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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • September 21, 2021 at 7:06 pm#890606
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    YOU: Jesus is both the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn from the dead.

    Jesus is both the firstborn of all creation,

    ME: DEFINITELY,  IN

    LUCIFER, THE BEGINNING, THE LIGHT BRINGER, THE MORNING STAR.(“THE WORD” JESUS THE SON OF MAN TO BE HIDDEN IN LUCIFER, THE TRUE LIGHT; THE FIRST SON OF GOD, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE, JESUS AND LUCIFER, ONE SPIRIT AND ONE PHYSICAL, ONE VISIBLE AND ONE INVISIBLE WITH

    ONE DIVINE/CREATURE HEART) 

    MANIFESTED FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON EARTH AND IN THE ENTIRE COSMOS BY

    JESUS ON MOUNT TABOR! THE EMBODIMENT OF LUCIFER, THE FIRST CARRIER, AND EMBODIMENT OF GOD, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN DURING THE PROBATION PERIOD IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR FREE WILL. AND LOYALTY TO GOD.

    YOU: and the firstborn from the dead.

    ME, DEFINITELY, JESUS, EMBODIED IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE,

    ALL IN HIM/ALL BY HIM/ ALL FOR HIM, THE SECOND ADAM FROM THE CORE OF THE EARTH, TO BE CLEAR

    THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE  ex Satan/Lucifer’s substance, NOT PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

    1Peter 2:10 Who in time past were not a people:

    but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy;

    but now have obtained mercy.

    ALL AUTHENTIC BROTHERS TO JESUS, attention PLEASE:

    NOT YET JESUS CHRIST! BUT

    THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, John3:3.

    John20:17 Jesus saith to her:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to (IN THE GLORIFIED STATE OF) my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    I am not going to repeat what I posted in the last one above, so please carry on reading the last part of my post, IF YOU PLEASE, and you will be aware WHO JESUS WAS ON HIS RESURRECTION AND WHO JESUS BECAME ON THE SAME EVENING, PRECISELY AFTER 6, JEWISH TIME;

    MORNING AND EVENING ONE DAY!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ,

     

    September 24, 2021 at 5:00 pm#890681
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    It was Jesus body that was resurrected on resurrection day, His spirit was in the hands of the Father at the time of the last breath on the cross. I believe that “today I have begotten you” refers to the Son according to the flesh, from the dead. Thus He is called the Firstborn from the dead. That was the day that the Son received the promise made to David, that David’s son would not undergo decay, and would be installed as King on the eternal throne at the right hand of the Father.

    Cheers! LU

    September 26, 2021 at 5:00 am#890716
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Thus Jesus is both created and not created!

    the fact that all is created by him, in him, and for him!

    Carmel, these are excerpts from the prayer of the Apostles in Acts 4…

    When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them… Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed… stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.

    Carmel, please tell me who the underlined word “You” refers to.

     

    September 26, 2021 at 5:08 am#890717
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  THERE IS A DISPUTE BETWEEN A LAWYER AND AN ARCHITECT !  DO YOU MEAN THAT A MEDIATOR CANNOT BE  ANOTHER  LAWYER OR ANOTHER ARCHITECT?

    Not at all.  I’m telling you that if the dispute is between Architect John and Lawyer Jim, the mediator cannot be EITHER Architect John OR Lawyer Jim.  A mediator cannot be one of the parties he mediates between.

    In the case we’re discussing, one of the parties is “God”.  Therefore Jesus, as mediator cannot be “God”.

     

    September 26, 2021 at 6:01 am#890718
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: I was arguing that God is not a man (or can not become a man). An immortal being can not become mortal if so there is no meaning of immortality.

    There are different meanings of “immortal”.  It can mean “from AND to eternity” – as is the case with God.  It can also mean “to eternity” – as is the case with God’s spirit sons who are not FROM eternity, but cannot die from accidental or natural causes.

    The first meaning applies ONLY to God, and no one else.  The second case applies to Jesus, Satan, Gabriel, Dagon, Michael, Azazel, etc.  The second case would have also applied to Adam and Eve if they had eaten from the tree of life, instead of from the tree of knowledge.  Remember that natural death wasn’t automatically included when God created Adam and Eve.  In fact He told them that they would die IF they ate from the tree of knowledge, right?  Until that act, their mortality wasn’t decided.  Who knows… if they had lived for 1000 years on earth without ever breaking God’s command, perhaps He would have granted them to eat from the tree of life and gain immortality.  After all, that tree was there in the garden for a reason, right?

    And if that had happened, Adam and Eve would be “immortal” – but only in the second sense, as they were not “FROM eternity”, but would be, from that point on, “TO eternity”.

    Paul’s use of immortal in 1 Timothy is clearly the former meaning:  “Both from AND to eternity”.  This is why he attributes this immortality only to God.

    So now the question of whether someone who is granted immorality can be destroyed by the one who granted it.  Do you really think that after God grants immortality to someone, He is POWERLESS to take it back?

    Job 1:21… Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

    Eccl 12:7… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    And what’s more, we have the words of God Himself…

    Psalm 82:6-7…  I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But like mortals you will die…

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

     

    Adam:  If Jesus was literally begotten from God and is another immortal being, how can he leave his immortality and become like a man and die like a mortal?

    So these are my arguments.

    Not only does Ps 82 explain it clearly, but so does this passage…

    Phil 2:5-8…  Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, existing in the form of a god, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.  And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross.

    So your arguments are answered – even with your invalid protest against the Book of Enoch. (Adam, you do know that flawed MEN decided what is in the cannon and what is not, right? 🙄)

     

    September 26, 2021 at 6:20 am#890720
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Please prove Jesus as Jewish Messiah with the requirements as specified in Hebrew Bible and there ends the matter.

    Mike:  Please first prove that God actually exists via the Hebrew Bible. 

    Adam: It’s funny too as you are avoiding my question on Jesus’ Messiahship. I need not prove the existence of God based on Hebrew Bible as it’s also the part of the Christian Bible.

    Not funny, but actually sad that you didn’t understand my point.  Let me lay it out for you…

    Mike:  Adam, the NT confirms Jesus as the Messiah because the OT says the Messiah will do A, B, and C… and Jesus did A, B, and C.

    Adam:  I reject the NT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that Jesus did A, B and C.

     

    Adam:  The OT proves God because it tells how God did A, B and C.

    Atheist:  I reject your OT completely, and therefore I reject your claim that it confirms that God did A, B and C.

    Understand now?  If you cannot use the OT (which the atheist rejects) to prove the existence of God, then how do you expect me to use the NT (which you reject) to prove that Jesus is the Messiah?

    In other words, your request for me to use something that you reject to prove something to you is illogical.  And that’s why I’m taking another route with you to get to the bottom of WHY you reject the NT.  It seems to be working so far, despite your repeated attempts to divert from the questions. 😉

    September 26, 2021 at 6:23 am#890721
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So that being said, back to that other route I’m trying…

    There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…

    1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

    September 26, 2021 at 6:54 am#890723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Proclaimer, do you mean Jesus did not really die like any mortal?

    Jesus died like any other mortal.  If he did not die and be raised as a true mortal man, then what hope have we to die and be raised as true mortal men?

    But to die as a mortal man does not mean to cease to exist entirely.

    Luke 20:37-38… Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.

    Note that Jesus uses the example of Moses (from the OT) to prove his point, Adam.  So yes, even according to the OT, this point is accurate.

    Matthew 10:28…  Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

    So even after we die as mortal men, our soul (or very essence of who we are) lives on.  And it will continue to live on (making us immortal) until God acts one way or the other.  On the day of judgment, God (or more accurately, the Judge that God appointed, namely Jesus) will pass judgement upon our souls.  Some will be judge favorably and remain immortal with new bodies given to them.  Some will be judged disfavorably and their souls (which were immortal up until that point) will be destroyed in Gehenna.

    So yes, things that cannot die naturally or by accident are immortal.  But those things can be destroyed by Him who made them in the first place.

    I love it when one post allows me to kill two or three birds with one stone. 😊

     

    September 26, 2021 at 7:14 am#890724
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Was Jesus begotten from the grave? If so, by whom?

    Yes, Jesus was raised from the dead by his and our God, YHWH.

    Kathi, did God send His only-begotten Son into the world?  Did God offer up His only-begotten Son as a sacrifice?

    The answers to my questions will render your argument moot before you even make it.  Acts 13:33 can’t possibly mean that Jesus became God’s only-begotten Son when he was raised from the dead – or else God wouldn’t have been able to send His only-begotten into the world or offer His only-begotten up as a sacrifice.  Understand?  Kangaroo Jack made the same mistake here years ago.

    And since that is the case, the most natural meaning of Psalm 2:7 (if we both eliminate any preconceived notions that we might have) is that the words were said by God to His firstborn Son shortly after the moment that God brought that Son into existence.  Would you agree?

    September 26, 2021 at 7:18 am#890725
    gadam123
    Participant

    Jesus died like any other mortal.  If he did not die and be raised as a true mortal man, then what hope have we to die and be raised as true mortal men?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my query to Proclaimer on mortal death. Yes that was the point I was raising on Jesus’ nature if he was dead like a mortal and I was questioning on the definition of the immortality.

    But to die as a mortal man does not mean to cease to exist entirely.

    Luke 20:37-38… Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.

    Note that Jesus uses the example of Moses (from the OT) to prove his point, Adam.  So yes, even according to the OT, this point is accurate.

    The above interpretation was of the writer of Luke Gospel and not of Moses. The Hebrew Bible was simply quoting the statement of God Yahweh “I am (Yahweh) God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” It doesn’t mean Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not really dead.

    So even after we die as mortal men, our soul (or very essence of who we are) lives on.  And it will continue to live on (making us immortal) until God acts one way or the other.  On the day of judgment, God (or more accurately, the Judge that God appointed, namely Jesus) will pass judgement upon our souls.  Some will be judge favorably and remain immortal with new bodies given to them.  Some will be judged disfavorably and their souls (which were immortal up until that point) will be destroyed in Gehenna.

    So yes, things that cannot die naturally or by accident are immortal.  But those things can be destroyed by Him who made them in the first place.

    So you think our human souls are immortal? We find the similar beliefs in our Hinduism and Buddhism where the soul goes through a process of reincarnation after the death of a person and there is no death to the soul.

    If this so called immortal soul can be killed by God as stated by you, is it really called an immortality?

     

    September 26, 2021 at 7:22 am#890726
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: If Jesus was a creature before HIS incarnation he could not become the savior of the world…

    Why not?

    Berean:  BUT BECAUSE Jesus covered our humanity on his divinity, HE WAS  QUALIFIED TO BECOME THE SAVIOR IF THE WORLD.

    I don’t deny that Jesus was, and is, divine.  He is the second most powerful god in existence after all.  But where can I read that one of the qualifications for being a savior of man is divinity?

    Berean:  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him(form of God) the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    That’s a bad translation.  Phil 2 teaches that although Jesus was existing as a god, the idea that he was therefore equal to his own God was nonsense to him.  The lesson is that Jesus wasn’t afraid to leave his cushy position at the right hand of his and our God – but willingly left his lofty existence – knowing he would suffer greatly – for the sake of humanity and because it was the will of his God.

    Remember that he consistently taught that he came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but to do the will of his God who sent him, right?

    September 26, 2021 at 8:27 am#890728
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    In the beginning, if Jesus was not God (having the same attributes as his Father) and in harmony with Him, he would have had no right to be the savior of the world, because only the Creator can save his creatures.
    The greatest of (created) angels could not have been a candidate for this mission.

    September 26, 2021 at 8:30 am#890729
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  The above interpretation was of the writer of Luke Gospel and not of Moses. The Hebrew Bible was simply quoting the statement of God Yahweh “I am (Yahweh) God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” It doesn’t mean Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not really dead.

    The above was a quote from Jesus the Messiah of God – not an “interpretation” from Luke.  But how about you address Jesus’ point now?  We both agree that – even after all three men had died – Yahweh still claimed to be their God.  (He did not say he WAS the God of these men, but that He IS the God of these men, right?)

    So… is Yahweh a God of the dead?

    September 26, 2021 at 9:00 am#890731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  So you think our human souls are immortal?

    Well, what’s the definition of “immortal”?  A living thing is immortal if it will not cease to exist by natural or accidental causes.  You have already said that the OT speaks about living again after death, right?  And we learn in the OT that after Samuel died, he still existed – but as a sleeping person in another realm.  Saul had the witch of Endor awaken him from his sleep, remember?  So Samuel had died, but the essence of Samuel still existed, right?

    Now, since Samuel no longer consists of flesh that decays, is there any valid reason to think that his essence will eventually grow old and die so that he completely ceases to exist?  I can’t think of any.  And if there is no reason to assume that Samuel’s soul would suffer aging and decay and death, then it stands to reason that the essence of Samuel will continue to sleep on forever until someone else acts to either wake him or destroy what is left of him.  Until that time, he is, for all intents and purposes, “immortal”.

    And according to the NT, people like Samuel will be awakened from their slumber to face judgement.  And at that time, Samuel will either continue to exist or be destroyed for good – depending on the judgment.

     

    Adam:  If this so called immortal soul can be killed by God as stated by you, is it really called an immortality?

    It’s immortal in that it will not die on its own.  Left alone, it would exist forever.  But God won’t leave it alone for eternity.  God will act, and the soul will be awakened, either to everlasting life or everlasting “second death” (Rev 2:11, 21:8, etc).

    September 26, 2021 at 9:05 am#890732
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  In the beginning, if Jesus was not God (having the same attributes as his Father) and in harmony with Him, he would have had no right to be the savior of the world, because only the Creator can save his creatures.
    The greatest of (created) angels could not have been a candidate for this mission.

    Yeah, I hear what you’re saying.  I heard it the first few times you said it too.  I’m asking you to SHOW me this teaching in the scriptures.  You can keep claiming it with bigger and bolder type until pigs fly, but that doesn’t do anyone any good because you’re not supporting your claim with scripture.

    Btw, Jesus IS the greatest of created angels – according to scripture.

    September 26, 2021 at 9:17 am#890734
    Berean
    Participant

    Yeah, I hear what you’re saying.  I heard it the first few times you said it too.  I’m asking you to SHOW me this teaching in the scriptures.  You can keep claiming it with bigger and bolder type until pigs fly, but that doesn’t do anyone any good because you’re not supporting your claim with scripture.

    Btw, Jesus IS a created angel – according to scripture. 

    Me

    No Jesus IS the creator approved of God, because HE WAS GOD IN THE BIGINNING .

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.

     

     

     

    September 26, 2021 at 3:45 pm#890745
    gadam123
    Participant

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

    Hi Mike I appreciate your lengthy reply to my questions on immortality. Yes you have clearly brought out the logics on the immortality from the Bible. I am also engaged in understanding the death and afterlife these days. But I find there is little on these things in the Hebrew Bible and it was developed during the intertestamental period. And Christianity adapted these developed ideas on the resurrection and afterlife. This is the reason why I don’t give much credit to the NT when compared to Hebrew Bible.

    I am in hurry and will reply your posts in details later.

    Thank you.

    September 26, 2021 at 4:55 pm#890746
    gadam123
    Participant

    And if that had happened, Adam and Eve would be “immortal” – but only in the second sense, as they were not “FROM eternity”, but would be, from that point on, “TO eternity”

    Do you think Adam and Eve were the literal human beings ever existed on this planet? The stories of the creation in the Bible were framed similar to the ancient epics like Epic of Gilgamesh in the ANE. I do think man was created as a mortal being but was given opportunity get lengthy life by eating the fruit of Tree of Life which was available to them along with the so called Tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of Garden of Eden. I always wonder why Adam and Eve were not aware of this so called Tree of Life which was very well allowed by God to cherish its fruits.  The resurrection and eternal life were never promised in the whole of Torah for get about the creation stories in Genesis. These concepts were developed during later period may be after Third BCE which first appeared in the Apocalyptic book of Daniel as a promise afterlife.

    September 26, 2021 at 5:16 pm#890747
    gadam123
    Participant

    So now the question of whether someone who is granted immorality can be destroyed by the one who granted it.  Do you really think that after God grants immortality to someone, He is POWERLESS to take it back?

    Job 1:21… Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: Jehovah gave, and Jehovah hath taken away; blessed be the name of Jehovah.

    Eccl 12:7… Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    And what’s more, we have the words of God Himself…

    Psalm 82:6-7…  I have said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But like mortals you will die…

    It can’t get much clearer than that, Adam.  God is clearly telling immortal beings that they will die like mortal beings die.

    Hi Mike, the verses you quoted from Job and  Eccl talk about the death of a man. Here the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God. Where is the so called immortal soul here in these verse?

    Ps 82 , 89, Deut 32:8-9 and few other texts in the Hebrew Bible reflect the Polytheistic environment of the Hebrew religion where the God Yahweh shown as subordinate to the most high like El Elyon and he sits in the council of so called gods. So the assumption of concept of immortality to these so called gods as quoted in your post is beyond the Biblical concept of the immortality and eternal life. The immortality of the soul is another developed idea based on the Platonic duality which is visible in some of the texts of the NT.

    September 26, 2021 at 5:34 pm#890748
    gadam123
    Participant

    So that being said, back to that other route I’m trying…

    There are only 3 possibilities, Adam…

    1.  Jesus was indeed the prophesied Messiah, and God did miracles through him.

    2.  Jesus was not who he claimed to be, and God did miracles through a liar.

    3.  God never did miracles through Jesus at all.

    Which of those 3 do you believe?

    Hi Mike, I have already replied number of times on these questions of your on Jesus’ Messiahship which are not relevant . If you want the  debate on Jesus’ Messiahship you can argue on the appropriate thread. I can transfer these arguments of yours to that thread…..

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