Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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August 23, 2021 at 5:31 am#873003
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,
DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ACCORDING TO HEBREWS EXCEPT THE SON OF GOD?
I don’t. Do you know someone who IS the very entity that he is the son OF?
August 23, 2021 at 5:44 am#873004
Berean
Participant
Mike
WHAT THE FATHER IS, IN THE BIGINNING
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WAS ALSO
WHEN WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THIS VERY SIMPLE THING?
August 23, 2021 at 5:50 am#873005
mikeboll64
Blocked
Carmel: WHEN WE SAY:
GOD IS BIGGER THAN THE SON…
WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
SINCE WE DON’T KNOW WHAT GOD IS!
This is a tactic that has been used by Trinitarians for centuries. They fully understand that the Bible doesn’t support their doctrine, and so they have no choice but to claim that God is a Trinity – but it’s beyond the understanding of humans.
The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”
Monsignor Eugene Clark says: “God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.”
Cardinal John O’Connor states: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”
And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”
Lame. The Bible was written and preserved for the benefit of humans – not angels. It is worthless if is “beyond human reason”.
Hey Carmel, when are you going to answer my questions?
1. Is it scriptural that God did signs and wonders through His servants Moses, Joshua, Elijah, etc?
2. Is it scriptural that God did signs and wonders through His holy servant Jesus?
3. Is it scriptural that God can do even greater signs and wonders through any of us if He chooses to?
August 23, 2021 at 5:55 am#873006
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Notice the definite article where Thomas says “the Lord of me and the God of me” in the interlinear below. He is referring to Jesus, btw.
2 Cor 4:4… The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers…
Notice the definite article here. He is referring to Satan btw.
August 23, 2021 at 6:18 am#873007
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Okay Carmel, I just asked Jesus in his own name if he is God – or the holy servant of God. Jesus told me to read the scriptures, where it’s abundantly clear that he can’t very well BE his and our God if he is the son, servant, prophet, spokesman, priest, messiah, holy one, angel, first creation, and sacrificial lamb OF his and our God.

Carmel: YOU SIMPLY ASKED THE WRONG JESUS…
Priceless! So you expect us to believe you when you say your teaching comes from Jesus himself, but if I make the same claim, I asked the wrong Jesus? 😂😅🤣
I’ll say again, we are to test the spirits.. and the ONLY thing we have to test them against is the Holy Scriptures. You teach doctrines that contradict those scriptures. I proclaim exactly what those scriptures teach. That is why we are always in disagreement.
August 23, 2021 at 6:30 am#873008
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Interesting that Adam’s post does not mention the term “redemption” or “redeem” or “firstborn” yet to celebrate the Passover Moses writes this:
12you shall devote to the LORD every firstborn of a womb… every firstborn among your sons you shall redeem. 14And it shall be when your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is this?’ then you shall say to him, ‘With a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery… Therefore, I sacrifice to the LORD the males, every firstborn of a womb, but every firstborn of my sons I redeem.’
👍👍👍

August 23, 2021 at 6:33 am#873009
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: I think that Thomas referring to Jesus as the God of himself and the Lord of himself agrees perfectly with what the Father calls the Son in Hebrews 1, YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands… The Son with a Father and their Spirit is a package deal.
And just that fast, immediately back to posting nonsense. 😕
August 23, 2021 at 7:11 am#873010
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: For Sis Kathi….
Understanding Hebrews 1:10-12 (Matthew Janzen, Revised 2015)…
That was a very good read, Adam… thanks.
1. I really liked the suggestion of just using parentheses around 10-12.
2. I’m happy that Kathi now knows the quote came from the LXX – which didn’t use the tetragrammaton “YHWH”. This means that even if she insists that the writer was attributing the creation to Jesus, he wasn’t attributing the name YHWH to him.
3. The author you quoted didn’t even have to go the next chapter to show that the writer of Hebrews knew that the God of Jesus was the one who created the world, since it is already right there in chapter 1…
Hebrews 1:2… But in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the world.
It stands to reason that if Jesus is the one through whom “HE” made the world, then Jesus can’t possibly be the “HE” who actually did make the world. (And the “HE” is identified in the previous verse as “God”.)
So thanks again for posting that. Here is the passage as it should be…
Heb 1:5-14 For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?
Or again: “I will be His Father, and he will be My Son”?
And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.” But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you above your companions with the oil of joy.”
(And in the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed; but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.)
Yet to which of the angels did God ever say: “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”?
(Are they all not ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?)
Berean: It’s purely Christian interpretation. I thought it may be useful to you.
Translation for Kathi: I hope that helps. 😉
August 23, 2021 at 7:33 am#873011
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: If you believe God the Father called Jesus a God, then God the Father would be contradicting his very own words… BESIDES ME, THERE IS “NO” GOD.
1 Kings 11:33… I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molek the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in obedience to me, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my decrees and laws as David, Solomon’s father, did.
Gene, this is YHWH talking about three other gods besides Himself. Not only that, but He calls them all by the plural “elohim” – which the Trinitarians falsely say applies only to YHWH because He is a “Trinity Godhead”.
So two birds with one stone. 😎
Gene, YHWH is the god of gods, and therefore cannot literally be the only god. And the fact that He Himself calls others gods MANY times in scripture proves that the verses you continually quote are emphatic statements, meant to convey that YHWH is the greatest god – not literally the only one.
It’s like saying that Tom Brady was the only real quarterback the New England Patriots ever had. It is an emphatic statement meaning that Brady was by far the greatest, but is not meant to be taken literally, as if he is the only QB the Patriots ever had in their entire history as an NFL team.
August 23, 2021 at 7:42 am#873012
Proclaimer
Participant
Some good replies from this page Mike. Totally agree.
August 23, 2021 at 7:46 am#873013
Berean
Participant
Mike
Gene, YHWH is the god of gods, and therefore cannot literally be the only god.
Me
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This is the only TRUE GOD that is important to consider along with the Lord Jesus Christ.
August 23, 2021 at 7:50 am#873014
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: I am only investigating the so called greater claims of the NT and Christianity by comparing them with their original source the Hebrew scriptures.
I’m curious to how you believe the worldwide and lasting phenomenon of Jesus came to be.
1. A unknown craftsman from Bethlehem turns 30 and starts going around telling people he is the son of God sent down from heaven.
2. A small group of people who know he’s lying make up false stories about him doing miracles that he never actually did.
3. More and more people take the word of this small group without seeing the miracles themselves, and remain faithful to the testimony of these conmen to the point that they are tortured and killed for their beliefs.
4. Eventually, virtually every living soul in the entire world knows about this Jesus, and billions of them over the years are led to God Almighty through him.
That’s how I’m imagining your belief in my own mind. Please clarify how you believe Jesus came to be a worldwide phenomenon by falsely claiming to be the awaited messiah of the Jews.
August 23, 2021 at 7:50 am#873015
Proclaimer
Participant
Does God have essence or IS God essence? Can you answer that?
God shares his divine nature with his Sons, so divinity doesn’t make you or anyone God himself.
Likewise, He is the Father of spirits, thus being a spirit doesn’t make you God either.
God is God because he is eternal and all things came from him. And in the context of sons, God is the Father of them.
Jesus Christ on the otherhand is the Son of God. The firstborn. The image of the invisible God.
Let’s not rob God by making others equal to him. Let’s not rob the Son of his uniqueness and first place among God’s sons and his kingdom.
August 23, 2021 at 7:58 am#873016
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: Hi brother Gene, sorry I am not for Jesus to be a sacrificial Lamb as God never accepted Human sacrifice on the alter for redemption of sins. In fact it was an abomination to Yahweh.
Scripturally speaking, Yahweh expected every firstborn male human to be sacrificed to Him, but allowed the Israelites to redeem their own children by sacrificing a lamb in their stead.
Also, Yahweh asked Abram to sacrifice his son – but then had an angel stop him before it happened. But the fact that Abram was willing to do it for Yahweh was counted as faithfulness, and God proceeded to build a nation for Himself out of that one man because he was willing to sacrifice his very own son.
In reality, it was a foreshadowing of how God was going to sacrifice His own son.
August 23, 2021 at 8:04 am#873017
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.
Would you consider it equally fair for an atheist to tell you that once you convince every single Jew on earth to agree with you on every single point of the OT, they will consider your convictions reasonable and based on truth?

August 23, 2021 at 8:15 am#873018
carmel
Participant
Hi Mike,
YOU: You teach doctrines that contradict those scriptures.
ME: Be specific, please!
Here is MY JESUS!
WHOM SCRIPTURES PROCLAIM HIM

GODMAN:
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son.
This is the true God and life eternal.
GOD IN FLESH:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally;
GOD OF ALL FLESH:
Jeremiah 32:27 Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall anything be hard for me?
Isaiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor,
God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.
John20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me,
for I am not yet ASCENDED TO (THE GLORY OF) my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:
I ASCEND TO (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

John 1:1, In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men; should live soberly, and justly, and godly in this world, 13Looking for the blessed hope and coming of
the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,

John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him:
“My Lord and my God”

Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh,
who is over all things, God blessed forever. Amen.

Timothy 3:16 And evidently great is the mystery of godliness,
which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made;
his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable. 21Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. 23And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man,
Ephesians 4:4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ
August 23, 2021 at 8:22 am#873019
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike……The number one problem here is that you and others do not understand WHAT THE WORD GOD MEANS, . “THE WORD GOD IS NEVER A REAL PERSON, It “only” means THE , “RELATIONSHIP” YOU HAVE, with something, “ANYTHING” can be Your GOD. IT DOSENT EVEN HAVE TO BE ALIVE. It could even be a rock , your money, what ever it doesn’t matter what it is, as long as it fits this .
“THE “POWER” YOU LEAN ON “FOR SUPPORT AND STRENGTH”, THAT IS “YOUR” GOD.
That is why we speak of the “GOD “OF” THIS OR THAT. GOD is not a person, it’s the type of relationship you have with ANYTHING that exist.
Therefore it says, ” But unto “us” there is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between GOD and men, “THE “MAN” Jesus Christ. Not the God Jesus Christ, but the “MAN” Jesus Christ.
Jesus said clearly, this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD.
You either believe it or not, The “us” there is the true believers, I and all true believers, “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD and there is “NO” other God to us.
The word GOD has been miss applied , because it describes a “RELATIONSHIP” ANYTHING.
When Jesus said , ‘it says you are God’s , that was meant in a possessive sense , not a real God being sense.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene

August 23, 2021 at 8:31 am#873020
Proclaimer
Participant
Adam: First you convince your Christian brothers and sisters here, on your so called convictions. Then I will understand your convictions are reasonable and based on truth.
You will never arrive at the truth with such demands.
Imagine if you ask the same question of the Pharisees and teachers of the law or scientists.
Personally I find Mike to be pretty spot on with his teachings on the scriptures. But many come here to debate for a reason. Because they hold some pretty far out views that are not that common out there in the churches. If we look at the bigger picture, there is the truth, man-made tradition, and cults. This is no surprise. Where ever there is truth, there is distraction and opposition.
I just wish Mike would give up on science. I do not think that is his calling.
August 23, 2021 at 8:33 am#873021
Proclaimer
Participant
Gene, much of what you say in your last post is correct IMO. But your application of it misses the mark.
August 23, 2021 at 8:49 am#873022
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: SINCE GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, WHY THEN MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE WHEN HE CAN EVERYTHING.
THIS THESIS DOESN’T STAND UP … (that’s my opinion)
THEN IN THE CASE ( This is what I believe) OR GOD HAS CREATED EVERYTHING BY HIS OMNIPOTENT WORKER, WHY WOULD HE CHOOSE TO ACT SO ????
God often does things through intermediaries that He could do by Himself. He created a nation for Himself through Abraham – even though He could create children for Abraham from stones if He wanted to. He sent an angel to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians once – even though He could have done that Himself. He sends prophets to speak His words to the people – even though He could just speak His own words from heaven like He did once while the Israelites were in the wilderness.
So I don’t know the answer to your question about why God would choose to do things this way. I only know that according to scripture, God usually chooses to act through intermediaries.
Berean: MY ANSWER IS THAT GOD NEEDS A SON (OMNIPOTENT) BUT NOT THAT, IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS PURPOSES IN CASE HIS FREE WILL CREATURES WOULD COME TO REBELL AGAINST HIS GOVERNMENT.
THEREFORE THE SON TAKEN CARE OF EVERYTHING ( in agreement with his father)
CREATION
REDEMPTION
THE JUGEMENT
I wouldn’t say that God needs someone else in the position you describe – but it’s scriptural that God has someone in that position… His firstborn Son.
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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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