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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 24, 2021 at 10:22 am#873066
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi  Lu,

    YOU: God is eternal, was God always a father?

    If so, then God always had a son.

    ME: WITHIN THE DEITY, THERE IS ALWAYS

    THE CONCEPT AND STATE OF A FAMILY THOUGH 

    ALL SPIRITUAL.

    Matthew 19:4Who answering said to them:

    Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning,

    Made them male and female?
    And he said: 5For this cause shall a man leave father and mother,

    and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.
     6Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 

    THE ABOVE IS DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE DEITY AS WELL, 

    SINCE GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS.

    LET’S REFLECT ON THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE:

    Have ye not read, that he who made man

    from the beginning,

    Made them male and female?

    NOTICE: HE WHO MADE MAN FROM THE BEGINNING!

    HE DIDN’T SAY WHO CREATED MAN…..;

    WHICH IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS CHRIST, WHO WAS EMANATED FROM GOD AS AN EMBODIMENT OF LIGHT, IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

    THE BEGINNING!

    THE FIRST-EVER CARRIER OF THE DEITY!

    THE MAN!

    THE FATHER IN THE SON AND THE SON IN THE FATHER.

    ANDROGYNOUS MALE AND FEMALE,

    THE SON!

    ASSERTED AND SAID AGAIN:

    MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE!!! 

    GOD MADE THESE TWO SPIRITS ATTRIBUTED TO THE SON MALE AND FEMALE FOR THE SAKE OF CREATION!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!

    THUS THIS EMBODIMENT, THIS CARRIER OF GOD, THE MAN, JESUS CHRIST AS A SPIRIT  ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  HAD A SOUL THE MALE, AND A BODY, THE FEMALE.

    GOD MADE THEM SO!

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold all souls are mine:

    as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:….

    BOTH ANDROGYNOUS,  TWO SPIRITS, BOTH MALE AND FEMALE, ONE ACTS AS A SOUL, AND ONE ACTS AS A BODY, BOTH ATTRIBUTED TO

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON.

    NOW  TO THE DEITY BEFORE THE BEGINNING:

    THE SPIRIT WHO INDWELLS IN THIS EMBODIMENT,  ETERNALLY EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, IS GOD THE FATHER, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE IN THE HEART OF THE SON.

    THE SOUL OF THE FATHER, THE FEMALE, IS THE HOLY GHOST, ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,  THE INTERMEDIATE, THE LOVE, AND THE VOICE OF GOD, AND

    THE BODY IS THE SON ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE,

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH!

    …..And he said: 5For this cause shall a man,

    “THE WORD” made flesh, MALE AND FEMALE,

     LEAVE FATHER, THE SPIRIT,  

     and MOTHER, THE HOLY GHOST, THE SOUL OF THE FATHER,

    and shall cleave to HIS WIFE, THE BRIDE, THE CHURCH, THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL CREATION ALL IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH. THE FEMALE OF THE SON, John 3:29
    and they two, THE HOLY GHOST, THE BRIDEGROOM, THE MALE OF THE SON, THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH, and
     “THE WORD” THE BRIDE, THE FEMALE OF THE SON, THE BODY OF THE CHURCH,  THE ENTIRE PHYSICAL CREATION,

    shall be in ONE FLESH, ALL IN

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH.

    6Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh.

    (ANDROGYNOUS, MALE AND FEMALE!

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON!)

    What therefore God hath joined together,

     let no man put asunder. 

    LET NOT ANY KIND OF PROCESS, LGBT OF HUMAN BEINGS PUT ASUNDER!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 24, 2021 at 7:06 pm#873068
    gadam123
    Participant

    What if there is truth and it is revealed slowly in the right season. Or do we believe that 100% of the truth was dumped onto humanity in one hit. The latter doesn’t seem very smart to me, but that is your standard Adam.

    A plan usually has stages.

    And the fact that the Old Testament reveals truth in stages too doesn’t support your understanding does it?

    I think we can all agree that your narrative has to be wrong.

    Finally, you have shown zero proof that the Old Testament is the full revelation of God to man. Why didn’t the last prophet say he was the last if all truth from God was revealed. Or did he just forget to mention it?

    Hi Proclaimer, it’s deviation again from the topic. I don’t see the religion in terms of any revelation whether partial or full. I only see the religion as a developed or evolved entity. I was stating that each religion is having its basis on its own beliefs and scriptures. So the Hebrew religion need not depend on Christianity which was later developed or evolved. I think we can end this deviation here and come back to the topic John 1:1.

    August 25, 2021 at 2:29 am#873076
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..God the Father said,  that there would co4me a time when everyone would know about him, from the least to the greatest.  That time still has not come yet,  even Jesus said there would come a time when he would reveal the truth about the Father.  So more and more truth is given over time. Paul even said we only see in part at this time,  as looking through an obscure glass, but a time would come when we all will see clearly,  so it is a process of time when things are resealed right?

    peace and love to you and yours Adam. ………..gene

     

    August 25, 2021 at 3:10 am#873078
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…..God the Father said,  that there would co4me a time when everyone would know about him, from the least to the greatest.  That time still has not come yet,  even Jesus said there would come a time when he would reveal the truth about the Father.  So more and more truth is given over time. Paul even said we only see in part at this time,  as looking through an obscure glass, but a time would come when we all will see clearly,  so it is a process of time when things are resealed right?

    Hi brother Gene, Hebrew Bible does talk about the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9; Hab 2:14)

        But the earth will be filled
    with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
    as the waters cover the sea.

    It’s the NT and Christianity that claim the secrets revelations. I don’t think any thing to be revealed on God and Messiah as every thing was already written in the Tanakh.

    August 28, 2021 at 10:13 am#873149
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus doesn’t have that power independent of his God either.

    ME: MIKE JESUS IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER Hebrews 1:3

    ALSO: JESUS AND THE FATHER ARE ONE! 

    YOU: Jesus is also a creature who is dependent on his God for survival.

    Rev.3:14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,

    who is the beginning (arché) of the creation of God: 

    Strong’s Concordance

    arché: beginning, origin

    ME: Thus the phrase found in 3:14 means that Jesus was the

    “first cause”, the “origin”, of creation,

    not its first production. 

    YOU: Jesus is also a creature who is dependent on his God for survival.

    John 17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    ME:

    Mike, WHO DEPENDS ON WHO IN THE ABOVE?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 29, 2021 at 4:13 am#873158
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: GODMAN:

    1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    1 John 5:20…  And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, through His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    Carmel, the red “This” refers back to the “Him who is true” – not to His Son.  Besides, this was said after Jesus was exalted and back in heaven at the right hand of his and our God, YHWH.  Jesus is no longer a man, since flesh cannot see, enter or inherit the kingdom of heaven.  So even if you insisted that the red “This” referred to Jesus, it would say Jesus is “god” – but not “man”.  Therefore, not “GODMAN” as you erroneously claim all the time.

    Jesus is indeed a god… a mighty god as a matter of fact.  Only his own God is mightier… which prompts me to add another question to the ones you keep ignoring…

    1.  According to Jesus himself, is our God also Jesus’ God?  Yes or No?

    2.  Did God perform signs and wonders through His servant Moses?  Yes or No?

    3.  Did God perform signs and wonders through His servant Jesus?  Yes or No?

    4.  Can God perform even greater signs and wonders through any of us?  Yes or No?

    August 29, 2021 at 4:24 am#873160
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  The number one problem here is that you and others do not understand WHAT THE WORD GOD MEANS.  “THE WORD GOD IS NEVER A REAL PERSON, It “only” means THE ,  “RELATIONSHIP” YOU HAVE,   with something,  “ANYTHING” can be Your GOD. 

    That is 100% wrong, Gene.  There are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth.  Every one of those gods and every one of those lords is a PERSON – not a “relationship”.

    August 29, 2021 at 4:27 am#873161
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: When Jesus said , ‘it says you are God’s , that was meant in a possessive sense ,  not a real God being sense.

    When Jesus says God called them gods, he was referring to Psalm 82.  In that psalm, we see the account of a time when a bunch of gods were gathered before the Most High God in heaven, and the Most High God passed judgment upon many of them for not doing what He told them to do.  The judgment was that although they were gods, they would die like men.

    August 29, 2021 at 5:05 am#873165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  I just wish Mike would give up on science. I do not think that is his calling.

    1 Timothy 6:20-21… O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions from science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

    I do my own science, and have found absolutely nothing that contradicts the world God described through Moses and other Bible writers.

    How about you?  Have you personally verified anything regarding the scientific claims of godless men that contradict scripture?  Of course not.  These godless men show you CGI of a circle that they say is an actual photograph of the “planet Pluto” – and you blindly believe even as they laugh at you by putting the Disney character Pluto right in the image!

    Pluto on Pluto

    Pluto

    And what’s worse, you can’t even answer simple Biblical questions about these contradictions.  If you were honest, you’d at least come out and proclaim loudly and very clearly for all to see that you are aware that the Bible says A, but since you believe B, the Bible is clearly wrong.

    Why don’t you do that, Proclaimer?  The Bible says God sits on a throne above us (as in over our heads, up in the sky).  But that can’t possibly be true in your ball earth worldview, because “above us” is many different directions all at once, right?  So why not come right out and PROCLAIM that the Bible is wrong on this particular teaching?

    We’ll be waiting…

     

    August 29, 2021 at 5:52 am#873166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  That’s a pity Mike. A little foolishness here goes through the whole batch.

    It is indeed a pity, Proclaimer.  That’s why I’ll never stop trying to replace the unverified foolishness you spout with scriptural truth.  My hope is that it will be the truth, not the foolishness, that goes through the whole batch.

    Joshua 10:12-14…  On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

    So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

    The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going in about a full day. There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

    Proclaimer, is this scriptural account the truth?  Or a lie?  Since you only allow for the two options (true or lie), pick one of them now for all of us to see.  Was the author of the book of Joshua LYING?

    According to your worldview, he must have been lying, right?  What say you?

    August 29, 2021 at 5:59 am#873167
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    And let me add the preceding verse for your consideration…

    Joshua 10:11…  As they fled before Israel on the road down from Beth Horon to Azekah, the Lord hurled large hailstones down on them, and more of them died from the hail than were killed by the swords of the Israelites.

    How about this part, Proclaimer?  Does the godless “science falsely so-called” that you follow allow for large hailstones to just start dropping out of the sky and striking the enemies but not God’s people?  Do you accept that God can and did send these hailstones against the enemies of Israel?  Or will you say that the author of Joshua was just confused because “science” tells us that hailstones do not just randomly drop out of a clear blue sunny day and strike only one group of people and not the other group who is hot on the tails of the first group?

    August 29, 2021 at 6:17 am#873169
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    See Proclaimer, you either accept the Bible as written, or you become one of those who just pick and choose which scriptures they will accept, and which they will reject.

    I accept the Bible as written… all of it.  You are clearly one of the latter group, but the saddest thing is the REASON that you belong to that group.  The godless men who built your imaginary universe out thin air haven’t ever provided a single shred of scientific evidence that you and I can go verify for ourselves.  They are just looking up at lights in the sky and making up stories about those lights that clearly contradict, not only the description of the world that God Himself gave to Moses, but actual science!

    For example, there cannot exist in nature a pressurized system directly adjacent to a vacuum.  It is impossible, as anyone who’s ever popped a balloon can tell you (the pressurized system inside the balloon equalizes with the lower pressure outside the balloon the very second the barrier is breached with a pin).  Yet you believe (without verifiable empirical evidence) that we exist in a pressurized system that is directly adjacent to the most powerful vacuum ever imagined by man – with no barrier separating the two.  Impossible… according to REAL science.

    So the saddest part is that you believe these godless men without any verifiable evidence, in the face of actual scientific evidence that refutes their claims, and in spite of the fact that what they’re telling you directly contradicts what God told us about the world HE created. 😔

    August 29, 2021 at 6:42 am#873170
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……You said everyone of those Gods were a person, “O” really ,  many scriptures tell of God that have eyes and can’t , see legs and can’t walk, Gods made of trees that are decorated with Gold and silver or images and fastened with a banner so they can’t fall over.  Many of the Gods of different people are nothing but stone idols,  what do you even think IDOLATRY  IS?  IT WORSHIPING FALSE Gods.

    Jesus did not say that those people were themselves God’s,  what he meant was , that God sent his words unto God’s people, and they did not do it.  Why would Jesus say there were many other God’s and them turn around and say , ‘for this s eternal life , that they might know YOU “THE ONLY” true God, is that not saying there is “NO” OTHER “TRUE”  GOD?  That is to Jesus ,  anyway.
    If you understood that the word GOD, can apply to anything , then you col understad what Jesus was saying.  Yes there were GOD’S OF THE Amorites, the  Hittites,  , the Egyptians,  and on and on it GOES, EVEN THE SUN was a True GOD TO SOME PEOPLE,  THAT IS WHY , IT IS ALWAYS SAID LIKE THIS,  THE GOD “OF” THIS OR THAT,  YEHOVAH IS MY GOD AND Jesus’ GOD , AND THERE IS NO OTHER TRUE GOD TO US. Why?,  because we don’t bow or worship any other God people make unto themselves.  To us those Gods are false God and only exist in the minds  of those who believe in them,  because that is the only way those God’s, can even exist,  is in their minds.
    THE WORD  GOD IS A DESCRIPTOR , OF A RELATIONSHIP, WITH SOMETHING “ANYTHING THAT EXISTS”, Yes even money can be your TRUE  God.

    “But  US ( who believe the truth)  there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between men and God , it’s ,  “THE “MAN”,  JESUS CHRIST.  AS I said “simple as that.”   You choice is to believe what Jesus said or not> IMO

    Common sense should tell you that,  right?

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    August 29, 2021 at 7:47 am#873173
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: On day 1, God created the earth with the sole intent that it would be inhabited by his crowning jewel of creation: mankind. On day 4, God created the sun as one of many lights that He placed in the firmament.

    Proclaimer:  There are two options that you are not considering. Planets wander through their galaxies and then get caught up in gravitational fields. This means our planet could have been void and then was caught in the solar system and bathed in natural light and heat.

    1.  What verifiable empirical scientific evidence do you offer us that there exist such things as “galaxies”, “planets”, “solar systems” and “gravitational fields”?

    2.  Are you saying that the solar system was created first, and then at a later date the earth became a part of it and therefore a recipient of light and heat provided by the sun – which was apparently already in existence as the center of this solar system?  If so, test the spirits who are giving you this theory against the scriptures, which say God created the sun as a light 4 days AFTER He created the earth.

    Proclaimer:  Secondly, the earth had a thick atmosphere from super eruptions etc. The planet settled down and the lights appeared in the firmanent / the sky above us.

    So then God created the earth to be inhabited by men, but gave it an “atmosphere” that we couldn’t even see through, let alone breathe?  Now you’re just bringing your other belief from godless men into it – which is once again clearly contradicted by scripture.  Scripture tells us that God created the earth on day 1, the sun on day 4, and man on day 6.  Not “billions of years of super eruptions” and a “settling down so that lights could eventually be seen”… but a total of 6 24 hour days from the creation of the earth to the creation of the first man who dwelled here.

    As a side note, your phrase “the firmament / the sky above us” is flawed, since the Hebrew word translated as “firmament” refers to a very hard substance.  It is likened to crystal and also to polished bronze in the scriptures.  The firmament is NOT the sky.

    Proclaimer:  Then God said, “Let lights appear in the sky to separate the day from the night. Let them be signs to mark the seasons, days, and years.

    No… it’s “Let there BE lights in the FIRMAMENT…”  The words are “hayah” (to become/to come into being) and “raqiya” (1: extended solid surface…  1b: firmament…  1b1: considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above).

    So lose your “appear in the sky” phrase, because it is erroneous and not what the Hebrew words mean – nor what the Hebrews considered the firmament to be.  And the correct reading of these Hebrew words eliminates both of your earlier explanations about lights (“planets”) that may have existed before the earth did, but we just couldn’t see them from the earth.  These lights in the firmament were CREATED 4 days AFTER the earth was.

    Proclaimer:  Your argument that science contradicts scripture is invalid.

    Science DOESN’T contradict scripture, nor have I ever said that it does.  Real science actually supports and confirms the scriptures.  But real science has no relation to the imaginary stories by godless men that you believe in.

    Proclaimer:  Science is simply knowledge.

    Close, but science is actually the PURSUIT of knowledge.  There is no such thing as “settled science” – as any REAL scientist will tell you.  It is an ongoing quest for ever greater knowledge about our world and the creatures that live in it.  Scientific “facts” change all the time as new data is discovered.  And, most importantly, never forget that data is simply data.  It is flawed and fallen men who INTERPRET that data – and every data point has many different interpretations from many different men.

    Proclaimer:  Granted that not all science is truth, but neither does science and scripture conflict if both are true.  And in this case, there is no conflict at all.

    Like I said, real science never contradicts scripture.  That being said, scripture says the sun was created 4 days after the earth was created.  Real scientific investigation has no possible way to even debate such a thing, let alone refute it.  But the godless science falsely so-called in which you believe has claimed that there IS a conflict here between scripture and “science”, since the sun existed before the earth.  Sadly, you believe the godless science falsely so-called OVER what God Himself told us on the matter.

    Proclaimer:  It is an unnecessary distraction and only makes you look foolish.

    Adam believes in God the Father, but not that Jesus was God’s Son who was sent down from heaven to dwell on the earth.  To him, our claims about Jesus make us look foolish.  But as we know, our claims only look foolish to those whose eyes aren’t yet opened to the truth.  And we also know that if we don’t let up, there is a chance that we might help to open some closed eyes.

    You believe in God, but not in the scriptures in which God described the world He created for us.  To you, my claim that the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth from one end of the heaven to the other makes me look foolish.  But I know that my (and David’s) claim only looks foolish to those whose eyes aren’t yet opened to the truth.  And I also know that if I don’t let up, there is a chance that I might help to open some closed eyes.

    Proclaimer:  But the worse part is this.  If people believe your argument, then they will simply draw the conclusion that scripture is a myth.

    So then will you stop talking about the scriptural truth of Jesus because certain people like Adam will draw the conclusion that the NT is a myth – which might lead them into concluding that the entire Bible is a myth?

    You really need to check yourself here, Proclaimer.  You are basically warning me that if I continue to proclaim things that are directly written in the scriptures themselves, I might cause someone to consider the Bible as mythology.  But what then is my other option?  To boldly claim that God is real, but the things He Himself told us in scripture about the world He created are false?  Shall I make up lame excuses for the ignorance of God and His servants who recorded the scriptures, saying that they didn’t understand how the world really is – just so I can promote the scientifically UNPROVEN ideas of godless men instead?  Never!

    Did you know that many atheists would be willing to accept that there is A god who created all things – but turn from the Judeo-Christian faith because the idea of a god whose son is the very god he is the son of is absurdity to them?

    How then do you think these observant atheists would react when you tell them that the Bible is the truth – but sometimes God and His authors made mistakes when describing the world in which we all live?

    So it is YOU, not me, who leads people from God by trying to make excuses for why the Bible is “wrong” about the nature of our world.  And like I said, the saddest part is that you don’t do it based on any solid actual evidence – but simply on the unverifiable STORIES that men who DON’T believe in God have told you about our world.

    Proclaimer:  It’s sad that you misrepresent scripture like this.

    Please list for me one thing that I’ve said that misrepresents scripture.  THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO YOU.  YOU CAN OVERLOOK THE REST OF THIS POST, BUT I DEMAND THAT YOU LIST A SINGLE DISAGREEMENT WE HAVE ABOUT OUR WORLD IN WHICH I’M THE ONE WHO IS MISREPRESENTING SCRIPTURE.

    Proclaimer:  I hope that you do not inflict that on anyone as every soul is precious and your stubbornness here seems to be very selfish IMO. Why introduce a stumbling block?

    Please go read those very words to yourself in the mirror… many times over and over.  The Trinitarians introduced a stumbling block by promoting absurdities that directly contradict scripture.  And YOU introduce a stumbling block when you profess that the scriptures are the truth…  except for this part about the sun, and that part about the pillars, and this other part about the moon being a light in the firmament, etc.

    August 29, 2021 at 8:09 am#873174
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Mike. There is a difference between being created and being begotten. Creation is that which comes through the Word of God. That exempts the Word of God.

    There is no difference – especially when the Hebrew word often translated as “begotten” actually just means “brought forth into existence”.

    Also consider that the act of begetting offspring is call procreating.

    And finally, consider that Col 1:15 calls Jesus the firstborn of every creature, Prov 8:22 teaches us that he was created as the first of God’s works, and Rev 3:14 tells us that he is the beginning of the creation by God.

    So yes, Jesus was the first thing God ever CREATED.  Then God created other spirit sons through Jesus.  Then God created our physical earth and the flesh creatures who dwell on it.

    Jesus is called God’s only-begotten son in a poetic sense because as the first creation of God, Jesus is special and set aside from all the rest.  Of course we know the word “begotten” in this case isn’t literal because we know that God the Father didn’t have sex with God the Mother to produce Jesus.

    But no, there is no significant difference.  Begotten is just a way to distinguish Jesus as greater than all the spirit sons of God who came later.

     

    August 29, 2021 at 8:18 am#873175
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Is that relevant to John 1:1?

    Perhaps there is a thread called “The Bible” or something.  I simply don’t have the time to be invested in a dozen different threads on a bunch of different subjects… especially when they all relate to the truth of scripture in one way or another.  This is, after all, a Bible discussion forum.

    Let me know if there is such a thread on HN, and if people don’t like me deviating from John 1:1, I will leave this thread and go to that one, where I can freely discuss ANYTHING relating to God, Jesus, Jews, the Bible, etc.

    Thanks.

    August 29, 2021 at 9:16 am#873177
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  who is the beginning (arché) of the creation of God: 
    STRONG’S CONCORDANCE
    arché: beginning, origin
    ME: THUS THE PHRASE FOUND IN 3:14 MEANS THAT JESUS WAS THE
    “FIRST CAUSE”, THE “ORIGIN”, OF CREATION,
    not its first production. 

    1. The Greek word has as it’s first definition, “beginning”, as you’ve pointed out.  In the NT, it has the meaning “beginning” 75% of the time.  In all of John’s writings, it has the meaning “beginning”, including this other instance in Rev…

    Revelation 22:13… I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

    2.  The meaning “beginning” is supported by Col 1:15 (the firstborn of every creature), Prov 8:22 (God created me as the first of His works), and Micah 5:2 (his origin is from ancient times).  It is also attested by every time he is called the Son of God, since we all know that sons come after fathers, and are created by fathers.

    3.  If Rev 3:14 says Jesus is the “first cause” of God’s creation, it means that God isn’t the first cause of His own creation… which is absurd.  It becomes even more absurd to think that Jesus would call himself “the creator of the creation by God”.  Think about it… “I am the creator of God’s creation!”  Laughable.

    Of course you’ll say that’s because Jesus IS God.  But if Jesus was “God”, then why would Revelation begin like this…

    Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

    Why would “God” give a revelation about coming events to “God”?  Wouldn’t “God” already know about these things?

    Carmel, your doctrine requires people to suspend their God-given common sense and believe absurd things… such as Jesus’ God being a servant of Jesus.  Absolute nonsense.

    August 29, 2021 at 4:33 pm#873179
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said: Of course we know the word “begotten” in this case isn’t literal because we know that God the Father didn’t have sex with God the Mother to produce Jesus.

    Of course there is asexual reproduction which wouldn’t require a partner. I believe it is entirely possible for the eternal One to asexually reproduce and “literally” beget a son of His own kind. That would truly be a literal son of God in the highest sense, born not created, of the same eternal essence as the Father.

    August 29, 2021 at 6:46 pm#873181
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I agree LU.

    The Word was begotten and with God and came from his nature so was divine.

    Then the Word became flesh…

    August 29, 2021 at 6:52 pm#873182
    Berean
    Participant

    AMEN LU,

    For GOD NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE !!!

     

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