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The truth about Hell

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  • October 21, 2016 at 12:37 am#817589
    Brian
    Participant

    The Bible says Israel will never be cast away and will always be God’s people, and that their nation will never cease once they return to Israel again. In fact, there are prophecies in the OT that say Jesus will come down on the Mount of Olives and walk through the Lamb’s Gate in Jerusalem and the Jews will see him and ask, “Where did you get those wounds in your hands?” And he’ll answer, “In the house of my friends.” And since he will clearly look Israeli, it says they’ll realize he’s Jesus and that they are the ones who wounded him on the cross. It then says they’ll realize he’s their Messaih at that point and all of Israel will be saved.

    So no, your doctrine of God leaving the Jews forever is not correct, and no, that verse you quoted doesn’t mean what you’re trying to make it mean. All Jesus said was saying in that verse is that the Holy Spirit will no longer be in the temple because it’s going to go out to the hearts of men. Therefore, worshipping God won’t be done on the Temple mount anymore, but instead, it will be done in our hearts. Because that millennial kingdom is most likely talking about the kingdom of heaven, which is in our hearts.

     

    Male sense?

    October 21, 2016 at 12:45 am#817590
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    These prophecies I’m talking about are well known. Someone told me not long ago, “If you don’t understand the scripture’s prophecies, it is perhaps because you did not receive the holy spirit of truth and are not enlighten to understand Jesus words.” Have you ever considered that that could be the issue? 🙂

    October 21, 2016 at 5:58 am#817591
    Brian
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    So, how did it feel when I said to you what you said to me about maybe not having received the Holy Spirit and not being enlightened to understand Jesus words? It probably didn’t feel too, good. Probably made you feel a little stupid if you took it personally. It was a pretty cruel thing to say to someone. It implies that you are enlightened (which is quite prideful) and that someone else is not (which is very judgmental). Jesus said not to judge and God said He resists the proud. The only reason I said your words back to you is because I wanted you to see how utterly disrespectful it is. That’s no way to have a civil, friendly conversation with someone. There is a saying…”One is a saint until he knows it.” The saints did not look at themselves as “enlightened” or anything like that. To do so would be prideful and they were all about fleeing from pride. They didn’t assume they knew the truth necessarily, they merely did their best to seek truth and hoped they’d find it. Well…most of them did, anyway. Some of them were prideful and arrogant, but not the majority of them.

    This is why I said earlier that it’s important to understand the emotions, because they’re what drive us to do our sinful behavior. Eastern philosophy is excellent at understanding the emotions and resolving them so we can mature properly. But Christianity got rid of all of the old Eastern philosophy ways of the Ancient Hebrews when Constantine got rid of all of the Jewish practices from the religion because he hated the Jews. So Christianity is left as this religion of people who are simply repressing uncomfortable emotions (that’s the ego) thinking it will stop their sinful behaviors. But in reality, it actually causes the sinful behaviors to stay firmly in place, because the cause of the sinful behaviors is being repressed instead of dealt with. If Eastern and Western philosophies would merge in their more base forms, then we’d have something much closer to the ways of the Ancient Hebrews.

    October 21, 2016 at 9:21 am#817592
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    I don’t have a eastern or western philosophy I just have the scriptures which i believe in ,

    you talking about the holy spirit of truth ,but do you know what it or he is ? or you still in the dark

    now Israel since Jesus death are at the same level than the gentiles they all have to accept Jesus for he is the door to the father ,

    Paul says that the true israelites are those that obey God’s command from the heart not those of the circumcision in the flesh,but of the circumcision of the heart,

    so if you don’t live by the truth ,how can you worship God in spirit and truth ?

    I have study the prophecies for years ,this year is my 55 th year that i study the scriptures ,but this is man talk ,

    you did not answer my question ,you just brush it a side has dust with your opinions,

    now it does not do me anything that you tell me I haven’t receive the holy spirit for i know the truth and cannot be shaken ,

    for i know what is the holy spirit of truth ,

    to me you are very confused in your understanding ,understand that we are responsible for for our own views for Jesus message is the same to all of us,

    so it is what we do with it that divide or unites us ,

    October 21, 2016 at 4:06 pm#817593
    Brian
    Participant

    If you’re Christian, then you are Western philosophy whether you realize it or not. Western philosophy is very different than Eastern philosophy. And one cannot understand the Ancient Hebrews without understanding ancient Eastern philosophy (not to be confused with the Eastern religions which have twisted it). And one cannot fully understand what Jesus was teaching without understanding that he was teaching Eastern philosophy not Western philosophy. You really should read some books about Eastern vs Western philosophy and thinking.

    Wow, you have no idea how rude and arrogant you are. You act like you know the truth for sure and you treat others like they have no clue what the truth is if they don’t agree with you. Congratulations, you’re just like a whole lot of other offensive Christians, and you’re part of the reason people don’t like Christians nowadays.

    Of course I know what the Holy Spirit.

    You can’t grasp the fact that the prophecy says Jesus will enter through the Lamb’s Gate, physically, and talk to the Jews who DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM RIGHT NOW. They are the ones in the prophecy who realize he is their Messiah and they accept him. It then says ALL OF ISRAEL accepts him, and it’s clearly not talking about any non-Israelis. It’s clearly talking about only the actual people who are from Israel. But you wouldn’t know that because you weren’t even familiar with that prophecy. I can’t discuss prophecy with you because despite your several years of study, you know very little about prophecy, and you just like to argue to prove you’re right. It’s a pride thing…nothing more. All debate is pride driven and you can’t even see that because you’re so incredibly unaware.

    Yes, I did answer your question, and I did so thoroughly…but since you didn’t like my answer and couldn’t disprove it, you act as if I didn’t answer it. I did not give you my opinion either. I gave you a clear prophecy that needs no opinions or interpretation to understand it.

    Also, I didn’t say you don’t have the Holy Spirit. I was being ironic to show you how rude and insensitive you are, but you were too blind to see that. You really don’t understand human interaction, just like someone with Asperger’s. You may seriously want to get that checked out. I’m not insulting you…I’m being honest.

    I’m done trying to have a coherent discussion with you because it’s clearly not possible. Goodbye.

    <!–more–>

    October 21, 2016 at 7:42 pm#817594
    terraricca
    Participant

    Brian

    I knew what was coming ,you are not the first ,the message of Christ is not a popular contest, but the truth of God to be accepted ,

    and no you did not answer my question,but you don’t have to,

    also why do you have to try to have a coherent discussion with me on men philosophy, i am only interested in bible truth ,and bible truth does not depend on men views but God’s,

    ho, and Jesus came through the lamb door ,now i wait for is return to bring to a end this age of corruption ,

    take care

    October 22, 2016 at 12:49 am#817595
    Brian
    Participant

    No, my stopping this conversation has nothing to do with “the message of Christ.” It has everything to do with you having zero respect for others due to your incredible arrogance, and the fact that you’re not trying to have a civil discussion…you’re trying to be right and that’s all you care about, but you hide it under the guise of “righteousness.” There’s nothing Christian about that, but it happens all the time with Christians. It’s one reason I rarely bother with forums.

    The Bible says not to bother with genealogies and debates about theology, because it’s a pride thing. You haven’t learned that in your 50+ years of life, and that’s sad for you. I have discussions with friends who disagree with me, but we all respect each other and we’re not trying to change each other’s views. You have no concept of that. Goodbye.

    October 22, 2016 at 1:22 am#817596
    Brian
    Participant

    Proverbs 20:3 – Avoiding a fight is a mark of honor; only fools insist on quarreling.

    Proverbs 12:15 – Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.

    October 22, 2016 at 5:50 am#817597
    terraricca
    Participant

    ha,ha,ha

    “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    i am listen to Jesus not to fools that believe in the wisdom of men and that claim to be wise but know nothing of the wisdom of God,

    no one that obeys Christ can be called a fool ,for this would mean that the truth of God is foolish,

    answer my question ? for by one verse the scriptures has killed your view,no one can fight the truth only join it ,

    October 22, 2016 at 6:06 am#817598
    terraricca
    Participant

    and in regard to your view of me be arrogant tell me haw many truth of God are they ? to me only one ,

    if this is true then why are you not following it ?

    why are you need men’s views in world philosophy ?

    why are you trying to convince me that those philosophy comes from God and that God has to be understood through them ?

    I have study all those foolish things and find them a deceiving way to no where ,and certainly not to God and his son,

    sur some have good thoughts but God’s word is more valid than all the wisdom of men put together,for it is a live giving knowledge

    my sword is the truth of God not men made opinions

    October 22, 2016 at 9:59 am#817599
    terraricca
    Participant

    one more thing Brian ,the message of Christ cannot produce anything else than a righteous person if it is followed ,if not then you haven’t follow the blueprint so to speak,

    October 22, 2016 at 1:35 pm#817600
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Brian:

    I believe that we all or at least most of us that participate in the forum are seeking the truth, and so, I for one welcome your discussion about this subject.  I disagree with you that those who end up in hell will have some kind of opportunity to come to God through Christ.   Our commission as born again Christians is to go into all of the world and let whosoever will hear that God has given His uniquely begotten Son to be the propitiation for the their sins so that if they wish to be reconciled to God they may do so by coming to Him with a repentant heart believing His testimony regarding His giving us His Son.  Jesus stated “that he is the way, the truth and the life, and that no man can come to the Father but through him.  The blood of Jesus will wash away the sins of all who have obeyed God from the beginning of creation until he comes for the church.  Jesus, in prayer, asked His Father and our Father that He sanctify us through the truth, and he stated “thy Word is truth”.

    Ephesians 1:

    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    (And so, every one who has served God who has served God faithfully from the beginning of creation will be resurrected as the body of Christ when the Lord comes for the church)  Those in the OT will know their Lord at his coming.

    As for the judgment and hell, the scriptures state:

    Romans 5:

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    (Based on these scriptures, my understanding those who did not repent from Adam until the flood are dead.  They have been judged either by the same judgement that God rendered unto Adam and Eve or by the flood.  They will not be resurrected from the dead to be judged again.  This is eternal death for them. )

    Those under the Law of Moses were judged by the Law of Moses.  They have been judged already.  They will not be resurrected is they are not saved.  There were a remnant who were faithful in serving God under the Law.  As I have stated, they will be resurrected at the coming of the Lord as part of the body of Christ.

    Here is the scripture by which I stated the above:

    Hebrews 10:

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    In the NT judgement will be delayed until the end of time whereas God has already judged those in the OT.

    Jesus stated:

    John 12:
    47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    (Those who have died in their sins when Jesus comes for the church will be raised from the dead after the 1000 year period to be judged according to their works.  This will be the second death, and it is eternal death, not eternal hell.  It is hell and I would not want to be there, but no, they will not burn forever and ever).

    Revelation 20King James Version (KJV)

    20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The following scripture from the book of Jude states the following:

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Those who are alive and still in their sins at the coming of the Lord for the church will have received the mark of the beast, and will be judged by the seven last plagues.

    2 Thes 2:

    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Now as for the devil, the false prophet and the beast.  This is the scripture:

    Revelation 19

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Revelation 20

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

     

    October 22, 2016 at 2:27 pm#817604
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Brian, I cannot neither confirm or deny what you have said regarding the Hebrew paradigm due to lack of time, but it is certainly something I will look into when I have finished reading your post. But there are scriptures written in Greek that say that only the righteous will inherit eternal life while the wicked will eternally perish. These scriptures seem clear, but of course I remain teachable if there is anything here that I am missing.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    What you seem to be saying is that even those who do not believe will eventually inherit eternal life too. While this is possible given that they could and likely would believe after they died, the other side of the equation is who will perish because scripture is clear that some people will actually perish and not have eternal life.

    If I speculate, then I could imagine that angels had debates about mankind who had sinned. Some could have argued that they would perish because of sin. But then God the merciful revealed a plan to save them. Could God do that again to those who rejected him in this life? Sure he could. He is sovereign and can do what he wants. But God has also revealed to us his truth, and he would not go against his own truth. If he says that some will perish and not receive eternal life, then I don’t think he will go back on his word.

    2 Peter 2:12
    But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

    Luke 13:3
    I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

    John 10:28
    I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10
    and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    Philippians 3:19
    Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
    8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 
    9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    October 22, 2016 at 3:27 pm#817608
    Brian
    Participant

    Marty,

    Thanks for the reply.

    I’m not interested in debate, but I’m willing to discuss and share ideas. I’ll point out just a few things real quick regarding your post and the topic at hand.

    You quoted Ephesians 1:10 – That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    That verse says God will gather “all things” in Christ. Christ said he saved everyone, not just those who would accept him. People, even scholars, like to say that “all doesn’t really mean all in scripture. It just means some.” Well, there are some problems with that. The way it’s worded in the Greek changes, which means it’s not just a saying that means some instead of all. The only reason people say all doesn’t mean all is beause it doesn’t fit their doctrinal beliefs. And that makes a whole lot of sense, of course. That’s how translators translate, even. They can’t help but have doctrinal biases and translate accordingly because they assume they believe like Paul or the Ancient Hebrews believed. That’s a very poor assumption, unfortunately.

    So, since we’re looking at why you believe what you believe, let’s look at where the idea came from in the first place. It alway helps to go back to the origins of how we get these ideas that turn into doctrines.

    I mentioned in my original post that the Ancient Hebrews never believed in an eternal hell and the Jews today still don’t. That’s not an idea that just changed throughout the years with the entire population of Jews spread out across the entire world. At best, the Saducees in Jesus’ time believed that there was no afterlife at all, but their numbers were dwarfed by the Pharisees, which is why their beliefs never took hold.

    I also mentioned that the Pagan worshipers of Ba’al Molech are the originators of the eternal hell belief. But let’s forget for a moment that they were the origin and let’s look at scripture to see where that idea would come from.

    The only verses that speak of an eternal hell use wording that doesn’t mean eternal hell. In fact, it means a period of time–and age–which is quite the opposite of timeless eternity. I mentioned this in my original post, as well. What you’re left with is absolutely no statements in the Bible that say hell is eternal, nor that people stay there eternally. And once you lose that foundation for hell being eternal, you have to ask yourself where the idea even comes from. The answer is pretty simple–it’s what we were taught, plain and simple. And psychology has proved that it’s incredibly hard to change someone’s beliefs because they’re so deeply embedded in our subconscious and they’re usually wrapped around a fear of being cast into hell. So, of course, it would be a doctrine that would be very difficult to separate people from.

    Now, let’s take into account the fact that God says His will is that none should perish and “all” come to repentance. So we have a statement of what God’s will is. The next question is, does He have the power to carry out His will? Jesus thinks so, because he says “all” things are possible with God. So He can do if He wants to, and He already said He wants to. On top of that, one verse says He does “all” His pleasure, or depending on the translation, all that pleases Him. That’s not prooftexting. Those are statements about God’s character, so they’re true no matter what context they’re in. Thus, He has to be able to create a creation where everyone can be saved…because if He doesn’t, then He’s a horrific God and Atheists are absolutely right to hate Him. What sick, twisted God has the power to do all things and yet ends up creating us against our will and sending us here against our will knowing exactly which ones of us will spend eternity in hell? Because he says all our days are written. It’s all been decided before we come here.

    Many like to argue that our free will is stronger than God and His will because we can chose condemnation and He can’t do anything about it. That’s, of course, not what the Bible says, though. Jesus says God can do all things, and God says He does all His pleasure.

    Keep in mind that the verse you quoted where Jesus says he is the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the Father except through him doesn’t say what you’re claiming it says. You believe that means that a person must be alive when they come to him, but that’s not what the verse says. Nothing in the Bible says they must be alive to go through Jesus. Why can’t they be in the afterlife when they accept him? Why does the Bible say Jesus has the keys to hell if he’s not going to let anyone out? Doesn’t make sense, really. Also, take into account that in Jesus’ parable about the man who was forgiven his debt. When the man goes and tries to collect money from those who owe him money, he’s thrown into the dungeon and the king says he will not get out until the last penny is paid. Notice it doesn’t say he’ll never get out. He’ll get out when the last penny is paid. Thus, there is an end to judgment according to Jesus. Also, notice Jesus’ parable of the sheep. He had 100 sheep, and he saves all 100 of them. Not just 50. Not just 80. All of them. He goes to get the one who went astray, which would represent those in opposition to God. Why? Because he breaks the sheep’s leg and carries him. That’s what hell is–Jesus is breaking the people’s legs, basically, so they have nothing left to stand on (I’m speaking metaphorically, of course). And when that happens, they have no way of escape except to ask him for help. They’re more than willing at that point because they’ve been unable to escape their fears. It crushes them.

    Let me ask you a question…would you let one of your children suffer in hell forever? (I’m assuming you have children…if you don’t, then you may not be able to answer that question properly) I can tell you from experience, you would not unless you are a horrible human being. Almost no parent would wish hell on their kid, ever. Especially for eternity. That’s just messed up. You have to be one extremely cruel and vile individual to with that on anyone. Now, consider that God is far more loving that you. Would He, a far more loving being, do something like that to His children that you, a less loving being, wouldn’t even do to your own children? The doctrine of an eternal hell is incredibly contradictory to God’s unconditionally-loving nature. The two simply cannot exist together. It’s impossible.

    So step back and really consider just how horrific God is if you’re correct and He lets people suffer in hell forever when He has the power to do all things and yet doesn’t. How messed up is that?

    And once again, keep in mind that the verse in Revelation you quoted that says Satan will be tormented in the Lake of Fire day and night forever and ever does not actually say that. The word “forever” there actually is “aeon,” which means “age”–a period of time. Also, notice that it says “day and night” forever and ever. There are no days or nights in our idea of eternity…but there are days and nights on earth. And we’re told Satan was cast to the earth. Near-death experiences tend to show hell as here on earth, actually. Earth-bound spirits seem to be stuck here, but that other reality they’re in is a little different than this one…but either way, they’re here on earth. Every Atheist who’s died and had a near-death experience has come back from it believing in God. Every last one of them. So tell me, what’s so special about them that they experience hell and come back and get saved as opposed to Atheists who die for good can’t be saved from it? Answer: there’s nothing special about them at all. They’re no different. If God wants to save everyone like He says He wants to, and He has to do it before they die, then why doesn’t He just make sure all Atheists have a near-death experience so they’ll all be saved?

    So regardless of the verses you posted, nothing has proved that hell is eternal because it’s all based off of how we translate the scriptures, and I explained how they’re translated incorrectly to fit doctrines. Again, I’m not debating you, just trying to show where your argument doesn’t hold water, is all. You have to really consider what you believe God’s nature is…because your belief in an eternal hell contradicts it and causes lots of Atheists to hate God, and for good reason. Now that I truly understand God’s nature, I could never serve a God who sends people to hell forever.

    –Brian

    October 22, 2016 at 4:18 pm#817609
    Brian
    Participant

    t8,

    Thanks for the post.

    You’re gonna make me break out the more literal Greek on you. lol

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    In that verse, the more literal translation is, “…that whoever be believing in him shall not be perishing but shall be having eternal life.” So when a scholar goes to translate it, he tries to make it more palettable for English readers…and translates it the way that fits his doctrinal beliefs. But what I just gave you is very accurate. And as you can see, it says that whoever believes in him will not be perishing, present tense, but will be having eternal life, present tense. That’s what the Kingdom of Heaven is. It’s a state of being where a person is experiencing eternal life. I won’t go into the extremely deep mechanics of what makes it eternal life and why one experiences it, because that’s unnecessary for the conversation (but it’s really cool, though, I must admit). When Paul says murderers and theives and liars, etc, will not “enter” the Kingdom of Heaven, he’s talking about them entering a state of being. No, not transcendence…just a way of being connected to your child-of-God self, experiencing peace and joy at all times. It’s being connected with your child-of-God self’s eternal life.

    But also, understand that the verse above doesn’t say “perish eternally.” It just says “perish.” So it doesn’t say they’ll go to hell forever. However, if it did say “forever,” it would still be the word “aeonian” in the Greek, which means “age,” not “eternal.” And no, scripture does not clearly say that some will perish and never receive eternal life. It simply says some will perish. It is after death that people will eventually accept Jesus and have eternal life. If you believe there are verses that clearly say a person will perish and never receive eternal life, feel free to list them so I can take a look at them in the Greek.

    The other verses you posted say that the people “will be perishing” not “will perish” in the original Greek. It’s a present-tense thing. Now, sometimes it does say they will perish, when it talks about what happens to them at death. But again, you must understand that Jesus never says we have to accept him while we’re alive. Not once is that stated in the Bible. If it were required, he would’ve stated it like that. Also, hell isn’t talked about a whole lot in the New Testament. Paul only talked about it once, and only said that it had no power now. If it were so important, I’d think Paul would’ve been talking about it quite a bit. And yet he didn’t.

    You quoted 2 Thess 1:8. Notice that it says God will punish them. In my post, I stated that in the Greek, the word “punish” actually means “correctional punishment.” The only time the Greek term for “vengeful punishment” is used is when Paul tells what he did to the Christians when he was Saul. So if Paul wanted to convey a type of punishment God has waiting for people that is not correctional but actually vengeful, he would’ve used that specific word in the Koine Greek. But he doesn’t. He specifically uses the word for correctional punishment. The only way hell is eternal is if it’s described with the word for vengeful punishment. Eternal punishment, when stated in the OT, is the same. It means pruning, which is correctional and helpful, not vengeful. So every description of hell in the Bible is correctional. That should tell us something important about its nature.

    Also, the Church Fathers said it was correctional, as well, to get people to heaven. They changed their views on it eventually, except for Origen. But the fact that they used the same Koine Greek term to describe hell as the Bible used and then said hell was temporary to purify people and get them to heaven proves that we have translated “eternal hell” incorrectly. The Church Fathers were mostly native Koine Greek speakers, so they knew their language well…much better than any translator.

    Oh, and 2 Thess 1:9 says that God will punish them with everlasting destruction…

    Here’s what “destruction” means in that verse:

    1. ruin, destroy, death

    a. for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed

    Therefore, that verse is either talking about “age-bound death” (aka temporary) or “age-bound destruction of the lusts of the flesh.”

    So let’s put together “correctional punishment” and “age-bound destruction of the lusts of the flesh.” The verse says, “God will correct them with temporary destruction of the lusts of their flesh.” In other words, He will correct their sins.

    Just pull out the strongs concordance and start researching. You’ll want a Greek lexicon, too, so you can see the full meaning in the Greek and all the different meanings. You can find that stuff online. Some words are a little trickier than others to get down to the real meaning of them. You can’t just take what the Strong’s concordance says, because it doesn’t just give the original Greek meaning of the words. It gives all of the different ways the word has been translated by different translations. That makes it hard to tell which is the real meaning in the Greek…so the lexicon helps narrow that down.

    Thanks again for the post. I appreciate it. You might want to read my entire first post before responding again because it’ll probably answer most of your questions and keep me from having to restate things I’ve already stated in that post. I’m not saying that in a condescending way, of course…just as a friendly suggestion to save you and me some time posting on here. 🙂

    October 23, 2016 at 2:10 pm#817613
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Brian:

    First of all, no one has to go to hell,  God has made a way for anyone who desires to be reconciled to Him may do so through His provision in the Lord Jesus, His uniquely begotten Son and His Christ.  And so, if someone ends up there it is because they rejected the love of God.  God will not force anyone to serve Him.  But everyone will give an account for the life that they have lived.

    Those in the OT who died in the faith did not have the full revelation of God’s plan to send His Son to be the propitiation for the sins of humanity, and so, they did not know about Jesus, but they are saved and they are part of the body of Christ.

    I appreciate you coming and sharing with us what you believe to be the truth, but I believe that the scriptures are the Word of God and that the Word of God is the truth.

    Jesus stated:

    John 3:16ff

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God

    (And so, I do not know how you state that everyone will be saved through Christ)

    1 John 5:

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    The scriptures state that in order for a man to be in the Kingdom of God, a man must be born again, and that can only happen if one comes to God with a repentant heart, all of humanity born of the sperm of man have sinned, believing in His testimony regarding His giving of His Son.

    Romans 8 states:

    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    If anyone chooses not to serve God, he will die in his sins, and will be judged by his works, that is the life that he lived, and the punishment will be according to a person’s works. They will not burn forever and ever, but they will be destroyed and will be no more.

    The following scripture is given to us as an example of what hell is like by the punishment suffered by Sodom and Gomorrha.

    Jude 1:

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Brian, God loves you and He has demonstrated His love for you in the person of Jesus Christ, and no one has to be destroyed unless that is what he chooses.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

     

     

    October 23, 2016 at 4:09 pm#817615
    Brian
    Participant

    Marty,

    I don’t mean this in a bad way, but you’re being a hypocrit and you don’t realize it. I’m not calling you a hypocrit, I’m just saying that what you said is hypocritical. I’ll explain.

    You said that you don’t trust what I’m saying and you believe hell is eternal because you believe what the Bible says. And yet I showed you what the Bible says when translated correctly. It clearly says that hell is corrective instead of vengeful and age-bound rather than eternal. That’s what the Bible says when you look at both the original Hebrew and original Koine Greek. The Church Father’s confirm it, as well, in their writings, and most of them were native Greek speakers who understood their language much better than our scholars today do. Therefore, if you actually trust what the Bible says, you’d have to believe hell is temporary and corrective. Near-death experiences show this to be true, as well, AND Jews also confirm this. So we have the Bible, Jews, and real, confirmed experiences to show us the truth here. It’s hypocritical to say you believe hell is eternal because you believe what the Bible says…because that’s not what the Bible says. That’s merely what our inaccurate translations say. Many scholars also confirm that the Greek and Hebrew state that hell is temporary and corrective.

    My point is not to insult you or disrespect you, of course. I just like to point out inaccuracies, and your statement was inaccurate and hypocritical. You don’t believe the Bible…you believe doctrines that have been ingrained in you from a very young age. That’s anot accurate statement that I’ve just proved. Psychologists say it’s extremely difficult for someone to change their beliefs they grew up with, except for little things here and there.

    I’m not saying you need to believe hell is temporary. I’m just saying that if you’re claiming the Bible is your source of truth, then you’re not listening to it, because it clearly teaches that hell is temporary and corrective. Either you believe what it says or you don’t. It’s that simple.

    But you have to decide what you believe on your own. I can’t tell you what the truth is. All I can do is tell you what the Bible says in the original language. No one says you have to believe it. You can believe doctrines instead of the Bible if you like. Most people do. There’s nothing wrong with that. Personally, though, I go with the Bible over doctrines…but that’s just me.

    October 23, 2016 at 5:41 pm#817616
    terraricca
    Participant

    looks more like the catholic purgatory to me

    October 24, 2016 at 8:50 am#817621
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Brian:

    When I pray to my Father and God every moring, I sas Him that if I a teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His Will that He correct me. I don’t want to teach anything that is not His Word.

    Give me the scriptures on which you are basing understanding, and what the correct translation of those scriptures should be, and if God shows me that you are correct in what you are teaching, I will be corrected, with thanksgiving.

    But again, no one has to go to hell unless that is what they choose to do.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    October 24, 2016 at 9:38 am#817622
    Brian
    Participant

    Marty,

    Sounds good. Did you get a chance to read through my original post? It explains that anywhere you see the word “eternal” in the Old Testament, it means “future,” and when you see “eternal” in the New Testament, that means “age.” “Everlasting” is the same…it means “future” or “distant future” in the Old Testament and “age” or “age of ages” in the New Testament. It’s basically saying “a time,” “a time in the future”, or “a long time.” So, pick any verse you like that talks about hell. It’s always described as “eternal judgment” or “eternal punishment” or “eternal destruction.” Just do a search for verses that have those terms in it and you’ll find plenty of verses to look at. Every one of them uses the same Greek words, so pick any or all of them if you like. Biblegateway.com is an easy one to use.

    Once you do that, make sure you look up each of those verses in a Strong’s Concordance to confirm the Greek or Hebrew word they’re sourcing off of. In the Hebrew, it will be “Owlam” (may be spelled differently depending on which resource you use, because it’s transliterated). In Greek it’ll be Aion or Aioniosa or Aionian (spelling varies). Then look up those words in a lexican for each language so you can get the true meaning in the original language.

    One last thing to keep in mind is that when the word “age” is paired with something we know is eternal, that’s the only time “age” means “eternal” or “ageless.” So if it says “aionios life” or “aionios God,” then it means eternal/ageless. But when it’s paired with something that isn’t ageless/eternal, then it just means “age” or “age-bound”…a period of time. And the fact that it’s paired with the Greek word for corrective punishment means it’s temporary rather than eternal. One cannot be corrected for eternity because that’s not corrective. It’s vengeful with no corrective end in sight. And the fact that “judgment” in the Hebrew means to locate a problem and remove it from a person so the person can grow and mature tells us the nature of hell’s judgment. Judgment means pruning, basically, and so does the word punishment in the Hebrew. And when Jesus or others in the New Testament are using those words, they’re sourcing them from the Old Testament, so they have the same meaning. Which makes sense when you realize the punishment mentioned in the New Testament is defined as corrective punishment.

    Have at it, man. Don’t tak emy word for it. Research it and see what conclusion you come to. Maybe you’ll come to a better conclusion than me.

    If you wanna find truth, you gotta dig deep. I’m not saying I’ve found truth, but I do dig deep

    –Brian

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