Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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April 1, 2020 at 10:37 pm#862022
Berean
Participant

“Ayez en vous les sentiments qui étaient en Jésus-Christ.” Si vous vous efforcez en toute humilité de comprendre quels étaient les sentiments de Christ, vous ne serez pas abandonnés dans les ténèbres. Jésus dit: “Celui qui me suit ne marchera pas dans les ténèbres, mais il aura la lumière de la vie” (YI 13/10/1892).

Après que Christ ait consenti à abandonner Son autorité suprême, à descendre d’une hauteur infinie pour prendre l’humanité, il aurait pu prendre n’importe quelle condition de l’être humain qu’Il aurait choisie. Mais la grandeur et la hiérarchie n’étaient rien pour Lui, et Il choisit la forme de vie la plus humble. Bethléhem fut le lieu de Sa naissance. D’un côté, son ascendance était pauvre, mais Dieu, le propriétaire du monde, était Son Père.
Dans Sa vie, il n’y eut aucun vestige de luxe, de commodités, de complaisance propre ni de plaisirs, mais ce fut une succession continuelle d’abnégation et de sacrifice personnel. En accord avec Son humble naissance, il n’eut apparemment pas de grandeur ou de richesse, afin que le croyant le plus humble ne puisse pas dire que Christ ne connut jamais ce qu’était l’angoisse de la pauvreté profonde. S’Il avait possédé l’apparence de l’ostentation extérieure, des richesses et de la grandeur, les plus pauvres auraient évité Sa compagnie. C’est pour cela qu’Il choisit la condition humble de la plus grande majorité des gens (MS 9, 1896).
La foi ne doit pas reposer sur des évidences extérieures.
…
La foi des hommes en Christ en tant que Messie ne devait pas reposer sur les évidences extérieures et ils ne devaient pas croire en Lui à cause des attraits de Sa personne, mais en raison de l’excellence de Son caractère qu’ils n’avaient ni ne pourraient jamais trouver chez un autre (2 SP 39).
(Colossiens 2: 9; Éphésiens 3: 9; 1 Pierre 1: 11 et 12). Le mystère dans lequel les anges désirent plonger leurs regards.
En Christ habitait toute la plénitude de la Divinité. Mais la seule manière d’atteindre les hommes était en voilant Sa gloire du manteau de l’humanité. Christ a toujours haï de tout Son cœur le péché, mais Il aimait ceux qu’Il avait rachetés avec Son sang. Il souffrit à la place des hommes pécheurs, en les amenant à être en communion avec Lui-même.
Voilà le mystère dans lequel les anges désirent plonger leurs regards. Ils désirent connaître comment Christ put vivre et travailler dans un monde déchu, comment il put se mêler à l’humanité pécheresse. Pour eux, c’est un mystère que Celui qui haïssait d’une haine intense le péché puisse avoir la compassion la plus tendre envers les êtres qui commirent le péché (ST 20/1/1898).
(Colossiens 1: 26 et 27). Un mélange inexplicable.
Christ n’aurait rien pu faire durant Son ministère terrestre pour sauver les hommes déchus, si le divin ne s’était pas mélangé à l’humain. La capacité limitée de l’homme ne peut définir cet admirable mystère: le mélange des deux natures, la divine et l’humaine. Ceci ne pourra jamais être expliqué. L’homme doit s’émerveiller et rester silencieux. Et cependant, l’homme a le privilège d’être participant de la nature divine, et il peut ainsi, dans une certaine mesure, pénétrer le mystère (Lettre 5, 1889).
Le plus merveilleux de la terre et du ciel.
Quand nous désirons étudier un problème profond, nous concentrons notre esprit sur ce qu’il n’y eut jamais de plus merveilleux sur la terre ou dans le ciel: l’incarnation du Fils de Dieu. Dieu a donné son Fils pour qu’Il mourût d’une mort ignominieuse et honteuse pour les êtres humains pécheurs. Lui qui était le Commandant des parvis célestes, ôta Son manteau et Sa couronne de Roi, pour revêtir Sa divinité de l’humanité et venir dans ce monde pour être à la tête de la race humaine comme Homme modèle. Il s’humilia Lui-même pour souffrir avec la race humaine, pour être affligé de toutes ses tribulations.
Le monde entier Lui appartenait, mais Il se vida si complètement de Lui-même qu’Il déclara durant Son ministère: “Les renards ont des tanières, et les oiseaux du ciel ont des nids; mais le Fils de l’homme n’a pas où reposer Sa tête” [on cite Hébreux 2:14 à 18] (MS 76, 1903).
Christ au-dessus de toute loi.
Le Fils de Dieu vint volontairement pour mener à bien l’œuvre de l’expiation. Aucun joug obligatoire ne reposait sur Lui, car Il était indépendant et au-dessus de toute loi.
Les anges, en tant que messagers intelligents de Dieu, étaient sous le joug de l’obligation; aucun sacrifice de leur personne ne pouvait faire l’expiation pour l’homme déchu. Seul Christ était libre des exigences de la loi pour entreprendre la rédemption de la race pécheresse. Il avait le pouvoir de donner Sa vie pour la reprendre. “Existant en forme de Dieu, [Il] n’a point regardé comme une proie à arracher d’être égal avec Dieu” (SW 4/9/1906).
(Exode 3: 5). L’humanité de Christ est une chaîne dorée.
Christ se rendit obéissant jusqu’à la mort, même jusqu’à la mort de la croix, pour racheter l’homme. L’humanité du Fils de Dieu est tout pour nous. C’est la chaîne dorée qui unit nos âmes à Christ, et par Christ à Dieu. Ceci doit être notre étude. Christ était vraiment un homme, et Il démontra Son humilité en devenant un homme. Il était Dieu dans la chair.
Quand nous abordons le thème de la divinité de Christ revêtue du manteau de l’humanité, avec justice nous pouvons prêter attention aux paroles prononcées par Christ à Moïse devant le buisson ardent: “Ôte tes souliers de tes pieds, car le lieu sur lequel tu te tiens est une terre sainte.” Nous devons aborder l’étude de ce thème avec l’humilité de celui qui apprend avec un cœur contrit. L’étude de l’incarnation de Christ est un thème fructifère qui récompensera le chercheur qui creuse profondément à la recherche de la vérité cachée (MS 67, 1898).
6 (Jean 1: 1 à 3, 14). Voir le com. d’EGW sur Jean 1: 1 à 3; Apocalypse 12: 10. Égalité entre Christ et le Père.
La position de Christ avec Son Père est celle de l’égalité. Ceci lui permit de devenir l’offrande pour le péché des transgresseurs. C’était pleinement suffisant pour magnifier la loi et l’exalter (MS 48, 1893).

April 2, 2020 at 8:56 am#862039
Jodi
Participant
Hello All,
Before John became an apostle writing down for us the word of God’s gospel, that word of God’s gospel was declared by God before the world was.
Paul speaks of this gospel,
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
God’s gospel from the beginning according to the prophet Isaiah, was to be executed through the calling of a man, it is he that brings forth salvation. Likewise we read from the prophet Isaiah that salvation comes through God sending a man out into the world upon God resting His Spirit upon him.
So, in the beginning we have God’s word of LIFE, and God is LIFE, and God’s word was that by a man God’s word of LIFE would be executed/fulfilled. That same life is also for the man himself to receive, and he received it first as a firstborn of the dead. Such was the glory declared of God for man, before the world was.
There is no life without the man, as the life comes through the man and the life is for the man, thus all things that God says He created alone, by himself, is by reason of and for this man.
April 2, 2020 at 9:34 am#862040
Berean
Participant
Jodi

You didn’t answer my question.
And if ye see the Son of man go up where he was before?
Jodi
the apostles saw Jesus ascending to heaven where he had been before
Jodi
Jesus was with the Father in the beginning
This is also confirmed in John 6:46.
“For no man hath seen the Father, save he that is of God. He hath seen the Father.”
And also in John 1:14.
And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; and we have seen his glory, a glory as the glory of the only begotten Son from the Father.
1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried out, saying, This is he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is before me: for he was before me.
And also
18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God bless
April 2, 2020 at 10:16 am#862043
Berean
Participant
Jodi
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
you see Jodi
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens…
PSALMS 24 Jesus as king of glory entering through the gates of the celestial city of God…40 days after his resurrection; IN THIS PSALM, HE IS NAMED JEHOVAH OF THE HOSTS(see Also Daniel 8:11)
Hebrew Transliterated
24:7 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VHNSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYBV’a MLK HKBVD.
Darby’s English Translation
24:7 Lift up your heads, ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.
Hebrew Transliterated
24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.
Darby’s English Translation
24:8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.
Hebrew Transliterated
24:9 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYB’a MLK HKBVD.
Darby’s English Translation
24:9 Lift up your heads, ye gates; yea, lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.
Hebrew Transliterated
24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.
Darby’s English Translation
24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
THIS KING OF GLORY IS JESUS CHRIST PROPHETISED
April 2, 2020 at 1:35 pm#862053
Ed J
Participant
Hi Everyone,
No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.
It is ‘a tradition of men’ taught by ‘the systems of religion’.
When studied: You can see “The Word” is really God’s Holy Spirit.
____________
God bless
Ed J
April 2, 2020 at 1:36 pm#862054
Ed J
Participant
To All,
No-where in Scripture is Jesus said to be “The Word”.
It is ‘a tradition of men’ taught by ‘the systems of religion’.
When studied: You can see “The Word” is really God’s Holy Spirit.
____________
God bless
Ed J
April 2, 2020 at 6:14 pm#862069
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
We have pretty much the same discussion happening on multiple threads, lol. I saw earlier your quote from John 6 which applies to your post here on Ephesians 4.
John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (makes alive); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Berean, the above passage is speaking of Jesus’s resurrection. The Son of Man of FLESH died, and then he was RAISED UP from the dead having been quickened/made alive by the power of God’s Spirit. Jesus was dead, in the grave, which according to king David’s words in the OT is equivalent to descending to the lower parts of the earth. The people saw him no more until he was RAISED UP from the dead having ascended from there being brought back to life on earth.
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ
me: this is speaking of our resurrection through our debt of sin having been paid.
8 Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
me: this is speaking of the promise of the Holy Spirit coming down and anointing men to be apostles, healers, prophets after Jesus ascended to heaven
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus fulfills all things not by having been a pre-existing being who came to earth being able to then do nothing of himself. He fulfills all things as a Son of Man who received God’s Spirit for the purpose TO set us at liberty, free us of our sins and thus free us from the penalty of death, where he does so by shedding his blood and dying (as king David speaks of death, he descended to the lower parts of the earth). By his death he fulfills redemption bringing forth our promise to life, thus fulfilling all things, all the purpose to why God created heaven and earth in the first place, which you are told He did by himself, ALONE.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Jesus isn’t perfect because he pre-existed, he was said to have been MADE perfect by LEARNING OBEDIENCE through suffering as he was being persecuted unto a death. The very fact that through God’s Spirit He was able to perfect a human is the very reason WHY God through one man brings us all to righteousness and life, as Jesus is our example of God’s work upon a human and what God’s Spirit accomplishes in a human.
Do you get that??? It’s very profound. You think that God had to send a spirit son to earth to save us. NO! God saves through the power of His own Spirit. Jesus could do nothing of himself it was ALL God’s Spirit dwelling within his human flesh where God held his hand and kept him from sin, having called him to righteousness where he directed all his ways through His Spirit.

April 2, 2020 at 8:45 pm#862074
Berean
Participant
Hi Jodi
You
“Jesus is not perfect because he preexisted, it is said that he was made perfect by learning obedience through suffering …”
I never claimed to say that ….
I know very well that Jesus being in the flesh walked by faith in his Father being filled with the Spirit and that he lived as we should live …
But it’s still amazing how you want to IGNORE that
Jesus preexisted before being made flesh. It is mind-boggling the zeal you develop to escape the fact that Jesus IS FROM ABOVE AND NOT FROM BELOW.
IT MAKES ME SORRY TO SEE YOU BENDING THE TEXTS.
TO MAKE THEM SAY WHAT THEY DON’T SAY
April 3, 2020 at 3:47 am#862080
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Jodi…..Another perfect post. May God the Father continue to guide and strenthen you in the truth. Your doing a great Job sis.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
April 3, 2020 at 3:57 am#862082
carmel
Participant
Hi Jodi,
YOU:(Now that he ascended,
ME: TO THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN
what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
ME: HELL, GLORIFIED AS GODMAN IN THE SON OF GOD JESUS CHRIST AND REDEEMED ALL THOSE WHO ACCEPTED HIS GOSPEL
10 He that descended
ME:JESUS, FROM THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN, PRE-EXISTED
is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
that he might fill ALL THINGS .
ME: NOW IN ORDER FOR JESUS TO FILL,
ALL THINGS, with His spirit, “THE WORD”
EVEN THOSE AT THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN, SUCH AS LUCIFER AND HIS REBELLIOUS ANGELS, US, THE BEGINNING,
HE DEFINITELY PRE-EXISTED Jodi! WHY:
VERY SIMPLE, THUS: AS MUCH AS JESUS ASCENDED TO THE FARTHEST BOTTOM OF EARTH TO REDEEM ALL THE CONDEMNED,
JUSTIFIED AS TRUTH, AND ETERNAL LIFE,
HE HAD TO COMMENCE HIS TASK FROM THE UTMOST OF HEAVEN,
PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT,
JUSTIFIED AS THE BEGINNING,
SINCE HE FILLED ALL IN HIS SPIRIT.
NOT COMMENCE HIS TASK HALFWAY DOWN IN THE PROCESS ON EARTH! OTHERWISE
HE WOULD NOT FILL
JUSTLY
ALL THINGS!
Read and ACCEPT THE PURE TRUTH Jodi:
Colossians 1:1 5 Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
16For IN HIM were
ALL THINGS CREATED IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH visible and invisible,
whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers.
All things were created by him and in him.
17And he is before all:
and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church:
who is THE BEGINNING,
the firstborn from the dead,
(SPIRITUALLY DEAD, SINCE
THE SPIRIT,
GIVES LIFE, AND FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE FACT THAT HUMANS WERE DEAD ON THEIR BIRTH, SINCE ADAM SIN, EVEN THOSE WHO DON’T BELIEVE IN JESUS NOW )
that in
ALL THINGS HE (IN HIS SPIRIT)
may hold the primacy:
( THE FIRST HUMAN BEING WHO WAS BORN AGAIN IN
HIS SPIRIT,
THE MAN BORN AGAIN, JOHN3:3 SINCE THE FIRST ADAM DIED IN
HIS SPIRIT,
AND BY WHICH SPIRIT GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS IN
JESUS CHRIST GODMAN ON EARTH,
THE SECOND ADAM, THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT,
JESUS, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, dead in his tomb,
ORIGINALLY IN HIS SPIRIT, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8
POURED and EMPTIED HIMSELF OF
HIS SPIRIT, (He became poor and enriched HUMANITY,)
IN
ALL THINGS as eternal life,
RESURRECTED)
I REPEAT BY HIS OWN SPIRIT!
GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS. John 13:31-32, John17:1
GODMAN IN
JESUS CHRIST
YOU: Jesus fulfills all things not by having been a pre-existing
PURE LIES
being who came to earth being able to then do nothing of himself.
AS MUCH AS GOD THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF AS MAN.
UNLESS ACCEPT THE GENUINE FACT THAT
JESUS THE SON, IS GOD THE FATHER, and
GOD THE FATHER IS GOD THE SON.
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father.
And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and
to whom the Son will reveal him.
in his embodiment
YOU: He fulfills all things as a Son of Man who received God’s Spirit for the purpose TO set us at liberty, free us of our sins and thus free us from the penalty of death, where he does so by shedding his blood and dying
ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT
YOU: (as king David speaks of death, he descended to the lower parts of the earth). By his death he fulfills redemption
ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT
bringing forth our promise to life, thus fulfilling all things, all the purpose to why
God created heaven and earth in the first place, which you are told He did by himself, ALONE.
PURE LIES, UNLESS YOU, ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS GOD’S EMBODIMENT, “THE WORD”
GENESIS 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING (JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE BEGINNING,
“THE WORD”)
GOD CREATED
HEAVEN, (THE SPIRITS)
and EARTH (THE PHYSICAL)
ALL IN THE SON.
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON
Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 3, 2020 at 5:28 am#862085
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
I apologize for a misinterpretation to your belief.
I recall you saying that in order for us to be saved the pre-existing Jesus had to come down to earth.
You say he emptied himself when he came, of what exactly did he empty himself of and what exactly was left that came with him down to earth?
Jesus said he did not come of his own will.
Also Jesus said he could do nothing of himself.
So what was the point of him coming down to earth?
What did he have that God needed to send in order for us to be saved?
In order for us to be saved God had to anoint Jesus of Nazareth, the son of David.
Scripture tells me that a man was anointed with God’s Spirit and then was sent out into the world specifically in order TO save us, set us at liberty. Without that Spirit, there is no saving. We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth.
You are the one in full denial here.
First you deny prophecy of 1 Chronicles 17 and what you are told in Luke 1 and Romans 1. First you have a son of David and then God makes his son into His own Son.
The Son of Man has COME, thus was SENT, to save that which was lost, and he does so by being anointed with the full measure of the Spirit where he then is sent TO die for our sins bringing us eternal life. Upon Jesus being begotten of God’s Spirit at the river Jordan, God declares at that moment “THIS is my beloved Son”.
You think God is calling him his Son at that moment because he pre-existed as an only begotten Son, that it has nothing to do with the fact that he was just begotten of God’s Spirit without measure?
We also read that Jesus Christ IS called God’s only begotten Son who God sends to bring us eternal life. There is no eternal life without God having begotten Jesus with His Spirit and sending him out for the purpose TO save us.
YOU go and change the image of the Son of God and change the timing of the sending, DENYING the TOTAL OBVIOUS. Jesus of Nazareth the son of David God made him into His only begotten Son at the river Jordan and then sent him out into the world.
Berean, now you have totally misspoken according to my belief,
YOU:It is mind-boggling the zeal you develop to escape the fact that Jesus IS FROM ABOVE AND NOT FROM BELOW.
ME: Jesus Christ is ABSOLUTELY FROM ABOVE, He came from and was sent by God/heaven, He came from and was sent by the will of God/of heaven.
You DENY that Jesus said that he was not of this world as they were not of this world, that they were sent out into the world like he was sent out into the world. If you are doing the will of the Father you are considered to be not of this world. If God has given you of His Spirit and has sent you to perform His will you are coming from God/heaven.
April 3, 2020 at 7:57 am#862091
Berean
Participant
Jodi
you
I apologize for any misinterpretation of your beliefs.
I remember that you said that for us to be saved, the pre-existing Jesus had to come down to earth.
You say that he emptied himself when he arrived, what exactly did he empty himself of and what exactly did he have left to come down to earth?
Jesus said he did not come of his own free will.
ME
good question
What did he drain himself of?
He lived in the form of God, Paul tells us…
I don’t know how he emptied himself, but HE COVERED HIS DIVINITY.
WITH OUR HUMANITY.
IT IS THE WORK OF GOD BY THE POWER OF HIS SPIRIT.
I DON’T PRETEND TO EXPLAIN THESE THINGS.
I AM CONTENT WITH WHAT IS REVEALED.
SEE PHILIPIANS
JOHN 1
AND “THE WORD” was made FLESH.

April 3, 2020 at 9:29 am#862093
Berean
Participant
The Son of God was divine personne “in form of God”(in heaven) before HE come to earth
“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person(God the Father)
April 3, 2020 at 12:50 pm#862108
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
When Paul wrote Colossians Jesus was the Son of Man sitting at God’s right hand, was he not?
When Paul wrote Colossians Jesus was sitting at God’s right hand existing in the image of the invisible God was he not?
When Paul wrote Colossians was Jesus not in heaven sitting as firstborn overall creation into God’s eternal kingdom? YES, he was!
Recall, prophecy Psalm 8, God would be mindful of a human being, God would visit this human being, he would make this human being lower than the angels for the suffering of death, and then crown this human being with glory and honor, and then give this human being dominion over all the works of God. The one who receives dominion is NOT the one who made that which he receives dominion over.
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who IS the image of the invisible God, the firstborn overall creation:
Recall, God’s Spirit was upon Jesus in order for him TO be SENT out TO set us at liberty.
The WHO that IS in the image of the invisible God, sitting at the time Paul wrote this as the firstborn overall creation, is the MAN who SHED his blood.
Paul isn’t declaring who Jesus was at the beginning of creation, the creation mind you that we are directly told God created by himself, ALONE. Paul was speaking of who Jesus was and still IS at that moment he wrote to the Colossians. Paul just got done talking about partakers of the inheritance where they will join Jesus in the kingdom, and then he goes onto to tell them where Jesus now is upon him shedding his blood.
Berean, what do you do with the fact that prophecy tells you that a man would shed his blood for us and God says BECAUSE he did God gives him A PORTION with the great, where he divides that spoil with the mighty?
Also what do you do with the fact that from the beginning was God’s word of a man who would be called to execute God’s purpose of salvation for Zion unto Israel’s glory? I don’t believe for one second that it was the pre-existing man speaking about himself because he pre-exited as “the word” in Isaiah 46.
This man was IN the word from the beginning, and God created all things alone, by himself because of and for this man, as this man fulfills the purpose and this purpose is for him, where he then get’s to share it.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence first place.
Jesus was NOT first place, he was not a firstborn over all creation UNTIL he shed his blood and became firstborn of the dead.
This beginning is the very beginning that Jesus is firstborn of in verse 15, which that should be obvious given the very context spoken just prior of a man who shed his blood, and we read the context in verse 18 is of the firstborn of the dead.
Psalms 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
There is NO firstborn yet.
Also,
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
There was no Son existing with glory in the heavens at the time Isaiah wrote this.
April 3, 2020 at 1:22 pm#862112
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
Why are you telling me to see Philippians when I just went through it explaining many verses comparing them to your belief?
Jesus upon receiving the full measure of God’s Spirit is he who was in the form of God. He was also like man in that he was able to be tempted having his own flesh desires, and he was able to die like all men. He was not like man because he could not sin, thus another example of how Jesus was in the form of God.
I was hoping you could comment on the fact that Paul is asking people to be like minded with Jesus Christ. You really think Paul is telling people to be like minded with a spirit son who you say before he came to earth he was not a servant?
The word became flesh and the people beheld the glory of the begotten Son filled with grace and truth.
God’s word of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, 46, 61 was absolutely made true in Jesus’s flesh when he was begotten of the Spirit at the river Jordan where he received the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the Lord, YES he sure was FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH.
Berean what you believe seems so empty to me.
The people beheld the glory of Jesus because through God’s Spirit and all the powers he received, they heard him speak marvelous things, he knew their thoughts, he performed signs and miracles.
You really think that they beheld the glory of Jesus because he pre-existed having come down covering his divinity?
They beheld his glory because he WAS IN THE FORM OF GOD!!
The WORD in John 1 is God’s word of LIFE which is what God is, and that WORD of Life was in the beginning, and that WORD did not exist without the MAN who would bring that LIFE. All things were made by reason of the man who would fulfill that life, receive that life first and then share that life. God would have not made all things without the purpose of LIFE. He declared the END, the new beginning from the beginning we are directly told. The man Jesus, was in God’s word in the beginning, not Jesus pre-existed and was created in the beginning.
One is direct truth given to you, the other is a false belief from misinterpretation of passages where this very truth is not applied, and because of the misinterpretation the profound truth of passages is not seen or heard.
Don’t forget, God created all things himself, alone, where He made man in His own image, declared eternal life before the world was, created earth and man not in vain but for earth to be inhabited where all flesh will come to worship Him.
April 4, 2020 at 9:19 am#862158
carmel
Participant
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Jesus upon receiving the full measure of God’s Spirit is
he who was in the form of God.
NO Jodi,
JESUS WAS NOT IN THE FORM OF GOD ON HIS BAPTISM!
GOD’S FORM IS NOT OF FLESH!
GOD’S FORM IS OF SPIRIT!
JESUS WALKED ON EARTH AS
GOD IN FLESH
Read scriptures:
John10:33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou. being a man,
makest thyself, God.

Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is
the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS)
which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)
was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT, (Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come. And he hath given us understanding that
we may know the true God and may be in his true Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
April 4, 2020 at 9:59 am#862160
Berean
Participant
Jodi
It is not the Holy Spirit
that inspired you to say such things…
Repent of not honoring the Father and the Son…
April 4, 2020 at 11:35 am#862161
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
I do honor the Father and the Son, just because I don’t honor them according to your belief does not equate to me not honoring them at all. With that honor I give to them, I am greatly thankful to my heavenly Father for His promise that I am to be an heir of Him and a joint heir with Christ. I believe that promise has been sealed through the work that our Father accomplished in Jesus upon his anointing of the Spirit in full measure, as the result of that work was setting me free.

April 4, 2020 at 11:37 am#862162
carmel
Participant
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Without that Spirit, there is no saving.
ME: THAT’S WHY JESUS IS ONE OF A KIND.
BECAUSE HE WAS “THE WORD”
A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH.
FURNISHED BY THE FATHER
Hebrews 10:5Wherefore, when he cometh into the world he saith: Sacrifice and oblation thou wouldest not:
but a body thou hast fitted to me.
Luke 10:22 All things(regarding the flesh) are delivered to me by my Father.
And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:
and who the Father is, but the Son and
to whom the Son will reveal him.
in his embodiment.
THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER,
HEBREWS 1:3 Who being
the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory and
the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance and
upholding all things by the word of his(FATHER’S) power,
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO ANOINTED. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO SACRIFICE.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO REDEEMER.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO CHRIST.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)
Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is
the mystery of godliness, (THE DIVINE TASK OF JESUS)
which was manifested in the flesh,( GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH)
was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT,
(Philippians 2:6 not robbery to be ( JUSTIFIED) EQUAL WITH GOD:)
YOU: We are saved by our heavenly Father through the operation of His Spirit by it coming to rest upon Jesus of Nazareth.
NOT PRECISE IN RELATION TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING REGARDING JESUS’DIVINITY!
THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF REGARDING REDEMPTION.
THAT’S WHY LUCIFER/ SATAN REBELLED. HE CONCLUDED THAT GOD WOULD NEVER MAKE IT ON EARTH ONCE HE GOT HOLD OF THE FIRST COUPLE, AND CORRUPTED THE WHOLE PROCESS OF THE WORLD WITH HIS EVIL SPIRIT AND HIS DEMONS, AND OWNED THE POWER OF DEATH. ISAIAH 14:12-14
Thus the Father sent His son Isaiah 6:8-11, Pinpointed out by Jesus in
Luke 10:18And he said to them: I saw Satan like LIGHTNING falling from heaven. (Jesus was in Lucifer’s heart as his life source and to be under God’s power)
The Father furnished His Son, GOD’S “WORD” with THE FLESH, not to own for Himself, but to offer it as a sacrifice for the LOVE of the Father and God’s kingdom in ALL SOULS, one-third of the heavenly realms of LIGHT, Lucifer’s SUBSTANCE, THE LOST SHEEP. IN WHOSE HEART WAS “THE WORD” ETERNAL LIFE, HE REMAINED TRAPPED IN THEM, SIMPLY TO MAINTAIN ALL ALIVE BY
HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. IN ORDER FOR THE SPIRIT OF THE SON TO BECOME THE PROPRIETOR OF THE PHYSICAL CREATION ALL IN HIM John 17:2 BUT THROUGH DEATH.
BY WHICH DEATH THE FATHER IMMEDIATELY RECEIVED BACK WHAT HE FURNISHED HIS SON WITH, THE FLESH,
THE SON OF MAN, GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST.
IN RETURN THE FATHER IN THE HOLY GHOST GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS GODMAN ON EARTH,
JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD
THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH 1John 5:20
FURNISHED HIS SPIRIT,
THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, IN WHICH SPIRIT WAS FUSED “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED, AND
GAVE LIFE TO JESUS’S SPIRIT ORIGINALLY SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, ENGRAFTED IN ALL SOULS SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, BY WHICH SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY GAVE LIFE ALSO
JESUS’ DEAD BODY,
THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD!
EMBODIED AUTHENTICALLY IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.
THUS THE DIVINE BODY WHICH WAS FURNISHED BY THE FATHER TO
“THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN FOR REDEMPTION, THE BODY WHICH WAS GLORIFIED WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON THE CROSS, AND BACK TO THE FATHER, WAS GIVEN TO
THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!
ON JESUS’ RESURRECTION! WEll asserted in
1Peter 1:3Blessed be
THE GOD and FATHER
of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead:
4Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

NOT ONLY THAT BUT, THAT SAME DAY AT 6 IN THE EVENING, BOTH THE RESURRECTED
JESUS NOT YET PERFECT, SINCE IT WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, AND ONLY GOD IS PERFECT,
AND JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS
GODMAN ON EARTH INTEGRATED AND BECAME ONE SUBSTANCE, DIVINE/ HUMAN, not two anymore but TWO IN ONE
FLESH
GOD OF ALL FLESH
OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER
JESUS CHRIST
Peace and love in Jesus Christ

April 4, 2020 at 12:08 pm#862163
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
I’ve tried to make the point that Jesus said he could do nothing of himself, he gave all credit of that which he was doing to God. If it is all God unto His work through Jesus by the anointing of the Spirit, then sending a pre-existing son holds absolutely no purpose in my eyes. Scripture tells me clearly that Jesus didn’t pre-exist, this just makes it further evident.
Jesus himself tells us the very purpose for his anointing of the fullness of the Spirit, and one of the key purposes he tells us was for him to be sent out to set us at liberty/pay our debt. Also he tells us that he was sent for the purpose to preach God’s word, and Jesus said that the words that he speaks are Spirit and they are Life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
We live through the words that God gave Jesus to speak as they are Spirit and they are life unto those who believe, and we live through Jesus as he set us free from the penalty of death. These both occurred not through sending down a pre-existing son into the world, they occurred through God having anointed Jesus with the full measure of His Spirit.
God didn’t make a promise to send down an only begotten son to save the world.
God DID PROMISE that He would be a Father unto a son of David, and God DID PROMISE that He would anoint Jesse’s son with His Spirit for the purpose of him to be SENT to speak God’s words, to deliver captives, to set us at liberty.
How perfect then it is that God’s word given to Jesus to say unto us is that Jesus IS the Son of Man who has COME/thus was SENT to save that which was lost. How perfect then it is that we hear God’s promise made true in Jesus concerning his anointing, and him having been begotten by God’s Spirit in full measure.
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He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens…

ALL THINGS, with His spirit, “THE WORD”

JUSTIFIED AS TRUTH, AND ETERNAL LIFE,

JUSTIFIED AS THE BEGINNING,

SINCE HE FILLED ALL IN HIS SPIRIT.

JUSTLY

ALL THINGS!

ALL THINGS CREATED IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH visible and invisible,

All things were created by him and in him.

17And he is before all:

who is THE BEGINNING,

THE SPIRIT,

ALL THINGS HE (IN HIS SPIRIT)

HIS SPIRIT,

HIS SPIRIT,

AND BY WHICH SPIRIT GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS IN

JESUS CHRIST GODMAN ON EARTH,

JESUS, THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, dead in his tomb,

POURED and EMPTIED HIMSELF OF

HIS SPIRIT, (He became poor and enriched HUMANITY,)

IN

ALL THINGS as eternal life,

RESURRECTED)

I REPEAT BY HIS OWN SPIRIT!

GODMAN IN

JESUS CHRIST

PURE LIES

And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and

to whom the Son will reveal him.

in his embodiment

ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT

ME: AS GOD THE FATHER COULD NOT

GENESIS 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING (JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE BEGINNING,

“THE WORD”)

HEAVEN, (THE SPIRITS)

and EARTH (THE PHYSICAL)

ALL IN THE SON.

THE KINGDOM OF THE SON

GOD IN FLESH

makest thyself, God.

This is the true God and life eternal.

ME: THAT’S WHY JESUS IS ONE OF A KIND.

BECAUSE HE WAS “THE WORD”

A SPIRIT, MADE FLESH.

FURNISHED BY THE FATHER

but a body thou hast fitted to me.

Luke 10:22 All things(regarding the flesh) are delivered to me by my Father.

And no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father:

and who the Father is, but the Son and

in his embodiment.

THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER,

the brightness of his (FATHER’S) glory and

the figure of his (FATHER’S) substance and

upholding all things by the word of his(FATHER’S) power,

WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO ANOINTED. (because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO SACRIFICE.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO REDEEMER.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

WITHOUT JESUS THERE’S NO CHRIST.(because he was divine and emptied himself of His divinity)

was JUSTIFIED in the SPIRIT,

JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD

THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH 1John 5:20

GAVE LIFE TO JESUS’S SPIRIT ORIGINALLY SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, ENGRAFTED IN ALL SOULS SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, BY WHICH SPIRIT IMMEDIATELY GAVE LIFE ALSO

JESUS’ DEAD BODY,

EMBODIED AUTHENTICALLY IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE.

“THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN FOR REDEMPTION, THE BODY WHICH WAS GLORIFIED WITH THE HOLY GHOST ON THE CROSS, AND BACK TO THE FATHER, WAS GIVEN TO

THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

1Peter 1:3Blessed be

THE GOD and FATHER

of our Lord Jesus Christ,

FLESH

GOD OF ALL FLESH

OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER

JESUS CHRIST

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