Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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March 26, 2020 at 11:39 am#850910
Berean
Participant
John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
BY HIM
HIM SIGNIFIES A PERSON
BY

1223
dia
dia
dee-ah’
a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):–after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.
note: strong places first:” a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional”
EXAMPLES
1:17 For the law was given by(dia) Moses, [but] grace and truth came by(dia) Jesus Christ.
others means but not “dia”
John.6
[18] And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
18
h te qalassa anemou megalou pneontoV dihgeireto
6:18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
dihgeireto:
1326
diegeirw
diegeiro
dee-eg-i’-ro
from dia – dia 1223 and egeirw – egeiro 1453; to wake fully; i.e. arouse (literally or figuratively):–arise, awake, raise, stir up.
here “dia”
John.12
11
oti polloi di auton uphgon twn ioudaiwn kai episteuon eiV ton ihsoun
12:11 Because that by reason(dia) of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

10
kai gar oude dedoxastai to dedoxasmenon en toutw tw merei eneken thV uperballoushV doxhV
3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
Note/here this not the word “dia” but ” eneken”

1752
eneka
heneka
or heneken hen’-ek-en or heineken hi’-nek-en of uncertain affinity; on account of:–because, for (cause, sake), (where-)fore, by reason of, that.

one last
same grec word:” eneken”
10
makarioi oi dediwgmenoi eneken dikaiosunhV oti autwn estin h basileia twn ouranwn
5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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God bless

March 26, 2020 at 11:51 am#850911
Berean
Participant
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
EPHESIANS 3

March 26, 2020 at 12:02 pm#850913
Berean
Participant
[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
EPHESIANS 3
WHY THE BEST TRADUCTION OF THE BIBLE TRANSLATE ” BY JESUS CHRIST” AND not “FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS CHRIST” ????????
March 26, 2020 at 12:08 pm#850915
Lightenup
Participant
Jodi, regarding what the Jews thought about the Word in John 1:1…they likely connected that to the Memra of the OT Targums. Google Memra and John 1:1. For some reason when I post the link, my post doesn’t go through.

March 26, 2020 at 12:11 pm#850916
Lightenup
Participant
Jodi, regarding the Psalm 2:7 passage about “today I have begotten you,” I believe that refers to the begetting from the grave. He is the firstBORN from the dead.
March 26, 2020 at 1:32 pm#850918
mikeboll64
Blocked
Lightenup: The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell.
The original cell was alive before the other one ever existed, and we could consider that situation as the latter cell being created/begotten/brought forth by the former. So the Jesus cell would still owe his very existence to the Father cell that gave him that existence. Also, the Father has a mind and a will, unlike the cell. He didn’t just undergo an uncontrollable cloning event, and out popped Jesus. He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself. Plus, the latter cell would “know” EVERYTHING the former cell knows. That is not the case with Jesus and his and our God, Yahweh.
Kathi, on a side note, are you aware that contagious viruses don’t even exist – and never have?
March 26, 2020 at 1:48 pm#850920
mikeboll64
Blocked
Ed: Quit trying to change what Scripture says to fit your beliefs! …Jesus did not create nor help create in any way.
I haven’t changed a single scripture of which I’m aware. There is one God who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them. (Acts 4) He did that THROUGH His holy servant Jesus. I don’t know what “through” means though. God created you through your parents. You parents had no power of their own to create you, so we could honestly say that God, by Himself, created you. But He chose to do that THROUGH your parents, and in the case of Jesus’ flesh existence, through only one parent. So did Mary have any “hands on” involvement in the creation of Jesus as a man? Did your parents exercise any will or have direct involvement in the creation of Ed J? In the latter case, of course they did. But Yahweh still – alone and by Himself – created Ed J. He did it through your parents, but could have just as easily raised you up from rocks, right?
So I don’t know the answer, man. All I know is that Jehovah ALONE is the creative force behind the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… and that those things were created through His only begotten Son. I assume there was some “hands on” or at least some creative input from Jesus and God’s other spirit sons (Let US make man in OUR image), but the Bible doesn’t tell us exactly how it went down.
March 26, 2020 at 1:53 pm#850921
mikeboll64
Blocked
Lightenup: Mike, you asked:
Can one creator have two different wills?
Yes when the two are perfectly united.
That seems counterintuitive to me. How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will? Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will. But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?
March 26, 2020 at 1:59 pm#850922
mikeboll64
Blocked
Lightenup: When you get stuck with the fact that the Bible said all things were made by God alone and also it says that God made all things through the Son, it really is as simple as recognizing that Jehovah God is both the God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son) two persons.
So then…
1 Cor 8:6
for us there is but one God, Jehovah, from whom all things came, and there is but one Lord, Jehovah, through whom all things came ?
How come Jehovah God tells us that Jehovah God is his and our God?
March 26, 2020 at 2:04 pm#850923
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: HE CAN’T HAVE ORIGINALLY BEEN A CREATURE OF GOD.
But at least 4 different scriptures say he is. And “before all things” doesn’t change that. Your “fullness of the Godhead” scripture is a bad translation. So is “and the Word was God”.
I thought we agreed that the Father was the only Almighty God, and that He created all things. Maybe I was misunderstanding you. Anyway, I’m glad you realize that the Bible is chock full of dozens of different gods. That one stumbles the majority of people due to the “monotheistic” tradition taught by men but nowhere in the Bible.
March 26, 2020 at 2:14 pm#850924
mikeboll64
Blocked
Jodi: Hi All,
Passages that Gene and I speak of are passed over time and time again and are NOT APPLIED, they are disregarded. You are far from the truth when you refuse to apply scripture with scripture.
In all fairness, you include a LOT of scriptures in virtually every post, Jodi. 😉 That’s perfectly fine, but I personally only have a limited amount of time. I can’t make a post that addresses all that stuff at once. The scriptures you posted this time teach that Jesus is the Messiah that Jehovah foretold He’d raise up for Israel. I agree with that. But none of them indicate, even slightly, that Jesus didn’t preexist his flesh. On the other hand, there are dozens that clearly state he did.
Just for starters, how do you explain/deny that God created all things through Jesus?
March 26, 2020 at 3:00 pm#850926
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Mike,
I said: The only difference is one cell is the begetter cell, the other is the begotten cell.
You said:
The original cell was alive before the other one ever existed, and we could consider that situation as the latter cell being created/begotten/brought forth by the former. So the Jesus cell would still owe his very existence to the Father cell that gave him that existence. Also, the Father has a mind and a will, unlike the cell. He didn’t just undergo an uncontrollable cloning event, and out popped Jesus. He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself. Plus, the latter cell would “know” EVERYTHING the former cell knows. That is not the case with Jesus and his and our God, Yahweh.
The original cell’s living substance became the living substance of both resulting cells. New substance was added equally to both to complete the unzipped original DNA strands. Both resulting cells have within them the living substance that existed within the original cell. The Nucleus of the original cell, divides and half stays in one cell and half goes to the other. No new nucleus is created, it is simply divided.
You said: He chose to create another entity as His firstborn Son – not an equal clone of Himself.
Where do you get that in the Bible? He may have chosen to have a Son but this binary fission shows us that it is not a creative process but a reproductive process. Like the binary fission process, the living substance in both the Father and the Son would be as equal in age as the living substance in the original condition since it is the same living substance portioned out equally to each cell. Also, how did you know that He didn’t clone Himself? As far as the latter cell knowing everything the former cell knows, well each cell has the same makeup to be perfect and divine and all that entails but each cell experiences a different position and relationship…one is on the right, one is on the left for instance, one is the begetter, one is the begotten. The begetter does not experience how it is to be the begotten and visa versa.

Here are a couple videos on the process:
DNA Replication https://youtu.be/TNKWgcFPHqw
Binary Fission https://youtu.be/OAcz-tFGY0Y
March 26, 2020 at 3:12 pm#850927
Lightenup
Participant
Mike
Mike, you asked: Can one creator have two different wills?
LU: Yes when the two are perfectly united.
Mike: That seems counterintuitive to me. How could there be two DIFFERENT wills, yet perfectly united as one single will? Perfectly united implies two identical wills, therefore only one total will. But we know Jesus has a will of his own, and willingly conforms his own will to align with his God’s will, right?
I didn’t say that the two wills were perfectly united as one single will. The two wills are perfectly united to do the will of the Father acknowledging the Father as the authority. This doesn’t make the Son’s will less wise or less in anyway but demonstrates the perfect wisdom and love of the Son.
For instance, you and your father have two distinct wills. If your father was perfect in wisdom and in every way, it would behoove you to do as he wills you to do and not defy his will.
March 26, 2020 at 3:34 pm#850928
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
LU: When you get stuck with the fact that the Bible said all things were made by God alone and also it says that God made all things through the Son, it really is as simple as recognizing that Jehovah God is both the God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son) two persons.
Mike: So then…1 Cor 8:6 for us there is but one God, Jehovah, from whom all things came, and there is but one Lord, Jehovah, through whom all things came ? How come Jehovah God tells us that Jehovah God is his and our God?
My response:
The Father is the head (the God) of Christ and Christ is the head (the God) of the church, therefore the Father is God to both the Son and the church albeit indirectly to the church since He has placed Christ in the direct position to the church after the resurrection.
If you are referring to this: John 20:7
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'”
I believe that Jesus and Mary both recognized Jehovah as God before the resurrection but the role of “father” was new to Mary as the resurrection now made her a child of God too. That is how I understand this anyway.
These have all been good questions, Mike. I am avoiding the virus topic since I came back here to post partly to get away from the virus. Maybe you can enlighten us in the virus thread that has begun elsewhere in the forum.
Btw, don’t work so hard.
Blessings, LU
March 26, 2020 at 3:39 pm#850930
Jodi
Participant
Hi Lightenup,
I hope you have more to say concerning my post that begins with applying Luke 1 to Chronicles 17.
The child to be born IS David’s son and that child will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest. First you have David’s son THEN you have God saying that He will be a Father unto this son of David.
YOU: Jodi, regarding the Psalm 2:7 passage about “today I have begotten you,” I believe that refers to the begetting from the grave. He is the firstBORN from the dead.
ME: And who is “he”, he is the son of David who is promised to sit on his father David’s throne forever according to the flesh, and is God’s Son ACCORDING to the Spirit, where we read that when he was raised from the dead he received the promised Holy Spirit and the mercies of David.
Jesus receives promises of the LORD as he himself from the beginning was a promise from the LORD in God’s WORD, where a man would execute the LORD’S purpose, which was eternal life for humans, of which is what you are told Jesus is himself, a human.
All things created through and for- through (by reason of) Jesus we have eternal life from the LORD as Jesus received the fullness of God’s Spirit at the river Jordan and was SENT into the world to pay the penalty for our sins, and for Jesus, as he is given eternal life himself from the LORD first, becoming a firstborn of many brethren. He then as a firstborn of many receives the inheritance of a firstborn Son, being given dominion over all the works of the LORD, where he is the man ordained of God to judge the world in righteousness (Acts 17).

March 26, 2020 at 3:58 pm#850932
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Jodi,
You seem to only accept Jehovah as the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. That may be what keeps you from understanding the Son as both God and man. You spend many words trying to convince us that Jesus is a man. Who is debating that here? Many of us believe that Jesus existed in another manner before he was brought forth into Mary’s womb to become that man though.
Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
Jesus is the Lord of lords here.
March 26, 2020 at 4:07 pm#850933
Lightenup
Participant
Jodi,
1 Chronicles 17 is about Solomon as the son of David that builds God’s house. No doubt that the passage has implications to Christ since Christ ultimately ends up on David’s throne eternally but the passage is more directly about Solomon.
March 26, 2020 at 4:52 pm#850934
Jodi
Participant
Hi Mike,
Thanks for replying!
YOU: Just for starters, how do you explain/deny that God created all things through Jesus?
ME: I will make this as short as I can 😉
Well for starters on my end, I do not at all deny that God created all things through Jesus. I declare it and find it to be a most profound truth, as I know that God declared the End from the beginning, where God’s purpose for His creation would be executed through a man whom God calls (Isaiah 46), and it is Jesus who IS that man.
God says that He stretched forth the heavens alone and spreadeth abroad the earth by Himself, and as I just said, from the beginning God declared that a man would execute the purpose that God had declared for the creation that He Himself made. Hang on that for a bit.
The PURPOSE: God tells us in Isaiah 45 that He made earth not in vain, that He made it to be inhabited, and as we are told by Titus, God promised to us, before the world, was eternal life.
Eternal life comes to us through a man who shed his blood. Jesus is that man and he thus executed God’s purpose that God had declared from the beginning.
Eternal life does not come to us because God sent a spirit son down to earth. Eternal life comes to us because Jesus as the promised son of Jesse, had God’s Spirit descend upon him in full measure, an anointing, where he was SENT out to pay the penalty for our sins (Luke 4, which is God’s word of Isaiah 61 fulfilled in the flesh of the man Jesus).
The word through is popularly used to mean “by reason of”/”because of”
God created all things thus by reason of and for the man JESUS who would execute God’s purpose that God declared from the beginning.
JESUS is the NAME given to a human child who is said would receive the throne of his father David, and who would be great and would be called the Son of the Highest.
Look at the gospels, Jesus isn’t SENT, nor is he a witness to the people of his greatness, nor is he called the Son of God, until after the Spirit comes to rest upon him in full measure. In all the Gospels God declares Jesus who is the son of David to be His Son upon him receiving the Spirit not by measure, and THEN THIS Son we read is SENT where his fame begins to spread in Galilee as Jesus executes God’s will and purpose for His creation that He alone by Himself created.

March 26, 2020 at 6:02 pm#850938
Proclaimer
Participant
The original cell’s living substance became the living substance of both resulting cells. New substance was added equally to both to complete the unzipped original DNA strands. Both resulting cells have within them the living substance that existed within the original cell. The Nucleus of the original cell, divides and half stays in one cell and half goes to the other. No new nucleus is created, it is simply divided.
While we can make analogies like this about the Father and Son, we already know from scripture that the Father is above even the Son and much greater.
“I am the vine; you are the branches.
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes.
My point: The son is not cloned vine if you know what I mean.
March 26, 2020 at 6:13 pm#850939
Berean
Participant
Mike

Colossians 2: 9
In French we have translated
The word DIVINITY( DIVINITE)
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.
DIVINITY/HUMANITY MIXED
OR GOD VESTED BY OUR HUMANITY

EMMANUEL: GOD WITH US

The birds are starting to sing here in France…

Good night
God bless
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[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

EPHESIANS 3

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.

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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

EPHESIANS 3

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the DIVINITY bodily.

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