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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,681 through 22,700 (of 25,925 total)
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  • July 25, 2021 at 11:05 am#872373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Danny:  I will answer your posts/questions to me after my break.
    I need to study some more.

    👍

    July 25, 2021 at 2:19 pm#872374
    gadam123
    Participant

    Jesus was NOT a spirit while he was still on earth for 30 more days after his resurrection.
    Jesus MUST BE a spirit now – or he couldn’t see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God – which he clearly has done. (John 3:3-5; 1 Cor 15:50)
    Are both of these things true – according to scripture, Adam?  Yes or No?

    Hi Mike, you can quote any number of verses to support your strange logics which is often being done by you on this Forum.  The writer of John’s Gospel differs from your logics of spiritual body as per John 20:

     A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.”

    The resurrected Jesus was able to enter closed doors and at the same time was having the same body with crucifixion marks as per this water. Whereas Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh and blood as it will be decayed or destroyed before resurrection.

    Sorry I can’t agree with your news ideas on most of the topics here. There ends our arguments on this resurrection.

    July 25, 2021 at 2:37 pm#872375
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam, I am going to resurrect you to one of the highest princes in heaven, and here is my sign so you know you can trust me… a woman will one day give birth to a son.

    … wouldn’t you wonder a little bit about the validity of God’s sign – seeing it is an occurrence that happens thousands of times every single day?

    God’s sign was that a VIRGIN would give birth.  And a virgin did give birth.  That’s what made Jesus’ birth a fulfillment of prophecy.

    I had already replied number of times on the so called myth of Virgin birth of Jesus on this Forum. Please check the appropriate thread as we had already deviated much on this thread. The sign for king Ahaz was not the young woman who was already with child but the child. “Before the child knows enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken”.  Please check proper Hebrew Bible commentary on Isaiah 7 & 8 chap for better understanding.

    There ends the matter..

    July 25, 2021 at 3:33 pm#872376
    gadam123
    Participant

    The resurrected Jesus was able to enter closed doors and at the same time was having the same body with crucifixion marks as per this water. Whereas Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh and blood as it will be decayed or destroyed before resurrection.

    Sorry please read the “writer” in the highlighted place.

    July 25, 2021 at 8:43 pm#872379
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I remember years ago a teacher saying it was a young girl that would concieve, but that due to the age, you would assume she would be a virgin. Of course it depends on how the culture understood it. Sounds like they understood it that way. If not, then so what. A young girl will conceive. Happened before and will happen again.

    And I can’t be bothered looking the word up and its usage.

    But I bet the meaning is virgin.

     

    July 26, 2021 at 3:57 am#872382
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:   Paul mentions only spiritual body which will be not of flesh…

    You just destroyed your own argument.  The resurrection body will NOT BE FLESH.  Why?  Because FLESH can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God.

    Exhibit A:  After his resurrection, Jesus said he DID have FLESH.

    Exhibit B:  FLESH can neither see, enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God.

    Exhibit C:  Jesus dwells in the kingdom of God right now in a glorious NEW body.

    Conclusion:  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact FLESH body in which he died, but can no longer have that FLESH body because FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of God… hence his new glorious body.

    Adam:  …you can quote any number of verses to support your strange logics which is often being done by you on this Forum.

    Strange logics?  Refute them scripturally then.  If they are so strange, it should be easy to do, right?

     

     

    July 26, 2021 at 4:34 am#872385
    gadam123
    Participant

    Conclusion:  Jesus was raised from the dead in the same exact FLESH body in which he died, but can no longer have that FLESH body because FLESH cannot enter the kingdom of God… hence his new glorious body.

    So you chose to ignore the contradiction between Paul and Gospel writers (John and Luke)?

    July 26, 2021 at 4:55 am#872386
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  “Before the child knows enough to refuse evil and choose good the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken”.

    So then the sign is that someday, a normal woman will give birth to a normal child in the normal fashion, and within, let’s say 10 years of that birth, some unspecified “land” on the earth will be somehow “forsaken”?

    That could apply to anyone!  Look at America now.  Or Australia.  Or just about any “land” on the earth right now.  An argument could be made that all of these lands are currently being forsaken – which means ANY child born within the last ten years could be your coming messiah, right?

    Adam:  I had already replied number of times on the so called myth of Virgin birth of Jesus on this Forum. Please check the appropriate thread as we had already deviated much on this thread.

    I have little interest in most of what you post in the first place, and no interest in tracking your comments down in a bunch of different threads.  I have limited time to be on HN, and so one thread is my limit. If you don’t want to talk about it here, then don’t comment on it here.

    Adam:  Please check proper Hebrew Bible commentary on Isaiah 7 & 8 chap for better understanding.

    You mean like this, from Barnes…

    A virgin – This word properly means a girl, maiden, virgin, a young woman who is unmarried, and who is of marriageable age… The etymology of the word requires us to suppose that it means one who is growing up to a marriageable state, or to the age of puberty. The word maiden, or virgin, expresses the correct idea. 

    The word, in the view of the Septuagint translators, therefore conveyed the proper idea of a virgin. The Chaldee uses substantially the same word as the Hebrew. The idea of a “virgin” is, therefore, the most obvious and natural idea in the use of this word.

    The word refers to a young girl who is of marriageable state – the age of puberty.  These girls were ALL assumed to be virgins – because the ancient Israelites didn’t live in the age we do now, where elementary school children are taught how to masturbate, and having sex as a 12 year old is pushed as normal and enlightened behavior.  In fact, it’s not so long ago that we still used the phrase “sweet 16 and never been kissed” in America – because the well accepted and general assumption was that 16 year old girls (approaching marriageable/puberty age) were chaste, and were VIRGINS.

    The fact that the word refers to a young UNMARRIED woman means that it also refers to a VIRGIN.

    Or maybe you prefer the words of Hebrew scholar Matthew Poole, who directly addresses YOUR eagerness to have the word NOT mean virgin…

    A virgin; strictly and properly so called. The Jews, that they may obscure this plain text, and weaken this proof of the truth of Christian religion, pretend that this Hebrew word signifies a young woman, and not a virgin. But this corrupt translation is easily confuted,

    1. Because this word constantly signifies a virgin in all other places of Scripture where it is used…

    2. From the scope of this place, which is to confirm their faith by a strange and prodigious sign, which surely could not be not a young woman should conceive a child, but that a virgin should conceive, and bear a son.

    That last part is just basic common sense – which is why I made that argument before ever reading any commentaries on it.  The bottom line is that it would not have been ANY KIND OF sign for a regular woman to give birth to a regular child in the regular manner.  To suggest anything different is a weak attempt to “obscure this plain text, and weaken this proof of the truth of Christian religion” – as Poole aptly points out above.

    Adam:  There ends the matter..

    Agreed.  The matter is resolved in that it wouldn’t be any kind of a sign unless the word was understood as referring to a “virgin” – which it clearly and obviously did. (See LXX)

    July 26, 2021 at 5:06 am#872387
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  So you chose to ignore the contradiction between Paul and Gospel writers (John and Luke)?

    You’ve shown no contradiction.  You continually spout off about supposed contradictions in the NT, but you don’t ever actually show any.  Yes, Jesus was resurrected in flesh like John says.  Yes, Jesus must now be spirit in heaven, like Jesus himself says (also in John 3).  Where is the contradiction?

    July 26, 2021 at 5:22 am#872388
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  But I bet the meaning is virgin.

    You would win that bet.

    Now please tell us about that liar King David.  Did he lie about the sun intentionally?  Or was he lying about the sun because he was deceived?  Who deceived him?  And how do you know he was lying about the sun in the first place?  Who told YOU the truth about the sun, thereby proving that King David was a liar?

    Come on, now… enquiring minds want to know the answers to these questions.  People who stand for truth and call out inaccuracies on this forum demand that you stand and defend your pompous and condescending lectures about how YOU are the peacemaking truth warrior around here – calling out all liars you come across.

    Stand and defend your previous claims.  You have called me and King David LIARS.  Either stand and defend those actions – or admit that it was YOU who was wrong this entire time… and then apologize to me and King David profusely.

    It was YOU, not me, who brought this subject back to the front and center, even doubling down on your condescending remarks about my character.  Now YOU need to stand and defend yourself.

    WAS KING DAVID LYING ABOUT THE SUN, Proclaimer?  YES or NO?

     

    July 26, 2021 at 5:35 am#872389
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    @Lightenup

    Why did you run away, Kathi?  There are questions pending (I may have just answered my own question).

    Who is our ONE Creator?

    Who is our ONE Creator according to the Apostles who prayed in Acts 4?  (Obviously I refer to the words of their prayer as recorded by Luke, and not to your own supposition regarding what they “understood/meant”.)

    Is heaven ABOVE you (as in “over your head”, “up in the sky”, “you must look UP away from the ground to see it”)?

    Is heaven also, at the same time, ABOVE Proclaimer in NZ?

     

    July 26, 2021 at 8:32 am#872391
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    YHVH is our ONE creator and YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son.

    Regarding heaven, yes heaven is above both parts of the world all at the same time.

    Any other easy questions that I can help you with?

    July 26, 2021 at 8:35 am#872392
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Ephesians 3

    [8]Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    July 26, 2021 at 9:35 am#872394
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    Again Mike, NOT QUITE PRECISE:

    Mark 6:4 And Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and in his own house, and among his own kindred.

    5And he could not do any miracles there,

    only that he cured a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.

    6And he wondered because of their unbelief,

    and he went through the villages round about teaching.

    CAN YOU SEE IT MIKE?

    Read more scriptures:

    Mark 10:51And Jesus answering, said to him:

    What wilt thou that I should do to thee?

    And the blind man said to him: Rabboni, that I may see.

    52And Jesus saith to him:

    Go thy way, thy faith hath made thee whole.

    And immediately he saw, and followed him in the way.

    Luke 1:45 And blessed art thou that hast believed,

    because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

    Matthew 9:28 And when he was come to the house,

    the blind men came to him. And Jesus saith to them,

    Do you believe, that I can do this unto you?

    They say to him, Yea, Lord. 29Then he touched their eyes, saying,

    According to your faith, be it done unto you. 

    Luke 8:43And there was a certain woman having an issue of blood twelve years, who had bestowed all her substance on physicians, and could not be healed by any. 

    44She came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment; and immediately the issue of her blood stopped. 

    45And Jesus said: Who is it that touched me? And all denying, Peter and they that were with him said: Master, the multitudes throng and press thee, and dost thou say, Who touched me? 46And Jesus said: Somebody hath touched me; for I know that virtue is gone out from me.47And the woman seeing that she was not hidden, came trembling, and fell down before his feet, and declared before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was immediately healed. 48But he said to her:

    Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go thy way in peace.

    49As he was yet speaking, there cometh one to the ruler of the synagogue, saying to him: Thy daughter is dead, trouble him not. 50And Jesus hearing this word answered the father of the maid:

    Fear not; believe only, and she shall be safe. 

    Luke 7:6And Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent his friends to him, saying: Lord, trouble not thyself; for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof. 7For which cause neither did I think myself worthy to come to thee;

    but say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 

    8For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers: and I say to one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doth it. 

    9Which Jesus hearing, marvelled: and turning about to the multitude that followed him, he said:

    Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith, not even in Israel. 

    Mike I made my point

    I BELIEVE!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    July 26, 2021 at 3:31 pm#872395
    gadam123
    Participant

    So then the sign is that someday, a normal woman will give birth to a normal child in the normal fashion, and within, let’s say 10 years of that birth, some unspecified “land” on the earth will be somehow “forsaken”?

    It’s not some unspecified “Land” Mike please read carefully the texts and infer. Please don’t  be like the writer of Matthew ;

    When Matthew says that the Holy Family taking refuge in Egypt was the fulfillment of Hosea 1:1, “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” quoted in Matthew 2:15, he knew darn well that this was not what the prophet Hosea had in mind. No, as any fool can see, Hosea chapter 11 is all about the Exodus of Israel, God’s beloved child, and how the people have been disobedient ever since that time. Nothing about any Messiah. Certainly nothing about Jesus Christ. Likewise, Matthew knew as well as modern scholars do that Isaiah 7:14, quoted in Matthew 1:23, is talking about the birth of a child, likely Isaiah’s own son, whose name would remind the wavering people that “God is with us” and will defeat our pagan adversaries. And so he had. But had God nothing else to say through this sacred text? Sure he did, and Matthew saw in the passage an esoteric prediction of Jesus’ conception.

    July 26, 2021 at 5:56 pm#872396
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yet you’ve judged me, and King David, as liars. Hmm… 🙄

    Not true.

    If I state the facts and someone is on the wrong end of the facts, then I haven’t judged the person. I have only stated truth and truth does show some people up. It’s up to you to judge yourself. I don’t want to be your judge. And I will continue to state truth and facts. Regardless of how anyone feels. Facts don’t care about feelings. It might seem harsh, but one cannot hide truth just because of someone’s feelings.

    July 26, 2021 at 8:47 pm#872399
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    YHVH is our ONE creator and YHVH is God and Lord, Father and Son.

    Regarding heaven, yes heaven is above both parts of the world all at the same time.

    Any other easy questions that I can help you with?

    God is ‘He’ / ‘Him.

    Not ‘Them / They”.

    He is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ is the Son of this God.

    Jesus said to them,
    “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.

    July 26, 2021 at 8:48 pm#872400
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Now please tell us about that liar King David.  Did he lie about the sun intentionally?  Or was he lying about the sun because he was deceived?  Who deceived him?  And how do you know he was lying about the sun in the first place?  Who told YOU the truth about the sun, thereby proving that King David was a liar?

    The heavens is the sky which is above my head in New Zealand and anywhere I travel around the globe. So there is the heavens and the earth.

    Likewise with the moon, you see it is a globe too. If you stood on the surface, the good news is you wouldn’t slide off that either. Even if the surface was made of soap.

    Same goes for the sun. Of course you would have to travel at night otherwise your shoes would melt.

    If the earth was a floating peperoni pizza and hades was inside the pastry so to speak, then what is below the pastry? The heavens right? Boom!

    So the heavens is above but also below in the flat earth model at least. Doesn’t make sense right? Whereas in the globe model, it is always above.

    As for liars, are you not the one calling multitudes liars? Like NASA, pilots, astronauts, cosmonauts, kiwinauts, satellite providers, my friend’s dad who has been to the South Pole, and all those that have seen the curve of the earth?

    July 27, 2021 at 6:47 pm#872402
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: When Matthew says that the Holy Family taking refuge in Egypt was the fulfillment of Hosea 1:1, “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” quoted in Matthew 2:15,

    he knew darn well that this was not what the prophet Hosea had in mind.

    No, as any fool can see,

    Hosea chapter 11 is all about the Exodus of Israel,

    God’s beloved child,

    ME: JESUS CHRIST, PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT IN

    ABRAHAM’S,  ISAAC’S, AND JACOB’S CONCEPTIONS :

    BEFORE  ABRAHAM WAS I AM…

    THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB, THE GOD OF THE LIVING ALL IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN 

    ETERNAL LIFE

    HIDDEN IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE HEBREW PRPOCESS, THE SPIRIT OF LUCIFER, 

    THE LOST SHEEP OF

    ISRAEL, IN THE TRUTH

    JESUS CHRIST.

    HIDDEN SLAIN LIKE A LAMB …..Rev.13:8 IN JACOB, THE FACT THAT 

    ISRAEL IS AN ENIGMATIC SPIRITUAL NAME  GIVEN BY AN ENIGMATIC BEING! 

    YOU: and how the people have been disobedient ever since that time.

    ME: WHILE JESUS CHRIST AS A SPIRIT “THE WORD” WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB IN THE ENTIRE RACE OF THE HEBREW PEOPLE UP TO THIS DAY AND FOR ETERNITY!

    YOU: Nothing about any Messiah. Certainly nothing about Jesus Christ

    ME: ACCORDING TO ALL THE HEBREW PEOPLE AND YOU

    TOTALLY STAGNATED  CARNALLY MINDED SPIRITUALLY IMMATURE and STABURN PEOPLE!

    WITH EVERY RESPECT! 

    Exodus 4:22And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:

    Israel is my son, my firstborn. 

    23I have said to thee:

    Let my son go, that he may serve me,

    and thou wouldst not let him go:

    behold I will kill thy son, (SATAN) thy firstborn. 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    July 27, 2021 at 7:05 pm#872403
    gadam123
    Participant

    ACCORDING TO ALL THE HEBREW PEOPLE AND YOU

    TOTALLY STAGNATED  CARNALLY MINDED SPIRITUALLY IMMATURE and STABURN PEOPLE!

    I think that is a blatant allegation on the people of the Book (Hebrew Bible)

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