Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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September 3, 2021 at 11:22 am#873335
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: I believe the Father and Son are identical in every way possible except one was begotten as the only begotten (the Son), and the other (the Father) was the begetter. The Father was never begotten.
The angels were not asexually reproduced from the Father. It was through the Son that angels were created, not begotten.
Every living thing that has ever been begotten was a new creation. So always keep in mind that it isn’t any scripture, but merely your own personal desire that leads you to believe that Jesus is the only exception to that rule.
And Jesus is not only called “begotten”, but also “the firstborn of every CREATURE” and “the beginning of the CREATION by God”. It is also written of him that he “was CREATED as the first of God’s works”, and that “his ORIGIN was from ancient times… from days of old”. Again, it is nothing in the scriptures themselves, but merely your own personal desires that lead you to interpret these scriptures in absurd ways in an effort to keep them from teaching what they actually teach.
So… if Jesus is identical to his and our God in every conceivable way, why did God have to give him a revelation to pass on to John? Why did he not already know the revelation – and the day and the hour for that matter? Why does he say that his own God is greater than himself? Why does Jesus call him God at all? Surely God the Father doesn’t have a God of His own, right? So why then would an identical entity have a God of his own? Why do the Apostles call Jesus – “identical to God in every conceivable way” – God’s holy servant? This is just the tip of the iceberg. You don’t have to address them all, but I’d appreciate an answer to a couple of them for now.
As for the angels, you believe that the Son created them, right? And if the Son is identical to God, the why couldn’t the Son (or Father) have asexually produced them as well? What in scripture prohibits it? (I assume you think the Son did all the creating, since although it’s clear from Heb 1:2 that God created the world through Jesus, you assume that means Jesus is the actual one who stretched out the heaven and formed the earth, right? Correct me if I’m wrong.)

September 3, 2021 at 11:22 am#873336
Proclaimer
Participant
I believe the following is correct:
The Son is theos
The Son is god
The Father and the Son are theos
The Father and the Son are god.
The Father is not the Son.
Two persons are theos.
Two persons are god.
There is one god.
Two persons act together as one god.
For us, there is one God, the Father.
For you there is one God, the Father and Son.
You are still confused by nature and identity.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
September 3, 2021 at 11:27 am#873337
Proclaimer
Participant
Every living thing that has ever been begotten was a new creation. So always keep in mind that it isn’t any scripture, but merely your own personal desire that leads you to believe that Jesus is the only exception to that rule.
The rule is that there was nothing made that wasn’t made through the Logos.
And who is the Logos? It’s Jesus.
He came directly from God.
He was born not created.
Yes he became flesh.
Jesus Christ the Son of God and Lord of God’s creation is an exception.
He is neither creature or God.
He is the mediator between man and creation, man and God.
He is unique.
He was the first.
If the Word came from God, then the Word is different.
John goes to great lengths to talk about the unique position of the Word.
He was with God before the cosmos and was divine.
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
Clearly he wasn’t created through himself.
Let’s give him is his rightful place in our hearts and our understanding.
September 3, 2021 at 11:29 am#873338
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Mike
Astonishing the energy you deploy to resist against the truth …..
It doesn’t take that much energy to present you with the truth, Berean. I will, however, take your comment to mean: “Mike, I can’t actually refute the things you said in your last post, so I’ll just make a baseless claim that you are arguing against truth.”
Berean, the scriptures contain the truth. Can you refute anything I’ve ever posted to you as being unscriptural?
September 3, 2021 at 11:33 am#873339
Proclaimer
Participant
Hi Proclaimer,
Jesus and His Father are both deity not just divine.
I believe this is what John 1:1 teaches.
“what God was, the Word was”
Clearly in your own post you have distinguished two. God and Jesus. That is good as the scriptures do this too.
Regardless of what the difference between deity and divinity is, you subconsciously or not recognise that there is God and there is Jesus. After all, he is called God’s Son. So that alone makes God his Father.
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
September 3, 2021 at 11:35 am#873340
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Jesus is no longer a man, since flesh cannot see, enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Carmel: NO Mike you are not precise, NOT FLESH, but
FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
It’s called in scripture “flesh and blood” and “flesh and bone”. Both phrases mean what “flesh and blood” means to us today when talking about a person: a member of mankind.
Jesus was once a god who dwelt alongside his and our God in heaven.
Then Jesus was a man who dwelt on earth for about 33 years.
Now Jesus is a god again, alongside his own God in heaven.

September 3, 2021 at 11:43 am#873342
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: 1. Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Moses? Yes or No?
2. Is it scriptural that God performed signs and wonders through His servant Jesus? Yes or No?
3. Is it scriptural that God could perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us? Yes or No?
Carmel: I am just waiting for the right time to do that!
Mike, since your PERCEPTION AND MENTALITY regarding God and Jesus Christ is DIFFERENT TO mine they are simply
ALL NO Mr. Mike!
I am in the position to discern THE TRUE GOD, but I’m afraid YOU ARE NOT…
I’m confused. No you won’t answer these simple questions? Or the answer to them is “No”?
Carmel, it’s no secret that your perception regarding God and Jesus is different from mine. Heck, yours is different from anyone I know. It’s also no secret that a person self-promoting a more enlightened understanding than others have counts for nothing. After all, even your “GODMAN” said, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing”, right?
So let’s leave that out of it altogether, and just discuss what the Bible does and doesn’t teach from now on, okay?
I claim that the Bible does teach those three things I’ve been asking you about. Are you saying that the Bible doesn’t teach them?
September 3, 2021 at 7:03 pm#873351
Berean
Participant
Mike
For you Mike, Christ is an angel, a god, but not really THE OWN SON OF GOD, WHO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREWS
1: 3 IS: , ….the brightness of his glory,
(Glory OF God the Father )
and
the express image of his person

This means (to me) that the Son WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER IS SPIRITUALLY AND IN THE NATURE OF HIS SUBSTANTIAL BEING.
THUS, THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY, BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.
HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD, HE IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD WHO IN THE BEGINNING WAS “GOD” AND WITH, FOR GOD, IN HARMONY WITH THE ALIVE AND ALMIGHTY GOD AND WHO WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH ……
If for you Christ created only one whip, for me Christ is the creator of the universe by the will of the Father.
This is the first lesson you must learn, because if Christ “THE WORD” is not the creator of the universe, he cannot BE THE SAVIOR …
Maybe I go wrong to explain it to you but it is so …. I pray that someone wiser than me shows it to you, if you accepte not to stiffen you in your position. …
September 4, 2021 at 2:32 am#873355
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean, all mankind is created to be in the “image” of God, Jesus was the first from mankind to achieve that Goal, God the Father has for us all. Why can’t you get that in your mind, that Jesus is what God the Father has in mind for us all. We may not all ever have his authority , but we will share in his inheritance and Honor and Glory. That is what God the Father wants for us all.
Why do you think it says this…..
Eph 4:13….“till we all come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
Berean you need to really study this, and think about it brother, it really means we are to become “EXACTLY’” like Jesus is, in every way.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
September 4, 2021 at 4:27 am#873356
Berean
Participant
Gene ,
What caught your attention in what I wrote that you told me that?
September 4, 2021 at 4:44 am#873357
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@Lightenup
Hi LU,
You asked:
Danny and Berean,
The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?
I agree.
September 4, 2021 at 5:00 am#873358
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@t8
Proclaimer,
Is Jesus Christ your God?
A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ will suffice.
September 4, 2021 at 5:03 am#873359
Berean
Participant
Danny and Berean,
The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?
Hi LU
YES!
MY FAVORIT TEXTE FOR THE SON AS YHVH IS FROM PSALM 24
What do you think LU

Darby’s English Translation
24:8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.
Darby’s English Translation
24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
Hebrew Transliterated
24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.
Hebrew Transliterated
24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.


September 4, 2021 at 5:07 am#873360
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean……Your words make Jesus’ humanity, seem different, then the rest of his human brothers and sisters. Like, what is written about him just applies to him and not the rest of mankind. But don’t feel bad, nearly all Christendom does that also. That is exactly what the “Doctrine of the Trinity” does, it “separates” Jesus from the rest of mankind.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

September 4, 2021 at 5:22 am#873361
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Danny, Proclaimer does not believe Jesus is GOD, neither do I, and others here don’t either. We have a God and Heavenly Father , it is the exact same God and Father, Jesus has.
We need to Obey him exactly as Jesus did and does.
peace and love to you and yours………gene

September 4, 2021 at 10:12 am#873370
Proclaimer
Participant
Proclaimer,
Is Jesus Christ your God?
A simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ will suffice.
Yes. In the sense that he has rule over me.
But he is not the Most High God and the God of the Bible.
Rather he is his Son.
It is the Father that reveals Jesus as the Son of God to a person and such a person is blessed.
It is a man’s own mind in collaboration with the Father of Lies that makes Jesus to be just a random created man or the Most High God.
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.…
September 5, 2021 at 2:37 am#873383
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Proclaimer, in a sense? , he is either your GOD , or Not !
You seem like being a fence walker. Not hot nor cold. Remember what Jesus said to the Church of Ephesus. Rev 2:4 “First love”
This also…….“but unto us “true believers” there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between GOD and men, “THE MAN” Jesus Christ” .
proclaimer , there are “NO” “small” GOD’S.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
September 5, 2021 at 2:52 am#873386
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: But to us true believers like Jesus and myself, and those that are true , we “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD that is a True God to us, and there is no other GOD TO US.
Hi Gene.
1 Cor 8:5-6… Truly even if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, yet to us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we through Him.
You believe the last part of the statement, but not the bolded part. I believe the entire statement, and have shown you some scriptures where Jehovah Himself calls others gods. The scriptural fact is that there are a bunch of gods, and Jehovah is the Most High God of all those other gods.
Jehovah can’t be the Most High God if there exist no less high gods. Do you understand that concept? Yes or No?
Jehovah can’t be the God of gods if there exist no other gods for Him to be the God of. Do you understand that concept? Yes or No?
Those titles (Most High God and God of gods) are nonsensical if there is literally only one god.
It would be equally nonsensical to assume that these other gods are inanimate objects created by man, because then those titles for Jehovah would mean that He is the Most High of the manmade idols, and the God of the manmade idols.
Psalm 138:1… A Psalm of David. I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
Gene, is David singing praises about Jehovah to manmade idols? Or to sentient beings? Which do you think?

September 5, 2021 at 3:36 am#873388
mikeboll64
Blocked
Danny: Irenaeus understood Jesus as more than “a god” or a divine being of a sort.
He referred to Jesus as God.
Let me repeat what Irenaeus said:
“‘and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.”[21]
Hi Danny. Irenaeus was Greek and wrote in the same Greek language that the NT was written in. He did not use capital letters, and so he couldn’t possibly have written that Jesus (or YHWH) was “God” – with a capital G.
I haven’t looked into his actual Greek writings, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that the statement you quoted above was written in Greek as…
“and the logos was theos, for that which is begotten of the theos is theos”.
He would have written it that way because that’s how the Apostle John wrote it. The Greek writers of the NT didn’t distinguish between upper and lower case letters as we do. Nor did they use indefinite articles (“a”, “an”) like we do in English. What John (and presumably) Irenaeus did was distinguish the Most High God from the logos by calling Him “THE theos”, and the logos only “theos” (no “THE”). Proclaimer just posted a writing from Origen who explains this…
We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article [“the”], and in some he omits it. He adds the article [“the”] to logos, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article [“the”], when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the logos is named theos…
The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype.
So in English, we’d take the theos with the article (“the theos”) and translate it as “God” with a capital G. We’d take the theos without the article and translate it as “a god” – supplying an indefinite article that wasn’t available to the Greek writers.
Did you know that the first time the Greek NT was translated into a language that used indefinite articles like we do in English was while the ancient Greek of the NT was still being widely spoken – the time when Irenaeus and Origin were alive? That translation was the Egyptian Coptic version. And the Coptic translation of John 1:1c is, “and the word was a god“.
That’s what Origen was saying, Danny… that John knew what he was doing. If he wanted to tell us that the logos was “God” with a capital G, he would have written that the logos was with THE god, and was THE god. John did not write that. John used THE god only for the one the logos was with in the beginning – not for the logos himself.
The correct English translation of John 1:1 is, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was a god.”
That’s why John also wrote…
John 1:18… No one has ever seen God. The only begotten god, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made Him known.
Jesus is the only begotten god… created by THE God as the first of His works. (Prov 8:22) That’s why John was able to write that no man has ever seen God – even after thousands of men had seen Jesus.

September 5, 2021 at 3:42 am#873389
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: How about it Mike.
David told us that the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth, from one end of the heaven to the other. Was David lying to us? Yes or No?
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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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