Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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July 27, 2021 at 7:29 pm#872404
Proclaimer
Participant
gadam, you make all these allegations and personally I don’t have time to address most of them.
What is your no1 reason why Jesus is not the Christ?
July 27, 2021 at 9:31 pm#872407
gadam123
Participant
gadam, you make all these allegations and personally I don’t have time to address most of them.
What is your no1 reason why Jesus is not the Christ?
Sorry this No 1 question was asked in other thread and was replied by me.
July 28, 2021 at 12:28 am#872409
Lightenup
Participant
Proclaimer,
Israel is a he/him also.
Exodus 4:22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”
YHVH is a He/Him. That does not mean YHVH is only one person. Israel is also a he/him in some contexts and obviously Israel is not just one person.
July 28, 2021 at 4:16 am#872411
Berean
Participant
THE SONSHIP OF CHRIST IS NOT A METAPHOR
Many Bible scholars today teach that Jesus only became the “Son of God” at His incarnation, often citing Luke 1:35 where it stated that, “…that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
But when presented with Daniel 3:25 where the king of Babylon saw inside the fiery furnace with the three Hebrews a fourth man, and exclaimed, “…the form of the fourth is like the Son of God,” then the Bible scholars explained that while they believe that the fourth man was indeed Christ during His pre-incarnate state, but His title “Son of God” was only applied to Him in a proleptic sense, or in other words, only in the anticipation of His Sonship in the future as if it already existed, similar to His title as the “Lamb,” which He possessed even before the foundation of the world (see Rev. 13:8).
Obviously, the title “Lamb” was a metaphor, but what about the title “Son of God?” Was this also just a metaphor?
In this short study, I’ll present why the Sonship of Christ could not be a metaphor, because the Bible teaches that an actual process of divine birth took place.
Let me begin with this verse in Jeremiah 8:9, “The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD; AND WHAT WISDOM IS IN THEM?”
The verse strongly suggests that to reject the word of God is be devoid of wisdom; therefore, “wisdom” is from the word of God.
The apostle Paul wrote that “…Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:24); therefore, Christ was the personification of the wisdom of the Father, hence, “His name is called ‘The Word of God’” (Rev. 19:13).
But Christ was already called “the Word” even prior to His incarnation.
“IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same IN THE BEGINNING with God.” (John 1:1,2)
Unlike in Genesis 1:1 where the word “beginning” referred to the event which pertained to the creation of our world, the “beginning” in John 1:1 instead referred to the event pertaining to the Word, which was described by John as the “Word” being “with God,” and the “Word was God.”
I shall present how the Scriptures explain each other particular to this, but before that, let me first establish the timeframe of this “beginning” in John 1:1 as predating the works of creation because the Word was already with God, and was God before “all things were made..” (v.3).
This is key in understanding in order to correctly find that particular “beginning” in the Scriptures, which John alluded to.
Can we find a “beginning” that predates the works of Creation where Christ was already there with God, and was God? Absolutely! We can find this “beginning” in the book of Proverbs chapter 8.
Incidentally, this chapter speaks about the “wisdom” of God.
“Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?” (Prov. 8:1)
And it’s not so hard to see in the following verses that “wisdom” of God in this narrative was Personified.
Wisdom declared:
“Unto you, O men, I CALL; and my voice is to the sons of man.” (v.4)
“Hear; for I WILL SPEAK of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.” (v.6)
“For MY MOUTH shall speak truth…” (v.7)
“All the words of MY MOUTH are in righteousness…” (v.8.)
“Receive MY INSTRUCTION…” (v.10)
“I WISDOM DWELL WITH PRUDENCE…” (v.12)
“…I AM UNDERSTANDING; I HAVE STRENGTH.” (v.14)
“I LOVE them that love me…” (v.17)
“I LEAD in the way of righteousness…” (v.20)
“That I MAY CAUSE those that love me to inherit substance; and I WILL FILL their treasures.” (v.21)
Can wisdom love those that love wisdom if this was not referring to a Person?
But who alone is the Personification of the wisdom of God?
“For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom.” “…Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.” (1 Cor. 1:22,24)
Christ alone is the Personification of both the power and wisdom of the Father; therefore, Proverbs 8 was speaking of Christ, but as you shall now see, it spake of Him in His preincarnate state.
“‘THE LORD POSSESSED ME’ ‘IN THE BEGINNING’ of his way, ‘BEFORE HIS WORKS OF OLD.’” (Prov. 8:22)
Here was the “beginning” where we can find the existence of Wisdom, which was the Word of God personified, which predated “the works of old,” which referred to the works of creation; thus, we can safely connect this narrative in Proverbs 8 particularly beginning with verse 22 all the way to verse 30, with John 1:1-3. In other words, these first three verses in John had an allusion to Proverbs 8:22-30.
As mentioned already, this “beginning” had to do with the Word, and was not referring to the works of creation as in Genesis 1:1.
In fact, Wisdom Himself (which was Christ) declared the event that transpired concerning Himself at that “beginning.”
Christ said, “THE LORD POSSESSED ME’ ‘IN THE BEGINNING’ of his way…”
The event was when the LORD possessed Him, or as one being acquired.
Plus……go To
https://m.facebook.com/groups/HeavenlyTrioRevealed/permalink/782306212438234/?ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_activity
July 28, 2021 at 5:48 am#872412
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@gadam123
Hi Adam,
You are in great danger to accept the coming Antichrist as your Messiah.
Be aware of that.
Now I will take my break.
I just had to warn you.
Yahweh the Most High God loves you. He gave His Son Jesus Christ for your salvation.
July 28, 2021 at 3:16 pm#872417
gadam123
Participant
I just had to warn you.
Yahweh the Most High God loves you. He gave His Son Jesus Christ for your salvation
Hi Danny thanks a lot for your warning and blessings.
July 29, 2021 at 4:51 am#872433
Danny Dabbs
Participant
Hi Adam,
I am sorry to have forgotten to say God bless to you.
May God bless you and your family!
July 29, 2021 at 6:30 pm#872437
gadam123
Participant
Hi Adam,
I am sorry to have forgotten to say God bless to you.
May God bless you and your family!
Thank you so much Danny.
July 30, 2021 at 5:17 am#872444
Danny Dabbs
Participant
Hi Adam,
I got to be honest with you.
First I didn’t want to wish you a blessing because you
do reject our Lord Jesus as the Messiah.
But then I realized that we should be good to all people.
I’m sorry that I lied to you and that I was harsh on you.
We shouldn’t be that way.
But you got to understand that your constantly rejecting
our Lord Jesus as the Messiah did aggravate me.
I’m sorry.
I hope and pray you will accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah.
God bless you.
August 1, 2021 at 4:47 am#872463
Danny Dabbs
Participant
@gadam123
Hi Adam,
Just remember, Yahweh the Most High God loves you.
He gave His Son Jesus Christ for your salvation.
Blessings,
Danny
August 1, 2021 at 6:48 am#872464
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Mike,
YHVH is our ONE creator and YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son.
So the TWO of them together are our ONE Creator? Is our ONE Creator both your Father AND your brother? Will you state for the record that you consider yourself to be both the daughter AND the sister of our ONE Creator?
You seemed to have missed this one…
Based on the actual words that the Apostles of Jesus prayed in Acts 4 (as opposed to your personal suppositions about their innermost thoughts), it’s abundantly clear that they didn’t consider our ONE Creator to be both Father and Son. We know this because they clearly and distinctly identified the Son as someone OTHER THAN the Creator… namely, His holy servant Jesus.
How do you rectify this scriptural fact with your understanding?
LU: Regarding heaven, yes heaven is above both parts of the world all at the same time.
You answered the first part… that heaven is above you – as in over your head, up in the sky. The second part was asking if heaven was also above Proclaimer at the same time – as in over his head and up in the sky from his perspective. Your answer hearkens back to your table analogy, where the table is above both the top and bottom of the ball underneath it. But my question has to do with if heaven is above – as in up in the sky and over the head of A PERSON who is standing on the bottom of the ball. Maybe this will help…
Revelation 4:1-6… before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here… At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it… Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders… around the throne were four living creatures…
Okay, so the angel told John to come UP here – to a place that is ABOVE him. In that place was the throne of God, surrounded by 24 other thrones, and 4 creatures. This is the description of that place taken directly from the scriptures…
As you can see, God’s throne surrounded by the 24 other thrones is ABOVE (as in over their heads up in the sky) everyone on earth – even those in Sheol. Below is the world you imagine – which isn’t based on a single scripture. And I’m asking the simple question of how God’s throne surrounded by the 24 other thrones can be above you (as in over your head up in the sky) and also be above Proclaimer (as in over his head up in the sky) at the same time…
Kathi, I’m asking if God’s throne can be above you (as in up in the sky over your head) at the same time it can also be above Proclaimer (as in up in the sky over his head). Do you see the dilemma yet? Do you see how there is no dilemma in the first image – which was commissioned by PhD Hebrew expert Michael Heiser to show what the Bible actually teaches – even though he believes in the spinning ball earth?
Now on top of this, I ask you to think about the very meaning of “heliocentric system”. It means that the earth and our entire system is CENTERED around the sun. Everything revolves around the SUN – not the earth that God created first and populated with living things. Why would that be? Why would God make the earth just one of a bunch of balls revolving around the sun – which He didn’t even create until day 4 – and called a “light” in the firmament?
LU: Any other easy questions that I can help you with?
Unfortunately, none of my questions to you are easy. They expose you and make you declare things like, “I, Kathi, am both a daughter AND a sister of our ONE Creator!” They make you admit that your understanding of our ONE Creator being TWO people doesn’t align with the Apostles’ understanding of our ONE Creator and His holy servant Jesus.
But that’s a good thing, right? Anything to bring us closer to the truth of the scriptures is a good thing.
August 1, 2021 at 7:10 am#872465
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Ephesians 3
…God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
So who created all things? The answer is right there in the verse you quoted… “God, who created all things”. And note how Jesus is once again distinguished as someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things – even in the verse YOU quoted! If Jesus was God, then it would just say God created everything – and Jesus would be included in that word God. But just like dozens of other times in the scriptures, Eph 3 once again distinguishes “God” from “Jesus Christ”. Get it? Jesus is clearly and undeniably someone OTHER THAN “God”.
(Also remember that the word “by” – which you continue to use because you think it means something it doesn’t – is actually the word “through”. Remember also the undeniable words of Eusebius: He who creates is ONE, and he through whom the thing is created is ANOTHER.)
So Berean, who is the ONE that created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them? (Read the Apostles’ prayer in Acts 4 for the answer… and then BELIEVE that answer.)
August 1, 2021 at 7:14 am#872466
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Is it scriptural that God did miracles through His holy servant Jesus? Is it scriptural that God has done miracles through many of His other servants throughout the Bible?
Carmel: Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE…

Carmel, please just answer the two questions above this time. Thanks.
August 1, 2021 at 7:28 am#872467
Berean
Participant
Mike
Jesus Christ IS THE almighty SON OF GOD , HIS BEST WORKER.
JESUS IS GOD AND MAN .
DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND MIKE?
August 1, 2021 at 7:40 am#872468
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: Matthew knew as well as modern scholars do that Isaiah 7:14, quoted in Matthew 1:23, is talking about the birth of a child, likely Isaiah’s own son, whose name would remind the wavering people that “God is with us” and will defeat our pagan adversaries.
Well, it’s good to know that you have now come to understand that Immanuel means “God IS with us”, and is not an indication that Jesus was God on earth – as you used to argue when you posted here as jammin.
As for the rest…
Luke 22… 25 Then Jesus asked the two disciples, “Why can’t you understand? How can you be so slow to believe all that the prophets said? 26 Didn’t you know that the Messiah would have to suffer before he was given his glory?” 27 Jesus then explained everything written about himself in the Scriptures, beginning with the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets.
33The two disciples found the eleven apostles [including Matthew] and the others gathered together.
44 Jesus said to them, “While I was still with you, I told you that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.”
45 Then he helped them understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them: The Scriptures say that the Messiah must suffer, then three days later he will rise from death.
Adam, will your coming messiah have to suffer before he is given his glory? Will he be killed, and then rise from death? Tell me about him. We know that he will be a regular human born of a regular woman in the regular fashion. What else? What will he do? How will he affect the earth and the nation of Israel? What do you know about him from the OT? Give me some short notes to explain what you are expecting.
In the meantime, I accept and believe that Jesus continued to teach his disciples after his resurrection, and showed them all the things in the OT that were said about him thousands of years in advance. Matthew was one of those who received this teaching directly from Jesus – and so I believe Matthew had a much better grasp on OT prophecies about the messiah than you and your Jewish scholars have – since he learned these things directly from Jesus himself.
August 1, 2021 at 7:54 am#872469
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Jesus Christ IS THE almighty SON OF GOD , HIS BEST WORKER.
JESUS IS GOD AND MAN .
DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND MIKE?
Very difficult to understand, I’m afraid. You are simultaneously saying that Jesus is God’s best worker, and that he IS the very God who he’s the best worker for. You are saying that God is a man. These are indeed very difficult things for any rational person to understand.
In my last post, I used a verse that YOU quoted to show you that, not only was it God who created all things, but that Jesus Christ is listed as someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things.
As a response, you hit me with this completely unscriptural idea that the worker IS the very God he works for.
If you were to use scriptures and make logical statements, perhaps it would make it easier for me to understand.
August 1, 2021 at 8:00 am#872470
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: If I state the facts and someone is on the wrong end of the facts…
Well that’s among the things we’re trying to determine here. It’s clear that you don’t want to directly address my previous posts because you know that anything you say will expose your previous erroneous statements. But facts don’t care about your embarrassment, so here we go again…
King David said the sun runs a circuit above the earth.
1. Does this statement make King David a liar? YES or NO?
August 1, 2021 at 8:46 am#872471
mikeboll64
Blocked
These are the questions I asked…
Now please tell us about that liar King David. Did he lie about the sun intentionally? Or was he lying about the sun because he was deceived? Who deceived him? And how do you know he was lying about the sun in the first place? Who told YOU the truth about the sun, thereby proving that King David was a liar?
And this is the drivel with which you responded…
The heavens is the sky which is above my head in New Zealand and anywhere I travel around the globe. So there is the heavens and the earth.
Likewise with the moon, you see it is a globe too. If you stood on the surface, the good news is you wouldn’t slide off that either. Even if the surface was made of soap.
Same goes for the sun. Of course you would have to travel at night otherwise your shoes would melt.
If the earth was a floating peperoni pizza and hades was inside the pastry so to speak, then what is below the pastry? The heavens right? Boom!
So the heavens is above but also below in the flat earth model at least. Doesn’t make sense right? Whereas in the globe model, it is always above.
Where in all of that nonsense can I find a single answer to any of the questions I asked you? 🙄
Proclaimer: If the earth was a floating peperoni pizza and hades was inside the pastry so to speak, then what is below the pastry? The heavens right? Boom!
Where do you get the idea of a FLOATING pizza? The Biblical earth isn’t floating, but is fixed on pillars and foundations so that it cannot be moved… all according to actual scriptures.
As for what’s below the earth, the Bible says it’s water… specifically referred to as “the great deep” in scripture. Remember, God separated the waters above from the waters below with the firmament, and then caused dry land to appear in those waters below. We are not told what – if anything – is below the waters that are below the earth… only that below the earth is water.
Exodus 20:4… Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Heaven is above us. Earth is below heaven. Water is under the earth. Like this…
Do you see the great deep of waters under the earth? Do you see the foundations of the earth? Do you see that God’s throne is above every person on the earth – even those in Sheol? Do you see the windows of heaven, which God opened to let waters in to flood the earth at the same time He burst open the fountains of the great deep to let the waters below flood the earth? Noah’s earth was flooded by the waters above the firmament and the waters below it at the same time.
Now compare to the earth you imagine we live on…
Where are the waters below the firmament? Where are the waters above it? Heck, where is the firmament, in which God placed the sun, moon, and other lights and set them on appointed circuits over the earth so we could determine times and seasons? Where are the windows of heaven that God opened in Noah’s day to let the flood waters in from above?
And… as I’ve been asking for a while… how can you look up above your head into the sky towards God’s throne AT THE SAME TIME that Kathi is looking up above her head into the sky towards God’s throne?
(Don’t think I haven’t noticed how both you and Kathi tried to divert from the true meaning of my question. She tried to say even the bottom of the ball is under the table, and you try to say that wherever YOU go, heaven is beyond the sky above you. But my question pertains to how both of you can look up into the sky from opposite sides of a ball and both be looking towards God’s throne in heaven. Maybe one of you will address the actual question this time. Because if heaven is UP from your perspective and UP from Kathi’s at the same time, then it is also DOWN from your perspective and DOWN from hers at the same time, right? God’s throne surrounded by 24 other thrones of elders would be above your head AND below your feet at the same time.)
Proclaimer: So the heavens is above but also below in the flat earth model at least. Doesn’t make sense right? Whereas in the globe model, it is always above.
So hopefully now you can see the error of your statement. It is actually the opposite. In the Biblical model, heaven is up and waters are below. In your model, heaven is both above and below you at the same time it is both above and below Kathi on the opposite side of the ball.

August 1, 2021 at 9:38 am#872472
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Proclaimer,
Israel is a he/him also.
Exodus 4:22“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23“So I said to you, ‘Let My son go that he may serve Me’; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn.”’”
YHVH is a He/Him. That does not mean YHVH is only one person. Israel is also a he/him in some contexts and obviously Israel is not just one person.
Okay, so God can poetically refer to a nation of thousands as “my son” and use the pronoun “he” as He also poetically calls this nation of thousands His “firstborn”. We know that this is poetic language (like calling a seafaring vessel “she”) because we know that Israel isn’t God’s firstborn in any literal sense of the word – nor is a nation of thousands literally a singular son or a singular he. Here’s another example…
Hosea 11… 1When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son. 2But the more I called Israel, the farther they departed from Me. They sacrificed to the Baals and burned incense to carved images…
The latter plural forms make it clear that although God begins with the poetic singular, He and we all know that He’s talking about more than one person, right?
Now what we have to do is find this same type of thing concerning YHWH. We need to find clear scriptural examples whereby we can know for certain that YHWH truly is a combination of more than one person, and back that up with how every single instance of plural pronouns concerning Him (them?) are strictly poetic, because the writer and his readers clearly know and understand that YHWH is a plural Godhead.
Can you do that, Kathi? Because short of doing that, we have no choice but to conclude that each and every time a Bible writer referred to YHWH with singular pronouns, that writer did so because he knew YHWH to be a singular entity – not a plurality.
Understand? Since we KNOW that Israel is a nation of thousands, we also know that God using singular pronouns for them on occasion is poetic, and not literal. Likewise we must first come to KNOW that YHWH is a plurality in order to know that every time any writer of scripture used singular verbs and pronouns to describe the plural God, it was merely poetic language, not meant to literally mean that God was a singular being.
I’m interested to see what you’re able to find. Let us know as soon as you have something.
August 1, 2021 at 9:50 am#872473
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Regarding your question:
So the TWO of them together are our ONE Creator? Is our ONE Creator both your Father AND your brother? Will you state for the record that you consider yourself to be both the daughter AND the sister of our ONE Creator?
You seemed to have missed this one…
Based on the actual words that the Apostles of Jesus prayed in Acts 4 (as opposed to your personal suppositions about their innermost thoughts), it’s abundantly clear that they didn’t consider our ONE Creator to be both Father and Son. We know this because they clearly and distinctly identified the Son as someone OTHER THAN the Creator… namely, His holy servant Jesus.
How do you rectify this scriptural fact with your understanding?
Yes YHVH who is our one creator, who is both God and Lord, Father and Son, are my Father and my Brother.
What is abundantly clear is that the “believers” in Acts 4 identified Jesus as the anointed one spoken about in Psalms 2 and that Jesus, the anointed one belongs to YHVH.
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