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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 22, 2021 at 10:40 am#872980
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: ADAM……I also believe that the biggest myth of all,  is thinking Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth.

    ME: Gene I don’t think whether Jesus pre-existed or not 

    I AM CONVINCED THAT HE PRE-EXISTED!

    NOT ONLY HIM BUT ALL HUMANS DID AS SPIRITS.

    YOU: Jesus never address himself as having an actual personal past relationship with God,

    Gene, you not only surprise me but disappoint me, as Jesus made it emphatically clear Himself that He had a past relationship with God! Read:

    John 17 :5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had, before the world was,

    with thee.

    John3:12 If I have spoken to you earthly things, and you believe not;

    how will you believe,

    if I shall speak to you heavenly things? 

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE IT CERTAIN THAT HE PRE-EXISTED AND KNOWS ALL ABOUT HEAVENLY THINGS, OBVIOUS A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. AGAIN ASSERTED HEREUNDER:

    13And no man hath ascended into heaven, ( NOT EVEN ELIAH, UNLESS ELIAH, IN A PARTICULAR WAY, IS ALSO JESUS EMBODIED IN ELIAH, PRE-EXISTED )

    but he that descended from heaven,

    ISN’T IT ENOUGH THE ABOVE CONFIRMATION THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED IN HEAVEN WITH A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. READ:

    the Son of man who is in heaven. 

    GENE IN THE ABOVE JESUS CONFIRMED THAT WHILE HE  WAS ON EARTH,

    HE WAS ALSO IN HEAVEN WITH A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. 

    John 14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

    ETERNALLY!

    John 10:30I and the Father are one!

    ETERNALLY!

    Cont. 

    John3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;

    that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH TO YOU THE ABOVE THAT JESUS HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD?

    17For God sent not his Son into the world,

    to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.

    ISN’T IT CLEAR ENOUGH TO YOU THE ABOVE THAT JESUS HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD?

    18He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    19And this is the judgment:

    because the light ( FROM THE LIGHT, GOD)  is come into the world,

    and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

    WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH THAT JESUS, NOT ONLY HAD A PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD BUT THE SAME SUBSTANCE AND ONENESS WITH GOD, WHO IS THE LIGHT! READ MORE TRUTH:

    John 12:44But Jesus cried, and said:

    He that believeth in ME, doth not believe in ME, but in him(GOD)that sent me. 

    45And he that seeth ME, seeth him (GOD)that sent me.

     46I have come as LIGHT (FROM LIGHT, GOD) into the world;

    that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 

    MORE TRUTH BY JESUS’ OWN WORDS:

    John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 

    John17:24 Father, I will that where I am,

    Gene, AGAIN, JESUS ASSERTS HIS ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD!

    they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which

    thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

    Gene, the above is IN THE  PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! The present perfect is used to communicate occurrences or experiences either completed or not completed in

    the past with relation to the present.

    THIS CONFIRMS THAT JESUS HIMSELF DECLARED HIS PAST RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER!

    Gene, PLEASE NOT JUST READ SCRIPTURE, BUT 

    ACCEPTS IS CLEAR TRUTH OF

    JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!

    YOU;  he  always used present tense language,  

    ME: NO Gene, JESUS USED A IN THE ABOVE,

    PRESENT PERFECT TENSE! 

     HE IS GOD,

    AND GOD IS ALWAYS PERFECT AND PRESENT!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 22, 2021 at 10:40 am#872981
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Bible also says that Satan is theos…

    2 Cor 4:4… The god [THEOS] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Satan is also one of God’s sons…

    Job 1:6… Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    So if Satan is both theos and God’s son, then is Satan “from eternity” too? Is Satan “omnipotent” too?

    Well put Mike.

    August 22, 2021 at 10:54 am#872982
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Adam: Yes he will not be an old man as you rightly pointed out but he will certainly be a warrior prince. It will be an end time Messianic kingdom where the Israelites will live there forever with their children and grandchildren and David will be their prince forever. I think this is possible with resurrection beliefs in the Hebrew religion. It may even be possible that the original David himself will be the Prince as mentioned in Ezek 37:25 as there will be resurrection of the dead in future.

    Adam, God is eternal and men always underestimate him. When God makes a plan, it is not as limited as you imagine. Look at the universe.

    Men once thought the earth was flat and the stars were lights in a solid dome. Then we realised we were one planet in a solar system with other planets. Then our star turned out to be one of many with the stars being other suns and likely having their own system of worlds. Then we found out that one of the stars we can see with the naked eye was another whole galaxy like ours and what we use to call the universe turned out to be just one galaxy among countless others. Today, we wonder if there are other universes or galaxies beyond the horizon of what we can see.

    In one of these worlds, a race called humans fell into sin. The world falls and innocent children are born into a sinful world. Does God leave it at that and say, ‘too bad’? No, he is love and works out a plan to bring those in that world back to perfection. In fact he foresaw this and already had the plan worked out before the universe was even created. Of course, with free will, it is a no-brainer that a world would eventually choose sin and its lessons learned eventually by all other sons of God.

    So this eternal God sends prophets to reveal his plan. He starts with prophecies to men and a law that will not only help men to live longer, but will have the required intent of revealing our own sin. Otherwise we would just think it normal with nothing to compare our lowly existence to.

    Then this eternal God sends his firstborn, the most precious Son to die as the Lamb of God. Do we have understanding of what this means. Yes, because of the sacrificial system in the Old Testament was there to give us that understanding. Sin brings death, so death satisfies teh fruit of sin.

    Once the saviour’s work is complete, God then allows time for men to be saved through the gospel / church age. A message that instantly saves or condemns the hearers rather than being weighed in the balance as it was beforehand and still is for those who have not heard the greater light.

    Can you not see that God has been holding our hand and taking us through his plan from day one. Only the blind cannot see and people are blind because they choose to be.

    Adam, your vision for God is stuck at stage 1 and I wonder if you lived back then if you would reject that stage. The plan has progressed much since then of course and you have been left behind my friend. You underestimate the work and will of God. He doesn’t do things in half measures. The eternal God goes above and beyond our expectations.

    But as it is written: “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.”

    I myself have had a taste of the Kingdom. It is beyond any person’s wildest dreams. It would be  a shame if you missed out on such a great and generous gift.

    August 22, 2021 at 1:55 pm#872984
    Lightenup
    Participant

    God is eternal, was God always a father?

    If so, then God always had a son.

    If not, then is it remotely possible that God asexually reproduced?

    If God asexually reproduced, is it possible that God took from Himself essence that always was in Himself and then gave it to become another one just like Himself?

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    Seems reasonable.

    If the two are same in essence, then what one is, the other is likewise regarding the type of being.

    If one is God in type, the other is God in type. The only difference is one fathered the other.

    So, there you have two persons who are both God in type and one is the father of the other who eventually was His first and only to be begotten. Before the Son was the first to be begotten, He was the one yet to be begotten.

    That answers how the Son existed before He became the first, the first to be begotten.

    August 22, 2021 at 2:14 pm#872985
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    See it is true. The Trinity / Binity treat God as a substance or essense.

    But God is a person / identity.

    As I said earlier, “God has divine nature, but many teach divine nature has God” and you have proved my point.

    The Father is God.

    The Son is a son of God.

    The Spirit is the Spirit of God.

    Because you put doctrines ahead of scripture, you will remain confused and always wrestling with contradictions.

    August 22, 2021 at 2:15 pm#872986
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If so, then the essence in God is the same in age as the essence in His Son.

    Further, if we are born from above and participate in divine nature, then we too are eternal and as old ass God?

    See how easy it is to debunk false teaching?

    August 22, 2021 at 2:24 pm#872987
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Does God have essence or IS God essence?  Can you answer that?

    Or maybe you think that God does not have essence. It would be impossible for the Son to be the exact representation of the Father’s essence if He did not have any essence?

    Undebunked.

     

    August 22, 2021 at 3:55 pm#872989
    gadam123
    Participant

    Where can I read about resurrection in the OT?

    Hi Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. The concept of (individual) resurrection was not developed in the Torah but it is visible in the Tanakh especially in the later books like Daniel. Here are few indirect and direct verses on resurrection from the Hebrew Bible;

    Job 19:

    25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
    and that at the last he will stand upon the earth;
    26 and after my skin has been thus destroyed,
    then in my flesh I shall see God,

    Isaiah 26:19

    Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
    O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
    For your dew is a radiant dew,
    and the earth will give birth to those long dead

    Daniel 12:2

    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth[a] shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    National resurrection of Israel but it may be meant for future revival of its kingdom

    Ezekiel 37:

    9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath:[c] Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath,[d] and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.” 10 I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood on their feet, a vast multitude.

    13 And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, and bring you up from your graves, O my people. 14 I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you on your own soil; then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken and will act, says the Lord.”

     

    August 22, 2021 at 5:15 pm#872990
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Another point to consider ,   Was Jesus dealing with the salvation of Carmel nation , or with eternal salvation of all human beings? ,  the Salvation Of Jesus was for eternal life,  the Jew’s salvation looks to their physical salvation as a nation. Big difference in what kind of salvation we’re talking about, The Jews rejected their eternal salvation, when they rejected God the Fathers sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus Christ,  but some did accept it and even to this day some are,  but the rest will have their kingdom  restores to them and will have to continue their sacrifices for their sins as before. Because they missed out on their “eternal” salvation, God offered them,  please don’t miss out on that salvation brother.  Remember all the prophets God sent to them, and how they mistreated them and did not believe them,  Just as they did  not believe in Jesus either and even murdered him.  Be careful and not miss out on your calling brother.

    Your confusing two different events,  one physical,  and the other Spiritual,  which the Physically minded  have no part of.

    Hi brother Gene, I could not follow what you are talking about in the above post of yours. What is Eternal salvation? Is it mentioned in the Bible?

    I think you are relying on the texts of the NT written by the Hellenistic non-eye witness authors. Most of this material is polemic in nature towards the Jews of their time. Please don’t mistake me as this is clearly  visible in the most of the texts of the NT.

    The concept of heaven, hell and eternal life are all developed ideas in the NT. The Hebrew Bible mostly  talks about the present life than the life after death. The rewards and punishments are for this life than for the so called future life after death. Even the so called New Heaven and New Earth is for this world only and not  for any mythical eternal life. Please read Isaiah 65:

    17 For I am about to create new heavens
    and a new earth;
    the former things shall not be remembered
    or come to mind.
    18 But be glad and rejoice forever
    in what I am creating;
    for I am about to create Jerusalem as a joy,
    and its people as a delight.
    19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
    and delight in my people;
    no more shall the sound of weeping be heard in it,
    or the cry of distress.
    20 No more shall there be in it
        an infant that lives but a few days,
        or an old person who does not live out a lifetime;
    for one who dies at a hundred years will be considered a youth,
        and one who falls short of a hundred will be considered accursed.
    21 They shall build houses and inhabit them;
    they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 They shall not build and another inhabit;
    they shall not plant and another eat;
    for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
        and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
    23 They shall not labor in vain,
    or bear children for calamity;[e]
    for they shall be offspring blessed by the Lord—
    and their descendants as well.
    24 Before they call I will answer,
    while they are yet speaking I will hear.
    25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together,
    the lion shall eat straw like the ox;
    but the serpent—its food shall be dust!
    They shall not hurt or destroy
    on all my holy mountain,
    says the Lord.

    So where does these Christian concepts of the so called mythical eternal life or eternal salvation stand? These strange ideas of the NT writers no where visible in the Hebrew Bible.

    Please read the NT with reference to its primary source the Hebrew Bible. You will find the deviations.

    August 22, 2021 at 6:38 pm#872992
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam, your vision for God is stuck at stage 1 and I wonder if you lived back then if you would reject that stage. The plan has progressed much since then of course and you have been left behind my friend. You underestimate the work and will of God. He doesn’t do things in half measures. The eternal God goes above and beyond our expectations.

    Hi Proclaimer, thank you so much for your repeated attempts to convince me on the so called new revelations of the NT writers. I may be struck at stage 1 as per your assessment. But I tell you that I had already gone through all those so called Christian phases of born again, filled with Spirt, following the table manners etc. I do still believe that the these new revelations are true and there will be eternal life for the souls.

    I am sorry to say that now I am struck at investigating these new revelations with reference to their original source the Hebrew scriptures. I find lot of holes in those new revelations. The NT tried to justify its claims on Messiahship of Jesus and its religion purely on the Hebrew scriptures by stating “according to scriptures”. So I am more interested to find this truth behind this statement. This is the reason why I bring lot of critical arguments on this Forum when compared to others.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    August 22, 2021 at 6:52 pm#872993
    Berean
    Participant

    The Bible also says that Satan is theos…

    Mike

    Yes but Stan does not have IN HIM THE ETERNAL POWER TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE, HE IS A DEPENDENT CREATURE ON GOD FOR HIS SURVIVAL.

    IN THE BIGINNING, CHRIST HIM WAS GOD OF THE SAME SUBSTANCE OF GOD THE FATHER, AND IN HIMSELF WAS THE ETERNAL POWER THAT ALLOWS HIM TO CREATE AND SUSTAIN THE UNIVERSE …

    HEBREWS 1  ABOUT JESUS
    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Colossians 1 ABOUT JESUS
    …. all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST. 

    Amen!

    August 22, 2021 at 7:07 pm#872994
    Berean
    Participant

    HI LU

    Does God have essence or IS God essence?  Can you answer that?

    Or maybe you think that God does not have essence. It would be impossible for the Son to be the exact representation of the Father’s essence if He did not have any essence?

    Undebunked.

     

     

    AMEN LU

    HEBREWS 1: 3 AFFIRMS THIS.

    God bless

     

    August 22, 2021 at 7:12 pm#872995
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    See it is true. The Trinity / Binity treat God as a substance or essense.

    But God is a person / identity. 

     

    Me

    Precisely, because God is a person, HE HAS A SUBSTANCE THAT IS OWN TO HIM …
    AND THE SON IS THE PERFECT REFLECTION OF THE PERSON OF THE FATHER ACCORDING TO HEBREWS 1: 3

    August 22, 2021 at 10:13 pm#872996
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Eve is adam / man (mankind).

    Eve is not The Adam.

    The Word was divine / theos.

    The Word is not The God / The Theos.

    Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself just as you are not your flesh.

    Your nature is flesh, God’s nature is divine. His essence is spirit.

    If divinity is the person of God, then yes the Word is God himself would be God and so are those who participate in that nature. But that is not how it works.

    Once again. Confusion over nature vs identity.

    The Trinity Doctrine exists because of this confusion.

    August 23, 2021 at 2:02 am#872997
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu…….Jesus said the words he was telling us were,  “SPIRIT” ,  Jesus said God “IS” a SPIRIT”  ,  that is his essence,  and GOD the father can by, that essence, be in us “all”    “That God may be in “all” and through “all”.   God’s essence is not limited to just three things, it’s “IN” EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE IN IT.  God himself  “IS” the “Tree of life”  to me. 

    JESUS said that God the father was “IN” HIM, he never said he was God the father that was “IN” him, now did he? Just like the food that goes “in” you, it’s not you, right? , but it nourishes you, so it is with the Spirit of God,  

    When we have received the Holy Spirit “IN” us,  We are Son of the living God , exactly as Jesus was baptized,  and received into him , that same Holy Spirit and became , born again,  as a son of God.  The exact same thing applies to us also.  Scripture tells us that “Jesus is the first born of “MANY” BROTHERS”.

    This whole idea of separating Jesus’ identity from the rest of mankind is, the work of Satan himself,  because he doesn’t want you to understand that you potential is “exactly” the same as Jesus was and is. “The DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY ”  is beyond a doubt the biggest “LIE” ever taught in Christianity 

    You really need to truly understand that LU,  and all the rest here also.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    August 23, 2021 at 2:33 am#872998
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……what I was trying to say is that there are two different ways people see things , one is from a Carmel or worldly ways , the other are from a Spiritual way,  the Carmel focuses on this world and how we physically do thing and see thing, the Spiritual sees thing differently.  The Jew’s messiah to them is only a carnal ruler that just delivers them  and reestablishes them. They see things through the eyes of carnal and self interests , which excludes most others but them,  but Jesus, the true Messiah of all of man kind , taught us to see thing through Spiritual eyes, be cause we see all people,  as God’s children,  and our lord Jesus as the Messiah of all people on this earth.
    They focus on self Deliverance , we focus on world deliverance , of all Nations and peoples ,  they will have their ‘physical” deliverance , but will not be ruling the world with the , True Messiah Jesus Christ, and  they who believe in Christ Jesus will rule with him, over them all, in the world ruling Kingdom of God.

    Adam,  there is a difference between the Old Testament and the NEW.  The old in most cases deals with the carnal thing , the new with the Spiritual things of God. IMO

    Peace and love to you and your Adam……….gene

    August 23, 2021 at 3:16 am#872999
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself just as you are not your flesh.

    Proclaimer

    “Nature or essence is not the identity or person himself ”

    🤭

    👇

    … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON (hupostasis), …..

    5287

    upostasiV
    hupostasis
    hoop-bone’-heap-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a placing under (support), that is to say (in the figurative sense) concretely, ESSENCE, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – trust, confident, PERSON, SUBSTANCE.

    FROM this : ESSENCE = PERSON = SUBSTANCE

    YES ?

    August 23, 2021 at 3:57 am#873000
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam,  there is a difference between the Old Testament and the NEW.  The old in most cases deals with the carnal thing , the new with the Spiritual things of God. IMO

    Hi brother Gene, thanks for your reply to my post. If you want to understand the true concepts on Hebrew Messiah you need to refer to the scriptures in Hebrew Bible only and not Christian NT as it is the secondary.

    There are no two different ideas like Carnal and spiritual Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible. Please understand my arguments here.

    August 23, 2021 at 4:58 am#873001
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:

    Father

    Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

    Jesus / Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

    Men / Judges

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’

    Angels

    All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

    Earthquake

    And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.

    God and the spirit sons of God are gods.  The Father is the most high God and the God of all those other gods… just like He is the God of us.

    Earthquakes are not called gods…

    1 Samuel 14:15

    NIV… Then panic struck the whole army—those in the camp and field, and those in the outposts and raiding parties—and the ground shook. It was a panic sent by God.

    NET… Then fear overwhelmed those who were in the camp, those who were in the field, all the army in the garrison, and the raiding bands. They trembled and the ground shook. This fear was caused by God.*

    *Heb “and it was by the fear of God.” The translation understands this to mean that God was the source or cause of the fear experienced by the Philistines. This seems to be the most straightforward reading of the sentence.

    Men are not considered or called gods by the writers of scripture either.  Here is the correct context of the verse you quoted…

    John 10:33-36…  “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be a god.”

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”

    1. No Jew ever thought Jesus was – or claimed to be – THE Most High God who cannot even be seen by human eyes.  The very thought is ludicrous.

    2. Jesus claimed to be the son of God who came down from heaven, ie: a SPIRIT son of God, ie: a god.

    3. The Jews accused him of blasphemy because a human being was claiming to be a god who came down from heaven.

    4.  Jesus pointed them to Ps 82, which is a case of a bunch of gods (spirit sons of God) presenting themselves before their own God (YHWH), and YHWH passing judgement upon some of them.

    5.  The judgement was that, although He (YWHW) had created them as gods (spirit beings not subject to death like man is), they would indeed die like men die for their crimes of promoting evil deeds and the rejection of God to human beings.

    6.  Ps 82 is not the only time God passed this same judgement upon His eternal spirit sons.  The Book of Enoch tells of Azazel and others who mated with human women (Gen 6:1) and taught humans sorcery, weaponry, and all kinds of other things God didn’t want man to be involved with. (Enoch 9:6-9… Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins.)

    7.  Because of this betrayal by the “Watchers”, God passed judgement upon them.  Many of them were bound and buried deep in the earth to await judgment.  (Enoch 10:11-14…  And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves… And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement… In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire…)

    8.  So Jesus’ argument to the Jews was that their own scriptures tell the account of God calling His spirit sons “gods”.  And his point was that if God calls His other spirit son “gods”, then why wouldn’t God’s firstborn Son – who is set aside from the others as God’s special son (only begotten) – also be at least as much of a god as the others.

    9.  Jesus didn’t claim to be a god ON earth.  But he claimed to have existed as a god in heaven before being born again on earth as a man.  It was this claim that the Jews took offense to.  They didn’t believe he was sent down from heaven, and so in their minds, he was just a regular man who was falsely claiming to have been a spirit son of God (a god) who was sent down from heaven.  And that would be blasphemy.

    August 23, 2021 at 5:26 am#873002
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Then Israel is not a collective noun because God refers to Israel with the singular pronouns of him and he and the singular noun firstborn son.

    That is poetic language – like when people refer to a ship as a “she”.  Is it your claim that every time every single one of the authors of scripture refer to God as a “he/him”, they are all using this kind of poetic language?

    Do you allow for the possibility that even one of those authors called God a “he” because they truly believed that God was a single male person?

    LU:  Then Jesus is not being truthful when He says that “the Father and I are One?”

    John 17:11… Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

    John 17:21… that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us…

    Are you being truthful when you use one example to support your claim that “being one” means that God and Jesus are somehow the very same entity, but then not using these other examples to claim that Jesus’ disciples are also the very same entity that consists of God and Jesus?

    Kathi, do John 17:11 and 21 teach us that Jesus’ disciples are literally the same entity, and that they are part of “the entity of YHWH”?  If not, then it is terribly weak of you to imply that John 10:30 (I and the Father are one) does teach that Jesus and his God are part of “the entity of YHWH”.

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