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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • August 1, 2021 at 10:18 am#872474
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Christ said, “THE LORD POSSESSED ME’ ‘IN THE BEGINNING’ of his way…”

    The event was when the LORD possessed Him, or as one being acquired.

    That was a nice read.  I agree that the wisdom in Prov 8 is Jesus.  Now we only need to determine the meaning of the word translated in the KJV as “possessed”.

    “Possessed” is one of the possible meanings – but if you choose to accept that meaning, then you also have no choice but to accept that, 1) Jesus can’t possibly BE the God who possesses him, and 2) Jesus is a possession of God – like a slave is the possession of the man who owns him.

    All the other times the word is used in Proverbs, it has the meaning of “acquired” (as is mentioned by your author above).  “Acquired” is another possible meaning in Prov 8:22 – but if you choose to accept that meaning, you have no choice but to once again accept that, 1) Jesus can’t possibly BE the God who acquired him, and 2) Jesus became a possession of God through that acquisition.  Of course in this case, you’d also have to struggle with what it meant for God to have “acquired” Jesus.  Did Jesus exist in some other realm or dimension, and God went to that realm/dimension and captured Jesus?  Whatever solution you come up with, the bottom line remains that Jesus can’t be the very God who acquired him.

    The third possibility is “created”.  “Created” holds the most promise for being the true meaning of the Hebrew word, because the following verses reiterate the “created” mantra by having Jesus talk about how he was “born” and “given birth”, etc.  So the context of the entire passage is Jesus telling us how he was the first of God’s creations, how he was born even before God made the earth, how he was given birth before God set the boundaries for the sea, etc.

    Also, the same Hebrew word is used in Genesis 4:1-2… Adam laid with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.” Later she gave birth to Cain’s brother Abel. 

    We still have the 3 choices here.  I think we can rule out “possessed” in this case, right?  Some Bibles give the idea of “acquired” here – but doesn’t that give the impression that Eve went walking through the wilderness, found a baby, and took it as her own?  And the third option is once again “created”, which makes the best sense – not only since Eve did in fact (with the help of God) create a new living soul that didn’t exist before – but because the surrounding context (just like with Prov 8) contains multiple mentions of “giving birth/begetting” that go hand in hand with creating a new life.

    So you choose whichever meaning makes you happy.  The bottom line is that all three of the possibilities make it clear that Jesus is not God, but instead a possession/acquisition/creation of God.

     

     

    August 1, 2021 at 10:21 am#872475
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Israel is a he/him also.

    Good point.

    And wayward thinking  takes things like this and create doctrines that are false.

    For example. We could create a doctrine that the Son of God is made up of multiple people. The Son could be a Trinity too if you want to stretch the idea out like you are doing with God.

    Is the Son one person, two persons / a Binity, three / Trinity, etc.

    Why not? This is the sort of redicilous behavior that’s been applied to God.

    And why not the Father or Paul. Paul could have been 55 people. If Yahweh is two or three people, then Paul could be 55 people.

    August 1, 2021 at 10:21 am#872476
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
    HE HAS THE SAME NATURE OF HIS FATHER (HEBREWS 1)
    THE FATHER IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE) AND PERSONALITY. THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE)
    BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.
    AMEN?

    I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND….

    Hebrews 1

    Who being(Jesus) the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,(FATHER’S PERSON)

    August 1, 2021 at 10:30 am#872477
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Regarding your comment:

    I’m interested to see what you’re able to find. Let us know as soon as you have something.

    It is not poetry. The term is “collective singular,” or “collective singular.”

    A collective noun is a name for a group of people or things such as “family,” “class,” “pack,” “bouquet,” “pair,” and “flock.” Collective nouns usually take a singular verb, because they are singular in construction, but they sometimes take a plural verb.

    https://www.learnersdictionary.com/qa/Collective-Nouns-and-Verb-Agreement

    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/collective-nouns/

    August 1, 2021 at 10:38 am#872478
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    August 1, 2021 at 10:56 am#872479
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Yes YHVH who is our one creator, who is both God and Lord, Father and Son, are my Father and my Brother.

    Now leave out the middle part and say these words out loud to yourself… Yes YHVH are my Father and my Brother.  I can picture you doing that right now, and your pride overcoming your logic and convincing you that it’s perfectly normal to say Jehovah ARE both my Father and my BROTHER.

    Now do it the way I asked.  State for the record…  “My ONE Creator ARE both my Father and my brother.”

    And then go tell everyone you know that you are God’s sister.

    And then teach your grandchildren this prayer:  “God ARE great.  God ARE good.  Let us thank THEM for our food.  We thank our heavenly BROTHER for this food we are about to eat, and praise our Creator, for THEY are faithful to all of the brothers and sisters THEY created for HIMSELF.

    And then go and find such language in any scripture.  For example, “I love the LORD my God, because THEY are my Father and Brother.”  Or, “Fear the LORD thy Creator, because THEY are powerful.”  

    Please let us know what you find.

    LU: What is abundantly clear is that the “believers” in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the anointed one spoken about in Psalms 2 and that Jesus, the anointed one belongs to YHVH.

    Yes, Jesus is a possession of YHWH – as are we all.  And yes, Jesus is one of the many messiahs his and our God has anointed throughout scriptures.  But that doesn’t address my point about the prayer in Acts 4, and you know it.  Why are you afraid to address it directly and honestly?

    Kathi, according to the very words the Apostles used in their prayer to our Creator in Acts 4, is Jesus the Creator to whom they prayed, or the holy servant OF the Creator who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?

    Which one?

    August 1, 2021 at 11:17 am#872480
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Mike

    JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

    Agreed.  But remember that the Son OF God cannot possibly BE the very God he is the Son OF.

    Berean: HE HAS THE SAME NATURE OF HIS FATHER (HEBREWS 1)

    Agreed.  Jesus has the same spirit nature as God – and all of God’s other spirit sons.  We are also sons of God, but we do not yet share God’s spirit nature that His spirit sons already share.

    Berean:  THE FATHER IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE) AND PERSONALITY. THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY (NATURE, ESSENCE)
    BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY.
    AMEN?

    I agree that Jesus is not the person of God.  Jesus is a god (like Michael, Satan, Gabriel, Dagon, etc), but not the Most High God of all those other gods.  All of the gods that the God created have the nature of gods, because that is the nature the God gave to them.  But none of them, including Jesus, ARE the God who created them.

    So no, Jesus is not “God in infinity” nor “God in nature”.  Jesus is a different god than the God who created him as the first of His works.  Jesus is the Son, servant, prophet, sacrificial lamb, anointed one, spokesman and everlasting priest OF the God.  And therefore Jesus cannot possibly be the God he is all those things of.

    Berean, according to the entirety of scripture, Jesus is someone other than God.

    August 1, 2021 at 11:34 am#872481
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  It is not poetry. The term is “collective singular,” or “collective singular.”

    These are examples of collective nouns…

     

     

    She comes from a decent family; she is the youngest of six kids.
    The pop group will go on world tour next month.
    Our cricket team has star players who can win the world cup.
    The committee has enjoyed donuts with the tea.
    The Audience was happy with the stage performance.

    These are normal everyday words that ALWAYS refer to a group of people or things.  But call it whatever you want… my points are still valid and need to be addressed if you have any hope of anyone taking you seriously about your claim that poetic language is some kind of proof that our ONE Creator ARE more than one person.

     

     

    August 1, 2021 at 11:42 am#872482
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    It has been amazing to have watched you for over a decade building an entire quite bizarre Biblical doctrine from a single verse here and a single verse there –  each being very generously interpreted to show favor to your cause of course.

    That being said, where does it say it was the Father?  Hebrews 1 only mentions “God”, right?  And to you, “God” is both the Father and the Son, right?  So in your interpretation, where verse 10 is something “God” said about Jesus, how do you know it wasn’t the Jesus part of “God/YHVH Binity” who said those words about himself?  Just curious.

     

    August 1, 2021 at 3:16 pm#872483
    gadam123
    Participant

    Mike: Well, it’s good to know that you have now come to understand that Immanuel means “God IS with us”, and is not an indication that Jesus was God on earth – as you used to argue when you posted here as jammin.

    Hello Mike, thanks for your reply to my post. In fact the name Emmanuel (supposed to be given to Jesus) never appeared in the NT other than Matthew who invented it by misinterpreting the Hebrew scriptures.

    I am dead against that Jesus the man being called as God if I am not mistaken here. Your NT writers created him as more than human, a spirit being as you often call him or even as God outspoken by the Fourth Gospel’s writer. He is equal to God and the life-giver….much more.

    Regarding your questions on Jesus’ Messiahship please come to the appropriate thread if you are so keen on the subject of Messiah.

    But I request you first convince the Trinitarians and Non-trinitarians on your new ideas and come to me on the arguments on Messiah.

    Thanks and peace to you….Adam

    August 1, 2021 at 7:36 pm#872486
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    You

    So no, Jesus is not “God in infinity” nor “God in nature”.   

    Me

    SO YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT HE WAS REALLY BORN, BEGOTTEN, OF THE SAME BEING OF GOD THE FATHER, AS WE ARE THE SAME HUMAN SUBSTANCE AS OUR FATHER AND MOTHER …

     

    SO HOW DO YOU SEE HEBREWS 1?
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

    August 1, 2021 at 9:44 pm#872487
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Again, The One BEGOTTEN Son of God is NOT THE MIGHTY GOD IN PERSON, BUT HE IS THE EVEN SUBSTANCE OF THE MIGHTY GOD. THIS IS WHY JOHN WRITTEN:
    AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”.

    August 2, 2021 at 12:00 am#872488
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Do you see the great deep of waters under the earth? Do you see the foundations of the earth?

    Oh yeah, I see it.

    What is below that? Or does the water go forever and ever and ever?

    Where are the waters below the firmament?  Where are the waters above it?  Heck, where is the firmament, in which God placed the sun, moon, and other lights and set them on appointed circuits over the earth so we could determine times and seasons?  Where are the windows of heaven that God opened in Noah’s day to let the flood waters in from above?

    Wouldn’t it be the sea that is below the firmament. And the waters above is the sky above us. Is there not water in the atmosphere. When you look into the clouds or the atmosphere, it eventually thins out till you reach outer space. There is water there too on some astronomical bodies like planets, moons, asteroids. Water is abundant in space. It is thought that hydrogen was created in the Big Bang and oxygen is released from dying stars.

    August 2, 2021 at 12:24 am#872489
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Father identifies the Son as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth. Enough said.

    I see. So you take a certain view point among others and this nullifies all the clear verses in scripture that say that God created the cosmos through the Son.

    You can’t create something yourself and also be the agent by which you create THROUGH.

    Which is it. Is he the creator or did the creator make all things through him.

    I know which view you hold. But there are a number of scriptures that say God created through him. And notice the first scripture says God and then speaks of his Son.

    Hebrews 1:1-6
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Think about that word. ‘Through’ does not mean ‘source’.  For example. No man comes to the Father except through the Son. This doesn’t mean that the Son is the Father.

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Why bother saying that God created the cosmos through the Son if the Son is the creator. Instead, you would just say that Jesus created the cosmos. Or the Father and the Son created the cosmos together. When it says that God created all things through him, it means it.

    Your whole argument here relies on one interpreation of one verse and ignores the scores of other clear verses.

    You ignore the log and focus on the speck.

    You are hanging off a cliff by one finger regarding this and you want us to think you are secure and safe when in reality you are not secure at all on this teaching.

    August 2, 2021 at 3:18 am#872490
    Berean
    Participant

    The Son has the same name as the FATHER

    read PSALM 24

    The first part of the psalm (v. 1 to 2) shows us the supremacy of God, creator and owner of our earth.

    Verses 3 to 6 describe the conditions for those who want to one day live in the presence of God on his holy hill and place.

    Verses 7-10
    show the pre-entry of Christ as KING of glory (our forerunner) into the Heavenly Holy City.

     

    Just verse 10

    Darby’s English Translation

    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. 

    Hebrew Transliterated2

    4:10

    MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD

    • YHVH 

    TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

     

     

     

    August 2, 2021 at 4:30 am#872491
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  SO YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT HE WAS REALLY BORN, BEGOTTEN, OF THE SAME BEING OF GOD THE FATHER, AS WE ARE THE SAME HUMAN SUBSTANCE AS OUR FATHER AND MOTHER …

    No.  I don’t believe God has both sperm and egg and fertilized Himself to beget Jesus.  Nor do I think God broke off a piece of Himself and placed it in a different pot like we can do with plants.  God brought forth Jesus into existence through creation – as is made clear in these verses…

    Col 1:15…  the firstborn of every creature…

    Rev 3:14…  I am the beginning of the creation by God…

    Prov 8:22…  YHWH created me as the first of His works – even before He created the earth…

    And although Jesus is a created spirit being just like God’s other spirit sons, Jesus was the FIRST, and has the rights of the firstborn.  Also, all those who followed were created by God through Jesus – so in that sense Jesus can be set aside as greater than them, and be poetically called God’s “only-begotten Son” – even though God didn’t literally procreate and beget/give birth to Jesus, and even though God’s other spirit creations are also considered His sons (despite God creating them as opposed to literally giving birth to them).  This is also how Jesus himself explains it…

    John 10:34-36…  Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them gods…then what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

    All of the angels are God’s sons – but Jesus is the only one created by and FOR the Father Himself. In that way, Jesus is the only one who is “set apart as His very own”. All other creations (according to Col 1:16) were also created by God… but through and for God’s firstborn Son.  So in that sense, those other things are not set apart as God’s very own – but belong to both God and Jesus – since God created those things FOR Jesus.

    So Berean, our children share our flesh and blood nature – but that doesn’t make our sons identical to us.  Likewise, all of God’s heavenly sons share His spirit nature – but that doesn’t make any of them identical to God.

    When our children are born, we know much more than them, and are much more powerful than them.  As time goes by, humans become weaker and more forgetful – so there is a point when our children can know more and be more powerful than us.  Not so with God.  God doesn’t weaken or get more forgetful with age.  He was stronger and smarter when He brought His sons into existence, and remains smarter and stronger throughout the ages.  That is why Jesus himself tells us that his Father is greater than he is, and knows more than he does.

    August 2, 2021 at 4:34 am#872492
    Berean
    Participant

    THE SON OF GOD HAS IN HIMSELF THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.

    HE DO ALL THINGS IN HARMONY WITH HIS FATHER.

     

    August 2, 2021 at 4:52 am#872493
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Again, The One BEGOTTEN Son of God is NOT THE MIGHTY GOD IN PERSON, BUT HE IS THE EVEN SUBSTANCE OF THE MIGHTY GOD. THIS IS WHY JOHN WRITTEN:
    AND THE WORD WAS “THEOS”.

    If by “substance” you mean spirit – then yeah, Jesus is made of spirit substance just like his Father, and his Father’s many other spirit sons.  Likewise our children consist of the same flesh and blood substance that we consist of.

    And what John actually wrote was that the logos was a god who was with THE god in the beginning.  Understand?  John wrote about two different gods – one of whom was WITH the other.  But John only called one of them THE god.

    You are correct that the logos was not THE god in person.  And if not THE god in person, then he has no choice but to be a DIFFERENT god who was with THE god.  And that is what John told us.  In fact, John said a few verses later…

    John 1:18…  No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten god, who is in the intimate presence of the Father, he has explained Him.

    See?  There is the one and only Most High God of gods.  Then there are a bunch of the Most High God’s spirit sons, who are also gods in every sense of the word.  Among that bunch of other gods is Jesus, but Jesus is very special because he was the first of those gods to ever be brought forth into existence, and all of the gods who came after him were actually created through and for him.

    Berean, this is exactly what the Bible teaches, and what John was telling us.

    August 2, 2021 at 4:57 am#872494
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  THE SON OF GOD HAS IN HIMSELF THE POWER TO CREATE ALL THINGS.

    God’s firstborn Son has exactly the amount of power and authority that his and our God grants him.  His and our God could absolutely grant Jesus the power to do anything He could do… but Jesus’ God hasn’t granted him that much power.  A very lot of power to be sure, but not that much.

    Jesus even tells us, “the Son can do nothing by himself”, right? (John 5:19)

     

    August 2, 2021 at 5:05 am#872495
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:  Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus?  Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?

    YOU: Carmel: Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE…

    ME: YOU NEVER ASKED THE ABOVE QUESTION BEFORE and  I NEVER ANSWERED IT, Mike.

    WHAT IS THE REASON THEN THAT YOU MADE IT LOOK LIKE I ANSWERED IT BY

    PUTTING MY ANSWER FROM MY LAST POST?

    WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABOVE QUESTION YOU ASKED NOW.

    YOU: Carmel, please just answer the two questions above this time.  Thanks

    NO Mike, not so quick unless we make sure about certain fundamentals.

    THUS, TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY READ AGAIN WHAT YOU ASKED IN THE POST BEFORE THIS ONE:

     

    YOU: God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    ME: Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE:

     

    OK, Mike, there is a HUGE difference between,

    GOD  CAN DO SIMILAR MIRACLES THROUGH ANY ONE OF US,  from 

    GOD DID MIRACLES BY JESUS AND THROUGH OTHERS SCRIPTURALLY.

    NOW, BETWEEN THE PROCESS OF THE OT. AND THE PROCESS OF NT. 

    JESUS TRANSFORMED ALL GOD’S TASKS ON EARTH, PRECISELY

    FROM CARNAL UNDER MOSES LAW TO SPIRITUAL UNDER

    JESUS’ SPIRITUAL LAW, THE FACT THAT

    GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF FOR THE FIRST-EVER TIME ON EARTH WAS EMBODIED  IN JESUS HIS OWN SUBSTANCE 

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH AS A HUMAN, 

    OK, Mike,

    JESUS SERVED THE FATHER  BY BEING HIS UNIQUE CARRIER, HIS UNIQUE ABODE! 

    THE TRIUNE GOD IN FLESH.

    GOD DID LOADS OF MIRACLES IN THE OT. THROUGH HIS SERVANTS WITHOUT BEING AT ALL DIRECTLY IN THEM; SIMPLY, AS HE WAS PRECISELY INDIRECTLY IN THEM BY HIS OWN SPOKEN “WORD” JESUS, THE ABODE OF GOD, AS A SPIRIT, THE ONLY SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND HIS CREATURES

    ON HIS WAY TO BECOME HUMAN. 

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8

    THUS  CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE,

    CAN YOU SEE THAT THE WAY GOD DID MIRACLES

    BY JESUS, IN JESUS, AND FOR JESUS

    WAS A HELL OF A LOT OF  DIFFERENCE Mike! READ:

    John15:22If I had not come,

    and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

    23He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.

    ATTENTION Mike:

    24If I had not done among them

    the works that no other man hath done,

    they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated

    both me and my Father. 25But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law:

    They hated me without cause.

    WHAT A DIFFERENCE Mike BETWEEN

    GOD ‘S WORK BY JESUS, WHO SERVED THE FATHER AS HIS UNIQUE EMBODIMENT,

    AND GOD’S WORK BY JESUS “THE WORD” AS A SPIRIT, SIMPLY THROUGH OTHER SERVANTS ONLY IN/BY THEIR WORK!

    GOD IN THE OT. AS MENTIONED FURTHER UP, WAS NOT EVEN EMBODIED IN ANY OF HIS SERVANTS AS THEY WERE NOT OF HEAVEN BUT

    OF SATANIC EARTH. 

    On the other hand, GOD IN THE NEW TESTAMENT IN JESUS WAS

    ONE WITH HIS OWN SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3,

    WITH HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FROM CONCEPTION OF THE HOLY GHOST

    ALL FROM HEAVEN, AND

    NOTHING OF SATANIC EARTH!

    OTHERWISE, GOD WOULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO SATAN. THIS IS ASSERTED BY JESUS IN

    John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you.

    For the prince of this world cometh,

    and in ME, he hath not anything.

    WHAT A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD’S WORK IN/BY JESUS AND

    GOD’S WORK THROUGH OTHERS SCRIPTURALLY!

    Mike please respect GOD’S WORK and don’t put

    GOD DIRECTLY IN JESUS IN THE SAME BASKET AS

    GOD DIRECTLY IN JESUS, “THE WORD” IN ALL OTHER HUMANS.

    NEVER MIND GOD CAN DO GREATER MIRACLES THROUGH ANYONE OF US, AGAIN:

    UNLESS YOU ACCEPT THAT

    IN THE NEW TESTAMENT ONLY

    GODMAN JESUS

    CAN DO GREATER MIRACLES THROUGH ANY ONE OF US

    HUMANS ON EARTH!

    KEEP IN MIND Mike, THAT GOD THE FATHER IS IN HIS 

    LONGEST REST!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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