Many words are needed to change truth into a lie

I greatly appreciate your answer, it is definitely revealing as to how you view God. Interesting how you have made comparison of God carrying out His plan to how men carry out their plans, where specifics could be established later.

Men are made in the image of God. Men do things similar to God, but obviously not at his scale or expertise.

For example men love their partners and children. The Bridegroom loves his bride and God loves his children.

Obviously, God’s love cannot really be compared, but you get my point.

T8……if Jesus was before the foundations of the earth as scripture says, then the answer has to be,  yes.  But you have cleverly  found a way out.  So the saying is true “it’s hard to catch a rabbit in a byire path”.  You simple refuse to see that JESUS CAME INTO HIS (only real) “EXISTENCE” THROUGH THE SEED OF KING DAVID. as CLEARLY WRITTEN. Bad form brother. You still are half way out, but fail to come all they out. IMO

You can call me clever, but I am simply saying what I observe.

God has an overall plan. He then works through men who have the ability to be part of it or not.

For example, Saul was King then David. If I remember rightly, Saul rejected God or in the least hardened his heart.

I think your beliefs are shaped by the idea that men have no free will, thus God is pulling all the strings and therefore had it all planned from the beginning including sin and the fall of Satan.

This view is terrible, but if it were true and you believed it, then if God forced you to reject him on the last day of your life, you would have no case to bring to God because you believed this could happen, were happy with it, and thus you have to accept the outcome.

Quite ironic too. You feel better than others because you think you are right with this, but then, your belief means you are forced to accept that those who believe in free will are forced by God to do so and you got lucky in that you were chosen to not believe it. But like I said, when the table turns against you, you have to accept it because this is the reality you believe in. I think it is sad what you believe this.

Of course scripture is clear. We can choose God or not. We choose to love or hate. We choose to believe or not. And we are judged by our choices because they are OUR choices.

Hi t8,

I believe man is easily influenced, gullible, easily deceived by himself and others.

Hitler had the power to influence, the world is full of adversaries that influence mankind.

God likewise has power to influence, it is referred to as His calling. He is light that can shine on darkness, exposing the FOOLISHNESS of men who thought they were wise. The fruits of His Spirit that He gives, also known as His mercy upon us, is the product of His influence and He gives it by measure according to His will. 

God has a purpose and a timing for everything, there is an order to His calling to faith, and an order to receive of His promise of being made perfect. God is wise, He is all knowing, ONLY God is GOOD, and as such He is the source to all true wisdom and goodness. When He chooses to place influence upon a man no matter what the measure be, that influence is more powerful than all else.  

God is teaching us that we can do nothing of ourselves. If He did not we would not know the source to our own goodness, we would think ourselves to be gods, and likewise we would not know the true God.

Read Romans 9, Paul speaks to this topic, how God has had to make His power and mercy known.

Jesus has the full measure of God’s Spirit, he has all his ways directed by God, he is a light because God has placed His full influence upon him. By such Jesus was able to overcome all other influences, all temptation. God promised that Jesus would not fail, He WAS ABLE to make that promise because God’s power of His influence is a sure thing. 

I don’t know t8, your view makes it sound like God should not be making promises, and that worldly influences can be more powerful than God.

 It sounds like you do not believe in God’s calling, and His order, as those are His promises. 

lol.

So why bother debating anything including whether we are free to choose or not. Ridiculous because you view suggests that I who do not believe in free will is made this way because I have no free will. Hahahahahahaha. And you act like there is free will by trying to convince me to see your view and then choose it over the one I hold now. That is the rub right there. Hilarious.

Hi t8,

You don’t get it.

People are given freedom to make choices. We don’t have people making choices for us, unless you are a child and your parents are making a number of decisions for you, or you are elderly and now your children are making decisions for you as you aren’t capable of making them on your own, or you are in prison and have lost certain rights, otherwise we get to make up our own minds and decide on things.

As we are FREE to make choices, we are thus free to make up our own minds. This freedom to make choices is NOT what your WILL IS, your will is of the second part here, your will is of your own mind of which you make a decision from.  

Now, if you have been able to CONTROL ALL THINGS throughout your entire life, ALL EXTERNAL INFLUENCES, as well as YOUR OWN GENETIC MAKEUP that AFFECTS YOUR PERSONAL CHARACTER, ONLY THEN would you have a WILL that could be considered as FREE. 

When you go to make up your OWN MIND, choose that which you will, your thoughts in making a decision that MAKE UP YOUR WILL ARE DEPENDENT upon FACTORS, that dependence does not equal freedom.

Your will is the decision made which was dependent on your knowledge, your memory, your character that involves your genetic makeup of which you had no control over. What you have heard, seen, smelt, tasted, felt, learned, perceived, experienced, stored in your memory,  plays a DIRECT role in what your will is. You haven’t had control over all those things throughout your entire life. You would have to be in control of every single thing around you, which is impossible, but it is only then by that circumstance that one could say that their will is actually one that is free. 

Your will is free to make a choice, as in no other person is making the choice for you. If that is what you are calling free will, then I would agree with that.

But your will itself is that of a decision, and how you made that decision is DEPENDENT on factors, certain factors that since you were born you had NO CHOICE OVER, thus you cannot say that your decision and thus your will itself, is a product of freedom. 

We are also free to let our yes be yes and no be no or to baffle people with pages of BS in order to hide our shortcomings.

Hi t8,

Yes or No?

A person’s FEAR can impede their will, where that fear within them causes them to choose differently than if they did not have that fear.

Yes or No?

A person’s individual measure of inner strength has a direct impact on their own will.

Yes or No?

No two wills are the same, as no two people have grown up having all the same experiences with the same perception to those experiences.