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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 23,241 through 23,260 (of 25,924 total)
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  • September 6, 2021 at 6:37 am#873471
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: HE IS A BEGOTTEN BEING, THE REFLECTION OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AND THE EVEN FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON, HE IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER.

    One who is begotten is not equal to the one who begat him.  A reflection of the sun is not the sun itself.  A footprint is not the foot that made the impression.

    The Bible teaches that Jesus is “the spitting image” of the God who created him as the first of His works.  Not that he is equal with or identical to his God – but that he imitates his Father and God, and does such a good job at it that he is the “spitting image” of Him.

    Don’t let your personal desires for Jesus to be something the scriptures don’t say he is override what the scriptures actually do teach about our Lord.

    September 6, 2021 at 6:50 am#873472
    Berean
    Participant

    Danny

    I THNK IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE HOLY ANGELS, CREATURES OF GOD, ARE NOT BEGOTTEN DIRECTLY FROM GOD,LIKE JESUS, THAT THEY ARE NOT LITTERAL SONS OF GOD.🙂

    September 6, 2021 at 6:52 am#873473
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  No Proclaimer, I BELEIVE THAT THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS HIS BEGOTTEN AND BELOVED SON.

    Those things are scriptural.

    Berean:  WHAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE SON HAS ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER. AND THEREFORE HE HAS IN HIS DIVINITY THE OMNIPOTENCE, THE OMNIPRESENCE, AND THE OMNISCIENCE OF HIS FATHER.

    Those things are not scriptural, and are in fact contradicted by scripture.

    The Father is greater than Jesus and has to place Jesus’ enemies at his feet so that Jesus can destroy them, ie: Jesus cannot possibly be omnipotent.

    Jesus doesn’t know the day or the hour – and had to have John’s revelation given to him by his and our God, ie: Jesus cannot possibly be omniscient.

    Neither Jesus nor his God are omnipresent.  They both rule from thrones in heaven.  They can reach anywhere in creation through spirit, but they themselves are located above us in one spot above the firmament, where their thrones are surrounded by the thrones of 24 elders.

    Think it out… if God (or Jesus) were truly omnipresent, then they’d be everywhere all the time, right?  And to do that, they’d have to exist in every single place in all of creation, right?  And to do that, they’d have to BE every single thing in creation.  Understand?  If God is omnipresent, then He exists as every single atom (and the spaces between the atoms) in the pencil on my desk.  That would mean that my pencil actually IS God, since God exists in 100% of the space that my pencil takes up.  The lead would be God.  The wood would be God.  The metal would be God.  The eraser would be God.

    So no… neither God nor Jesus are omnipresent.  And only God is omniscient and omnipotent.

     

    September 6, 2021 at 7:32 am#873474
    Berean
    Participant

    MIKE

    👇

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead(attributs OF God) bodily. (Colossians 2:9) 

    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  (Colossians 1:17) 

    and upholding all things by the word of his power,…(Hebrews 1:3)

    September 6, 2021 at 9:25 am#873475
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean.

    Nothing in your last post says he is God.

    September 6, 2021 at 9:27 am#873476
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Son is not equal to the Father

    Berean: HE IS A BEGOTTEN BEING, THE REFLECTION OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AND THE EVEN FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON, HE IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER.

    Exactly, except he is not equal to his Father.

    Did you ever tell your own father that you were equal to him and you are also the head of your household? Or would you be happy if your son stated that to you.

    Let Jesus correct you on this:

    Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid. You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 

    September 6, 2021 at 9:32 am#873477
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Another confused Trinitarian

    Certainly not, John knew that the Son of God was God in the beginning and that he was made flesh. This is confirmed by Paul at Colossians 2: 9 which says that:
    In Christ “dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Divinity with humanity) Amen!

    To the Philippians he will say:
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and TOOK UPON HIMSELF THE FORM OF A SERVANT AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Another confused Trinitarian or Whateverarian.

    This is speaking of nature, not identity.

    In nature he was divine. He emptied himself, came in flesh, and is now back in the glory he had with God before the cosmos. Nothing in this verse says he us the Most High God.

    September 6, 2021 at 9:35 am#873478
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who wants eternal life?

    For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only TRUE God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

    Following a third century creed is not going to save anyone.

    September 6, 2021 at 6:50 pm#873485
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    If Jesus is not God from God, he cannot create anything, save anything, judge anything, ….

    September 7, 2021 at 2:09 am#873487
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……..Bingo, you hit it !   Why do you think Jesus said,  “The son of man”  (Jesus Christ)  can do “NOTHING”  of  “himself”.    When are you going to start to truly believe what Jesus said ,  Instead of what all those false “trinitarian” teachers , your always quoting us?

    That’s why, we bow our knee to Jesus,  “to the glory of God”,  not to the glory of Jesus, (as our God),  like trinitarians do,  why, because That would make us “idolaters”  like they are.

    peace and love to you and yours ……….gene

     

    September 7, 2021 at 2:54 am#873489
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene,

    Still, it is the truth. A man cannot save mankind. Jesus who was God had to take humanity on his divinity to be able to save us. And that, no one will be able to dismantle this glorious fact.

    Amen!

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.(Colossians 2:9)

    September 7, 2021 at 3:17 am#873492
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi brother Gene, if Jesus was a prophet like Moses we need not believe in him or know him for getting the eternal life as claimed by the Fourth Gospel in John 17:3.

    Hi Adam, you never explained to me how you think the Christian movement came to be if Jesus isn’t the promised messiah.

    1.  Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.

    2.  A bunch of other people joined him in his intent to deceive God’s chosen people.

    3.  Hundreds or thousands of others helped the deception by making up stories of how they were healed.

    4.  Many thousands were willingly tormented, tortured and killed to keep up the deception.

    5.  The lie eventually spread throughout the world to billions of people.

    That’s the tip of the iceberg of things you must believe to reject Jesus as the promised messiah.  Do you believe these things?

    September 7, 2021 at 3:19 am#873493
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…..I join your prayer, for Carmel brother. I believe Satan has really been screwing with him.  I call on  the LORD our GOD,  TO REBUCK Satan and cast him away from CARMEL, in the name of Jesus Christ our lord. 

    Amen.

    September 7, 2021 at 3:27 am#873494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Hi Danny

    I believe the Son is the only begotten literal son of God. I have been saying that for 28+ years. Jesus is begotten, not created. A created son would not be a literal son.   

    Danny:  Yes. I believe that too.

    Berean: Angels who have never sinned are created beings and they are LITERAL SONS.

    👍👍

     

    September 7, 2021 at 3:31 am#873495
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son OF God

    WAS BEGOTTEN OF THE SUBSTANCE

    OF GOD ( DIVINE AND ETERNAL SUBSTANCE OF GOD)

    Please show me the bolded part in scripture.  If it’s not in the scriptures, then please don’t add to the scriptures.

    September 7, 2021 at 3:42 am#873496
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  Well I think [angels] are not literal sons in the sense that they are not begotten.

    1 John 5:1… Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God…

    Danny, are those who believe Jesus is the Christ literal sons of God because they are begotten of God?

    Are those who are begotten of God not creations of God because they are begotten of God?

    September 7, 2021 at 3:53 am#873497
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Please show me the bolded part in scripture.  If it’s not in the scriptures, then please don’t add to the scriptures.

     

    Me

     

    IT IS DONE BUT YOUR CANNOT SEE

    September 7, 2021 at 3:59 am#873498
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD(ATTRIBUTS OF GOD) BODILY. (COLOSSIANS 2:9) 

    Col 2:9… For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily…

    Agreed.

    Berean:  AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.  (COLOSSIANS 1:17) 

    Col 1:17… He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Agreed.

    Berean:  AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER,…(HEBREWS 1:3)

    Heb 1:3… The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the representation of his being, sustaining all things by the word of his power. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    Agreed.  The radiance of the sun is not the sun.  A representation of God is not God. And after being God’s sacrificial lamb to atone for our sins, Jesus now sits in a very prestigious position at the right hand of God.

    So you keep on posting these same verses as if you think they somehow make Jesus God.  They don’t.  They tell us that Jesus is very much like his and our God, YHWH, and that God has given His servant Jesus very much power.

    September 7, 2021 at 4:33 am#873499
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hey Guys,

    I don’t remember the questions you sent to me before
    the break I had.
    If you have any remaining questions then please ask me again.
    Thank you and God bless!

    September 7, 2021 at 4:40 am#873500
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Adam, you never explained to me how you think the Christian movement came to be if Jesus isn’t the promised messiah.

    Hi Mike, thanks for your post to me on Jesus’ Messiahship. The first thing comes to my mind, why Jesus Messiahship was required for Christian movement? Messiahship is the theme of Judaism than Christian one.  In fact the NT writers tried hard to place Jesus in the position of (Hebrew) Jewish Messiah. When I go through various Christian Forums I see they are concentrated much on his divinity than Messiahship. Please see the difference, Jesus Messiahship is outdated topic when compared to his divinity.

    So I feel Jesus Messiahship was not required for Christian movement but it was required for winning a Jew for Christianity. You can find this struggle in the NT writings but it could not succeed and the Christian movement became that of Gentiles.

    1.  Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.

    2.  A bunch of other people joined him in his intent to deceive God’s chosen people.

    3.  Hundreds or thousands of others helped the deception by making up stories of how they were healed.

    4.  Many thousands were willingly tormented, tortured and killed to keep up the deception.

    5.  The lie eventually spread throughout the world to billions of people.

    Sorry I am not here to make anyone  liar forget about Jesus. Rapid spread of religion is not unique to Christianity when we look at Islam as that is the fast growing religion today.

    That’s the tip of the iceberg of things you must believe to reject Jesus as the promised messiah.  Do you believe these things?

    I don’t think Jesus’ Messiahship is required for Christianity as it is for Judaism. So there is no question of rejection of Jesus’ Messiahship.

    Please don’t mistake me as I am sceptical about various claims of the Christianity and the New Testament. I am only comparing the greatest claims of the NT writers and Christianity with the Hebrew Bible as it was the primary source for those claims.

    Thank you…..

     

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