Home Questions & Answers Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth? Page 1,166

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

, , Questions & Answers, , , , , 25,923
Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 23,301 through 23,320 (of 25,924 total)
123…1,1651,1661,167…1,2951,2961,297
  • Author
    Posts
  • September 10, 2021 at 11:38 pm#890312
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We are created and later on, born again.

    First the flesh and then the Spirit.

    Jesus Christ is the Word of God who was WITH God.

    He is the only begotten of God and divine.

    But he came in the flesh.

    But now he is in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    And our bodies will be like his.

    He calls us brother.

    God calls us children.

    September 12, 2021 at 7:51 am#890361
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Did John make up a fictional character who did miracles?  Or was this “Jesus” in John’s writings a real person that John knew?

    Adam: Sorry I am not going for your tricky questions.

    Nothing tricky about it, Adam.  Jesus is included in secular historical accounts, therefore he definitely existed.  Christians believe that he existed as the messiah the Jews were promised, that he taught the will of God and that his God performed many signs and wonders through him while he dwelt on the earth.

    John wrote about many of these teachings and miracles.  You deny that they happened, right?  Because Jesus wasn’t the promised messiah, right?

    So, starting at the beginning… do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth existed at all?  Yes or No?

    If so, do you believe that God performed many signs and wonders through him?  Yes or No?

    (My intent is to show that you have NO valid reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah who was promised by God.  Of course it seems you know my intent, and know I will be successful.  Hence your refusal to answer simple Yes or No questions.  But maybe you’ll prove me wrong.  Personally I believe you’ll just keep deflecting so you don’t have to answer, but maybe…)

    September 12, 2021 at 7:58 am#890362
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Yes but the actual reason is whenever someone clicks the reply to your post you will get notification.

    Ahh… now that makes perfect sense.  I don’t ever click the “Reply” button.  I just copy and paste the other person’s comments into my post.  So apparently the notification only happens when people do click the “Reply” button.

    Thanks Adam and Admin.  Problem solved.

    September 12, 2021 at 8:00 am#890363
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: I always wonder what is this “God created all things though him”?

    Me too.  What exactly does it mean that God created all things through Jesus?  We’re not given any specifics, so we’re left with the knowledge that God is the one who created, and He did that through Jesus somehow.  The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.

    September 12, 2021 at 8:02 am#890365
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Admin:  Overall, the older topics work, so I won’t try and find a fix. But I will try cloning the topic and I will test it to see if that fixes the notifications.

    I still get the same notifications, and now there are a lot more pages to this thread than before.  Last week we were on page 839 or something.  Today there are over a thousand pages. Neither of these things need to be addressed as far as I’m concerned. 👍

    It hasn’t affected the function of the thread in any way, so it’s all good.

    September 12, 2021 at 8:08 am#890366
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  It’s good that you dropped the idea of ‘billions becoming Christians’.

    It’s not “dropped”.  I said let’s just forget about that part for now.  I’ll come back to it later.  I just wanted to remove it for now because it was giving you an escape from directly addressing the questions I asked.

    September 12, 2021 at 8:35 am#890367
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  ...the time will come when you will realize that JESUS IS OTHER THAN YOU THINK
    TRY TO TELL HIM IN FACE: JESUS YOU DID NOTHING CREATED…

    Point taken.  I always try to say that the scriptures don’t say that Jesus created anything at all – unless you count the whip he fashioned from cords.  I try to word it that way because we don’t know exactly what “God created all things through Jesus” means.  Proverbs 8 might say that Jesus was as a “master craftsman” at God’s side while God was creating the physical world.  Could that mean that Jesus took an active part in the creation?  I don’t know – especially when the meaning of the Hebrew term used is not fully known.  From the NET scholars…

    2 tn Critical to the interpretation of this line is the meaning of אָמוֹן (’amon). Several suggestions have been made: “master craftsman” (cf. ASV, NASB, NIV, NRSV), “nursing child” (cf. NCV), “foster father.” R. B. Y. Scott chooses “faithful” – a binding or living link (“Wisdom in Creation: The ‘Amon of Proverbs 8:30,” VT 10 [1960]: 213-23). The image of a child is consistent with the previous figure of being “given birth to” (vv. 24, 25). However, “craftsman” has the most support (LXX, Vulgate, Syriac, Tg. Prov 8:30, Song 7:1; Jer 52:15; also P. W. Skehan, “Structures in Poems on Wisdom: Proverbs 8 and Sirach 24,” CBQ 41 [1979]: 365-79).

    So for all we know, “nursing child” is the correct meaning – which would fit with him saying he was “created” as the first of God’s works, and the following verses where he says he was “born” and “given birth”.  Add to that the fact that in Proverbs 8, Jesus never attributes any act of creation to himself.  The entire passage is him talking about how he was there shouting for joy when GOD created this thing and that thing.

    Now consider this Job passage…

    Job 38:4-7…  Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Isn’t Jesus a son of God?  And doesn’t Jesus call himself the bright morning star in Rev 22:16?

    Could it be that Jesus was one of the many sons of God and morning stars that sang and shouted for joy while God created the physical world?  Could Proverbs 8 simply be Jesus saying that he was the son of God/morning star who was at God’s side when this creation took place?  Wouldn’t that align with Jesus’ position right now:  A morning star/son of God who has the closest relationship with his Father, and sits at God’s right hand?

    The bottom line is that, according to Jesus and his own disciples, God created the world, not Jesus.  So I don’t think Proclaimer will be in any trouble with Jesus for saying what the scriptures teach.

    September 12, 2021 at 8:39 am#890368
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Mike

    The bottom line is that God, not Jesus, is our Creator.  

     

    Does God continue to support his creation (the earth, the suns, all the planets etc.) by (through) Jesus Christ in the same way that He (God) created everything by (through) JESUS CHRIST. ???
    …. GOD CONTINUALLY TRANSMITTING HIS CREATIVE POWER TO THE SON AND HIS POWER TO SUPPORT HIS CREATION …. CONTINUALLY …. ???

    Hebrew 1: 3
    and upholding all things by the word of his power ,.

    I BELIEVE GOD HAS MADE A LOT SIMPLER.

    WHEN THE SON WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE PERFECT LIKE OF THE FATHER, (see Hebrews 1: 3) HE COMMUNICATED TO HIM HIS OWN DIVINE ATTRIBUTES (OMNI-POTENCY)
    ….-SCIENCE
    ….-PRESENCE)

    THIS IS WHAT I CONTINUE TO BELIEVE SUPPORTED BY HEBREWS 1: 3)

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power. When he had by himself purged our sins, he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    September 12, 2021 at 8:44 am#890369
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    sonofGod:  Who? how about “what is the word”?

    The word, or logos is defined by a message not emphasizing the actual words or means used to communicate the message but the intent of the message sender.   Another Greek word, rhema, emphasizes the actual words used to communicate the message.  Both are important.

    Logos is the message, the intended idea or concept that is being communicated

    God’s written word is the logos, as well as the author of God’s word, that is God himself as well as the son of God who also communicates the message God intends for us to receive, believe and understand.

    Without considering the actual definition of the word logos, we lose the great intent of John 1.  that is, God is communicating himself to us via the written word and the word in the flesh, Jesus Christ

    Hi sonofGod.  The Greek words “logos” and “rhema” don’t have any significant mystical meanings.  They both just mean “word”, and are used interchangeably throughout the NT.

    Jesus has, as one of his many titles, The Word of God because he is God’s preeminent spokesman.  He is a prophet and messenger of God – not God Himself.

    Cheers

    September 12, 2021 at 8:53 am#890370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  In which scripture(s) can I read about “glorified spiritual flesh”?  

    Carmel: YOU ARE STILL LIVING ON MILK!

    Jesus Christ GODMAN!

    Etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah for enough words to make an entire book.  🙄

    Carmel, try talking less and saying more, okay?  I await your scripture(s) in which I can read about “glorified spiritual flesh” – because you didn’t include any in your last novel.

    Also, I await the answer to these questions…

    1.  According to scriptures, did God perform miracles through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    2. According to scriptures, did God perform miracles through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    3.  According to scriptures, can God perform even greater miracles through any of us?  Yes or No?

    September 12, 2021 at 8:59 am#890371
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    Do you hear that, Gene and Carmel?  The last Adam (ie: Jesus) became a spirit.  He is not a man in heaven, guys.  He is a spirit now, as are all of those who dwell in heaven.  Flesh cannot see, enter, or inherit the spiritual kingdom of God.  I learned these things from my Lord, who currently dwells in heaven at the right hand of his and our God, Yahweh.

    September 12, 2021 at 9:04 am#890372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: I’ve rebuilt this topic and merged some smaller old topics that were on the same subject. Not sure if this will resolve the “from jammin” problem.

    I still get the “from jammin” notifications, but it’s not a problem.  I was just trying to find out if Adam or Carmel WERE jammin, posting under new names.  It wasn’t that big of a deal either way, but thanks.

    Btw, since you merged some threads and changed the page count, when I started today on page 839, there were posts from Nick, terrarica and Kerwin.  Nice little blast from the past.  I assume terrarica has passed – as he had terminal prostate cancer the last I spoke to him.  I heard that Kerwin was also in very bad health.  Maybe I’ll talk to them again after the resurrection.  How about Nick?  Any word from him lately?

    September 12, 2021 at 9:11 am#890373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Christianity created myths on Messiah and made him non-human and alien to us.

    Do you also consider God to be a “myth” and “alien to us” because He is also “non-human”?

    September 12, 2021 at 9:37 am#890374
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Does God continue to support his creation (the earth, the suns, all the planets etc.) by (through) Jesus Christ in the same way that He (God) created everything by (through) JESUS CHRIST. ???
    …. GOD CONTINUALLY TRANSMITTING HIS CREATIVE POWER TO THE SON AND HIS POWER TO SUPPORT HIS CREATION …. CONTINUALLY …. ???

    Hebrew 1: 3
    and upholding all things by the word of his power ,.

    Jesus Christ is Lord. So he is in charge of creation. He delegates on behalf of God.

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    September 12, 2021 at 9:57 am#890376
    Admin
    Keymaster

    @mikeboll64

    Read this.

    Merged topics

    September 12, 2021 at 10:00 am#890377
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny: If Christ is the only begotten of the Father, then we cannot be begotten of the Father in a literal sense. It can only be in a secondary sense of the word.

    But how do you know that Jesus being “begotten” of God isn’t also in a secondary sense of the word?  What in scripture tells you that the Greek word “gennao” refers to a literal “biological” begetting when it’s used of Jesus, but a secondary sense when used of us?

    Danny:  You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God–we are said to be begotten of God.
    But we are not “monogenes/only-begotten.” That refers to Jesus’ deity.
    Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers on 1 John 5:1
    “Begotten.—Of those who have the new birth, in a general sense: quite distinct from “only-begotten.””

    I’d ask Ellicott the same thing if I could – because it’s clear that he is also allowing personal preferences for what he thinks Jesus should be to make decisions for him about things we aren’t explicitly told in scripture.

    Consider…

    Heb 1:5… Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?

    John 3:12-13… Yet to all who did receive him… he gave the right to become children begotten… of God.

    1 John 5:1… Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God.

    All three are the same Greek word – once used for Jesus, and twice for others.  Yet there is nothing in scripture that says the word is metaphorical for us, but literal for Jesus, right?  You want that to be the case, but scripture doesn’t tell us it’s the case.  Can you agree to that?

    Now consider…

    John 3:16… For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…

    Heb 11:17… By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son…

    Again, it is the same Greek word in both verses.  Since we know that Abraham had eight sons, we also know that “only begotten” in reference to Isaac isn’t literal, right?  We also know that God has millions of sons – so what in scripture tells us that “only begotten” in reference to Jesus absolutely positively must be literal?

    The answer is “nothing”, Danny.  There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Jesus’ “only begotten” status is literal, while Isaac’s is not.  There is nothing in scripture to say that “begotten” is literal when it comes to Jesus, but metaphorical when it comes to others who are begotten of God.

    You are free to believe these things like Ellicott does.  I just want you to understand that there is nothing in the scriptures or the Greek language that makes those things true.  It is just a belief you have because of your personal desire for Jesus to be something more than what the scriptures teach about him.

    The scriptures teach that Jesus is a son, servant, messiah, spokesman, priest, holy one, prophet, sacrificial lamb, and angel OF God… not God Himself – and certainly not a member in some unscriptural “Godhead”.

    The scriptures do use the words “gennao” and “monogenes” of Jesus – but they use those same words of people other than Jesus too.  And the scriptures also use “created as the first of God’s works”, “firstborn of every creature“, and “beginning of the creation by God” in reference to Jesus.

    And finally, any living thing which has ever been begotten is a new creation that didn’t exist before it was begotten.  So whether we’re talking about Jesus himself, or the ones who accept him as God’s messiah, those who are begotten of God are also creations of God.

    Cheers

    September 12, 2021 at 10:14 am#890381
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  In your opinion, what would be the difference between a created son of God and an uncreated son of God?

    Right off the bat…

    1.  The former is scriptural for all sons of God, while the latter is not said in scripture to apply to any son of God.

    2.  The former is logical, since no son exists until he is brought into existence by his father (who always exists prior to his son coming into existence).  The latter would therefore be illogical.

    September 12, 2021 at 10:23 am#890382
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: LUCIFER THE LIGHT BRINGER!
    THE BEGINNING!
    HIDDEN IN LUCIFER’S HEART 

    THE FIRST-EVER DIVINE CREATURE HEART! 
    MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!

    Here is who Carmel is describing…

    baphom

    I fear Satan has taken control of Carmel.

    September 12, 2021 at 2:55 pm#890399
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: 2.

    The former is logical, since no son exists until he is brought into existence by his father (who always exists prior to his son coming into existence). The latter would therefore be illogical.

    You believe that the Eternal One was not always a father, right?

    September 12, 2021 at 3:11 pm#890400
    gadam123
    Participant

    Nothing tricky about it, Adam.  Jesus is included in secular historical accounts, therefore he definitely existed.  Christians believe that he existed as the messiah the Jews were promised, that he taught the will of God and that his God performed many signs and wonders through him while he dwelt on the earth.

    Hi Mike thanks for your replies to my posts. Yes I am not disputing his existence as a Jewish man. Regarding his Messiahship it was rejected the Jews of his time and is being debated these days. Performing signs and wonders nothing new to Hebrew scriptures when we take the examples of Moses, Elijah, Elisha and other men of God. But that can not make him Messiah.

    (My intent is to show that you have NO valid reason to not accept Jesus as the messiah who was promised by God.  Of course it seems you know my intent, and know I will be successful.  Hence your refusal to answer simple Yes or No questions.  But maybe you’ll prove me wrong.  Personally I believe you’ll just keep deflecting so you don’t have to answer, but maybe…)

    So it’s your rightful conclusion on me? If you want debate on Jesus’ Messiahship please come to the appropriate thread. You can find plenty of arguments on the topic.

     

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 23,301 through 23,320 (of 25,924 total)
123…1,1651,1661,167…1,2951,2961,297
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
POPULAR TOPICS
ACTIVE TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
 Log in with Facebook
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

 Log in with Facebook
or

Create Account