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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 9, 2021 at 9:39 am#872672
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  Do you possess some sort of non-human reasoning capabilities of which we are not aware?

     

    Carmel: AND HOW! ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO DISCUSS THE TRUTH OF JESUS OF WHICH IT’S NOTHING FROM ME. IT WAS AND IS GIVEN TO ME AS I ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED, OF WHICH YOU ALSO COULD RECEIVE IF YOU SIMPLY ASK AND NOT RELY ON WORLDLY WISDOM WHICH IS NOT OF GOD…

    How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above that surpasses your (an my) human reasoning?  I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  Just like you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?  So what do we do?  Fortunately, there is an app for that…

    1 John 4:1… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Carmel, did you test the spirits that you say gave you what you requested?  What did you test them against?

    August 9, 2021 at 10:18 am#872673
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Fyi, John 16:28 doesn’t have ego eimi (I am) in it so you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare to the I am of John 8:58.

    Are you being disingenuous here?  I know you to be very intelligent, and therefore know that you know that the point I made to Berean stands as irrefutable despite your semantics games.  But just in case you are bringing up a point that you seriously think changes anything, let me explain why it doesn’t.

    If the Greek said, “I am come into the world”, we’d say in English, “I have come into the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I enter the world”, we’d say, “I entered the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I proceed forth into the world”, we’d say, “I proceeded forth into the world”.

    If the Greek said, “I am descended to the world”, we’d say, “I have descended to the world”.

    And so on and so forth.

    Your point seems to be that one verse says “I enter the world” and the other verse says “I come into the world”, therefore we should use the English past tense on one of them, but leave it present tense on the other.

    My point is that the Greek language OFTEN puts many phrases in the present tense that English speakers would say as past tense.  We don’t say, “I am come” or “I am been with you”.  So English translations generally change these Greek presents to “I have come” or “I have been with you”, etc.  But when it comes to John 8:58, most English translators DON’T change “I am before Abraham came into existence” to “I have been before Abraham came into existence”.

    Now, you have no choice but to agree with everything I just said in that last paragraph, because it is irrefutable, and the truth of the matter is easily searched out.  Here’s where we disagree…

    You, like Trinitarian translators of English Bibles, have a personal reason to NOT change the tense in John 8:58 – because you WANT to read into Jesus’ words (the most common pronoun-verb phrase in any language) some mystical proclamation from Jesus that he was Yahweh.  I, on the other hand, have no such personal reason to NOT adjust the Greek tense to a sensible English tense (like we do every other time), because I’m okay just letting the scriptures teach me.

    For the benefit of people like you, I will restate for the record that even if you left the present Greek tense as is, so that Jesus said the phrase “I am” – it would still not equate to Jesus claiming to BE “the great I AM”.

    Firstly, we don’t even know that “I AM” is the correct meaning of YHWH – since it is simply the verb “to be”.  And secondly, Jesus simply saying the phrase “I am” would never mean “I am I AM”.  Understand?

    For it to be like you want it to be, 8:58 would have to say, “Before Abraham even came into existence, I was I AM” (“I was Yahweh”).  He couldn’t just say, “Before Abraham came into existence, Yahweh!”  What would that even mean?  What about Yahweh?

    And so to get a proclamation from Jesus about having existed as Yahweh before Abraham came into existence, Jesus would have had to say, “I am I am”.  And ironically, to have it make sense in English, we’d have to change the Greek present tense of the first phrase the the English past tense: I was I am.  😁

     

    August 9, 2021 at 10:26 am#872674
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: ...but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.

    Where can I read this in scripture?

    August 9, 2021 at 10:26 am#872675
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    Where can I read this in scripture?

    August 9, 2021 at 10:33 am#872676
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  Mike, JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE HIGHEST, HIGHER THAN GOD ALMIGHTY…

     

    Mike: Nonsense.  None could be higher than the Most High God of gods.

     

    Carmel:  SO ACCORDING TO YOU, I AM TELLING A LIE NO? AND IF I AM TELLING A LIE I AM A LIAR. NO?

    Absolutely not according to me.  According to Proclaimer, yes… but not according to me.  I happen to know that a lie is a case of someone INTENTIONALLY claiming something that he already KNOWS is false for the sole purpose of DECEIVING someone else.  I don’t think you are lying about any of the nonsensical stuff you post.  I think you truly believe this crap, and are telling the truth from your own understanding.  I know it to be INACCURATE, but being mistaken or saying something that is inaccurate is NOT telling a lie.

    I was making use of one of your posts to try and teach that to Proclaimer, because he is confused on the subject.

     

    August 9, 2021 at 10:41 am#872677
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Absolutely not according to me.  According to Proclaimer, yes… but not according to me.

    I’ll say it as it is. This is a lie. How ironic.

    August 9, 2021 at 10:42 am#872678
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    This is either a lie or is true, but not written. It must be a lie because there are scriptures that contradict such an idea.

    August 9, 2021 at 11:16 am#872679
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.

    So the Father could have died for our sins then?

    August 9, 2021 at 6:40 pm#872681
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    You

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.
    Where can I read this in scripture?

     

    Me

    I have often quoted you from Hebrews 1: 3 but you do not pay attention to it.

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.

    There are also Colossians 1:15

    cited in my last post

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    And to say that THE SON OF GOD IS HIS OWN SON, there are Romans 8: 3

    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

     

    August 9, 2021 at 6:59 pm#872683
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    Berean: …but know that to save mankind, God needed someone who was EQUAL TO HIMSELF, HIS OWN SON.
    So the Father could have died for our sins then?

    Me

    MY answer IS NO

    August 9, 2021 at 9:18 pm#872686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But if they are equal, why not.

    Because if God died there would be nothing.

    But if the Son of God died, then that is a worthy sacrifice for all people.

    He wasn’t sacrificed because he is God’s equal.

    But he is greater than all mankind.

    August 9, 2021 at 11:45 pm#872690
    Berean
    Participant

    He wasn’t sacrificed because he is God’s equal. 

    Me

    Because His love for us.

    He couldn’t have sacrificed Himself if He had been a creature … but He’s not a creature; He IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD.
    THE REFLECTION OF HIS GLORY AND THE EXACT FOOTPRINT OF THE PERSON OF GOD THE FATHER.

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,  

    …..

    August 10, 2021 at 2:27 am#872691
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..ARENT WE ASLO,  made in the “IMAGE OF GOD”? ,  “FOR IN THE “IMAGE” OF GOD made He them, male and female  made he them”.  I guess you really don’t believe that right?

    Jesus had to be a 100% human being , or he could not have  qualified , to pay the price for our sins.  ‘For by man sin came, and therefore, by man it had to be atoned for. God is just, why would he take a prefect “PREEXISTING”  existing “being”, who already never had sinned  and take away his life and morph him into a human womb, and make him be the sacrifice for our sins.

    First of all that would be an injustice to that person, Jesus, because God said to mankind, it would the sinner that died, and go back to dust from which he came. another thing, it  would be a deception on the part of God to do it that way.   It would never prove a real human being could walk perfectly, because the person would be a preexist being of some kind and would already have developed the way to live , which would give him a huge advantage over us . What would that have to do with the human race?  WHAT would that prove to us?

    Jesus had to be a 100% pure human “exactly’” as we are , to even qualify to pay our sin debt. He could not have been anything else . He HAD TO COME INTO HIS “ONLY” TRUE EXISTENCE EXACTLY AS WE DID.

    As a real human being who started his one and “ONLY” life, exactly as we do. No smoke and mirrors stuff  as you people FALSELY preach.  JESUS was  a flesh and bone human being when he left this earth and will return back, as a flesh and bone “human” being again. No matter how much Power and Glory He now has , he will always be a human being , just like all his brothers and sisters in this world and the world to come.

    No one is going to change God the Father’s plan for all “HUMANITY”  ever,  not in this life or the life to come.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    August 10, 2021 at 2:40 am#872692
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Who, being in the form of God,

    thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    August 10, 2021 at 2:44 am#872693
    Berean
    Participant

    PHILLIPIANS 2

    👉FORM OF GOD

    👇

    FORM OF A HUMAN SERVANT

    August 10, 2021 at 2:55 am#872694
    gadam123
    Participant

    Gene

    Who, being in the form of God,
    THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:
    [7] BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:
    [8] AND BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, AND BECAME OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH, EVEN THE DEATH OF THE CROSS.

    Where from these writers of the NT got such mythological concepts on the human Messiah recorded in the Hebrew Bible? The preexistence of the Messiah is something foreign to the Hebrew Bible and is purely the creation of the NT writers and Christianity.

    August 10, 2021 at 4:07 am#872695
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam 

    NO , THIS IS THE PURE TRUTH FROM GOD.

     

    August 10, 2021 at 10:33 am#872696
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above that surpasses your (an my) human reasoning?  I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right? 

     

    ME: Excellent Mike!

    Let’s analyze your human reasoning, and your own words would assert the truth without your awareness of it.

    YOU: How can I know for sure that you were given spiritual knowledge from above….

    I can’t very well just take your word for it, since I can’t verify such a thing, right? 

    ME: WRONG! THOUGH I HAVE TO EXPLAIN USING MY HUMAN REASONING!

    Thus from here, we know that we haven’t got the same human reasoning, or more accurate:

    THE SAME SPIRIT!  I AM SURE OF IT SINCE WE ARE NOT IN HARMONY! NO.

    We as humans throughout our life are mingled with TWO SPIRITS, IN A MODE TO SAY,

    ONE ON OUR RIGHT AND ONE ON OUR LEFT, one from God through the Holy Spirit, and one from Satan through demons, evil spirits. If a human being needs to be sure of which spirit is dominating him more than the other there’s only one way by which he determines that he is in the right spirit of God and that can only be achieved by ,ATTENTION Mike, reading

    John14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest;

    and how can we know the way?

    REFLECT ON THE ABOVE  Mike, it is practically the same question YOU ASKED! Read:

    YOU: How can I know for sure(THE WAY)  that you were given spiritual knowledge from above….

    Can you fit this MOST PERFECT answer to your question? NEVERMIND: 

    IN FULL HUMILITY ALLOW ME THEN, Mike,

    AS I KNOW FOR SURE, SINCE I BELIEVE IN JESUS, MORE THAN I BELIEVE IN GOD, SINCE GOD IS A MYSTERY AND ONLY IN JESUS I CAN FIND AND COME TO GOD AND THE FATHER,

    WELL ASSERTED BY JESUS HEREUNDER,

    BUT FIRST READ  MORE ASSERTED PRECISELY IN

    John 14:1 Read, discern and practice

    THE ONLY TRUTH! JESUS!!!

    LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God,

    believe also in ME.

    I repeat again for TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE SAKE!

    LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED Mike, isn’t that what is happening to you,

    WHEN YOU ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION?  

    NOW CARRY ON READING  and you will discover the truth AND YOUR HEART WILL NOT BE TROUBLED!

    6Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father,

    but by me.

    I DON’T LET MY HEART BE TROUBLED AT ALL AS I PRACTICE WHAT

    THE TRUTH, AND THE WAY JESUS RECOMMENDED ME, PRECISELY 

    HIS COMMANDMENT!

    7If you had known me,

    you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

    OK Mike, IF YOU HAD KNOWN JESUS, 

    YOU WOULD FOR SURE HAVE KNOWN THE TRUTH AND WHICH SPIRIT YOU HAVE!

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 

    9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH JESUS, PRESUMABLY SINCE BIRTH, BY THE LOOK OF IT.NO? WITH EVERY RESPECT Mike

    you haven’t known Jesus true enough! 

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and

    greater than these shall he do.

    If I WORK GREATER WORK THAN JESUS DID, REGARDING HIS TASK AS

    GODMAN ON EARTH ESPECIALLY AFTER HE RESURRECTED, OF WHICH HE NEVER PROCLAIMED SINCE HE WAS NOT YET DIED AND GLORIFIED IN John 14, HOW COULD YOU BELIEVE ME, IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN JESUS AS YOU SHOULD DO?

    NOW WE COME TO OUR MOST VITAL POINT OF YOUR QUESTION!

    13Because I go to the Father:

    and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name,

    that will I do:

    that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

    14If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    Now let’s clarify in relation to your question!

    YOU: I can’t very well just take your word for it,

    since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  

    ME: AGAIN Mike I’m afraid YOU ARE WRONG, WITH RESPECT TO

    THE TRUTH, IN JESUS’ OWN WORDS ABOVE! I EXPLAIN:

    MORE THAN 15 YEARS AGO I DID WHAT JESUS ASKED ABOVE READ:

    14If you shall ask me anything in my name,

    that I will do.

    I FULLY DETERMINED, SIMPLY ASKED JESUS A VERY CLEAR QUESTION AND THAT IS,

    THAT UNLESS HE HIMSELF TEACHES ME I WOULD NOT BELIEVE IN HIM AT ALL!

    SIMPLY AS I DON’T BELIEVE IN NO ONE ON EARTH REGARDING HIS  GENERAL TRUTH AND TASK.

    THUS IN THIS NEW LIFE, BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY, I RECEIVED BIT BY BIT JESUS TRUTH.

    I WAS AND AM GUIDED DEFINITELY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHY I AM SO SURE!

    I DON’T MEAN THAT THE DEVIL IS NOT DOING HIS PART BY ALL MEANS, NOW HERE IS THE ASSERTION THAT I AM IN THE POSITION TO DISTINGUISH THE TRUTH FROM THE LIE, ALWAYS WITHIN MY MATURITY!

    SINCE I AM FULLY CONVINCED  OF THE GOSPEL AND I DID WHAT JESUS COMMANDED AND ASKED HIM, PLUS THAT JESUS ASSERTED THAT

    HE WILL DO,

    JESUS WILL NEVER ALLOW SATAN TO INTERFERE OR MISGUIDE ME TO THE EXTENT THAT

    MY HEART BE TROUBLED, OR I WILL END UP MORE SUBJECT TO SATAN, OR EVEN NOT  SUBJECT AT ALL TO JESUS. NEVER, SINCE I  WAS A LOST SHEEP AND FOUND MY GOOD SHEPHERD!

    YOU: I can’t very well just take your word for it,

    since I can’t verify such a thing, right?  

    YES MIKE YOU CAN VERIFY SUCH A THING,

    AS I ASKED JESUS NOT THE DEVIL!

    ESPECIALLY SINCE I ASKED REGARDING GOD’S KINGDOM

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON

    JESUS CHRIST

    DID YOU MIKE ASKED JESUS AT ANY TIME DURING YOUR CHRISTIAN LIFE, REGARDING

    GOD’S KINGDOM AND HIS JUSTICE!

    Mathew 6:33 Seek ye therefore FIRST the kingdom of God, and his justice,

    and all these things shall be added unto you.

    YOU: Just like you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?

    THERE’S NO NEED TO DO THAT!

    YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    I MYSELF  WOULD BE IN A BETTER POSITION

    SINCE I DID WHAT JESUS ASKED,

    HIS COMMANDMENT!

    John14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

    NO JESUS NO GOD!

    NO GOD NO JESUS!

    YOU: So what do we do?  Fortunately, there is an app for that…

    1 John 4:1… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    Carmel, did you test the spirits that you say gave you what you requested?  What did you test them against?

    READ AGAIN THE ABOVE AND YOU WILL HAVE YOUR ANSWER AND TRUTH!

    APART FROM THAT, I AM WELL SURE THAT

    JESUS WILL LET ME KNOW  ALL MY ERRORS AS MUCH AS HE REVEALS TO ME HIS REVELATIONS IT IS HIS TASK NO:

    DURING PRAYER

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and

    to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 10, 2021 at 11:17 am#872697
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that there are waters below the earth.

    Well it would be safe to say that God is there. So now you are also looking down using your own analogy and simple 2D models.

    Unless that area belongs to a different God.

    August 11, 2021 at 2:31 am#872700
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……So in your theology , the only way to God is from Jesus right?,  but Jesus said , “no man could come to him except God “draw him”.  Seems you have a contradiction of who moves on us first.

    IT’S GOD THE FATHER WHO BRINGS US TO Jesus , according to Jesus.  Example,  “Peter who do you say I am,  Peter responds , “you are the son of the living God”, Jesus answers, “blessed are you Simon Bar Jona, because Flesh and blood (Jesus was flesh and blood) , “did not tell you this, but my Father in Heaven has revealed this unto you,  …………….> UPON “THIS” ROCK, I SHALL BUILD THE CHURCH AND THE GATES OF HELL   SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. 

    WHAT ROCK?, “THE POWER OF GOD”, to get into our minds and “Reveal the truth to.” 

    Just as God did to Peter, the same must be done to us.  You portraying Jesus as greater then GOD the Father is nothing but a , SATANIC LIE.   2THES 2  IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING , you are placing “The man” , Jesus before even GOD the Father,  which turns the “IMAGE” of him into A “MAN OF SIN” . JUST AS,  2THS 2 says ,  you need to read it completely and see what the outcome of them that do that will be, when Jesus returns and completely abolishes that “trinitarian” LIE about him.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

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