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Jerusalem, a very heavy stone

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Jerusalem a Heavy Stone

And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.
Zechariah 12:3

“It’s easily the most contentious piece of real estate in the world, and there’s no hope — none — of ever talking about it without pissing somebody, if not everybody, off.”
Anthony Bourdain (CNN) on Jerusalem

Who can deny that Jerusalem today is the most contentious piece of real estate on the planet? Even this cooking maestro says so.

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  • December 27, 2017 at 9:29 pm#820464
    Miia
    Participant

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/eschatology/4954879-jerusalem-a-burdensome-stone

    December 27, 2017 at 9:39 pm#820466
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Miia,

    Also Eph 2.19f

    and Rev 21.10f

    December 27, 2017 at 9:40 pm#820467
    Miia
    Participant

    From the same author (link is above):

    Jerusalem – A Burdensome Stone!

    Zechariah 12:3

    • “And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all thatburden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.”

    It’s the allegorical story of two Jerusalems. One earthy, of this world and the flesh carnal, and remains at war with all around her–and one Spiritual, not of this world but of heaven, which s not carnal and has been comforted and is at peace. Yes, this passage points to judgment upon the earthly Jerusalem for sin, but also symbolism and imagery regarding their efforts at work to build and carry this city themselves, and their rejection of the unburdensome Stone as the Spiritual foundation of that building.

    Psalms 127:1

    • “…Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.”

    A Spiritual Nation, a Spiritual City, a Spiritual Temple, all with Spiritual Jews. This is what the nation of Israel and their facsimiles the Dispensationalists don’t understand about prophesy. Briefly, this all speaks of the earthly stone that men are laden with vs the Spiritual stone that is no burden to them. The burdensome stone represents something oppressively heavy. Jerusalem is this burdensome stone because its people (as they still do today) attempt to build and uphold the nation of Israel, the Holy City Jerusalem, and the Holy Temple and bear it by their own efforts.

    Mar 12:10

    • And have ye not read this scripture; Thestone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

    The Jews are the prophesied builders who by their own means and their own hands want to build earthly nations, kingdoms, cities, and Temples, foolishly thinking this is what prophecy requires and what God desires. And this is the great weight of Jerusalem that was and still is truly oppressing both them and every Zionist that is connected with this philosophy. By contrast, Christ is the Jerusalem that is a “Burden-less Stone” and is not heavy or oppressive to its people. Indeed He came as the foundation Stone of the builders that He might relieve their burden, but they (like the Dispensationalists who sprang from their root) want nothing to do with a Spiritual Israel, and are obsessed with a temporal land, Jerusalem, and Temple. In other words, Christ came as the Stone that would give them rest from these heavy burdens that no human could carry on their own, and they refused that type of Stone, that type of Messiah, that type of Kingdom. Take for example what Christ said in Matthew chapter 11:

    Matthew 11:28-30

    • “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    • Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    • For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

    Jesus Christ is the Stone whose burden is light as compared to the burden of earthly Jerusalem because He does all the heavy lifting Himself. Christ is the burden-less stone that the builders (Jews) rejected. And that rejection means thatthey had to bear the heavy burden of sin themselves. Something mankind cannot do, and anyone who tries will come under God’s judgment. That’s why Christ came as the Spiritual nation, the Spiritual Israel, God’s “true” only begotten Son called out of Egypt, the Spiritual Jerusalem from above, the Spiritual city of Peace, the Spiritual Holy Temple wherein we can enter into the true holiest of Holies in a Spiritual way through His flesh

    Heb 10:19-21

    • Having therefore, brethren, boldness toenter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    • By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
    • And having an high priest over the house of God;

    For some reason, this Spiritual understanding of God’s truth offends many. However, it is in this Spiritual Jerusalem only that God’s chosen people may cast off that heavy and burdensome stone. Selah! For they think of Prophecy in earthly / worldly terms as concerning the people residing in a plot of dirt in the middle east. Consider the prophesy of Christ’s coming and the language of this Spiritual Jerusalem that will learn war no more:

    Isaiah 40:1-3

    • “Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
    • Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished,that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD’S hand double for all her sins.
    • The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

    This Jerusalem represents the ELECT PEOPLE of God, NOT physical city of Jerusalem, who will study war no more because they are the Jerusalem that is Spiritual and comforted of God. Again, It is NOTearthly Jerusalem, or the physical city in Israel that finds Peace and safety, it is the people of this burdenless Stone. These are two distinct and separate Jerusalems, as diverse as Hagar and Sarah and the Covenants with Israel that they represented.

    One Jerusalem Christ wept over and prophesied its desolation:

    Matthew 23:37-38

    • “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    • Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

    The physical stones and buildings of Jerusalem did not kill the prophets. It was the PEOPLE, the CONGREGATION of God, the body of Christ. This Jerusalem is the burdensome stone that has been cast down, and remanins at war with God, who has brought its people to desolation for their rejection.

    However, the other Jerusalem God has forgiven and comforted and made peace with. Selah! She is the True Israel of God, a Holy Nation, a holy City, a Holy Temple, not made by the work of men’s hands, but made without hands. This Jerusalem has a burdenless foundation stone whereupon we build, and it is this Stone that brought His people’s rest and peace with God. The burdensome stone Jerusalem is surrounded with armies because she never has any peace and once the True Stone was rejected, God sent judgment upon it.

    How ironic that a Holy City of God whose name means “Peace” would be found in captivity and at war wherein she was left desolated and in bondage/captivity with her children even to this day, while the Jerusalem which is from heaven would be set free and brought everlasting peace and safety. The allegory of the two groups is striking, but clearly understandable through Spiritual eyes opened by the power of the Revelator.

    Galatians 4:23-26

    • “But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of thefreewoman was by promise.
    • Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
    • For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    • But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”

    Here God illustrates the two Jerusalems. One of the flesh, a burdensome stone, represented by Hagar, at war with God and so remains TODAY in bondage with her children, along with pre-millennialists and Zionists. The other from above set free from spiritual bondage/captivity by the Lord Jesus Christ and brought peace. This is the Jerusalem whereupon the Israel of the flesh stumbled upon in God’s judgment.

    The excitement from among the premillennialists in regarding the recognition of physical Jerusalem as a capital of National Israel last week by our president Trump is nothing. The city is still a burdensome stone for the blind Jews, for all people, even premillennialists who attempt to build and uphold the physical nation of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, and their attempt to build a “third” temple and bear it by their own efforts. They will be disappointed.

    December 27, 2017 at 9:43 pm#820468
    Miia
    Participant

    Thanks Nick, I’ll take a look.

     

    December 27, 2017 at 9:44 pm#820469
    Miia
    Participant

    Sorry about all the copy pasting, I was studying the subject 🙂

    January 3, 2018 at 5:48 pm#820616
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The capital of Israel is Jerusalem but Jerusalem is now heavenly according to scripture (I shouldn’t have to list all the scriptures of the New Testament if you know the bible).

    Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

    Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, on the east side of Jerusalem, and he is coming again from whence he left. The way some people treat Jerusalem, Israel, or the Jews, you would think Jesus could return to Mecca or London or anywhere else because the physical locales are not important anymore.

    January 5, 2018 at 11:54 pm#820629
    Miia
    Participant

    No. The physical locations are not important anymore. Jerusalem, London, He will return on the clouds AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM in flaming glory. That will be the end of everthing physical. That is how you will know  (those who do have ears to hear).

    If they say he is here or there, do NOT BELIEVE THEM!

    January 6, 2018 at 10:00 pm#820630
    Miia
    Participant

    23“Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. 24For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones. 25See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.

    26“So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it! 27For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Mane comes. 28Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.f

    29“Immediately after the anguish of those days,

    the sun will be darkened,

    the moon will give no light,

    the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.g

    30And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.h 31And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the worldi—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven. (Matthew chapter 24)

    January 6, 2018 at 10:03 pm#820631
    Miia
    Participant

    So as you (may) see above… he will not be physically anywhere here. He sends his angels to gather his chosen ones from the Earth, while He remains in the Clouds of Heaven with Power and great Glory…

    January 10, 2018 at 12:03 pm#820690
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Here are three witnesses that say otherwise.

    For David said, “The LORD God of Israel has given rest to His people, and He dwells in Jerusalem forever.

    “I the LORD do not change.”

    Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

    The physical location of Israel and Jerusalem are important in Bible prophecy because they are mentioned right to the end. God also promised to gather the Jewish people from all corners of the world which has been happening for a while and still is. By this we know we live in an important season. And with eyes to see we can confirm that God keeps his promises and we can see God moving in this day.

    January 10, 2018 at 1:04 pm#820708
    Miia
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    So.. the Old Testament according to you says OTHER than what Jesus Christ said?

    The verses you quoted:

    v 1) Yes, God has given rest to his people (God’s children today who follow Jesus Christ – see NT verses).

    v2) That is possibly fulfilled prophecy… The Lord Jesus Christ STOOD on the Mount of Olives (many times while on Earth). There was a great battle in Jerusalem. The city was taken the houses plundered and the woman raped (check history). The disciples were warned to flee to the mountains by Jesus Christ, which they did (Matthew 24:16).

    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers
    (16) Then let them which be in Judea.–The words were acted on when the time came. Eusebius (Hist. Eccl. iii. 5) records that the Christians of Juda, acting “on a certain oracle,” fled, in A.D. 68, to Pella, a town on the northern boundary of Pera. So Josephus (Wars, iv. 9, 1; v. 10, 1) more generally relates that many of the more conspicuous citizens fled from the city, as men abandon a sinking ship. The “mountains” may be named generally as a place of refuge, or may point, as interpreted by the event, to the Gilead range of hills on the east of Jordan.

    Pulpit Commentary
    Verse 16. – Then; i.e. when they shall see “the abomination of desolation,” etc. Them which be in Judaea. Not only in Jerusalem, but in its vicinity, as most exposed to danger from the invading army. Flee into (ἐπὶ, over) the mountains. The Christians seem to have taken this advice when the city was attacked by Costius Gallus, about A.D. , some three or more years before the siege under Vespasian. Gallus had appeared before the walls, and apparently had every hope of taking the city, when, for some reason not certainly known (either owing to a supposed defeat, or ignorance of his own success, or the advice of his generals), he suddenly withdrew his forces (Josephus, ‘Bell. Jud.,’ 2:19, 6, 7). The Christians, bearing Christ’s warning in mind, and having, as we may conjecture, seen the predicted sign, took the opportunity of flight from the doomed city, and made their escape to Pella, a town of Decapotis, southeast of Bethshean, and the ruins of which are known now by the name of Fahil. Euschius probably refers to this migration (‘Hist. Eccl.,’ 3:5), narrating that, owing to a certain revelation given to holy men among them, the whole body of the Church, before the war, removed across the Jordan to Pella, and dwelt there in safety during those troublous times. We probably, however, do not know the exact time of the flight, as we are ignorant of what was the warning of imminent danger which rendered this hurried proceeding necessary.

    Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
    Then let them which be in Judea,…. When this signal is given, let it be taken notice of and observed; let them that are in the city of Jerusalem, depart out of it; or who are in any other parts of Judea, in any of the towns, or cities thereof; let them not betake themselves to Jerusalem, imagining they may be safe there, in so strong and fortified a place, but let them flee elsewhere; see Luke 21:21 and accordingly it is observed, that many did flee about this time; and it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus (a) takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden, without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made; and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over Jordan, as Eusebius says (b), to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few mouths after, there was not a Christian in the city, but they had fled as they are here bidden to flee into the mountains; or any places of shelter and refuge: these are mentioned particularly, because they are usually such; and design either the mountains in Judea, or in the adjacent countries. The Syriac and Persic versions read in the singular number, “into the mountain”; and it is reported that many of them did fly, particularly to Mount Libanus (c).

    (a) De Bello Jud. l. 2. c. 19. sect. 7. (b) Eccl. Hist. l. 3. c. 5. p. 75. (c) Joseph. ib.

    January 10, 2018 at 1:10 pm#820709
    Miia
    Participant

    The physical location of Israel and Jerusalem are important in Bible prophecy because they are mentioned right to the end

     

    After Jesus came, Israel and Jerusalem were clearly shown to have become inward and heavenly.

    January 10, 2018 at 1:12 pm#820710
    Miia
    Participant

    God also promised to gather the Jewish people from all corners of the world which has been happening for a while and still is.

    If you study the early church writings… according to those, this event was prophesised to be later orchestrated by the antichrist, rather than God.

    January 10, 2018 at 1:21 pm#820713
    Miia
    Participant

    By this we know we live in an important season.

    YES it VERY important… and as an aside, the love of many (the lukewarm) have grown cold, and the lukewarm who have grown cold are falling asleep. Anyone noticed?

    January 10, 2018 at 1:21 pm#820714
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    After Jesus came, Israel and Jerusalem were clearly shown to have become inward and heavenly.

    I wouldn’t say that. I would say that Jerusalem and Israel are the physical representations of the heavenly. Water represents spirit, but it doesn’t negate water. There is an earthly and heavenly, like the body. God still gives us advice about our bodies. At some point the physical won’t matter such as receiving the new body. Till then, there is still significance. Heavenly Jerusalem is not where our bodies dwell currently and there are prophecies about real places in the Bible that are yet to take place. I will keep my eyes open because God reveals the future for a reason. We are not in heaven yet. We are not in our heavenly bodies yet. We are here and God speaks much about the here and now.

    January 10, 2018 at 9:06 pm#820727
    Miia
    Participant

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one t8.

    January 22, 2018 at 12:28 am#820946
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I already agree to disagree with your view based simply on the prophecies yet to come. For example, Armageddon is an actual place in Israel. The Hebrew ‘har mĕgiddōn’ means ‘hill of Megiddo’. We are also taught that Israel would become a nation again and that the Jews would move there from all over the world (where they were scattered). If we thought Israel had no significance, then the prophecies pertaining to Israel wouldn’t be significant. I do not believe that any prophecy is insignificant. If God spoke it to tell us or to warn us, then he did so for very good reasons. God gives us signs too. Many of them are related to Israel. Signs are also important.

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