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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • September 26, 2021 at 6:30 pm#890751
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike:  Adam, the NT confirms Jesus as the Messiah because the OT says the Messiah will do A, B, and C… and Jesus did A, B, and C.

    Adam:  I reject the NT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that Jesus did A, B and C.

    Adam:  The OT proves God because it tells how God did A, B and C.

    Atheist:  I reject your OT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that God did A, B and C.

    Understand now?  If you cannot use the OT (which the atheist rejects) to prove the existence of God, then how do you expect me to use the NT (which you reject) to prove that Jesus is the Messiah?

    Hi Mike, please note I am not rejecting the NT completely but I give less credit to these writings when compared to the Hebrew Bible as the NT developed its ideas from its original source the Hebrew Bible which was nothing new if you look at number of such texts written during the Intertestamental period. One such example is the book of Enoch. I even don’t take the OT literally or the inspired word of God like other Fundamentalists. I am only investigating the texts of the NT and its greater claims on Jesus the so called Messiah with reference its (NT) primary source the Hebrew Bible.

     

    September 27, 2021 at 2:23 am#890766
    gadam123
    Participant

    The above was a quote from Jesus the Messiah of God – not an “interpretation” from Luke.  But how about you address Jesus’ point now?  We both agree that – even after all three men had died – Yahweh still claimed to be their God.  (He did not say he WAS the God of these men, but that He IS the God of these men, right?)

    So… is Yahweh a God of the dead?

    Hi Mike, we don’t know what Jesus really spoke as we don’t have any of his writings. We only have what others talked about him and put words in his mouth most of the time. This is the reason why I would like to specify the words of the writers.

    It’s another speculation of the NT writers and Christianity quoting Ex 3:6 for showing that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living at the time of Exodus. Please read the verses Exodus 3:

    6 He said further, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

    15 God also said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.

    16 Go and assemble the elders of Israel, and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has appeared to me, saying: I have given heed to you and to what has been done to you in Egypt.

    The above clearly infer that Yahweh was talking as the God of the ancestors of Israel, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The writer of the Luke simply misinterpret those texts to suit his idea of dead Ancestors were living at the time of Exodus or he wanted to prove that these dead ancestors were living at the time of Jesus in heaven.

    I don’t know what this writer wanted to prove. Do you think he wanted to prove the immortality of the soul?

    September 27, 2021 at 9:55 am#890778
    carmel
    Participant

    Carmel,

    It was Jesus body that was resurrected on resurrection day,

    His spirit was in the hands of the Father at the time of the last breath on the cross.

    Lu, 100% RIGHT!

    But it seems to me that I wasn’t clear enough in my post, as I explained WHAT HAPPENED TO JESUS’SPIRIT, precisely immediately on Jesus’ death! John13:31-32. Here is again what I posted in relation to Jesus’ spirit.

    Jesus, “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, died and gave Himself as a ransom

    IN EXCHANGE FOR THE HUMAN RACE. To be clear, in order for Jesus to give His dead body to the human race, well asserted in the last supper by His own words:

    ….THIS IS MY BODY WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU…..

    Precisely on His resurrection. Jesus, the Son of Man,  could only do so

    BY HIS OWN SPIRIT, SIMPLY AS ONLY HIS SPIRIT  AS “THE WORD” WAS ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES and sealed in the entire process of the world, ALL IN HIM, and ALL BY HIM. SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, Rev.13:8 Well HINTED OUT by Jesus’own words on the cross,

    …..into thy hands I commend MY SPIRIT. And saying this, he gave up THE GHOST.

    The Holy Ghost in Jesus’soul.

    Thus as you well said Jesus left His spirit, in the hands of the Father,

    THE VERY SPIRIT JESUS HIMSELF EMPTIED HIMSELF OF AND POURED IT ALL OVER CREATION AS ETERNAL LIFE, AND ALSO IN ORDER TO BE AS WEAK AND IN ALL THINGS LIKE HUMANS.

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, Rev.13:8 precisely ETERNAL LIFE, GOD ALL-KNOWING, engrafted in all souls/spirits from the very beginning, in Lucifer,

    The original spirit of the human race in flesh and blood.

    You: I believe that “today I have begotten you” refers to

    the Son according to the flesh, from the dead.

    The above is precise, but you have to be aware of

    BY WHICH PROCESS!

    NOW, IN VIEW OF YOUR BELIEF, I ALSO SAID: Jesus declared that

    flesh counts for nothing it is THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE.

    It is HIS SPIRIT that gave life to His own dead body,

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB……Rev 13:8

    WHICH WAS IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER, PREDESTINED BY GOD THE FATHER.Well clear in

    John10:18,No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Thus this spirit originally slain like a lamb…… was PRECISELY  allocated to the human race from the beginning as ETERNAL LIFE, DURING THE PROCESS OF CREATION OF WHICH  SPIRIT, DIVINE,  JESUS EMPTIED HIMSELF OF IN ORDER TO BECOME  PRECISELY

    THE  SON OF MAN! 

    JESUS’DEAD BODY, THE BODY WHICH WAS GIVEN TO THE HUMAN RACE ON HIS RESURRECTION,  BUT ONLY BACK TO LIFE 

    BY JESUS’ OWN SPIRIT,

    IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER! THE FACT THAT HE WAS 

    ORIGINALLY SLAIN……Rev.13:8 BUT STRENGTHENED BY THE FATHER!

    THUS JESUS WAS NOT BEGOTTEN ON HIS RESURRECTION, HE ONLY BECAME ALIVE, AND ALIVE NOT IN HIMSELF, SINCE HE BECAME ALIVE AND GLORIFIED IMMEDIATELY ON THE CROSS,

    AS JESUS CHRIST

    BUT ALIVE EMBODIED WITH THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE 1Peter 1:3

    NOT YET BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!

    NOT YET PERFECT SINCE ONLY GOD IS PERFECT!

    YOU: Clearly though, the Father was Jesus’ father before the resurrection day.

    ME: The above Lu, as a reference to Jesus’dead body, IS NOT QUITE PRECISE!

    GOD THE FATHER IS NOT OF THE DEAD, BUT OF THE LIVING!

    WHILE JESUS WAS DEAD, HE WAS NOT THE SON OF GOD, BUT

    JUST THE SON OF MAN! “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    You: Thus He is called the Firstborn from the dead.

    I’m afraid this term “FROM THE DEAD” MUST BE CLARIFIED, SIMPLY AS IT IS A REFERENCE TO

    ALL DEAD SOULS! 

    With Satan’s spirit, both in hell and on earth, confirmed by Jesus own words:

    LET THE DEAD BURY THE DEAD!

    THUS JESUS’ SPIRIT WAS PRECISELY SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8 IN ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS!

    BUT ONCE JESUS THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’BODY GLORIFIED ON HIS DEATH AND BECAME

    GODMAN, ONE SUBSTANCE WITH THE HOLY GHOST THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, ACTS 20:28

    HIS SPIRIT, ORIGINALLY SLAIN …..Rev. 13;8 ATTENTION PLEASE:

    IN ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, WAS NOT SLAIN ANYMORE,

    BUT ALIVE AND ACTIVE,

    THUS ON THE THIRD DAY HIS SPIRIT ALIVE, IN THE HANDS OF THE FATHER INTEGRATED WITH “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE DEAD BODY OF JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN,

    BUT NOT YET PERFECT, NOT YET BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER!

    That was the day that the Son received the promise made to David, that David’s son would not undergo decay, and would be installed as King on the eternal throne at the right hand of the Father.

    PRECISELY BUT NOT ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    ON HIS RESURRECTION JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN WAS THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS IN HIM.

    THE FACT THAT HE WAS NOT YET PERFECT!

    NOT YET BEGOTTEN! WELL CLEAR IN

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,

    for I am not yet ascended to (THE GLORY OF) my Father…

    NOW THE ABOVE IS PRECISELY THE REFERENCE THAT JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN, WAS NOT YET BEGOTTEN!

    NOW JESUS THE SON OF MAN,  THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, John 3:3 and

    JESUS CHRIST GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS ON JESUS’ DEATH

    GODMAN

    INTEGRATED THAT SAME EVENING OF HIS RESURRECTION PRECISELY AT 6.00, THE PRECISE MOMENT WHEN JESUS, THE SON OF MAN WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER IN

    JESUS CHRIST! 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH!

    WELL ASSERTED ALSO IN

    John20:17 …..But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, JESUS ONLY ONCE HIMSELF DECLARED THAT HE IS OUR AUTHENTIC BROTHER, PRECISELY ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    THEN HE ALSO ASSERTED THAT EVENTUALLY HE, AS THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, THE SECOND ADAM, A SPIRIT “THE WORD” FROM THE HEART OF THE EARTH, FROM LL DEAD SOULS, WOULD GLORIFY AND BECOME ONE SUBSTANCE WITH JESUS CHRIST, 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN JESUS CHRIST! Well hinted out by Jesus hereunder 

    I ascend to (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father,

    JESUS CONFIRMS THAT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’DEAD BODY, GLORIFIES BOTH AS

    THE FATHER OF ALL SPIRITS, AND THE FATHER OF ALL FLESH!

    to my God and your God.

    JESUS CONFIRMS THAT THE SON OF MAN, JESUS ‘DEAD BODY, GLORIFIES BOTH

    AS GOD OF ALL SPIRITS, AND GOD OF ALL FLESH!

    THE SON OF GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST and 

    THE SON OF MAN “THE WORD” ARE NOT TWO ANY MORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    OFFICIALLY THE HIGHEST EVER

    GODMAN

    FOR THE PLEASURE OF GOD THE FATHER!

    ORIGINALLY THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD  IN ONE GLORY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    September 27, 2021 at 10:39 am#890780
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel, these are excerpts from the prayer of the Apostles in Acts 4…

    When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…

    ME: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE ALL BY HIMSELF IN RELATION TO HUMAN REASONING!

    EXCEPT    IN/BY/FOR JESUS!

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    THE KINGDOM OF GOD!

    Mike if you commit a sin, who in actual fact did commit the sin,

    THE SOUL?   GOD’S 

    THE FLESH BODY?  JESUS’ OR

    BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    September 27, 2021 at 10:58 am#890781
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Not at all.  I’m telling you that if the dispute is between Architect John and Lawyer Jim, the mediator cannot be EITHER Architect John OR Lawyer Jim.  A mediator cannot be one of the parties he mediates between.

    In the case we’re discussing, one of the parties is “God”.  Therefore Jesus, as mediator cannot be “God”.

    WASN’T I CLEAR ENOUGH?

    JESUS IS NOT GOD ONLY, 

    JESUS IS NOT MAN ONLY

    BUT BOTH

    GOD AND MAN

    THE PERFECT MEDIATOR!

    BETWEEN GOD AND MAN

    GODMAN!

    SCRIPTURE:

    Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    IN RELATION TO HUMANS

    but God is one.

    GOD HIMSELF IN JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    October 10, 2021 at 8:30 am#891156
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: No Jesus IS the creator approved of God, because HE WAS GOD IN THE BIGINNING .

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Rev 4:9-11…  And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

    “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be.”

    Berean, would you agree that “the One seated on the throne” is the one who created all things?  Who is “the One seated on the throne”?


    @Lightenup

    October 10, 2021 at 8:40 am#891157
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Do you think Adam and Eve were the literal human beings ever existed on this planet?

    Absolutely.  I believe that Adam and Eve were literally the first human beings to ever exist on this plane (not “planet”), and that their existence here began when the earth was only 6 literal days old.

    October 10, 2021 at 8:50 am#891158
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: Hi Mike, the verses you quoted from Job and  Eccl talk about the death of a man. Here the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. Where is the so called immortal soul here in these verse?

    Pay attention.  These verses are to show you that although God gave something to someone (the spirit in the case of men), He is not powerless to take it away afterwards (the spirit returns to Him who gave it).

    So in the case of Ps 82, where immortal creatures will die like mortal men do, God clearly has the power to destroy those who wouldn’t have died naturally – ie:  the immortal can be destroyed.

    Adam:  Ps 82 , 89, Deut 32:8-9 and few other texts in the Hebrew Bible reflect the Polytheistic environment of the Hebrew religion where the God Yahweh shown as subordinate to the most high like El Elyon and he sits in the council of so called gods.

    That’s absolute nonsense.  Yahweh is the Most High God.  There are indeed many gods, but Yahweh is the Most High Creator of all other gods.

    Adam:  So the assumption of concept of immortality to these so called gods as quoted in your post is beyond the Biblical concept of the immortality and eternal life. The immortality of the soul is another developed idea based on the Platonic duality which is visible in some of the texts of the NT.

    Sounds to me like you’re trying to parrot some things that you read somewhere.  I’m having a hard time following what you’re trying to say here.

    October 10, 2021 at 8:52 am#891159
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Without problem, because even if the Son took part in the creation of all things, the honor and the glory GO TO THE FATHER WHO BEGOTTEN THE SON AND THUS GIVEN HIM TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF, AS SAID JESUS IN JOHN 5:26
    For as the Father hath LIFE IN HIMSELF; so hath he given to the Son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF; 

    IN THIS LIFE IS OMNIPOTENCE, OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, ETERNITY …
    THANKS GOD FOR YOUR LOVE.

    WE HAVE A LEGAL AND POWERFULL SAVIOR IN JESUS ,THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,WHO WAS MADE FLESH FOR OUR  SINS.

    God bless

    October 10, 2021 at 8:53 am#891160
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: 1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

     

    Adam:  If you want the  debate on Jesus’ Messiahship you can argue on the appropriate thread. I can transfer these arguments of yours to that thread…..

    Just pick one of the 3 options.  It’s clear that you are afraid of the question.  So if it gets you to answer it, feel free to transfer it to whatever thread you deem appropriate and let me know where to find it.

    October 10, 2021 at 9:01 am#891161
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Mike, please note I am not rejecting the NT completely but I give less credit to these writings when compared to the Hebrew Bible as the NT developed its ideas from its original source the Hebrew Bible…

    Can you possibly prove that the teachings in the NT (which clearly ALIGN WITH the OT) were “developed from” the OT?  Of course not.  You are making a claim that you couldn’t possibly back up.

    In other words, could you actually prove that the NT isn’t the true and accurate written testimonies of those who walked with Jesus on earth?  No.

    Can you prove that Jesus isn’t exactly who he claimed to be (according to those true and accurate testimonies)?  No.

    The fact that you personally don’t hold the NT in as high regard as the OT means absolutely nothing to anybody here.  Would it matter to you if I didn’t give Jeremiah as much credit as I do the other OT books?  Of course not.  Why would it?

    October 10, 2021 at 9:11 am#891162
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: 6 He said further, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God…

    The writer of the Luke simply misinterpret those texts to suit his idea of dead Ancestors were living at the time of Exodus…

    You’re trying to avoid the question.  Is it true that Yahweh said He IS (not was) the God of these people?  Yes.

    IS (not was) Yahweh the God of the dead?  Yes or No?

    In your understanding, it’s clear that Yahweh WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, right?  He’s not their God anymore, since they have ceased to exist, right?

    So the point is why Yahweh Himself would tell Moses that He IS (not WAS) the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  Why do you think Yahweh would do that?

    October 10, 2021 at 9:21 am#891163
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…

     

    Carmel: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    What?  Are you saying that unless I know exactly how God created me, I’m not a creation of God?  Stop trying to divert with silliness.  The verse is simple.  The Apostles prayed to someone who they said created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  The question is also simple:  Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus?  Just answer the question.

    Carmel:  THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE ALL BY HIMSELF IN RELATION TO HUMAN REASONING!

    EXCEPT    IN/BY/FOR JESUS!

    More nonsense.  As if God was somehow UNABLE to create things all by Himself.   But let’s expose your lunacy…

    Carmel, when God created Adam on the 6th day, what “human” insights could Jesus have given God, seeing that Jesus hadn’t ever been a human at that time?

    October 10, 2021 at 9:31 am#891164
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: WASN’T I CLEAR ENOUGH?

    JESUS IS NOT GOD ONLY, 

    JESUS IS NOT MAN ONLY

    BUT BOTH

    GOD AND MAN

    Oh I understand what you’re saying.  It’s just that what you’re saying is unscriptural nonsense.  But let me play the game once more to see if you can finally understand why you’re wrong…

    A case has come up in the Seventh District Court of Heaven.  God is suing Satan for blasphemy and crimes against humanity.

    Presiding over the case is…. GOD!

    Do you see how stupid your argument is now?  The Judge/Mediator of a case can’t BE one of the two parties who are going against each other.  If a judge gets accused of sexual harassment, he can’t very well be the mediator of the case, mediating between the woman and himself!   God cannot be the mediator BETWEEN God and Satan – because God is one of the two parties.  The mediator BETWEEN those two parties has to be someone who is neither God nor Satan.

    (And no, it can’t be someone who is BOTH God AND Satan. 🙄  That would be equally ridiculous because it would amount to one person being the mediator BETWEEN themselves.  That one person would be both parties AND the one who mediates between the two parties.  Absolute absurdity!)

    October 10, 2021 at 9:44 am#891165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Without problem, because even if the Son took part in the creation of all things, the honor and the glory GO TO THE FATHER…

    So your argument is that Jesus is the true Creator of heaven, earth, the sea, and everything in them… but as far as anyone’s concerned, God is the one who created all things – not Jesus?

    Berean, can’t you see the hoops you’re trying to jump through here?  Maybe it’s time you give it up.  Scripture clearly says – in MANY places, both OT and NT – that we have one Creator, and that Creator is God, not Jesus.

    We’re told that God created all things through Jesus – but we aren’t told exactly what that means. We are NEVER told in ANY scripture that Jesus is our Creator.  Only that God created through him.

    Listen, the creatures in Revelation know that God created all things.  Jesus’ own Apostles in Acts 4 know that God created all things.  Jesus himself in Mark 13:19 knows that God created the world, right?

    Maybe it’s time that you and LU and Carmel finally come to grips with what Jesus, his Apostles, his God, and even the 4 creatures who are forever in the presence of God’s throne in heaven all already know:  God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them.

    Jesus is one of the EVERYTHING in them that God created.

    October 10, 2021 at 10:34 am#891168
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. You look like you are suffering from confusion brought on by the Trinity Doctrine.

    The Bible teaches that there is one God. God created everything. And He created all things through the Word / Jesus Christ / Son of God.

    And while we may not understand how that works exactly, it doesn’t give us the right to input our own ideas and make Jesus the creator. He is the head for sure, but not the creator. Scripture is clear. All things were created through him and for him.

    As for who we pray to, well that is easy. We pray to God just as Jesus did. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

    The fruit of the Trinity Doctrine is confusion, division, and thousands of denominations. The fruit is not good. People have also been murdered because they spoke the truth when they said the Trinity Doctrine was false. Murder is a gross sin. Men were burned at the stake etc. Today, many still wrestle with this. The answer is simple though. Ignore the BS that comes from man and read and believe what the scriptures say. Then you will see the true doctrine of Christ.

    Don’t let the fear of man hinder your journey toward truth.

    October 11, 2021 at 2:12 am#891192
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike:  When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,

    “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them…
     ER

    Carmel: Mike unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, the above is of no use!

    What?  Are you saying that unless I know exactly how God created me,

    I’m not a creation of God? 

    ME: Mike,

    ON EARTH,

    UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PROVE AND SPECIFY YOUR PROCESS OF BEING A HUMAN BEING BORN OF A HUMAN BEING SPECIFICALLY BY YOUR OWN FATHER,

    IT IS OF NO USE TO SAY WHO YOUR FATHER IS!

    DESPITE YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING! A MAN!

    I AM AN ARTIST HONESTLY SPEAKING, BUT UNLESS, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    I HAVE

    THE BRUSH, OR ANYTHING SIMILAR,

    THE PAINT, OR ANYTHING SIMILAR, AND

    THE CANVAS OR ANYTHING SIMILAR,

    THE PAINTING COULD IN NO WAY BE DONE NO MATTER HOW GOOD  AN ARTIST I AM!

    THE SAME WITH GOD, A MYSTERIOUS UNKNOWN ENTITY!

    UNLESS GOD HAD

    POWER

    LOVE, 

    and 

    WISDOM 

    CREATION COULD IN NO WAY BE DONE! NOW: 

    GOD COMPRISES

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER

    THE LOVE OF THE HOLY GHOST and

    THE WISDOM OF THE SON

    THE ABOVE ARE THE THREE MOST FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD and WITHOUT THESE ATTRIBUTES FULLY FUNCTIONAL IN FULL HARMONY

    CREATION WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

    Mike, Stop trying to divert with silliness.  The verse is simple. 

    unless you are in the position to specify the process of creation, MYSTERIOUS, your verse hereunder is of no use!

    ESPECIALLY SINCE NO ONE KNOWS WHO GOD IS and 

    WHAT GOD IS 

    YOU:The Apostles prayed to someone who they said created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  The question is also simple: 

    Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus?  Just answer the question.

    THAT SOMEONE, the most mysterious Mike,

    WITHIN HIMSELF POSSESSED

    THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST!

    A TRIUNE GOD

    Whether you believe it or not it’s your pigeon, not mine!

    1Corinthians 1:23For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:

     24BUT UNTO THEM THAT ARE CALLED, both Jews and Greeks,

    Christ THE POWER (in the Holy Ghost) of God, and

    THE WISDOM (the Son, in “THE WORD”) of God.

    Proverbs 8:22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning.

    23I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived.(IN THE HOLY GHOST) neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills, I was brought forth: (AS AND WITHIN AN ENDLESS LUMINOUS SPIRITS OF LIGHT, THE BIG BANG)

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him forming all things:

    and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

    31Playing in the world: and my delights were to be

    with the children of men.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    October 11, 2021 at 3:52 am#891194
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Who were they praying to?  Jesus?  Or someone other than Jesus? 

    Carmel:  A TRIUNE GOD
    Whether you believe it or not it’s your pigeon, not mine!

    Acts 4:24… “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.”

    It’s clear they are praying to someone who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?  They identify that someone as “YOU”.  You think that someone is a Triune God comprised of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right?  But watch…

    Acts 4:25… You said through the Holy Spirit, by the mouth of our father David your servant: Why do the Gentiles rage and the peoples plot futile things?

    Here the “YOU” is distinguished as someone other than the Holy Spirit.  Notice that the Holy Spirit is not who/what spoke, but a vessel/means through which the person identified as “YOU” spoke.  Likewise, the servant David is not who spoke, but the vessel/means through which the words were spoken.

    Understand?  If we’re told that God spoke through Moses, then it’s clear that Moses is someone other than God.  If we’re told that God spoke through a vision, then it’s clear that the vision is something other than God.  If we’re told that God spoke through the servant David, then it’s clear that David is someone other than God.  And if we’re told that God spoke through the Holy Spirit, then it’s clear that the Holy Spirit is something other than God.

    And if you want to say that the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead who spoke through it, then I can claim that Moses, the vision, and David are members of the Godhead who spoke through them.

    Acts 4:30… stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.

    This part is even easier to understand, because not only does “YOU” do signs through someone (meaning that someone can’t BE the “YOU” who did the signs through him), but that someone is also clearly identified as the holy servant OF the one identified as “YOU”.

    So in a nutshell, if the “YOU” who created all things speaks through the Holy Spirit or David, then it’s clear that the Holy Spirit and David are not the “YOU” who spoke through them.  If the “YOU” who created all things does signs and wonders through Jesus, then it’s clear that Jesus is not the “YOU” who did those signs and wonders through him.  And if Jesus is clearly identified as the holy servant OF the “YOU” who created all things, then it’s clear that Jesus is not the “YOU” who created all things.

    Jesus is not the “YOU” who created all things, Carmel, but the holy servant OF the “YOU” who created all things.

     

     

    October 11, 2021 at 4:08 am#891195
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel, now let’s do the same with Rev 4 and 5…

    Rev 4:2…  At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven, with someone seated on it.

    Notice there is only one person on that throne – not three.

    Rev 4:9-11…  And whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One seated on the throne who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

    “Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for You created all things; by Your will they exist and came to be.”

    Just like with Acts 4, the 24 elders identify only ONE person as the “YOU” who created all things, right?  So is Jesus the “YOU” – or even a member in a triune “YOU-head”?

    Rev 5:1-7… Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 

    Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain… And He came and took the scroll from the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

    You can see that Jesus is not the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things.  Jesus is instead the one who takes the scroll from the right hand of the “YOU” who sits on the throne and who created all things.

    Carmel, scriptures clearly teach us that Jesus is someone other than the God who created all things.  Whether you believe those scriptures or not is your pigeon, not mine.

    October 11, 2021 at 5:25 am#891199
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……..both your last two posts were “spot on” brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………….gene

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