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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • July 8, 2021 at 11:13 am#871873
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Again you show how much you don’t “really” believe what Jesus himself said.  You say he was the one who created everything that exists,  but he said this,  “the son of man” can do “NOTHING ” Of himself”, the Father that is “IN” HIM, “He”  does the works”.
    Seems again you and our lord Jesus have different opinions on the subject of who creates things.

    ME: IN THE ABOVE Gene, YOU PURPOSELY  CORRUPTED THE SCRIPTURE TO PLEASE AND QUENCH YOURSELF!

    YOU MIXED PART OF John 5:19  WITH part of John 14:10

    Now Here is the RIGHT scripture of John14:10 Gene:

    John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself.

    But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 

    Now Let’s see what Jesus revealed to us in John5:18-23!

    John 5:Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work. 18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,

    making himself equal to God.

    Gene, the Jews concluded that JESUS IS EQUAL TO GOD! Jesus aware of what’s in their mind made it clear and said:

    19Then Jesus answered, and said to them:

    Amen, amen, I say unto you,

    the Son cannot do anything of himself,

    but what he seeth the Father doing:

    In the above Jesus simply made it clear to the Jews that THOUGH JESUS IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER, as they concluded, HE IS NOT READY TO ANTICIPATE AND DO SOMETHING  DELIBERATELY BY HIMSELF, BUT ALWAYS EQUALLY AND IN HARMONY WITH THE FATHER.

    THIS IS THE PERFECT HARMONY THAT ETERNALLY EXISTS WITHIN THE DEITY! KEEP ON READING Gene,

    for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth

    in like manner.

    Can you see the truth Gene, when it comes to the SPIRITUAL TASK OF GOD BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON?

    NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID AS YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN A TRIUNE GOD.

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU Gene ARE  A TRIUNE BEING

    IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD, OBVIOUS

    IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE FATHER IS ONLY A SPIRIT, AND THE ONLY BODY GOD POSSESSES IS JESUS’. “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.

    HENCE, IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE CLEAR THAT WHATSOEVER THE FATHER DOES  REGARDING HIS SPIRITUAL WORK, JESUS, IN LIKE MANNER DOES AS WELL REGARDING THE PHYSICAL/CARNAL WORK, THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH! WELL CLEAR IN 

    John17:2 As thou hast given him POWER OVER ALL FLESH,…

    OK GENE? THE FATHER, SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT,

    CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF  REGARDING THE FLESH, BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS! THE SON OF MAN!

    no Father no Son, no Son no Father!

    the head of Christ is God!

    WHAT IS A HEAD WITHOUT A BODY,

     A SKULL! DEAD!

    AND WHAT IS A BODY WITHOUT A HEAD?

     A TRUNK! DEAD!

    CARRY ON READING Gene, 

    20For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he show him,

    that you may wonder.

    AGAIN AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, A PERFECT HARMONY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON!

    KEEP ON READING Gene, for God’s sake!

    21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

    OK Gene, can you for a change accept the truth?

    IN THE ABOVE  JESUS SIMPLY DECLARED THAT AS

    THE FATHER RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE TO THE SPIRITUAL CREATURES LIKE

    SOULS,

    THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, 

    THE SON IN LIKE MANNER RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL REGARDING THE FLESH CREATURES, 

    EVEN GIVES LIFE TO HIMSELF! 

     THE SON OF MAN!

    OK, Gene??? 

    READ MORE Gene Pleas!

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man,

    (REGARDING THE FLESH)

    but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    AS ONLY THE SON, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, DIED, AND GAVE

    ETERNAL LIFE TO THE FLESH.

    23That all men may honour the Son, (IN THEIR PHYSICAL EMBODIMENTS, THE TEMPLES OF GOD ) as they honour the Father. (IN THEIR SPIRITUAL EMBODIMENTS, THE SONS OF GOD, GODS)  

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE  THE SON OF MAN, and THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH EMBODIMENT IN

    JESUS CHRIST and in HIM the entire human race!

    GODMAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    July 9, 2021 at 1:51 am#871882
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Jesus said this also,

    Matt. 23:9….And call no man your father upon the earth“for one is your Father, which is in heaven”.

    Seems we and Jesus have the same Father, so are we God’s too?,  tell us Carmel are you a God, seeing Jesus said  you and Jesus have the same Father, according to Jesus.  So tell us what part of the above “quoted” scripture do you not believe,  and if you do believe what Jesus said, then why do you and Other “trinitarians” go about always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are constantly.

    You and all like you who have turned “the “MAN” Jesus into your God, are committing “IDOLATRY ”  and will suffer the same fate as all IDOLATERS do.  2 this 2,  is your fate unless you repent. 

    What I quoted in the pryer post is exactly right just as this post is also.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    July 9, 2021 at 2:43 am#871883
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Carmel…..Jesus said this also,

    Matt. 23:9….And call no man your father upon the earth“for one is your Father, which is in heaven”.Seems we and Jesus have the same Father, so are we God’s too?,  tell us Carmel are you a God, seeing Jesus said  you and Jesus have the same Father, according to Jesus……

    Me

    “for one is your Father, which is in heaven”

    1 -Gene what IS “HEAVEN” for You and bliblicaly speaking ?

    2- Jesus Said us WHEN He WAS on earth that he came DOWN from HEAVEN

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(John 6:38)

    WHY YOU cannot beleive what JESUS Say about what he Say WHEN He Say That he came DOWN from HEAVEN ???

     

    July 9, 2021 at 5:04 am#871885
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……why can’t you believe What Jesus said who is “our” “heavenly Father ? Nor what Jesus said about who “the “ONLY ”  “TRUE GOD” WAS.  Why not let’s start with that first,  Then we can move on to this scripture,  “but unto us (true believers) we have only “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between men and God,  “THE MAN” Jesus Christ.  By the way that was said after Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven.

    Berean you trinitarians are all deceived by Satan, and do his work of deception for him.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    July 9, 2021 at 8:30 am#871889
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Your answer shows Once again that you are evading the truth … You deny the divinity of Jesus

    A uniquely human Jesus cannot save humanity.
    In truth Jesus Christ is divine-human … But you do not believe it.

    So did Jesus come down from heaven or not?

    Yes or no. ???

    July 9, 2021 at 8:37 am#871890
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    That God the Father is the only true God is not disputed by anyone on this thread ….
    but we are debating about Jesus, and he himself told us that he came from above that he came down from heaven from where HE WAS BEFORE with God His FATHER….

    July 9, 2021 at 11:52 pm#871895
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. Thanks for putting that succinctly. Gene has never understood that. Even after many years.

    July 9, 2021 at 11:59 pm#871896
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Berean, unfortunately non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others use the same text for negating your claim of Jesus’ divinity or as God.

    You lack understanding.

    God is a person. An identity. God is the Father of all.

    Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. He is the firstborn of God.

    It’s that simple. It is what scripture teaches.

    Where people get confused has to do with identity vs nature.

    As another example.

    ‘adam is the Hebrew word for ‘man’.

    So Eve was adam, but she is not Adam.

    In other words, she is part of mankind, but she is not Adam the first man.

    Adam is an identity. adam is a nature. Even can claim the latter. Adam can claim both. He is Adam (The Man) and he is adam (mankind).

    Eve is only one of these, not both.

    It’s like that with Jesus.

    He has divine nature, yes, because God is his Father. But he is no God himself.

    He is divine, but he is not THE divine.

    THE Logos was theos means, the Logos was divine.

    Then we read that he emptied himself, and came in the flesh.

    He took on human nature. Humbled himself before God. Obeyed God. Died and rose from the grave. And now is at the righthand of God interceding for us.

    July 10, 2021 at 2:51 am#871898
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..A word , any word,  is not a person,  it is the EXPRESSIONS  of a person,  God’s Words express HIMSELF, they are not the expression of “ANYONE ELSE”,  but HIMSELF.  The exact same applies to all,  without exception,  no one is or CAN BE YOUR WORD, not now or ever can be. GOD the Father is ONE and His words are his and his alone.  If I or Jesus , “QUOTE” those words to you, or anyone else , those word are “NOT MY WORDS”, OR ANYONE ELSES WORDS, THEY ARE God the Father himself’s  words alone.   In the beginning the Spirit the Spirit who was GOD,  moved over the waters and “GOD” SAID,  “SPOKE HIS OWN WORDS” “let there be light and it was so”.  Jesus was not even there, nor was present either.

    you cannot separate God the Father from his own words, by saying it was Jesus speaking things into existence , that is one of the biggest lies ever told.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    July 10, 2021 at 4:16 am#871899
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene  

    IF I UNDEESTAND WELL WHAT YOU SAY …

    JOHN WOULD NOT USE THE WORD “HIM” in verse 3
    if it was the word that God speaks.
    Verse 3 of John 1 shows that it is a person …. no ???

    All things were made by HIM him; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.

     

     

    July 10, 2021 at 4:51 am#871900
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……“the word was God” not Jesus , why?,  because GOD and his word are one and the same person,  “in “the” “beginning”  was the ‘word who was God,”. not Jesus ,  It was God the Father who said let there be light, not The “MAN” Jesus,  Jesus didn’t even exist then,  show us one scripture where Jesus ever said he himself created anything,  or God did anything “through” or by the power of Jesus .  People can’t even go to Jesus without the Father (GOD) drawing them to him, according to Jesus.

    But then again you truly do not believe Jesus, or what he himself said or you would already know that right?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    July 10, 2021 at 5:03 am#871901
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  why don’t you understand the word GOD, is not “any person” it’s a “relationship” anyone can have with anything that exists.  The LORD our GOD, is Yehovah. Yehovah is the “PERSON” our GOD “IS”. 

    Peace and and love to you and yours………gene

    July 10, 2021 at 5:47 am#871902
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Gene,

    John 1:14 clearly identifies the Word as Jesus, who is the only begotten of the Father.

    “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    July 10, 2021 at 9:12 am#871903
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Berean……“the word was God” not Jesus , why?,  because GOD and his word are one and the same person,  

    Me

    Gene, WE Can Never see thath in The Bible

    On the other hand, it is written in Revelation 19:13

    His eyes (OF Jesus)were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

     

    In Revelation 19:13 it is indeed about Jesus (his return to chatter the nations)

    His eyes (OF Jesus)were as a flame of fire, ….

    compare this passage with CHAPTER 1

    And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

     

    and his eyes were as a flame of fire;. 

    WE find this in CHAPTER 1 AND 19

    AND this about Jesus EYES…

    and his name is called The Word of God.  

     

    July 10, 2021 at 10:01 am#871905
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Amen Danny.

    His NAME is The Word of God. He was in the beginning WITH God. It is written down in order for us to believe.

    Gene is free to believe this or reject it. His first line of defences however is the rejection of free will. So he cannot even choose to believe according to his own doctrine. Someone has done a number on him. His mind is imprisoned.

    July 10, 2021 at 2:05 pm#871906
    gadam123
    Participant

    Amen Danny.

    His NAME is The Word of God. He was in the beginning WITH God. It is written down in order for us to believe.

    Gene is free to believe this or reject it. His first line of defences however is the rejection of free will. So he cannot even choose to believe according to his own doctrine. Someone has done a number on him. His mind is imprisoned.

    It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    I really feel sympathy for brother Gene as he is fighting a lone battle to defend his unitarian doctrines but it’s quite difficult here as the NT is diversity on the Christology than unity and it supports more on preexistence of Jesus than his mere human existence.

    This is the problem I visualize here.

    July 10, 2021 at 3:52 pm#871908
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    Let me educate you.  Saying ‘amen’ to something that someone said is a way to support what they said. It is not an agreement of things outside of what they said in that moment.

    July 10, 2021 at 3:56 pm#871909
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I really feel sympathy for brother Gene as he is fighting a lone battle to defend his unitarian doctrines but it’s quite difficult here as the NT is diversity on the Christology than unity and it supports more on preexistence of Jesus than his mere human existence.

    This is the problem I visualize here.

    Let’s apply some simple logic here. This is a forum. On planet earth, there are as many opinions as people. It is logical that a forum will draw people of opposing views on things to test them out. Iron sharpens iron. Of course, the longer debates usually involve people who are stubborn and are unable to learn. People in agreement rarely debate in a forum.

    Further, even among those who are in unity, there will still be people of varying maturity and wisdom.

    Here is God’s plan through the messiah. It is a process, not an instant fix.

     For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    July 10, 2021 at 5:32 pm#871918
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I should also add that many here do not disagree with Gene over his view that there is one true God including myself. Yes Trinitarians will debate that.

    However, many disagree with gene over his doctrine about the origin and nature of the Son. He ignores many scriptures on this and regularly adds and takes away from the verses in question.

    July 10, 2021 at 6:54 pm#871922
    gadam123
    Participant

    Let me educate you.  Saying ‘amen’ to something that someone said is a way to support what they said. It is not an agreement of things outside of what they said in that moment.

    Hi Proclaimer, I like your honesty and I know that you are only agreeing to Danny on a particular comments on the  preexistence of Jesus.

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