’t mean that people will not be held accountable for their actions. These scriptures clearly show us that we will be judged by the works that we build upon our foundation. I am fully aware that modern Christians need to believe in hell because it makes sense for them. It makes them think that people will not go unpunished for doing evil. They forget that everyone is evil and they become self-righteous thinking that they no longer need to be held accountable for their sins because they say religious things like, “I’m covered by the blood” which I guess makes it okay for them to still have wicked hearts while condemning others. Reminds me of a group of people that Christ had to deal with during the days he walked the earth. The problem here is that man takes responsibility for God’s work. God created life the way it is and God is ultimately responsible for His creation.

    The lake of fire represents the process of God making things right with His creation of humanity. The creation of man is not some experiment that has gone horribly wrong by God. This kind of thinking belittles and undermines the sovereignty of God when His ways are lowered down to the level of a man. Contrary to what Christians think, God is in control of everything. The lake of fire is about judgment but this is a righteous judgment and not a grand display of evil where the souls of the wicked are tormented literally in a literal lake of hell fire. The teaching of hell is the most evil doctrine ever concocted by the devil and sadly, Christians hold steadfast to this doctrine of devils.

    When we really look at God’s Word, it is hard to ignore the truth; Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn righteousness. There will come a time (not in this life) when all the inhabitants (meaning everyone that has ever lived) will learn righteous. Now isn’t the time for this to happen and don’t think for one second that things aren’t working in God’s perfect timing.

    For those of you still doubting that this lake of fire isn’t meant to be a spiritually purifying lake of fire need to explain the addition of the word “brimstone” in 3 of the 5 scriptures in Revelation. Has anyone ever taken the time to really think about the inclusion of this added element? In 2 verses, brimstone isn’t included but in the other 3 verses brimstone is included. Are there two different lakes of fire? We should know from the four gospel accounts of Jesus that the inclusion or exclusion of events doesn’t add to or take away from the event. Scripture doesn’t separate these descriptions of the lake of fire as being distinctive of two separate lakes of fire. We can be sure that there is only one lake of fire due to the fact that there is only one God and the lake of fire represents God’s judgment; so we can surmise that there is only one lake of fire. So then, what exactly is this added element called brimstone?

    The word “brimstone” is in the King James Version 14 times; 7 in the Old Testament (Hebrew) and 7 in the New Testament (Greek). Brimstone is an archaic word for sulfur. Let’s see some examples of how this word is used in scripture in addition to the two we’ve already looked at in the book of Revelations;

    Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah BRIMSTONE and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

    Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire andBRIMSTONE, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

    Luke 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and BRIMSTONEfrom heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the BRIMSTONE, which issued out of their mouths.

    There are other scriptures that include the word brimstone but the interesting thing to note is that almost all the biblical use of the word is connected with the word fire. It is also interesting that this word appears to be in close relationship to God’s judgement of the wicked. What you probably haven’t considered is why brimstone (sulfur) is even included in the first place? Why does God use brimstone in connection with fire? Well if you were paying attention, you already know that this fire is a spiritual fire and there is no logical explanation to jump back in the realm of the literal. This brimstone (sulfur) also is spiritual and we need to find out what it represents.

    The word brimstone is translated from the Greek word “theion” and it is defined in biblical use as divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease. Now does this definition of brimstone sound like it is meant to go along with the evil torture and torment of the lake of fire that burns for ever and ever and ever as believed by the whole Christian church? Let’s be logical here. The lake of fire obviously has a purpose. Some believe that the lake of fire is hell (even though hell is cast in it) and a very small few know that this lake of fire is indeed spiritual with a purifying purpose. Now I know people hate to be wrong and so many people will reject the truth because it goes against everything they’ve been taught. What people fail to realize is that the bible has been translated and taught in a way to scare people in to wanting or seeking salvation on their own will. We are not capable nor will we ever be capable of saving ourselves hence the well-known scripture that tells us that salvation is a gift from God through faith and not worldly religious works.

    How about I take this a little bit further; the Greek word “theion” is related to another Greek word “theios” which is used 3 times in scripture twice as divine and once as “Godhead”. Let’s look at the scriptures;

    Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the GODHEAD is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. [Note: the word Godhead is a poor translation of the Greek word “theion” and this is another example of the King James translators inserting words to fit their interpretation. There isn’t any scriptural justification for this word to be translated to any word other than the word divine as it is translated this way in the other two scriptures.]

    2 Peter 1:3 According as hisDIVINE power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of theDIVINE nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    Is the light turning on yet? Do you not see from the very Words of God what is being revealed to you? If you deny these truths then the Spirit of Christ is not in you. It should be perfectly clear that the lake of fire and brimstone isn’t a literal lake of boiling hot lava created for the sole purpose of torturing people for eternity. You can go on believing this doctrine of devils if you choose but you are in fact telling yourself who your real spiritual father really is.

    So let’s take another look at all the things that are cast into the lake of fire which is now revealed to have a spiritual, purifying, and divine purpose;

     Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    The beast and the false prophet- in the Christian church, it is commonly believed that this beast and false prophet represent the “Antichrist” and his beast kingdom. This theory is unscriptural and the beast and false prophet are both symbols and are not real people. If the beast and false prophet represent real people, wouldn’t they be covered in Revelation 20:15 (whosoever was not found written in the book of life) or Revelation 21:8 (the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars)?

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The devil is cast into the lake of fire, but the world of the Christian church teachers that hell is the devils home as if he will be the ruler of hell. This is nothing but a horror story with the devil as the villain. If you’ve read my paper titled, “Satan: God’s Perfect Instrument of Evil”then you will understand that Satan was created by God for a very important and divine purpose. In order to be created in the image of God, the knowledge of evil is necessary hence the purpose of Satan. This isn’t taught in the Christian church. The devil will not be literally tormented in the lake of fire day and night for ever and ever as the King James bible suggests. If you remember from Part 5: Torment: Literal or Spiritual? the word translated as tormented in Revelation 20:10 comes from the Greek word “basanizō” which is also translated as pain, toss, vex, and toil. This truth alone should tell you that the meaning of this verse has been distorted with the word tormented as many with demented minds think this is referring to literal physical torment. The devil or Satan is a spiritual creature and there is nothing that physical fire can do to harm a spiritual creature.

    Exodus 3:2 And THE ANGEL OF THE LORD APPEARED UNTO HIM IN A FLAME OF FIRE out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. The angels of God are also spiritual creatures and as you can see, physical fire doesn’t harm them. This is additional proof that the lake of fire doesn’t represent a literal lake of fire as the Christian church believes. What God decides to do with the devil in the lake of fire also will have a divine purpose. I do not believe that God destroys any life He creates and the devil will no longer be “the adversary” when God ushers in the new order of things to be.

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    If we are following along with the understanding of the spiritual, we know that the lake of fire represents God’s divine process of purification. For those that continue to use their carnal brains contending that this is literal, explain how death and hell (the grave) can be literally picked up and cast into the lake of fire?

    Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not TASTE OF DEATH, till they see the kingdom of God. Christ says that some will not taste of death. Does he literally mean that they won’t literally taste death with their tongues? What if they want a little ketchup and mustard with their side order of death? This is foolishness and the thinking of carnal minded Christians is equally foolish.

    We are told that the process of death and hell being cast in the lake of fire IS the second death. What constitutes death? In literal physical death for humanity, life ceases. The second death is symbolic in this scripture because death and hell are not real people nor are they physical beings that can physically die.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: AND HIS NAME THAT SAT ON HIM WAS DEATH, AND HELL FOLLOWED WITH HIM. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Can you not see that this is symbolic language or do you think that death and hell are literally riding around on horses?

    When a car stops working, we liken the cars battery to being dead. Does this mean that the car was alive at first? Of course not. In symbolic death, something ends or ceases. The purpose of the lake of fire is to purify but it will also purge or put an end to all things that aren’t pure. God will be destroying both death and hell (the grave) and in addition to this, the very nature of sinning humanity.

    1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH. This verse proves that the second death is not a literal physical death otherwise, death would not be destroyed. Death is likened as an enemy and death remains and enemy until all are given life. If any person remains dead, then death still has power which would contradict this verse.

    1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put onINCORRUPTION, and this mortal shall have put onIMMORTALITY, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 

    1 Corinthians 15:55 O DEATH, where is thy sting? O GRAVE[Hell – hadēs], where is thy victory?

    Death will be no more and Hell (the grave – hadēs) will be done away with seeing that all humanity will be made incorruptible (immortal).

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    These last two verses in Revelation are dealing with the purification of sinning humanity. What is the purpose of purifying in the first place? To make “pure”, right? What has to happen in order for a man to be made pure? To be tortured for all eternity? Of course not. I sure hope this is as easy for you as it is for me to understand… We will be purified of sin. The scriptures even go so far as to make a list but surely not a comprehensive list; Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving [this includes everyone who doesn’t believe God will save all mankind], and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. [All these things will be burned and purified right out of the sinner and notice that they shall have their (PART – not whole or eternity in the lake of fire). Remember 1 Corinthians 3:15 if any man’s work[behaviors, thoughts, beliefs]shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire (the lake of fire).]

    This whole process is the second death and the true spiritual meaning of the lake of fire.

    November 21, 2018 at 2:58 am#835696
    Anthony
    Participant

    Nick  take the time and read it k.

    Yes Nick I’ve said all my word to you on this subject, here are some others words on the subject.

    Web site: therealgospelofchrist.com

     

    November 21, 2018 at 2:59 am#835697
    Anthony
    Participant

    Nick try to keep a open mind.

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