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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • July 6, 2021 at 10:27 am#871846
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: What You Say IS not written in The Bible….

    BUT IT IS WRITTEN

    AND THE WORD WAS GOD 

    NOT A GOD 

    There are none so blind as those who willingly choose not to see.

    1808: “and the Word was a god“ – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
    1822: “and the Word was a god“ – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)
    1829: “and the Word was a god“ – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)
    1863: “and the Word was a god“ – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)
    1864: “and a god was the Word” – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London
    1879: “and the Word was a god“ – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979)
    1885: “and the Word was a god“ – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)
    1911: “and [a] God was the word” – The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, by George William Horner.[17]
    1958: “and the Word was a god“ – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);
    1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
    1975: “and the Word was a god“ – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

    It would appear that what I say IS INDEED written in the Bible.  In plenty of Bibles, actually.  These 11 are a short list.  And even more importantly, it is written in the very FIRST Bible that used indefinite articles (“a”, “an”) like we do in English… 2000 years ago… by translators who lived WHILE the Greek language of that time was still being spoken.

    Berean, how many Gods (capital “G”) do you think there are?

     

    July 6, 2021 at 10:30 am#871847
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: NOT CREATED BUT BEGOTTEN

    What do you think begotten means?  It means a new life has come into existence… one that didn’t exist before he was begotten/brought forth/given birth/created/came into being, etc.

    Who is our ONE Creator?

    July 6, 2021 at 2:27 pm#871848
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike.

    Created is defined by this criteria.

    1. Made by God
    2. Through the Word

    So how was the Word WITH God?

    Was the Word created through the Word?

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Or was the Word begotten of God?

    And we were created and later begotten. So are we created twice?

    July 6, 2021 at 5:23 pm#871850
    gadam123
    Participant

    Alway remember Mike , Satan wants to always make Jesus appear to be “different” then we are , and his ministers do the same,  that is why they make him out to be a God.  The idea of a “PREEXISTING ” , JESUS is also another of his deceptions also.  It all works to move Jesus away from his human brother and sisters.  He does it through his doctrines of “SEPARATION “,  making Jesus appear different,  destroying our “FAITH” in the power of GOD the Father, to work in us “EXACTLY” as He did in The human Jesus, by the “Exact” same way.  So he produced all these false teachings about Jesus , by his servants the trinitarian’s  Mike read 2 Ths 2.  It’s all there brother. That man of sin , is the false “image” of Jesus, Which turns the “Image ” of Jesus into a “PREEXISTING ” GOD.

    Hi brother Gene, this is the problem with the many non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others who claim that Jesus was a god as per John 1:1 and he was first created by God in the beginning. So they believe that Jesus was PREEXISTING with God as a god or a spirit being before his birth as a human.  This is the confusion created by the NT writers which is visible in the verses John 1:1, John 8:58, Col 1:15-17, Rev 3:14 and so on and so forth.

    I find this is complete deviation from Hebrew concept of Messiah who was meant to be human being and not a god or spirit being or a godman as many believe here.

    Thanks and peace to you….Adam

    July 7, 2021 at 1:56 am#871856
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..I completely agree with that,  many force the text to say what it is not actually saying,  but with the guidance of the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH” given to those God has chosen , the truth will come forth.  Satan has done a good job of twisting the truth of God’s words by false translators , to disguise the truth about “the “man” Jesus the anointed one of God.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………..gene

    July 7, 2021 at 2:56 am#871857
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…….Even if we agree with you interpretation , about the word “ginomai ”  , where does that say he existed as a sentinel being of any kind before his birth on this earth?  sure Jesus existed before Abraham,  in the plan and will of God, the “man” Jesus was God’s whole purpose for all of “MANKIND ‘S ” existence  , He was GOD’S PURPOSE FOR ALL OF HUMANITY, before Abraham or anyone ever existed ” IN” , the WHOLE human race, even before ADAM .

    JESUS is the most “IMPORTANT ”  OF ALL MANKIND , because he is the ultimate plan of what God had in mind for his whole physical creation . Everything God created was for his human creation, including Jesus, as the first to achieve that Goal of God’s plan and purpose for the whole human race.

    Therefore the “MAN” Jesus was and is the head , the first, the firstborn human being  to be raised from the dead and inter into eternal life from mankind.  He is and was ” before ”  Abraham ever came into existence, far more “IMPORTANT ”  to all humanity then anyone is , except GOD The Father is> , there you have the truth Mike , now the ball is in your court, even if you use “Ginomai” it doesn’t change a single thing.

    Next you maintain that , Jesus is a ANGELIC being, an Archangel right?  Well then according to scripture he will not be in the kingdom of God, that will come on this earth.  Need poof?

    , Heb 2:5….For unto the Angels has he ” NOT”, put in subjection the world to come of whereof we speak.

    peace and love to you and yours.……….gene

     

    July 7, 2021 at 2:58 am#871858
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    If for you Jesus only created a whip, well you have to worry …

    July 7, 2021 at 3:34 am#871859
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Jésus IS not a CREATED Angel but the creator, (Col.1)prince, cheaf OF the Angels…(Rev.12;Mat.24)

    The celestials angels are under His direction. (Rev.19)

    See Mathiew 24

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

    Rev.19

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    July 7, 2021 at 4:16 am#871860
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…..I completely agree with that,  many force the text to say what it is not actually saying,  but with the guidance of the “SPIRIT OF TRUTH” given to those God has chosen , the truth will come forth.  Satan has done a good job of twisting the truth of God’s words by false translators , to disguise the truth about “the “man” Jesus the anointed one of God.

    Hello brother Gene, thanks for your agreement on my post. You can blame Satan or the Translators but I see clearly how the very writings of NT completely deviated from Hebrew Bible on the Messiah by making him a hypostatic union with God and preexisting before his birth. You can not win this unending debates with so called non-trinitarians who make Jesus a god and a divine being as the NT writers created much havoc to their readers. Hope you will find this truth one day.

    Thanks and peace to you….Adam

    July 7, 2021 at 4:46 am#871861
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    You can not win this unending debates with so called non-trinitarians who make Jesus a god and a divine being as the NT writers created much havoc to their readers. Hope you will find this truth one day. 

    Me

    Yes Jesus IS a divine being AND one day you will see that it is the truth if you are sincere.

    Jesus IS divino/human like Paul Say It

    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 

    For 👇

    in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 

    Amen!

    🌈

    July 7, 2021 at 4:55 am#871862
    gadam123
    Participant

    in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Hi Berean, unfortunately non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others use the same text for negating your claim of Jesus’ divinity or as God.

    I hope you too will notice the problem of this Colossians’ writer who is much favorable to Arian/JW non-trinitarians.

    July 7, 2021 at 5:09 am#871863
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Me

    Arius believed that Jesus was begotten by the Father. He was right, but he (the papists) was falsely accused of saying that Jesus was created.

    JW Believes He Is A Created Angel, And This Is FALSE

    July 7, 2021 at 5:49 am#871864
    gadam123
    Participant

    Arian theology holds that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.[3][a][4] who was begotten by God the Father.[1] The Arian concept of Christ is based on the belief that the Son of God did not always exist but was begotten within time by God the Father, therefore Jesus was not co-eternal with God the Father.[1][c] Arianism holds that the Son is distinct from the Father (and therefore subordinate to Him)

    Hope this is in line with Arian non-trinitarians

    July 7, 2021 at 8:38 am#871865
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    You forget or do not know that the divine nature (SUBSTANCE) of the Father has no beginning, and IT IS THE SAME FOR THAT OF THE BORN SON And therefore his filiality with the Father HAS A BEGINNING (Today I am begotten (Heb. 1) BUT NOT ITS SUBSTANCE …. THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

    July 7, 2021 at 10:37 am#871866
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Jesus is a god because he is one of God’s spirit sons. 

    All of God’s spirit sons are gods. 

    Jesus is the first one that God brought forth into existence.

    Mike, I’m afraid your conclusions are not quite right!

    There are endless God’s spirit Sons!  AD EXTRA

    BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD’S UNIQUE SPIRIT SON AD INTRA!

    JESUS CHRIST!

    GOD AS A SPIRIT INITIATED CREATION AFTER HE ESTABLISHED A UNIQUE CARRIER SPECIFICALLY FOR HIMSELF, AS BEING A SPIRIT, THOUGH HE EXISTS, CANNOT ACTUALLY LIVE WITHOUT A CARRIER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT GOD, WHO OCCUPIES ETERNALLY THE ENTIRE INFINITE EXISTENCE, LACKS MOVEMENT WITHOUT A CARRIER. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE MORE CREATURES HE CREATES, THE MORE HE LIVES AND MOVES, AND EVERY NEW CREATURE FOR GOD IS  BOTH A NEW LIFE AND A NEW MOVEMENT.

    NOW, THIS CARRIER HAD TO BE EQUAL TO GOD IN EVERY SENSE,

    PRECISELY HIS SON!

    AS GOD COULD NOT ABIDE IN SOMETHING LESS THAN HIMSELF. BUT ONCE HE ESTABLISHED A SPIRIT/MEDIATOR BETWEEN HIM AND HIS CREATURES,

    HIS ETERNAL ABODE, HIS ETERNAL HOUSE, IN

    HIS SON

    JESUS CHRIST,

    GOD FROM GOD, and LIGHT FROM LIGHT,

    IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR GOD THE FATHER

    THE SOURCE AND THE LIFE OF ALL TO ABIDE

    IN ALL THINGS, NO MATTER WHAT AND WHOM, EVEN IN SATAN’S HEART 

    LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT.

    GOD POSSESSES HIS PARTICULAR UNIQUE ATTRIBUTES WHERE HE COULD MULTIPLY HIMSELF, AND BILOCATE HIMSELF AS MUCH AS HE WANTS, WITHOUT DIMINISHING THE LEAST IN ANY WAY HIS STRENGTH.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    July 8, 2021 at 1:57 am#871868
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Again you show how much you don’t “really” believe what Jesus himself said.  You say he was the one who created everything that exists,  but he said this,  “the son of man” can do “NOTHING ” Of himself”, the Father that is “IN” HIM, “He”  does the works”.
    Seems again you and our lord Jesus have different opinions on the subject of who creates things.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    July 8, 2021 at 2:59 am#871869
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……You ask for me to give you proof of what I am saying , I did.  BESIDES the word “Ginomai” was being referenced to Abraham, coming into being,  “caused to be”.  It was not even referencing Jesus himself,  existing as a “sentinel” being at all. The part that references  Jesus was the part that says I am.
    Greek for I am “I-mee”…..strong G1510, 

    first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective  Verb: I exist ( used “only” when “emphatic” ,  ) ,  LIKE I EXST.  as in present tense , 

    Another words, Jesus was referring  , “to his “PRESENT”, EXISTENCE,  Was more “IMPORTANT’  then Abraham to them is or was.

     

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    July 8, 2021 at 3:06 am#871870
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    It is true, as a man Jesus cannot do anything of himself, the Father works in him ….
    And in the beginning Jesus worked for the creation of angels and worlds according to the will of the Father and by the DIVINE Power inherited from the Father (JOHN1: 1-3)
    FOR IN HIM ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE DIVINITY LIVES BODILY COLOSSIANS 2: 9

    July 8, 2021 at 4:51 am#871871
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….”know you not that”your” body is the temple of the “living God”,  therefore all the divinity of the living God is in all who have his Spirit “in” them.  We Who have the Spirit of God in us, are men who have that divinity in us, Jesus was a man who had that same divinity in him also.

    Did not Jesus say we would do “greater works” then he did?  Yes Berean he really did say that.  Jesus was exactly in every way exactly as we are, and The Seed of God, his Spirit,  was  him just as it is “IN” All WHO HAVE BEEN ANOINTED WITH him,  

    False teachers of Satan have blinded your eyes to who the real Jesus is Berean,  Turn away from them and Seek the Spirit of Truth, and “it will guid you into all truth,  ” brethren you have “NO” need of a teacher, for the Spirit of Truth, shall teach you all things.
    Berean, stop relying  on yourself, your church or others , and lean on God the Father , just as Jesus did all his life, when he was on this earth and even now.

    Be a true “brother” of Jesus, and you will do what he did,  and speak the Fathers word just as he did. You will be able to say, the words I am telling you.  are the Fathers words , and not mine,  just as Jesus did.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

    July 8, 2021 at 8:38 am#871872
    Berean
    Participant

    I do not beleive what You Say.

    For me , you have been deceived by false teachers and therefore you are trying to deceive others by preaching a false Christ.

    Christ IS not juste a man

    HE IS DIVINO/HUMAN LIKE SAY PAUL

     

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