Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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July 10, 2021 at 7:08 pm#871924
gadam123
Participant
Here is God’s plan through the messiah. It is a process, not an instant fix.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
I agree that the above statements are based on the NT and is a Christian interpretation on Jesus as Messiah. But these logics are not supported in the Hebrew Bible on the Messiah stating that all (men) have died in Adam and will rise in Jesus the supposed Messiah. Human beings are created as mortals irrespective of whether they have sinned or not. The concept of original sin and Vicarious Atonement are purely the Christian creation and not based the Hebrew religion. Resurrection and after life are rarely mentioned in the Tanakh forget about Messiah’s involvement in that process.
Jesus ruling on behalf of God is another interpretation of NT writers stating that he is now ruling spiritually and may come back for the second time to rule as King of the Jews is another strange idea for a Messiah which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible.
July 10, 2021 at 7:27 pm#871925
Berean
Participant

Gadam

Jesus ruling on behalf of God is another interpretation of NT writers stating that he is now ruling spiritually and may come back for the second time to rule as King of the Jews is another strange idea for a Messiah which is not supported in the Hebrew Bible.
Me
Jesus will not be THE KING OF THE JEWS but OF THE SAINTS OF ALL NATIONS
👇
DANIEL 7
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which will come out of the earth.
[18] But the saints of the Most High will take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.
……
21] I saw, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them;
[22] Until the Ancient of days come, and judgment be rendered to the saints of the Most High; and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.
…..
And he will speak great words against the Most High, and will wear out the saints of the Most High, and will consider changing times and laws: and they will be delivered into his hand until a time and times and the division of time.
[26] But judgment will sit, and they will take away its dominion, to consume it and destroy it to the end.
[27] And the kingdom and the rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers shall serve and obey him.
July 10, 2021 at 8:34 pm#871937
Proclaimer
Participant
The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.” Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He.”
People had expectations with the coming of the messiah.
And yes, not all things are written in the Old Testament. But let’s look at what is there. We can agree it talks about this messiah.
But is it not logical to assume that when the messiah has come, he would help enlighten people just as the woman suggested to Jesus?
This is what’s happening and it’s a process.
God has a plan. Trust his plan. But many are impatient because they are small minded.
Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
Those who are patient and await the return of the messiah will not be disappointed. But that day will come like a thief in the night to those who are not watching. Many people do not care because they don’t have the patience, but would rather get some glory from the world now. They sell their souls for rewards now. The matters of eternity are far from their hearts. But as it happens, the time will come.
July 10, 2021 at 8:41 pm#871938
Proclaimer
Participant
The messiah according to some is a king who restores the kingdom of David.
But that is not a savior or Christ, that is a king.
Jesus is the king. But he is also the saviour and messiah.
What do you think the law was about when a lamb was sacrificed for the sins of the people.
That was only temporary. Are people going to sacrifice a lamb without blemish for all eternity to cover all sins past, present, and future?
Or is God efficient and make one sacrifice to cover sin for all time?
The latter according to the gospel.
This is good news.
But some give the messiah no room for this great gift of salvation to the Jew first and then the Gentiles.
Their version of Christ is very small because they reject the true messiah and God’s great plan of redemption to the Jew, Gentile, and creation. They are really only interested in an earthly kingdom and a man like King David.
God is not like a man with earthly expectations.
He is the Father of all.
July 11, 2021 at 2:16 am#871941
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam……Proclaimer’s last post is right, Jesus was God the fathers sacrifice for the Penalty of eternal death for our sin. He is the sacrificial lamb of God, that God offered, why, because God requires a payment for sin. He couldn’t just forgive us without that payment being made, and seeing none of us sinner could make that payment and still live, because it was a eternal death sentence, He offered up his own son as our payment , ” we were brought with a price”, The death of Jesus was that price tag that had to be paid or we would “ALL PARISH”. because all have sinned.
Adam have you let those ignorant Jew’s persuade you differently? They rejected and killed Jesus, and will you now listen to them?. They are not the experts on the Hebrew texts as they claim to be. They to this very day reject Jesus and by that they also God the Father who sent him, are you now also rejecting Jesus as the true Messiah too? How Sad. Think about what your doing Adam.
peace and love to you and yours Adam……..gene
July 11, 2021 at 2:41 am#871942
GeneBalthrop
Participant
To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth. Not even one scripture.
Peace and love to you all and yours…….gene
July 11, 2021 at 4:14 am#871945
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: So how was the Word WITH God?
Was the Word created through the Word?
“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”
Whenever we see the phrase “all things” or the word “everything” in scripture, we must run it through the 15:27 test, which is…
1 Cor 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
Surely everyone can understand the concept. Scripture clearly does say that God put everything under Jesus – but to take that 100% literally would mean that God placed even Himself under His holy servant Jesus, right? And we know that’s not the case, right? So in this case, the word “everything” EXCEPTS God Himself.
Another example…
Acts 4:24
When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
But “Sovereign Lord” is one of the things in heaven, right? And if we took the word “everything” 100% literally, it would mean that He made Himself, right? So we run it through the 15:27 test in our minds… “now when it says ‘everything‘, it is clear that this does not include Sovereign Lord Himself, who is clearly EXCEPTED from the ‘everything’ in heaven that Sovereign Lord created.”
So now let’s do yours…
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Running it through the 15:27 test, we have, “when it says ‘all things‘, it is clear that this does not include the Word himself – who clearly wasn’t made through himself.” You see? The Word is EXCEPTED from the phrase “all things” in this case. And it goes without saying that God Himself is also excepted – even though it says “all things” were made by the Word – and God is a thing.
If that doesn’t help, then just refer to scripture…
Proverbs 8:22… YHWH created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.
Rev 3:14… These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God…
Col 1:15… Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature…
Oh, and you can include all of the scriptures that say YHWH made “everything” in heaven and earth too – because although YHWH Himself would be excepted in those verses, Jesus would not be. So whether you prefer created, begotten, brought forth, the fact that Jesus’ origin is from ancient times (Micah 5:2), or even just the fact that Jesus is God’s SON – the fact remains that Jesus is one of the “everything” in heaven and earth that God made.
July 11, 2021 at 4:33 am#871946
mikeboll64
Blocked
Adam: I find this is complete deviation from Hebrew concept of Messiah who was meant to be human being and not a god or spirit being…
In what way, SPECIFICALLY, is it a “deviation”? The messiah was indeed a human. But like I’ve told you before (and it fell on deaf ears), God can create human children of Abraham from stones – which would mean that these HUMANS preexisted as ROCKS. Understand yet? Being a human doesn’t mean you didn’t already exist as something other than human. God could today cause Michael the Archangel to be born of a human woman in Detroit, if He chose to. And that would mean this HUMAN child once preexisted as an ANGEL.
Besides, it’s clear that even from ancient times, this wasn’t going to be any old ordinary human…
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
What ordinary human has ever been born of a virgin? So your claim that the Jews were always expecting just a normal, everyday human as their messiah is flawed – because they had always been expecting something out of the ordinary.
July 11, 2021 at 4:56 am#871947
Danny Dabbs
Participant
Hi Adam,
You: It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.
Me: I’m not a Trinitarian.
I haven’t made up my mind yet. I’m still learning.
All I’m sure of and what I believe is that Yahweh is the Most High God.
And Jesus Christ is His beloved Son.
July 11, 2021 at 5:07 am#871948
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike…….Even if we agree with you interpretation , about the word “ginomai ”…
No, no, no. There is no “even if”, Gene. The word means to come into existence, and the word is right there in John 8:58. Jesus said, “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed”.
Gene: …sure Jesus existed before Abraham, in the plan and will of God…
Gene, think it out…
1. Jesus spoke about Abraham.
2. The Jews said, “You aren’t even 50 years old, so how could you know Abraham – who died a thousand years ago?”
3. Then Jesus responded, “What do you mean I’m not even 50 years old? To tell you the truth, before Abraham was even a glimmer in his Daddy’s eye, I was already alive!”
Of course I’m paraphrasing very liberally, but that is the gist of the discussion that culminates with 8:58. Do you understand? The Jews accused Jesus of being less than 50 years old, right? But Jesus didn’t agree with them, did he? Instead he told them that he was older than Abraham.
Now you’re free to PRETEND that Jesus was secretly talking in riddles about how he “existed” in the plans of God before Abraham dwelt on earth – but you know in your heart of hearts that Jesus was clearly saying that he – as a living entity – had been in existence before Abraham was even born. You fight what you know in your heart of hearts because you have a personal DESIRE for Jesus to have been exactly like you are today. You think it somehow gives you the “power” you need to overcome all the things that Jesus overcame, because “he was exactly like me in every single way!” Maybe it’s time to stop pretending, Gene. Maybe it’s time to acknowledge that Jesus was clearly talking about how old he was as compared to Abraham.
Gene: there you have the truth Mike , now the ball is in your court, even if you use “Ginomai” it doesn’t change a single thing.
Again, it’s not a case of “even if I use ginomai”, Gene. The word “ginomai” is right there in the text for all to see. And it’s not hard to search the definition of the word if you wanted to.
Gene: Next you maintain that , Jesus is a ANGELIC being, an Archangel right? Well then according to scripture he will not be in the kingdom of God, that will come on this earth. Need poof?
Heb 2:5….For unto the Angels has he ” NOT”, put in subjection the world to come of whereof we speak.
I’m not “maintaining” anything of my own accord, Gene. The word in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures ALWAYS and ONLY means “messenger”. It is English translators who choose to use the word “angel” when the MESSENGER in question is thought to be a spirit entity. And since Jesus is definitely a spirit entity again (flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God), and since Jesus is still delivering messages from his God (Rev 1:1), Jesus is, by very definition, an angel of God.
Btw, Heb 2:5 doesn’t say anything about the “kingdom of God”. And if you read it in context, starting with verse 2, you’ll get a better understanding of what the author is saying.

July 11, 2021 at 5:12 am#871949
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: The celestials angels are under His direction. (Rev.19)
Michael the Archangel also has angels under his direction. Satan also has angels under his direction. Having other angels under your direction is not an indication that you are not also an angel.
It’s simple: Angel = spirit messenger of God. Jesus is a spirit messenger of God. Any questions?
July 11, 2021 at 5:20 am#871952
mikeboll64
Blocked
Carmel: GOD AS A SPIRIT INITIATED CREATION AFTER HE ESTABLISHED A UNIQUE CARRIER SPECIFICALLY FOR HIMSELF, AS BEING A SPIRIT, THOUGH HE EXISTS, CANNOT ACTUALLY LIVE WITHOUT A CARRIER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD, WHO OCCUPIES ETERNALLY THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE, LACKS MOVEMENT WITHOUT A CARRIER. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE MORE CREATURES HE CREATES, THE MORE HE LIVES AND MOVES, AND EVERY NEW CREATURE FOR GOD IS BOTH A NEW LIFE AND A NEW MOVEMENT.
You make it sound as if God is a virus, who needs to infect carriers to transmit his disease. Fortunately, none of what you wrote above has any basis in scripture whatsoever. God has a body of His own just as His first creation, Jesus, has his own body.
Carmel: NOW, THIS CARRIER HAD TO BE EQUAL TO GOD IN EVERY SENSE,
PRECISELY HIS SON!
If that is the case, God failed… because Jesus is NOT equal to his and our God in every sense. He tells us himself that his God is stronger than him, and knows more than he does.
Jesus’ own words falsify your theory.
July 11, 2021 at 5:23 am#871953
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Jesus was referring , “to his “PRESENT”, EXISTENCE, Was more “IMPORTANT’ then Abraham to them is or was.
Keep saying it, and I’ll just keep correcting you.
Jesus did NOT say, “Before Abraham I am”. Jesus DID say, “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, I existed.”
July 11, 2021 at 5:49 am#871954
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: It is true, as a man Jesus cannot do anything of himself, the Father works in him ….
And in the beginning Jesus worked for the creation of angels and worlds according to the will of the Father and by the DIVINE Power inherited from the Father (JOHN1: 1-3)
Everything you said above means that Jesus is lesser than his God, who does the works through Jesus, and who gives Jesus the power to do what he does. And that, of course, is 100% scriptural, since we know that God is the one who created, but did that through Jesus. We also know that God is the one who did the healing and miracles when Jesus was on earth… through Jesus:
Acts 2:22… Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
God is the one who did the works. God did those works through His holy servant Jesus. Are you able to understand those scriptural words? And if you can, then now consider how the KJV translates that same verse…
Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.
Can you see it now? Can you see that when the KJV uses the word “by”, they really mean “through” – or “by means of”? This is a very good verse from which you can learn that lesson, because even though they use the word “by”, you can still clearly see that it was GOD who actually did the miracles, signs and wonders, right?
In Egypt, Moses didn’t do signs and wonders. God did signs and wonders through/by Moses. In the past, the prophets didn’t come up with words of God to speak to the fathers. God spoke to the fathers through/by the prophets. In 30 AD, Jesus didn’t do miracles on earth. God did miracles on earth through/by Jesus. And in the beginning, Jesus didn’t create the heavens and the earth. God created the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus.
There is only one Creator. That Creator is YHWH, the Most High God of all the many other gods. And that one Creator made the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus. Not “Jesus made the heavens and the earth”, but “GOD made the heavens and the earth through/by Jesus”.
That’s why you’ll see scriptures that say all things were created through/by Jesus… but you’ll never see a scripture that says, “Jesus created…” – unless you included the verse where Jesus fashioned a whip out of cords.
July 11, 2021 at 5:58 am#871955
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Jesus Said us WHEN He WAS on earth that he came DOWN from HEAVEN
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(John 6:38)
WHY YOU cannot beleive what JESUS Say about what he Say WHEN He Say That he came DOWN from HEAVEN ???
That is an excellent question. Gene, why do you call him “Lord, Lord”, but not believe what he says?

July 11, 2021 at 6:16 am#871956
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: As another example.
‘adam is the Hebrew word for ‘man’.
So Eve was adam, but she is not Adam.
In other words, she is part of mankind, but she is not Adam the first man.
Adam is an identity. adam is a nature. Either can claim the latter. Adam can claim both. He is Adam (The Man) and he is adam (mankind).
Now you only need to take it that one step farther… If Eve is adam – as you rightly assert – then it is equally true that Eve is AN adam. If Rin Tin Tin is dog, then it’s equally true that Rin Tin Tin is A dog. If Mr. Ed is horse, then it is equally true that Mr. Ed is A horse.
You with me so far? Can you refute a single word I’ve said so far? Assuming not, then…
If Gabriel is angel, then it is equally true that Gabriel is AN angel. And if Jesus is god, then it is equally true that Jesus is A god.
Eve is not THE Adam, but she is adam – which undeniably means she is AN adam.
Jesus is not THE God, but he is god – which undeniably means he is A god.
And that is what the scriptures literally teach: Jesus is A god who was with THE God in the beginning. Jesus was existing in the form of A god but then emptied himself and took on the form of A man. The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because, by saying he was the Son of God, he was making himself out to be A god – when they “knew” he was just A man like them.
July 11, 2021 at 6:22 am#871957
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: A word , any word, is not a person, it is the EXPRESSIONS of a person…
Gene, in ancient Abyssinia, the king would not have a direct audience with his subjects. Instead the king had a spokesman, who would speak the decrees of the king to the people. That spokesman was called “Kal Hatze” – which means “The Word of the King”.
Gene, was “The Word of the King” in ancient Abyssinia a person or not?
July 11, 2021 at 6:42 am#871958
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth. Not even one scripture.
That’s not true, but even if it were, what would it mean? We didn’t know anything about Gabriel’s existence prior to his visit to Daniel, right? Does that mean that Gabriel either didn’t exist, or did absolutely nothing until he went to speak to Daniel – just because we aren’t given a play-by-play accounting of his entire lifetime?

July 11, 2021 at 7:01 am#871960
Berean
Participant
Gene
To all… NO one has produced “any” scripture showing “ANY” activity of Jesus Pryor to his birth on this earth. Not even one scripture.
Me
ONE
John 1 :3
All things were made by him(Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.
HIM IS A PERSON, AND THIS IS JESUS CHRIST

Hebrews 1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO he made the worlds;
July 11, 2021 at 10:27 am#871962
Proclaimer
Participant
If Jesus Christ is the Messenger of YHWH, then there is plenty.
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John 1 :3

All things were made by him(Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO he made the worlds;

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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

John 1 :3

All things were made by him(Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Hebrews 1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO he made the worlds;

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God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO he made the worlds;