Home Questions & Answers Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth? Page 1,144

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

, , Questions & Answers, , , , , 25,924
Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,861 through 22,880 (of 25,925 total)
123…1,1431,1441,145…1,2951,2961,297
  • Author
    Posts
  • August 11, 2021 at 5:52 am#872702
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all

    Another Bible passage that bolsters the divinity of Christ through His Sonship is Matthew 4:3.

    “And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.” (Matt. 4:3)

    “When Satan and the Son of God first met in conflict, Christ was the commander of the heavenly hosts; and Satan, the leader of revolt in heaven, was cast out. Now their condition is apparently reversed, and Satan makes the most of his supposed advantage. One of the most powerful of the angels, he says, has been banished from heaven. The appearance of Jesus indicates that He is that fallen angel, forsaken by God, and deserted by man. A ‘DIVINE BEING’ would be able to sustain his claim by working a miracle; ‘IF THOU BE THE SON OF GOD, command this stone that it be made bread.’ SUCH AN ACT OF CREATIVE POWER, URGES THE TEMPTER, WOULD BE CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF DIVINITY…” (DA 119.2)

    Did you catch it? The devil tried to cause Jesus to doubt that He was the Son of God, and tempted Him to prove it by working a miracle that only a divine Being could do; therefore, the divinity of Christ was on the basis of His Sonship.

    And again, Satan repeated the same tactic when Christ was upon the cross through those that were guilty of His blood.

    “40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. IF THOU BE THE SON OF GOD, COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS.
    41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
    42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, LET HIM NOW COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS, AND WE WILL BELIEVE HIM.” (Matt. 27:40-42)

    They sought for Him to work out a miracle to prove His divinity, which would sustain His claim that He was indeed the Son of God, but…

    “The power that rested upon Him came directly from the Father, and He must not exercise it in His own behalf… He met and resisted the enemy in the strength of a ‘Thus saith the Lord.’” (YI, Dec. 21, 1899)

    Christ said to Satan…

    “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:4)

    The words that proceeded out of the mouth of God was this:

    “…This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:17)

    How many times must the Bible teach us of the divinity of Christ was due to the fact that He was the Son of God? If you believe in the divinity of Christ, you must believe that He is the Son of God because this was His argument for His divinity, and the Father plainly declared it. Do you believe?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/HeavenlyTrioRevealed/permalink/790719248263597/

    August 11, 2021 at 6:26 am#872703
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..According to Jesus, we are “ALL”  the sons of God.  So what makes you think that Jesus,  being also a Son of God exactly as we are, makes him any different then we are, in the sense of being ” SON’S OF GOD TO”?    you seem to think because Jesus is call the Son of God , some how makes him different then we are.  ?  ,  Please list any scriptures that says that> if you can. Satan loves you people who try to make Jesus appear different then we are , in the eyes of people, you are his perfect workers as all ‘trinitarian’s are. IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    August 11, 2021 at 7:21 am#872704
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Berean…..According to Jesus, we are “ALL”  the sons of God.  So what makes you think that Jesus,  being also a Son of God exactly as we are, makes him any different then we are, in the sense of being ” SON’S OF GOD TO”?    you seem to think because Jesus is call the Son of God , some how makes him different then we are.  ?  ,  Please list any scriptures that says that> if you can. Satan loves you people who try to make Jesus appear different then we are , in the eyes of people, you are his perfect workers as all ‘trinitarian’s are. IMO.
    peace and love to you and yours………gene 

    Me

    You say you have God for your father, but in fact it is Satan who inspires you there…Really sad your case

    August 11, 2021 at 10:44 am#872705
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  I’ll say it as it is. This is a lie. How ironic.

    But since you erroneously believe that anything you don’t agree with is a “lie”, nobody really cares what you call a “lie” anymore.  Your credibility on the matter is already shot – and getting more pathetic every time I ask you about King David and you cower from the question. 😎

    King David said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David telling a lie?  Yes or No?

    August 11, 2021 at 11:04 am#872706
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    Proclaimer: This is either a lie or is true, but not written. It must be a lie because there are scriptures that contradict such an idea.

    Hey Kathi, how do you like the idea of Proclaimer calling you a liar – just because he disagrees with something you said?  Not very befitting of what’s supposed to be an adult Christian Bible discussion forum, is it?  Especially from the one who anointed himself as the forum “Peacekeeper”.

    Okay… I’ll try again.  @Proclaimer, what is the opposite of “true”?  “False”, right?  Not “lie”.  The phrase is “true or FALSE”… not “true or LIE”.

    So while I agree with you that Kathi’s statement is false and can be proven false with scripture, I don’t claim to know Kathi’s heart or mind.  I don’t claim to know for a fact that she already KNOWS her claim is false, and therefore made the claim with the sole intention of purposely deceiving other people.  And because I don’t know these things, I have no basis from which to say she was telling a lie.  I can say that her statement is nonsensical, inaccurate, or complete hogwash.  But I can’t say her statement was a LIE.

    Is any of this starting to sink in yet?  Go to your mirror and repeat to yourself over and over, “The opposite of true is false, not lie.  The opposite of true is false, not lie.  The opposite of true is false, not lie.”

    Do that for a couple of hours and then get back to us with your answer to whether King David LIED when he told us that the sun runs a circuit over the earth, okay?  Thanks.

    August 11, 2021 at 11:25 am#872707
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……So in your theology , the only way to God is from Jesus right?,

     but Jesus said , “no man could come to him except God “draw him”.  

    Seems you have a contradiction of who moves on us first.

    ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST YOU MUST LEARN SOMETHING REGARDING

    THE PERFECT HARMONY BETWEEN 

    THE FATHER AND THE SON! JUST READ AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH:

    Luke 19:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father, and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

    NOW TO YOUR RATHER STRANGE QUESTION ABOVE:

    ME: Gene, WHO AM I?

    WHAT THEOLOGY?

    WHAT CONTRADICTION?

    I AM NOT ESTABLISHING  A THEOLOGY NEVERMIND

    MY THEOLOGY!

    I AM ESTABLISHING THE TRUTH, JESUS! READ:

    John14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father,

    but by ME

    7 If you had known me, you would, without doubt, have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 

    EXPLAIN THE ABOVE Gene, please!

    Jesus said to Philip that THEY HAVE SEEN THE FATHER! 

    On the other hand, Philip again asked Jesus TO SHOW THEM THE FATHER! Then Jesus emphatically said again:

    9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;

    and have you not known me?

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMS THAT SOMEHOW HE IS THE FATHER ALSO?

    ANSWER PLEASE Gene, say something SHOW US YOUR THEOLOGY! ISN’T THAT WHAT YOU CALLED IT IN RELATION TO MY GENUINE PIECE OF SCRIPTURE! Again Jesus made it clear this time and said:

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Show us the Father?

    WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE ABOVE CONVERSATION?

    ISN’T THERE A CONTRADICTION?

    ISN’T THERE A MISUNDERSTANDING BETWEEN JESUS AND PHILIP?

    FROM JESUS POINT OF VIEW THE TITLE FATHER IN RELATION TO GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TITLE FATHER IN RELATION TO US HUMANS!

    Jesus, throughout  this chapter, mentioned the title Father  24 TIMES, on the other hand,  

    THE TITLE GOD HE ONLY MENTIONED IT 

    ONLY ONE TIME!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT JUST READ  HOW AND DISCERN THE TRUTH PLEASE!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God,

    believe also in me. 

    WHAT IS YOUR THEOLOGY IN THE ABOVE? PLEASE ANSWER!

    ALSO IN YOUR MERE QUESTION ABOVE STRANGELY ENOUGH,

    YOU NEVER MENTIONED THE TITLE FATHER, 

    BUT STRANGELY ENOUGH AGAIN, YOU MENTIONED TWO TIMES THE TITLE GOD! EXPLAIN PLEASE!

    IN THE MEANTIME, JUST READ SCRIPTURE PLEASE AND RESPECT IT SINCE FOR JESUS

    THE TITLES GOD and FATHER HAVE DEFINITELY A  SPECIFIC AND DIFFERENT CONNOTAIONS 

    John6:37All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me;

    and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 

    44 No man can come to me,

    except for the Father, who hath sent me, draw him;

    and I will raise him up on the last day. 

    45It is written in the prophets:

    And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned,

    cometh to me.

    46Not that any man hath seen the Father;

    but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    only JESUS AD INTRA,

    no one else, OF ALL THOSE AD EXTRA, CREATURES!

    SO Again Gene WHAT IS YOUR THEOLOGY HERE! 

    FOR NOW, I AM WAITING FOR YOUR THEOLOGY!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    August 11, 2021 at 11:49 am#872708
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh…

    Hebrews 1:3 and Col 1:15 don’t support your idea that “God needed someone who was equal to Himself”.  In fact, they say little more than God said about mankind… that WE are also made in His image.  So nothing about Jesus being “equal” to God in any way – only that Jesus shares God’s image (as we all do).  So it’s not that I didn’t pay attention, it’s just that the verses don’t say what you want them to say.

    Romans 8:3 doesn’t support your claim either.  It’s saying that the law (sacrificing animals to atone for the sins of man) was not effective.  That’s why God sent His own Son as a sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered on behalf of us.  Nothing about that says God needed someone equal to Himself – or that Jesus is equal to his own God.

    Berean, I know what you believe and why you believe it.  I’m trying to show you that the reasons you offer don’t actually support your belief.  Let me give you an example…

    Deut 11:13-15… So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul—then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive oil.  I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.

    Moses said those words, Berean.  If I had a personal desire for Moses to be God Almighty, then I could use this one verse to build a doctrine (like Kathi does with Heb 1:10).  But since I don’t have that personal desire, I assume this is a mistranslation in the Hebrew manuscripts – because it’s clear that neither Moses himself or any of the Israelites he led considered Moses to actually BE God.  It’s the same with Jesus.  There isn’t a single NT writer (nor Jesus himself) who claims that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.  But people take a few verses here and there, and TWIST them into teaching something they clearly don’t.  John 1:1 for example.  You and I agree that it says the logos was theos.  But there are dozens in the scriptures who are theos.  What you need to remember is that John said the logos was theos and was with THE theos in the beginning.  That is a BIG difference from John saying the logos was THE theos.  In fact, for the logos to be with THE theos, it’s clear that the logos must be someone other than THE theos he was with.

    But Trinitarian scholars purposely translated both theos in John 1:1 with a capital “G” to cause people to believe the utterly nonsensical notion that a theos could BE the very theos he was WITH.

    The purposeful mistranslation of John 1:1 is the reason 95% of Trinitarians are Trinitarians.  “Well, it says right here the Word was God, so end of story!”  

    Now just do the same twisting with a few other scriptures, and presto… you have a doctrine where 3 different Gods form our one God – except it’s not really 3 Gods, but three persons in a Godhead, and one of those Gods can be the son of one of the other Gods while still being the same exact God as his Father God.

    It’s mind-numbing.

    August 11, 2021 at 11:58 am#872709
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Who, being in the form of God…

    That’s another excellent example.  The Greek words don’t say “the form of THE theos”, Berean.  It is just theos WITHOUT the definite article “the”.  And as such, it is correctly translated as “the form of a god”.

    And that’s what Phil 2 teaches… that Jesus was existing in heaven in the form of a god (as are all of God’s other spirit sons too),  where he never even considered equality with his own God (THE theos) something to be grasped, but instead emptied himself of this form of a god and was made in the form of a human being.

    So instead of scripture teaching that Jesus is equal to God, this particular passage that you brought up actually teaches that Jesus never even considered the thought that he was equal to his and our God.

     

    August 11, 2021 at 7:11 pm#872712
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Hebrews 1:3 and Col 1:15 don’t support your idea that “God needed someone who was equal to Himself”.

    Me

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, 

     

    JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE BEING WHO IS LIKE GOD….

     

    Besides, that’s what MICKAËL means.
    So you believe or don’t believe, it’s your choice.

    August 12, 2021 at 2:20 am#872714
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Berean is indoctrinated into the false teachings of the Trinity, it would take a miracle to bring him out  of it,  simply a waste of  time.  Our teachings are much alike, except I do not believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , but was certainly prophesied to come by God through the prophets,  and God word came true , it was the “flesh man”, Jesus.  Much like King Cyrus was 200 years before his birth,  he was also the word of God who came in the flesh.  But I see no one calling him the word of God.

    So we may have some variance on things,  like I do with  Proclaimer, especially  on preexistence, but one thing, I believe the most important thing is, we do not believe Jesus was or is A GOD,  even if he had the Devine nature of God the Father “in” him. We can all partake  that in us also, by the same Spirit of God “in” us , just like it was in Jesus Christ our lord.

    peace and love to you and yours………..Gene

    August 12, 2021 at 2:55 am#872715
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …….Your post # 872708  was right on, brother,  I completely agree with , it would do well If  everyone here read it,  and really thought about it.  Because that is exactly what the ,  ‘TRINITARIAN’S” DO. “they force our scriptures to say what in fact,  they are not saying or even hinting at either. ”

    The “DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY”  is beyond a doubt, Satans,  greatest achievement , in deceiving humanity, that he has ever committed. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    August 12, 2021 at 2:57 am#872716
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I am not indoctrinated in the false teachings of the Trinity, it is you who do not understand that Jesus “named by John: THE WORD: John 1 (OF GOD: Rev.19) WAS” THEOS “IN THE BIGINNING, AND THAT HE WAS MADE FLESH FOR OUR SALVATION.

    August 12, 2021 at 4:45 am#872720
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……You most certainly are,  Because as they are saying you are saying is what John 1: 1,  does not say at all> John never said Jesus was A God, nor that Jesus himself is the word of God either,  But Jesus  said  just the opposite,  “the words i am telling you “ARE NOT” my words”  Now that’s,  what Jesus himself said. So if Jesus said the words he was telling us were ‘NOT’ his words,  then what words were they , they were the words of God, who was telling what to say to us,  Jesus was just “QUOTING” God the Fathers words to us.  GET IT? 

     

    When Jesus said he who has seen me has seen the Father,  he meant that,  because it was the Fathers “WILL”,  he was doing,  “NOT HIS OWN WILL”. The same can be said of anyone doing the Will of God.
    “Because it is God who works “in’ us , “both” to WILL,  and do of “HIS”, good pleasure.  GET IT?

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    August 12, 2021 at 9:11 am#872721
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Know that you are not a reference in matters of theology … You think you know, but you do not know.

    Proverbs 14:12

    There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    August 12, 2021 at 9:40 am#872722
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    YOU: Messiah ‘Coming down from above is something mythological creation of the NT writers which is foreign to Hebrew Bible.

    ME: may I ask you a rather odd question please, it could seem out of the contest, but my intention is to expand on it and determine some vital truth.  This is my question:

    FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE POINT OF VIEW,  IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER OF JEWS AND THE GENTILES OR THE FATHER ONLY OF THE JEWS, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT GOD MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID

    ISRAEL IS MY SON.

    I AM ASKING YOU THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION SIMPLY AS YOU ARE VERY KEEN ON THE HEBREW BIBLE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 12, 2021 at 10:56 am#872723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: John 14:1 Read, discern and practice

    THE ONLY TRUTH! JESUS!!!
    LET not your heart be troubled.  You believe in God, believe also in ME.

    You quoted a scripture where Jesus identified himself as someone other than God, Carmel.  Why don’t you believe your Lord when he himself tells you that he is someone other than God?

    Carmel: YES MIKE YOU CAN VERIFY SUCH A THING, AS I ASKED JESUS NOT THE DEVIL!

    Then you tell me that you know you have been given truth from Jesus because Jesus is the one you asked for that truth, not the devil.  Forgive me for not being convinced – especially since we were forewarned that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.

    Mike:  …you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?

    Carmel:  YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    I agree completely with you on that… which, ironically, is why I so rarely agree with you.  You consistently preach things that are either not in scripture at all (ie: GODMAN), or are clearly refuted by scripture (ie: Jesus is more powerful than God).

    Carmel, the correct answer to my question is:  SCRIPTURE.   That is the only thing we have to test the spirits against.  In fact, the whole idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is based on the fact that evil spirits can convince you that you’re listening to Jesus himself – when you are not.  So you will know them by their fruits, and you can test what they say against God’s written word to see if it aligns.

    Based on this, I suspect that although you asked Jesus, it was clearly not Jesus who answered you… because you teach that Jesus is God Almighty, whereas the scriptures teach that Jesus is the son, servant, mediator, messiah, spokesman, prophet and sacrificial lamb OF God Almighty.

    Now… when were you going to answer those other two questions?

    Is it scriptural that God did signs and miracles through His servant Jesus?
    Is it scriptural that God did signs and miracles though other servants, and can do even greater signs and miracles through any of us if He wants to?

    August 12, 2021 at 11:13 am#872724
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Well it would be safe to say that God is there. So now you are also looking down using your own analogy and simple 2D models.

    Why would God be below the earth?  In the Biblical model (not “my” model), God sits on His throne above us… ALL of us.  There isn’t even such a thing as “above” in the unbiblical model you subscribe to – let alone the possibility for God to be above you and Kathi at the same time.  Nor would all eyes be able to see Jesus when he returns.

    Proclaimer, King David (possibly speaking in the Spirit) said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth – from one end of the heavens to the other.  Was King David telling us a LIE?  Yes or No?

    August 12, 2021 at 11:18 am#872725
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Another Bible passage that bolsters the divinity of Christ through His Sonship is Matthew 4:3…

    I don’t argue against the divinity or deity of Jesus, and accept that both of those qualities come from him being one of God’s spirit sons.  Another AMEN for us, B! 😊

    August 12, 2021 at 11:30 am#872726
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE POINT OF VIEW,  IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER OF JEWS AND THE GENTILES OR THE FATHER ONLY OF THE JEWS, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT GOD MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID ISRAEL IS MY SON.

    Very good and interesting.  I’m anxious to see how Adam responds.

    August 12, 2021 at 11:36 am#872727
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Our teachings are much alike, except I do not believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , but was certainly prophesied to come by God through the prophets,  and God word came true , it was the “flesh man”, Jesus.

    I’m always stuck in the middle of non-preexisters and Trinitarians, Gene.  But from my middle ground of what the scriptures actually teach, I can see the good and bad arguments from both sides.  You make excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus isn’t God Almighty, while Berean turns around and makes excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus preexisted his time on earth.

    I get to see the best of both worlds from my vantage point, although I often wish I could just bang both of your heads together and it would result in you seeing the truth that Jesus preexisted and him seeing the truth that Jesus isn’t the God he is the Son of. 😁

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 22,861 through 22,880 (of 25,925 total)
123…1,1431,1441,145…1,2951,2961,297
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
POPULAR TOPICS
ACTIVE TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
 Log in with Facebook
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

 Log in with Facebook
or

Create Account