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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 15, 2021 at 5:29 am#872787
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In truth Paul is exhorting the Christians of Philip to have the spirit, the thoughts of Christ …. ok?

    And in fact, it shows what Christ did, from being in the form of God to being in the form of a servant by becoming man:
    Christ had to shed his form of God, he who was served and worshiped by the angels in heaven, to take on the form of a servant, by putting on our flesh. In fact Christ humbled himself (impoverished) in order to raise (enrich) us spiritually out of love for us and glorify his Father. This is the spirit of Christ, coming down from its pedestal to save the lost that we are. This is why Christ said, He that humbles himself will be exalted, and he that exalteth himself will be made low.

    August 15, 2021 at 5:35 am#872788
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Berean……Being found in fashion  as a “man” ,why?,   was because he was a “MAN”.

    Gene, all men on earth today are men, right?  Do you say about any of them that they took upon them the form of a man, or that they were made in the likeness of men?  Of course not.  It’s a given that a normal man already IS a man, and so nobody goes around saying, “Hey check out Jim over there…  he was made in the likeness of a man.”

    It’s the same with this verse…

    Luke 3:23… He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph…

    and this verse…

    Romans 1:3… regarding His Son, who was a descendant of David according to the flesh…

    These kinds of things aren’t said about human men who were never anything other than human men, Gene.  Nor is this said about any human man in regards to his ancestor…

    Rev 22:16… I am the Root and the Offspring of David

    I am not the “root” of any of my ancestors – and neither are you.  Nor does any regular man say he “came down from heaven”, or “I am from above, you are from below”.

    Now I realize that you strain your brain to come up with crazy and irrational “explanations” for these scriptural sayings, but just like you and I can recognize when Berean is straining his brain to twist God into a Trinity Godhead, the rest of us can recognize when you and Jodi are straining your brains to twist these verses (and MANY others) into not saying what they clearly and undeniably do say.

    August 15, 2021 at 5:36 am#872789
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    It’s all about the “THE”, Berean.  As John told us, the logos was with THE God in the beginning, and was also god (but not THE God whom he was with)

     

    Me

    Jesus is not ” god “but the DIVINE SON OF GOD.
    REVIEW HEBREWS 1: 3

    I will read your previous messages

    August 15, 2021 at 5:49 am#872790
    Berean
    Participant

     Mike

    Why on earth would you repeat a statement that I’ve already shown you to be erroneous?

    Is Jesus omnipotent?  “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Is Jesus omniscient?  “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt 24:36)  Scriptural answer:  NO

    Me

    I speak about DIVINITY of Christ, NOT ABOUT HUMANITY.

    WHEN YOU WILL ACCEPT THE DIVINITY OF THE SON OF GOD (before his incarnation), THEN HIS DIVINITY UNITED TO OUR HUMANITY, THINGS WILL LIGHTEN FOR YOU.

     

    August 15, 2021 at 6:02 am#872791
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike 

    Donc, tant que vous comprenez que la déclaration « pour nous il n’y a qu’un seul Dieu, le Père et un seul Seigneur, Jésus-Christ » est une hiérarchie nommant Dieu plus grand que Jésus et Jésus plus grand que nous, vous avez mon AMEN. 

    Me

    But to us there is but one God, the Father, 

    of whom are all things, and we in him;

    and one Lord Jesus Christ, 

    BY WHOM are all things, and we by him.  

    GOD DIDN’T MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE ALL THINGS, BUT WHEN HE BEGOT HIS ONLY SON, HE GIVEN HIM A DIVINE INHERITANCE: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE
    ETERNITY 😃

     

     

    August 15, 2021 at 10:25 am#872792
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..So let’s not strain our brains ok,  Scripture says  (not me )  But unto us the is but “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between God and Men,  the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

    Please tell me what part of that scripture you don’t believe?

    You say that a mediator can’t be a man or a God,  that is not true,  why because it could be either one, a mediator is a mediator no matter who he or she is.  You taking the word ‘mediator’ as meaning a different kind of being, or species,  and that is not what a mediator is,  it’s someone speaking in behalf of two parties.  as Moses was also a mediator between Israel and God . So are all prophets,  mediators too.

    The “MAN” Jesus Called a mediator in no way means OR IMPLIES, he is a different kind of being then we are, in fact it say he is a ‘MAN” TOO , just has a particular job type of Job he is doing “ONLY”. NOTHING ELSE. 

    PLEASE answer this question is Jesus to you, a human being, a Son of Mankind, who IS  also , a  “SON OF GOD” , according to Jesus he and we are both sons of man and sons of God .

    Another thing, the term “roots”  always mean the family tree which something comes from, never does it mean anything else , but a persons or things  linage. That is obviously  what Jesus meant, when he said he was the “root” and “offspring” of King David.  Many prophetic scriptures back that statement up. Trying to make it say something else is what I would call “straining your brain” brother.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    August 15, 2021 at 10:37 am#872793
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..where do you get all these weird thing from?

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    August 15, 2021 at 11:01 am#872794
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Berean… ..where do you get all these weird things? 

    Me
    What weird things?
    You can specify?

    August 15, 2021 at 11:02 am#872795
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Then you tell me that you know you have been given truth from Jesus because Jesus is the one you asked for that truth, not the devil. 

    Forgive me for not being convinced –

    especially since we were forewarned that

    Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.

    First and foremost read this verse again in a different version

    And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 

    can you see the difference between

    masquerade and transform? I’ll make it clear for you:

    SATAN HIMSELF TRANSFORMS HIMSELF INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT WHEN HE IN ORDER TO DECEIVE OTHERS, DELIBERATELY DOES SOMETHING AGAINST

    THE WILL AND TRUTH OF GOD,

    BY WHICH  DECEIVING ACT

    THE WILL AND TRUTH OF GOD WOULD BE REVEALED!

    Scripture: Matthew 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and

    by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    JUST REFLECT ON THE ABOVE MIKE PLEASE!

    NOW,  I personally never expected SUCH ILLOGICAL COMMENT FROM YOU! WHY?

    Read again Jesus own words!

    John14:14 If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    Aren’t the above words from the SOLE SOVEREIGN RULER convincing to you?

    If Jesus, the sole sovereign spirit and owner of humanity by His own blood said the above words;

    ATTENTION Mike,

    ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT JESUS WILL ALLOW SATAN TO DELIBERATELY INTERFERE 

    IN HIS OWN WORK, JUST LIKE THAT! YOU EITHER MUST BE JOKING OR YOU REALLY DON’T HAVE NEITHER A CLEAR KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS’ SOVEREIGNTY AT ALL NOR HIS

    REDEMPTION PROCESS.

    IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS REGARDING

    WHAT JESUS REDEMPTION IS AND MEANS! IT’S ALL THERE FOR YOU TO READ IN

    Luke 17:20-37. 

    Satan is allowed to do his work but for God’s sake,

    SATAN TILL THE END OF TIMES IS SUBJECT TO JESUS 

    GODMAN ON EARTH 

    MORE THAN THE FATHER AS HE IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    AND AFTER THAT NO SATAN ANYMORE.

    NOW, ACCORDING TO YOU

    I WILL DO WHAT JESUS ASKED ME TO DO, AND YOUR LOGIC SAYS INSTEAD

    SATAN WILL ANSWER ME CAMOUFLAGED AS JESUS. HA HA HA.

    THE BIGGEST LAUGH AND HERESY I’VE EVER HEARD FROM A SUPPOSED A SCRIPTURALLY MATURE PERSON. WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike

    YOU STILL ARE LIVING ON MILK I’M AFRAID.

    ANSWER Mr. Mike

    HOW ON  EARTH ARE WE SUPPOSE TO DO WHAT JESUS MADE CLEAR AND

    PRAY TO THE FATHER WITHOUT ANY KIND OF INTERFERENCE FROM SATAN,

    Just read the last piece from OUR FATHER:

    YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH

    AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.

    GOT IT?  NOT AS IT IS IN HELL Mr. Mike.

    Attention: IF I PRAY TO GOD, DEFINITELY SATAN WOULD MASQUERADE HIMSELF SINCE HE CONSIDERS HIMSELF AS GOD,

    BUT IF I PRAY DIRECTLY TO JESUS, SATAN DEFINITELY COULD NEVER MASQUERADE HIMSELF INTO JESUS, WHEN EVEN THE PRONOUNCEMENT OF JESUS’NAME WOULD CAST SATAN AND HIS DEMONS INTO HELL!

    CONSIDERING THAT JESUS ERADICATED SATAN’S GENERAL TASKS WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

    John 16:11And of judgment:

    because the prince of this world is already judged.

    HAVE YOU GOT ANY SUGGESTION, Mr.Mike?

    IN THE MEANTIME; Read again Jesus own words!

    John 14:1 LET not your heart be troubled. You believe in God,

    believe also in me. 

    John14:14 If you shall ask me anything in

    MY NAME,

    that I will do.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    August 15, 2021 at 3:00 pm#872796
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Read the context Gene.

    Philippians 2, 5-9

    Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; 8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;

    August 15, 2021 at 4:48 pm#872797
    gadam123
    Participant

    Prove it, Adam.  Provide absolute irrefutable PROOF that Jesus was not existing in the form of a god, but then emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being, who dwelt on earth for 30 years and then ascended back into heaven.

    Hi Mike, sorry I am not here to prove anything on Jesus the so called Messiah. In fact it is the other way round.

    Give us something of value by which we can take you seriously… because so far, your claim to fame is that the coming messiah can be absolutely anyone who is born at any given time on earth by any regular human woman in the normal fashion that all humans are born – and that this is somehow a sign that God gave us thousands of years ago.

    I have already given number of arguments on Hebrew Messiah and his human origins on this thread and appropriate thread on Messiah. Here are few more if you are really keen on learning about the Hebrew Messiah;

    …..The passage in Jeremiah states:

    In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely. This is the name by which she will be called: ‘The Lord Our Righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 33:16)

    Ponder this: Has Judah been saved? Does Jerusalem dwell safely? We are well aware of the answers to these questions. The children of Israel, therefore, abide without a king because the messiah has not yet come. In fact, the predicament of the people of Judah and the condition of the city of Jerusalem became much worse around the beginning of the first century C.E. than it ever had been before. In fact, if Jesus were the messiah, why isn’t “Judah saved, and Jerusalem dwell safely.” In fact, I can think of no greater proof that Jesus is not the messiah from the very passage quoted above.

    The prophet Jeremiah is speaking of a future eschatological era when the Jewish people will dwell in their holy city in peace and tranquility. Such a golden age has not occurred since the glorious days of King Solomon. Only under these utopian circumstances will our anointed king again occupy the throne of David. This will occur, without interruption, only in the messianic age – just as the prophet foretold.  It is far more puzzling because the very verses demonstrate that Jeremiah is speaking of an end-of-days prophecy. Let’s explore the following Jeremiah’s prophecy:

    “…for thus says the Lord, “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.” The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says the Lord, ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’” Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, “Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord has chosen, He has also cast them off?’ Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them.” Thus says the Lord, “If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; for I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.” (Jeremiah 33:17-26)

    These ten verses contain some of the most comforting messianic passages in the Jewish Scriptures. None of them, speaks of our current era rather, each of these passages give us a glimpse of the future messianic age that has yet to come.

    The above passage from the book of Jeremiah, which states:

    “…for thus says the Lord, “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel…” (Jeremiah 33:17)

    Surprisingly, it is ignored that the following verse that is a vital part of the same sentence and prophecy. This selective reading of Jeremiah’s prophetic message led by Christianity to erroneously conclude that the prophet speaks of all of Jewish history. This is a misinterpretation of Jeremiah’s prophecy. The following passage continues,

    “…nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.” (Jeremiah 33:18)

    As we are well aware, neither a priest nor a Levite has brought a burnt, grain or sacrificial offering in Jerusalem for over 1,900 years. The prophets of Israel foretold that the sacrificial system would be restored in all of its glory at the end of days.

    At what juncture therefore, will the royal throne of David once again seat a ruler? At the same time that the sacrificial system will be restored to its rightful place in Jerusalem – during the advent of the messiah, and not before. At the End of Days the messiah, the “prince,” will offer a sin sacrifice on behalf of himself and the nation,

    ..And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering. (Ezekiel 45:22)

    Moreover, in the following chapter of Ezekiel, the prophet declares that the messiah will offer a Passover sacrifice:

    And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without a blemish. (Eze 46:4)

    As an aside, why would the messiah have to bring a lamb offering if, as the New Testament insists, Jesus was himself the lamb offering? (Jn. 1:29, 36; I Cor. 5:7; I Pet.19; Rev. 5:6-8, 6:1-16, 7:9-17) Furthermore, according to Christian teachings, why would Jesus have to bring a bull as a sin offering in the future Temple? Church teachings clearly state that Jesus was sinless (Jn. 8:46; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15, 7:26, 9:14; I Pet. 1:19; 2:22, I Jn. 3:5). In fact, in Hosea 3:4-5, the prophet reveals this divine plan of history as he declares that the Jewish people would remain for many days without a king, sacrifice or high priest (ephod) until the messianic age. The prophet states:

    “…for the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.” (Hosea 3:4-5 )

    This prophecy completely undermines the contention that Judaism is deficient because it lacks a Davidic king. The Jewish people are today without a king precisely as Hosea had foretold. Moreover, the Church’s claim that it has a king places an enormous strain on Christian theology. Notice how Hosea, just as Jeremiah, connects the future king with future sacrifices as he declares that both of these ecclesiastical functions will be restored only in the “latter days.”

    I Chronicles 17:12-14 ; This passage states:

    He is the one who will build a house for Me, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his Father, and he will be My son. I will never take My love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. I will set him over My house and My kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever. (I Chronicles 17:12-14)

    I have yet to encounter a Christian who used passages from Jeremiah and I Chronicles to support the claim that there can never be a moment without a king reigning on the throne of David. Missionaries typically use Genesis 49:10 to support this well-known argument. Although this text may appear at first glance to be somewhat more ambiguous than the Scriptures you used, Christians zealously employ this verse to argue that the Torah states that the reign of Davidic kings will continue without interruption. This text reads:

    “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes…” (Genesis 49:10)

    What is the meaning of the uncommon Hebrew word “Shiloh”? Although there is some disagreement over the definition of this obscure word, there is a wide consensus among Jews and Christians that Shiloh is an uncommon reference to the messiah. Bear in mind, this verse is part of the blessing that Jacob bestowed on his son Judah, the ancestor of King David. Using Genesis 49:10, Christians argue that Jacob is revealing that the “scepter,” the symbol of kingship, will never depart from the tribe of Judah even until the End of Days. Pointing to the fact that the Jewish people maintain that there is no Davidic king today, missionaries argue that Judaism is a defective and blinding religion that has turned its back on Jesus, king of the Jews.

    Although it appears as though the Church has made a serious charge against the Jewish faith, this contention is born out of Christendom’s inability to grasp one of the most important covenants in the Bible. The notion that the reign of a Davidic king will continue uninterrupted is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures. This Christian creed has come about as the result of a skewed understanding of Jacob’s blessing and a misinterpretation of a vital promise made by God to King David. In all of the verses that  quoted, the Bible declares that the legitimate royal throne of the Jewish people will never be occupied by anyone other than a member of the tribe of Judah and the House of David. I Chronicles 17:12-142 is therefore, one of the most well-known passages in the Jewish Scriptures, because it contains God’s everlasting covenant with King David – the irrevocable promise that the throne would never depart from his dynasty until the end of time.

    Yet how can we be confident that this is the correct interpretation of the Scripture’s message? How can we know with certainty that the Bible is not suggesting that there would never be an interruption of a Davidic king to sit on the throne at every moment throughout history, as missionaries insist? The answer is simple. Even the Church concedes that there was no king on the throne of David for five centuries! In other words, missionaries acknowledge that from the time the Babylonians removed King Zedekiah from his throne and destroyed the First Temple, there has been no king since who reigned over the Jewish people who was a descendant of the House of David. If the Christian rendering of these prophecies is correct, why was there no king from the House of David who ruled during the Second Temple period? No further evidence is necessary to demonstrate that the Church’s interpretation of Genesis 49:10 and I Chronicles 17:12-14 is erroneous.

    There is, however, a far more serious problem with which missionaries must contend with regarding their claim that Jesus was a direct descendant from the House of David. According to Christian teachings, Jesus was born of a virgin. Although this assertion in the New Testament provides an important record of pagan influences on first century of Christianity, it also deals a devastating blow to the Church’s claim that Jesus is the messiah from the lineage of King David.

    By insisting that Jesus was born of a virgin, Christendom therefore concedes that Jesus lacked the human Jewish father necessary to trace his lineage back to King David and the tribe of Judah. This patrilineal connection to the Davidic dynasty is vital for any claimant to the throne of David, because the lineage of the mother is irrelevant in this regard. The Torah clearly states that tribal affiliation is traced exclusively through the father.

    They assembled the entire congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers…“ (Numbers 1:18)

    Moreover, the author of the Book of Hebrews’ strange assertion that Jesus was also a high priest further weakens the Church’s claim that Jesus is eligible to rule as a Davidic king. For example, the author the Epistle to the Hebrews writes:

    Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. (Hebrews 3:1)

    Seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. (Hebrews 4:14)

    This stunning assertion that Jesus was high priest further undermines the Church’s claim that Jesus was a Davidic king. Simply put, the same man can never be both high priest and king. The high priest must be a descendant of Aaron (the brother of Moses), who was a descendant from the tribe of Levi. A Davidic king, on the other hand, has to trace his lineage from the House of David, descended from the tribe of Judah. It is impossible for the same person to be both a member of the tribe of Levi and Judah.

    It isn’t difficult to understand why the Book of Hebrews repeatedly insists that Jesus served as high priest – the notion that Jesus provided the ultimate sin sacrifice for the human race was vital to the core theology of this Pauline author. This astonishing claim, however, completely sabotages the missionary contention that Jesus was eligible to sit on David’s throne.

    There is no mystery as to how Christianity inflicted this theological wound upon itself. During the first century, the Church had endured a rapid theological transition. In its earliest years, the founders of Christianity sought Jews to join their young movement. As the first century began to draw to a close, however, Christendom recognized that the Jewish people were by and large unimpressed with their message. The zealous effort to convert the Jews en-mass failed. The Church understood that if Christianity was going to flourish, they needed to attract converts from heathen communities that dotted the Fertile Crescent. Although the Church’s swift adaptation at this crucial juncture was highly successful, it would have devastating consequences for the theological complexion of this once-Jewish heresy.

    Quite rapidly and with great ease, Christendom adopted pagan teachings and ideas that were widely familiar to the citizens of the Roman Empire. Virtually all of the god-men and divine saviors of Persia, the Far East, North Africa, and Rome were born to a virgin mother. As a result, the notion that Jesus was also born of a virgin quickly became well ensconced and widely accepted in the teachings of the young Christian Church.

    Christianity would eventually import many other notable pagan beliefs into its teachings. Yet many of these creeds, such as the doctrine of the Trinity, would take a few more centuries and numerous political struggles until they were firmly a part of Church orthodoxy. The belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, on the other hand, was adopted by the Church so early that the New Testament was still being fashioned when it was embraced by first century Christians.

    Christendom paid no small price for becoming the repository of pagan lore. The consequences for adopting the doctrine of the virgin birth created a theological disaster from which the Church has never recovered, and rendered every royal and priestly claim it has made for Jesus untenable….(taken from Outreach Judaism’s website)

    August 15, 2021 at 5:55 pm#872798
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Mike, sorry I am not here to prove anything on Jesus the so called Messiah. In fact it is the other way round.

    Nope. If you do not want to receive him, then you are clearly not ready.

    God will reveal it to you if you are ready to hear the truth.

    Otherwise, you will come up every excuse under the sun to deny him.

    Your current excuse is that the Old Testament should have the whole plan of God written down and that is it.

    But it introduced the law which is the knowledge of sin.

    Then the the work of salvation was performed so that we who are convicted can receive forgiveness.

    You are waiting for a king of Israel like Barabbas and have no plan to deal with your sins. Barabbas isn’t going to help you here.

    I mean, what do you think a messiah does? Become king of a country? Then Kim Jong-un is a messiah by that definition.

    But whatever. You are free to believe whatever you want.

    August 15, 2021 at 11:10 pm#872801
    gadam123
    Participant

    Your current excuse is that the Old Testament should have the whole plan of God written down and that is it.

    Hi Proclaimer, as I have quoted earlier the Hebrew Bible is full in all respects as per the basis of a religion. It’s the misconception of Paul and other writers of Christianity that it is only the School tutor for their newly invented religion.

    Your repeated quoting of Old (Testament) is only for showing sin is another Paul’s new slogan to negate the eternal validity of Torah.

    You are waiting for a king of Israel like Barabbas and have no plan to deal with your sins. Barabbas isn’t going to help you here.

    I mean, what do you think a messiah does? Become king of a country? Then Kim Jong-un is a messiah by that definition.

    But whatever. You are free to believe whatever you want.

    Again it is the very basis for founding of Christianity stating that Jesus was that promised Messiah. The NT writers tried their level best to place him in the prophecies on  this Messiah of whom you are having so much aversion. The Hebrew Bible talks about God’s utopian rule only during reign of this promised Messiah. You seem to ignore such universal peace and knowledge of God during this Messianic rule on this earth and not in heaven as many Christians preach.

     

    August 16, 2021 at 2:41 am#872802
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..None of what It say there makes us any different then Jesus, except he was EXULTED by God our Father over all of his HUMAN brothers and sisters.

    WAS Jesus a human being,  made in the form  (image) of God, so are we, was he found existing as a flesh human being , so are we, did he humble his self and serve God the Father , so should we. Was he highly exulted , so will we be , if we obey God the Father in every way as,  the “MAN” Jesus did.

    What make anyone think that scripture changes Jesus from being a human being, or that he existed as a different being,  before he came to this earth?  That scripture has nothing to do with a “PREEXISTING” Jesus before he was born on this earth.  It was referencing his existence when he was on this earth, not before he was on this earth. He simply never tried to make himself equal to God ever. Only the false teachers of Satan do that,  it proves Jesus never did that then, when he was on this earth,  nor would he do that now either. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

     

    August 16, 2021 at 2:57 am#872803
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Jesus is the MESSIAH,  he came first to deliver us from our sins,  Next time as the ruler of this whole world.

    Those Jew’s are misguiding you brother,  they murdered him then,  and what would make you think, they know what they are saying NOW?  Have you now joined the enemies  of our lord , Jesus Christ, and Almighty God who sent him, and will send him again are you going to be with them who weep for all the wickedness they did to him?  ADAM YOU WERE ON TRACK , WHAT HAPPENED BROTHER?  

    peace and love to you and your Adam…………gene

    August 16, 2021 at 3:47 am#872804
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Jesus is not ” god “but the DIVINE SON OF GOD.

    Berean, scripture tells us about a bunch of gods, and only one Most High God of the other gods.  That is fact.

    Berean, is Jesus the one Most High God of gods – or someone other than the one Most High God of gods?

    August 16, 2021 at 3:51 am#872805
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  I speak about DIVINITY of Christ, NOT ABOUT HUMANITY.

    Are you saying that when Jesus was a human on earth he was not omnipotent or omniscient… but now he is?

    If so, please post a scripture or two to support your idea.

    August 16, 2021 at 4:08 am#872806
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  GOD DIDN’T MAKE A MIRACLE FOR HIS SON TO CREATE ALL THINGS, BUT WHEN HE BEGOT HIS ONLY SON, HE GIVEN HIM A DIVINE INHERITANCE: OMNIPOTENCE
    OMNISCIENCE
    OMNIPRESENCE
    ETERNITY

    Firstly, no scripture says Jesus created a single thing, let alone “all things”.

    Secondly, even if Jesus did create all things, it wouldn’t say anything one way or the other about him being all-knowing or all-powerful.

    And lastly, I’m happy that you at least admitted above that there was a time when Jesus didn’t exist by saying “WHEN He begot His only Son”.

    August 16, 2021 at 5:07 am#872807
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……Jesus is the MESSIAH,  he came first to deliver us from our sins,  Next time as the ruler of this whole world.

    Those Jew’s are misguiding you brother,  they murdered him then,  and what would make you think, they know what they are saying NOW?  Have you now joined the enemies  of our lord , Jesus Christ, and Almighty God who sent him, and will send him again are you going to be with them who weep for all the wickedness they did to him?  ADAM YOU WERE ON TRACK , WHAT HAPPENED BROTHER?

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your post to me. We are debating here on the Messiahship of Jesus. In fact there are no two comings of Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. Vicarious Atonement of Jesus is another myth. In fact human sacrifice is abomination to Yahweh.

    I am not misguided by anyone and in fact I am on search for true religion of the Hebrew Bible. You can not win your arguments on human Jesus here as the NT is full of mythologies on Jesus stating that he was preexisting as a spirit being or a god as often argued by Mike, Proclaimer and others on this Forum. He is even called as God by the writer of the Fourth Gospel by putting such words in the mouth of doubting Thomas. The list goes on.

    Please read the NT in the light of Hebrew Bible you will understand the deviations of Christianity from its original religion.

    Thanks and peace to you…Adam

    August 16, 2021 at 5:12 am#872808
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Berean, is Jesus the one Most High God of gods – or someone other than the one Most High God of gods?

    Me

    I have already answered you many times on this. reread 1 Corinthians 8: 6 and you will have the answer.😐

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