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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 19,761 through 19,780 (of 25,953 total)
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  • March 28, 2020 at 7:48 am#850963
    Berean
    Participant

    jodi or Gene

    Jesus is before all things. (Colossiens 1)

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    this cannot be dismantled

    ETERNAL TRUTH to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews13:8)

    God bless

    March 28, 2020 at 7:53 am#850964
    Berean
    Participant

    jodi or Gene

    Jesus is before all things. (Colossiens 1)

    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    this cannot be dismantled

    ETERNAL TRUTH to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Hebrews13:8)

    God bless.

    March 28, 2020 at 9:22 am#850965
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Good words Berean!

    This passage is so wonderful:
    Philippians 2

    Be Like Christ

    1Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW,of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Blessings, LU

    March 28, 2020 at 9:51 am#850966
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen

    Words’ S song (Héritage singers)

    Because of love He left His throne
    And made this Earth His home
    He did it willingly
    For you and me
    With heaven left behind
    He came to save all mankind
    From sin and shame
    He could have walked away
    But instead He chose
    To stay upon that tree
    And take a crown of thrones for me
    Because of love
    Because of love He bore my pain (He bore my pain)
    Shouldering the blame
    Why did He chose to go (He didn’t have to go)
    How could He love me so
    Because of love He called to me (He called to me)
    He said “Child I will set you free (You’ll have)
    Life abundantly (Life abundantly)
    Because of love (Because of love)
    He gave unselfishly
    Caused my blinded to eyes to see
    It was you and me He had in mind
    On that road to Calvary
    I’ve never known such a perfect love
    I had fallen down but He…

     

    God bless

    March 28, 2020 at 10:20 am#850967
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Lovely song, thanks for sharing. I listened to it here:


    Stay well, LU

     

    March 28, 2020 at 10:32 am#850968
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    NO it does not, and is this your only passage that you have?

    The LORD says that which Jesus will do, and what Jesus does are not his own works but he performs the LORD’S works so that they will trust in the LORD. Jesus does not come on his own, the people are to know that the LORD sends him, and the LORD says what he will do. By believing in Jesus, as he is a messenger of the LORD, they are believing in the LORD.

    Who is sent?

    Mark 8: 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Zech 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me (Jesus) unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. 9 For, behold, I (Jesus) will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me (Jesus). Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I (Jesus) come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD (the LORD says that Jesus will come and what he will do). 11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day (Such is the purpose of Jesus, to bring people to the LORD, where then the LORD gives the people to Jesus to rule over them), and shall be my (Jesus’s) people: and I (Jesus) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me (Jesus) unto thee.

    Matthew 2:. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 

    John 8:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

    HOW is it that Jesus does the Father’s works, both while he was on earth and when he returns?

    Recall, Jesus was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, and on that day we are also told that he was begotten by the LORD and that he became a firstborn of many brethren.

    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. 6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. 8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed. 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

     

     

     

    March 28, 2020 at 10:53 am#850970
    Berean
    Participant

    2 CORINTHIANS 8:9] For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    that, though he was rich,(in heaven)

    yet for your sakes he became poor,(on earth)

    that ye through his poverty might be rich.(spiritually)

    March 28, 2020 at 1:23 pm#850979
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thank you as always for your support and encouragement brother! Love to you, Jodi

    March 28, 2020 at 1:33 pm#850980
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    That is far from the only verse that mentions two, it was just the one that fell out of the sky last night and dropped in front of me. I’m kidding, actually I hadn’t seen that one before last night.

    I expect you to not be able to see the two Jehovahs in that verse, your lens prohibits you.

    God bless, LU

     

    March 28, 2020 at 1:53 pm#850981
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1. Who do you think is the “I”?
    2. Who do you think is the “me”?
    3. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    4. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

     

    March 29, 2020 at 4:49 am#851002
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: You said: He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.

    Where do you get that in the Bible?

    I get that idea from the countless scriptures that refer to Jesus as God’s Son. 😉  The closest example we have of a cloned person would be an identical twin.   Has there ever been a case where one identical twin is considered the father or son of the other one?

    Plus, you can’t deny that in your scenario, one of the entities was already in existence before the other one existed, right?  So we still have a case where the existence of the LATTER entity was the direct result of a conscious decision by the FORMER entity to bring forth into existence a second entity.

    That sounds a lot like a case of God (the Original and Originator) choosing to create (bring forth into existence) another living being.  In other words, it sounds a lot like what the scriptures tell us (“brought me forth as the first of his works”, “beginning of the creation by God”, “firstborn of every creature”, “today I have begotten a son”, etc.)

    Hey Kathi, what if Jesus is just the first creation by God – like the scriptures clearly seem to indicate?  What would stop you from accepting that?  Would it be something scriptural?  Or something personal?

    March 29, 2020 at 5:00 am#851003
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.

    Your word “behoove” illustrates my point.  I asked if one Creator/Entity can have two DIFFERENT wills.   And the logical answer is no.  If one makes a conscious decision to align his will with the will of the other, then there are two – not one.

    Do you ever wonder why you have to perform so many scriptural and philosophical gymnastics to try to explain your version of God?  Think Occam’s Razor.  The most sensible understanding of ONE God creating the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them THROUGH his holy servant is that there is truly ONE God… AND his holy servant who is someone other than him.  Agreed?

    March 29, 2020 at 5:13 am#851004
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup:  …the Father is God to both the Son and the church albeit indirectly to the church since He has placed Christ in the direct position to the church after the resurrection.

    So the servant’s GOD has given His servant a position of prominence?  What does it mean Jehovah is the God of His servant Jesus – if Jesus and the Father together make up the entity of Jehovah?  Could it be that our God and creator is Jehovah… and Jesus’ God and creator is Jehovah too – like the scriptures clearly indicate?

    As for the virus, I’ll state it plainly:  There is no such thing as a contagious virus, and never has been.  But point taken that it is off topic here.

    March 29, 2020 at 5:18 am#851005
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean. …..Jesus is before us in  all things,  in regards to the kingdom of God,   but he is always subject to God the Father, in authority.

    1 Cor 15:27….”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet, it is “manifest” that “he is excepted”, which put “all things” under him.”

    Berean are you able to actually understand that scripture?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

     

    March 29, 2020 at 5:20 am#851006
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Lightenup: Hi Jodi,

    You spend many words trying to convince us that Jesus is a man. Who is debating that here? Many of us believe that Jesus existed in another manner before he was brought forth into Mary’s womb to become that man though.

    That is a great summary of what I’ve noticed as well.  Many words and scriptures to demonstrate that God foretold Jesus’ time on earth, and that he was a man upon whom God placed His Holy Spirit and through whom God did many miracles and wonders.  But none of which, as far as I can tell so far, scripturally deny Jesus’ existence in heaven before he emptied himself and was made as a human being.

     

     

    March 29, 2020 at 5:20 am#851007
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    An identical twin is not a clone, Mike. A clone has an original to clone to. I propose that the original, in the case of an eternal source, is either the eternally existing father and son where the son is existing but not yet begotten or the potential father and son before asexual reproduction begins. Since you are wrong immediately in your first sentence above in your post, you build the rest of your post on sand and the definition of “clone” washed it away.

    Here is the definition:

    an organism or cell, or group of organisms or cells, produced asexually from one ancestor or stock, to which they are genetically identical.

    That fits a father/son relationship. When that happens for the very first time, that which is in the father is equally in the son and all substance is the same age. Asexual reproduction is not a creation but a reproduction. The Son was begotten, not created. Adam was created, Adam was not begotten when he became the first man. There is a difference between created sons and begotten sons. Jesus is the only begotten Son. In the cell theory, if the original cell asexually reproduced only one time and was not begotten itself, then the begotten cell would have the very same eternal substance as the original. That can only be said of the very first generation of an eternal existing original. The original is actually not a father nor a son but a potential father and son. Once it starts the asexual reproductive process, then the relationship begins. Whether the Father was eternally in a father relationship (which would require the son to eternally exist as a son also) or if the original was a potential father/son really doesn’t change the idea that both father and son existed as long as the other.

    Mike says: Hey Kathi, what if Jesus is just the first creation by God – like the scriptures clearly seem to indicate? What would stop you from accepting that? Would it be something scriptural? Or something personal?

    You show me scriptures that say Jesus is the first creation by God and I will accept that. You haven’t been able to do that. Nothing you have shown me challenges the eternally existing original, asexually reproducing only one offspring identical to themselves.

    Thanks for the discussion, though.

    March 29, 2020 at 5:26 am#851008
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean and All,

    Scripture directly tells us that Yehovah gave His word from the beginning that a man would be called to execute His purpose for the creation that He by Himself made and that purpose was to give mankind eternal salvation. 

    Scripture directly tells us that God actually declared that salvation before the world even began, as He promised us eternal life before the world began.

    Prophecy directly tells us that our savior to come would be a human.

    Scripture directly tells us that a human of the genes of David did God raise up to be a savior, doing so according to a promise.

    Scripture directly tells us that before this human was born “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began”

    Scripture directly tells us that God would bring forth this horn of salvation from the house of David, who would rule over David’s house, being born according to a sign of a virgin birth.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus before and after he was raised from the dead is a human and that his Genesis comes from being of the genes of David and Abraham.

    Scripture directly tells us that it is a human who sits at God’s right hand in heaven.

    Scripture directly tells us that a human is returning and will sit on the throne of his father David according to the flesh.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus IS the root and offspring of David.

    Scripture directly tells us that God will be all in all, and where He gives of His Spirit and people have a heart of flesh that follows all His ways.

    Scripture directly tells us that all flesh will come to worship God.

    Scripture directly tells us that a man rose from the dead and received the promise of the Holy Spirit and the mercies of David, where God begat him on that day.

    Scripture directly tells us that this man was raised first in an order of men becoming a firstborn of many brethren.

    Scripture directly tells us that Yehovah would crown a man with glory and honor and give him dominion over all the works of Yehovah and put all things under his feet.

    Scripture directly tells us that the son of David who was crucified God made him both a lord and the Anointed.

    Scripture directly tells us that a Son of Man is a lord even over the Sabbath.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus is a son of David and is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead.

    Prophecy directly tells us that a man would come and through God’s Spirit upon him he would be sent out to set people free of their sins through his death, and for that reason he would be raised from the dead and given a portion among the great and mighty where he is appointed to dived it.

    Scripture directly tells us that the man Jesus could do nothing of himself and that he speaks Gods words to us and performs God’s purpose according to God’s Spirit resting upon him.

    Scripture directly tells us that God would raise up a prophet from among brethren and God would put His words into this man’s mouth, and those who believed on him would be rewarded and those who didn’t would be punished.

    Scripture directly tells us that Jesus received of God’s Spirit not by measure, where the bible can confirm that he was the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit at this measure of fullness.

    Jesus tells us that God’s Spirit came upon him, called AN ANOINTING so that he could be SENT out to execute God’s purpose, to which we know that purpose had been declared by God before He made heaven and earth by Himself.

    Scripture directly tells us that it is by a man who God ordained that would judge the quick and the dead, and he would not judge by his own eyes and ears.

    Scripture directly tells us that a Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father and will reward every man for his works.

    Scripture directly tells us that we are heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, and that we are partakers of God’s divine nature.

    Scripture directly tells us that God made man in His own image, and that He did not make earth and man in vain but for earth to be inhabited where people seek after Him.

    Jesus tells us that whoever will do the will of God the same is his brother, his sister, and his mother.

    Jesus directly tells us that only God is good, and all throughout the bible we read of God giving humans of His mercy/goodness, where the fruits of His Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, and temperance.

    Scripture tells us that Jesus grew as a child with God’s grace being upon him.

    Scripture also directly tells us that God gives of His Spirit to make humans wise, to cause people to have understanding, to give them of His council and might, to give them knowledge and fear of Him, where He makes by His Spirit some prophets, some healers, some apostles, some teachers.

    Prophecy directly tells us that a son of Jesse would receive all the above gifts in order to be sent out to fulfill God’s purpose. This prophecy is directly told to us by Jesus as being fulfilled in him, and we read that him being sent out into the world began in Galilee.

    We read that before the coming of Jesus that John prepared his way preaching baptism and repentance.

    Jesus also tells us that people after he ascends to sit at God’s right hand would receive gifts of the Holy Spirit. Jesus also speaks of these people as being not of this world as he is not of this world, and that they are sent as he was sent.

    “Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”

    AND SO HERE WE ARE

    “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.”

    “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by ONE MAN, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Berean and ALL, our heavenly Father made all things, creating heaven, earth, and man by Himself, by reason of and for the ONE MAN Jesus Christ. This ONE MAN was declared before all things came to be, and in him do all things consist, without him nothing would have been made. 

     

    March 29, 2020 at 5:38 am#851009
    Lightenup
    Participant

     

    Mike

    Mike, you asked: Can one creator have two different wills?

    LU: Yes when the two are perfectly united.

    Mike: That seems counterintuitive to me.  How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will?  Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will.  But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?

    Again, Mike, and I told you this in my original response to you, I didn’t say that two different wills united as one single will. You added the “one single will” part. One single will is different than one united will. This is what I told you:

    LU: I didn’t say that the two wills were perfectly united as one single will. The two wills are perfectly united to do the will of the Father acknowledging the Father as the authority. This doesn’t make the Son’s will (is) less wise or less in anyway but demonstrates the perfect wisdom and love of the Son.

    For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.

    Understand? Two wills united as one united will still realizes two distinct wills, but both are in agreement.

     

    March 29, 2020 at 5:47 am#851010
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi all,

    Answering these questions might help realize something. Please respond…it should lead to an interesting discussion.

    Here is a quiz:

    Read this sentence all by itself apart from context, then answer the questions:

    And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.

    1.Who do you think is the “I”?2.Who do you think is the “me”?
    2. Who do you think is the LORD of hosts?
    3. Are they the same person in questions 1,2 and 3 or different persons?

    March 29, 2020 at 6:30 am#851011
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: I do not at all deny that God created all things through Jesus. I declare it and find it to be a most profound truth… God’s purpose for His creation would be executed through a man whom God calls (Isaiah 46), and it is Jesus who IS that man.

    I agree with almost everything in your post.  Yes, Jesus was a man whom God foretold He’d send.

    Jodi:  Eternal life does not come to us because God sent a spirit son down to earth. 

    This part I take issue with.  Where can I read in scripture that the messiah must be a man who is exactly like any other man?  After all, even in your understanding, Jesus was never like any other man.  Who else had a human mother but not a human father?  So that right there should tell us that the man Jesus is quite different from all other men, right?

    Also, your statement is akin to you saying, “Eternal life does not come to us from a man whom God made from rock on the ground.”   

    You seem to be falling into the mindset of the Pharisees whom John the Baptizer scolded.  In their minds, being a son of Abraham was ONLY possible by the normal means of being a natural descendant of Abraham’s loins.  Yet John told them that God could raise up children of Abraham from rocks, right?  So had God raised up Jesus from rocks and called him a son of Jesse, you’d likely cry foul because in your own mind, a son of Jesse MUST BE one who came through Jesse’s loins in the normal way.

    So can you see the error in your thinking?  Yes, Jesus is a son of David.  But God could have raised him up as a son of David without even going through Mary.  God could have raised up this particular son of David from a rock .  Likewise, God could have raised up this particular son of David by sending His spirit son to be born of a human woman.

    Thoughts?

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