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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 2, 2021 at 5:18 am#872496
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Do you see the great deep of waters under the earth?

    Proclaimer:  Oh yeah, I see it.  What is below that? Or does the water go forever and ever and ever?

    From my same post…  We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that below the earth is water.

    Mike:  [In your model,]Where are the waters below the firmament?  Where are the waters above it?  Heck, where is the firmament, in which God placed the sun, moon, and other lights and set them on appointed circuits over the earth so we could determine times and seasons?  Where are the windows of heaven that God opened in Noah’s day to let the flood waters in from above?

    Proclaimer: Wouldn’t it be the sea that is below the firmament. And the waters above is the sky above us. Is there not water in the atmosphere?

    That would place the firmament at sea level – with the waters above the firmament being the atmosphere, and the waters below the firmament being the sea.  But God placed the lights of the sun, moon and stars in the firmament – and those lights don’t run circuits over the earth at sea level, right?

    Also, you didn’t address my original point about you and LU looking up to God’s throne at the same time from opposite sides of your ball earth.  Did the illustration help you?  Do you now understand what I was saying?  Do you accept and admit that both of you couldn’t possibly look up above your heads into the sky and see God’s throne surrounded by 24 other thrones at the same time?  Do you accept and admit that heaven would be both up and down at the same time for each of you?

    And finally (for the 12th time)…  King David told us that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David LYING to us?  Yes or No?

    August 2, 2021 at 5:44 am#872497
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus?  Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?

    Carmel: YOU NEVER ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION BEFORE and  I NEVER ANSWERED IT, Mike.

    I did ask it.  In fact, this second time I just copied and pasted the same questions from my previous post.

    Carmel: WHAT IS THE REASON THEN THAT YOU MADE IT LOOK LIKE I ANSWERED IT BY

    PUTTING MY ANSWER FROM MY LAST POST? WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABOVE QUESTION YOU ASKED NOW.

    I know your answer had nothing to do with the questions I actually asked.  Your answers rarely do.  But that is why I copied and pasted the same questions again, in the hope that you would answer them this time.  I even added this to the end of my copied and pasted questions…  Carmel, please just answer the two questions above this time.  Thanks

    So for the love of God, man… just answer the questions this time. (It only takes two words to directly and honestly answer them.)

    August 2, 2021 at 5:49 am#872498
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our

    God grants him. 

    ME: NO MIKE,

     NOT QUITE PRECISE 

    GOD THE FATHER, EVEN BEFORE JESUS’ PASSION, 

    GRANTED (not grants) JESUS THE ENTIRE POWER OF THE DEITY!

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father

    HAD GIVEN HIM (even before the world was) all things into his hands,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    YOU: His and our God could absolutely grant Jesus the power to do anything He could do…

    ME: the above again 

    IS NOT QUITE PRECISE Mike!

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:

    All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    The above Mike  asserted that Jesus HAS ALL POWER and is in command of

    ALL THE SPIRITUAL PROCESSES AND THE PHYSICAL PROCESSES!

    John17:10 And all my things

    (PHYSICAL and HUMAN) are thine, and thine

    (SPIRITUAL DIVINE) are mine;

    and I AM glorified in them.

    ONLY JESUS RIGHT NOW POSSESSES THE GLORIFIED BODY BOTH

    SPIRIT AND FLESH IN ONE INSTANT!

    JESUS GLORIFIED BODY CONSISTS OF TWO BODIES FUSED INTO ONE,

    ONE SPIRIT, and ONE FLESH, WITHOUT BEING DETRIMENTAL IN ANY WAY AND INSTANT, TO EITHER THE SPIRIT OR THE FLESH.

    THUS WHILE JESUS RIGHT NOW CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN HIS FLESH HUMAN BODY AS HE WALKED ON EARTH IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, A BODY ANTICIPATED ON MOUNT TABOR, HE WHILE BEING PHYSICALLY IN FLESH  WOULD BE ALSO IN THE SAME INSTANT

    SPIRIT. 

    THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JESUS IN

    John 6:39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me:

    that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing;

    but should raise it up again on THE LAST DAY.

    PRECISELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS,

    HIS LAST DAY ON EARTH!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH, WAS IN HELL FIRE IN

    HIS UNIQUE GLORIFIED FLESH/SPIRIT BODY! 

    SUPERIOR TO FIRE!

    MOSES’ BURNING BUSH AND NOT BEING CONSUMED!

    CONSEQUENTLY, JESUS ACCOMPLISHED  THIS TRANSFORMATION TASK OF

    THE FLESH INTO SPIRIT, OF WHICH

    HE POSSESSED ALREADY IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, John17:5

    FOR THE SAKE OF THE HUMAN RACE, A TASK WHICH ADAM REJECTED.

    Mike I keep on reminding you GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIS 

    LONGEST REST!

    YOU: but Jesus’ God hasn’t granted him that much power.  A very lot of power to be sure, but not that much.

    Mike read again THE ABOVE, AND RESPECT SCRIPTURE

    ALL POWER is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    YOU: Jesus even tells us, “the Son can do nothing by himself”, right? (John 5:19)

    ME: WHICH ASO CONFIRMS THAT THE FATHER CAN DO NOTHING BY HIMSELF ON EARTH AS A HUMAN SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT!

    Mike, Jesus even tells us :

    John16:15 All THINGS whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive OF MINE, and show it to you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    August 2, 2021 at 5:51 am#872499
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel, here’s a screenshot of where I asked you those questions a week ago…

    Screenshot (180)

    So forget all the rest of the nonsense, and just answer those two questions please.

    August 2, 2021 at 6:07 am#872500
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our God grants him. 

     

    Carmel: NO MIKE, NOT QUITE PRECISE 

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying:  All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 

    What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.  The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

     

    August 2, 2021 at 7:15 am#872501
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!

    IT’S CLEAR !?

    HEBREWS 1: 3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..

    Micah: 5: 2

    …. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

     

    August 2, 2021 at 7:56 am#872502
    Berean
    Participant

    August 2, 2021 at 8:44 am#872503
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful. 

    ME: the above is only human reasoning!

    GOD’S PROCESSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMAN PROCESSES.

    Jesus emptied Himself of His DIVINE SPIRIT, and He offered Himself for the love of the Father and His kingdom, the fact that it is the kingdom of the Son. Now while the Father remained in heaven in His original Glory with Jesus ad INTRA,  ad EXTRA He was hidden in Jesus, a SPIRIT as “THE WORD” of God, in the process of creation, the Father needs the Son and the son needs the Father, a perfect harmony.  By which process Jesus emptied and poured His Spirit eternally sealed in creation as eternal life in all creatures, John6:27. Thus while He emptied Himself and became as weak as humans, spiritually in creation HE WAS THE MOST POWERFUL, but again in this process, He always remained in the oneness of the triune God. The Father in the Son and the Son in the Father, one substance, despite distinct!

    YOU: The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    ME: PURE HUMAN REASONING!

    Isaiah 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    YOU: Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH,

    grants him.  No more, and no less.

    WRONG!

    GOD THE FATHER GRANTED JESUS

    ALL POWER EVEN BEFORE CREATION AD EXTRA, WHY?

    SIMPLY AS THE FATHER  IN HIS FULL POWER WAS ETERNALLY HIDDEN IN JESUS,  SUPPORTING  AND STRENGTHENING HIM, AS  HIS OWN SPOKEN WORD, BY WHICH GOD COMMUNICATED AND CREATED ALL.

    JESUS RIGHT NOW AND TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD IS THE MOST POWERFUL. 

    JESUS OWNS A UNIQUE BODY BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN ONE INSTANT!

    THE FATHER’S PLAN AND INTENTIONS FOR THE SAKE OF

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON AS  CHILDREN OF GOD.

    John1:3 All things were made BY HIM: and without him was made nothing that was made.

    AND WITHOUT HIM THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO CREATE AT ALL, SIMPLY AS JESUS IS THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES, PRECISELY ATTACHED DIRECTLY WITH CREATURES, THE LIFE OF ALL. THE FATHER WOULD HAVE DESTROYED IMMEDIATELY HIS CREATURES IN THE LEAST SPECK OF  SIN INTENTION. SOMETHING WHICH THE FATHER WOULD AND COULD NOT DO SO LONG JESUS IS IN ALL. IT WOULD BE A SUICIDE, DESTROYING HIS OWN SPIRIT, DESTROYING HIMSELF. 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    August 2, 2021 at 4:29 pm#872504
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What I said is 100% precise…

    1 Cor 15:27… Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    The One who is in a position to PUT all things under the other one is the One who is the most powerful.  The other one will never have as much power as the One who put all things under him.

    Jesus has exactly as much power and authority as his and our God, YHWH, grants him.  No more, and no less.

    What Mike says here is exactly right. If you are arguing against this, then you are not arguing against Mike, but the New Testament which is fine. But remember what you are arguing against. Don’t shoot the messenger.

    August 2, 2021 at 4:32 pm#872505
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike

    WHAT THE FATHER “IS” THE SON IS ALSO, PHYSICALLY AND SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING …. SINCE THE TIMES OF ETERNITY … AMEN!

    IT’S CLEAR !?

    HEBREWS 1: 3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person …..

    Micah: 5: 2

    …. whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

    Nothing here teaches that there were two Gods or two who are God.

    It actually fits nicely with the rest of the New Testament.

    The first to be with God was the Word.

    The Word became flesh.

    He was beheld as Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.

    The head of Christ is God just as the head of Man is Christ.

    He was begotten of God. He is divine. Emptied himself. Took on flesh. Died. Rose again. Is back in the glory of God.

    August 2, 2021 at 4:48 pm#872506
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Also, you didn’t address my original point about you and LU looking up to God’s throne at the same time from opposite sides of your ball earth.  Did the illustration help you?  Do you now understand what I was saying?  Do you accept and admit that both of you couldn’t possibly look up above your heads into the sky and see God’s throne surrounded by 24 other thrones at the same time?  Do you accept and admit that heaven would be both up and down at the same time for each of you?

    No I do not accept that. The universe surrounds us in fact we are in it.

    It’s like saying that we live in a forest and the owner of the forest resides outside the forest. So no matter what direction you look while in the forest, you are looking toward the owners residence.

    Looking up is not about gravity and you do not even believe in gravity I think. Looking up is looking toward the Most High God. By his Spirit he can dwell in things that are supposedly above and below me. But he exists outside the universe, so no matter what part of the universe I look toward, I am looking toward where he is because it is written that not even the cosmos can contain him.

    Mike you take things too literally and place them in a 3D space using 2D models. Your thinking is way to limiting for an eternal God who is above all dimensions.

    And most language in the Bible is from our perspective because it is written for us. So yes, from our perspective I look up and you look up. There is nothing in scripture and science that says this is exactly the same direction is there. It is relative.

    Just like the guy throwing the tennis ball in the train while going 100 mph. Wow he can throw it and catch it despite the speed and area that is covered while the ball is in the air. But because they are all contained and moving at the same speed, then you don’t notice it at all. Only when there is a sharp corner or acceleration and deceleration will you notice that you are actually moving.

    Up in a spiritual sense is a higher realm. There are higher beings right. Are they higher because they are standing on a ladder?

    Think about this for a second. If you went from Earth to Heaven in a heavenly chariot, yes you would ascend above the clouds and keep ascending till you were above the universe. That could be achieved from anywhere on the globe. Likewise, if you could shrink down smaller than the smallest particles what would you find there? Perhaps the Spirit of God? In a sense, that is up and down too right from our perspective? God is both outside and inside his creation. It’s not about a snow globe sitting on God’s mantelpiece. That is stone age thinking.

    Have you not read how in the last days that knowledge would increase? You do a huge disservice to yourself with this flat earth teaching. When people feel convicted by what you say about God and Jesus etc, they will remember your teachings on the Flat Earth and brush all that you say off. Perhaps you have already discovered this with friends and family.

    A little leaven works through the whole batch of dough.

    August 2, 2021 at 7:59 pm#872508
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Nothing here teaches that there were two Gods or two who are God. 

    Me

    The bible TEACHES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER, AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. (1Cor.8: 6)

    THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHRIST IS NOT (before his incarnation) OF THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURE (SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE) AS THE FATHER.

    GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON.
    AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.

    HEBREWS 1

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE IF HIS PERSON, AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    PERSON

    5287

    upostasiV
    hupostasis
    hoop-os’-tas-is

    from a compound of upo – hupo 5259 and isthmi – histemi 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively): – confidence, confident, person, substance.

    August 2, 2021 at 9:39 pm#872509
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The bible TEACHES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD THE FATHER, AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. (1Cor.8: 6)

    THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT CHRIST IS NOT (before his incarnation) OF THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURE (SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE) AS THE FATHER.

    GOD THE FATHER IS BIGGER THAN THE SON IN THE SENSE THAT HE IS BEFORE THE BEGOTTEN SON.
    AS A HUMAN FATHER IS BEFORE HIS CHILDREN HE BEGET.

    Agreed.

    August 3, 2021 at 1:13 am#872513
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Jesus SAID TO THE Father , that he was “the ONLY” , “true God”,  and Jesus is not “LORD” Adonai ,  he is “lord”  Adon, same as any human ruler is.

    You really need to make a study on the difference uses of the word Lord in scriptures. 

    peace and love to you and your………..gene

    August 3, 2021 at 6:47 am#872515
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

     

    Berean……Jesus SAID TO THE Father , that he was “the ONLY” , “true God”,  and Jesus is not “LORD” Adonai ,  he is “lord”  Adon, same as any human ruler is.

    You really need to make a study on the difference uses of the word Lord in scriptures.  

    Me

    Don’t belittle THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS

    Revelation 17

    These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    THE FATHER IS THE LORD GOD ALLMIGHTY

     


    Rev.19
    [1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    [6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

     

     

     

    August 3, 2021 at 7:09 am#872516
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..what does that have to do with the word “adonia”, LORD, GOD ALMIGHTY,  and “adon” a judge or “human” ruler.
    “The LORD, “ADONIA” Almighty God,  said unto my lord “ADON” a human ruler or King , Sit on my right hand Until “I ” (almighty God)  make your (Jesus ‘) enemies your foot stole.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    August 3, 2021 at 7:44 am#872517
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean…..what does that have to do with the word “adonia”, LORD, GOD ALMIGHTY,  and “adon” a judge or “human” ruler.
    “The LORD, “ADONIA” Almighty God,  said unto my lord “ADON” a human ruler or King , Sit on my right hand Until “I ” (almighty God)  make your (Jesus ‘) enemies your foot stole.

    Is that how its worded gene?

    If so, you may have taught me something for the first time in these forums.

    August 3, 2021 at 7:47 am#872518
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    110:1 LDVD MZMVUr N’aM YHVH L’aDNY ShB LYMYNY ‘yD-‘aShYTh ‘aYBYK HDM LUrGLYK.

    Darby’s English Translation
    110:1 {Psalm of David.} Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet.

    August 3, 2021 at 9:40 am#872519
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jehovah said unto my Lord,

    What’s the Hebrew word for Lord in that verse, Berean?

    August 3, 2021 at 10:24 am#872520
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    This is the interlinear for Psalms 110:1 to be read right to left:

    Screen Shot 2021-08-02 at 5.09.10 PMFrom here: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/110-1.htm

    Please see Strong’s 113 for “Lord” and see that it does not merely mean human ruler but can also apply to a divine ruler even YHVH. Gene seems to be trying to claim that only human rulers are called this but he is incorrect.

    David, the writer of this Psalm 110, calls his descendant “my Lord” and is shown that his “Lord” will sit at the right hand of YHVH. THe million dollar question is how is it that David calls his son “Lord?”

    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/113.htm

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