Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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June 21, 2021 at 7:11 am#871561
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Please note that it doesn’t say that YHVH took possession of me, it merely says that YHVH possessed me. There is a difference.
There’s really not. Nor is it even worth arguing about, since – as I’ve repeatedly showed you – the following verses make it ABUNDANTLY clear that the word means created, not possessed. You can keep arguing for possessed until the cows come home, but it won’t change the fact that,
23I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth
Understand yet? It doesn’t matter that you insist upon “possessed” in verse 22, because verses 23, 24 and 25 make it clear that whoever was “possessed” in 22 went through a process of being brought into existence.
So Kathi, given that we know that the word could mean “possessed”, “acquired”, or “created” – which one of those 3 aligns better with “I was given birth”? And does insisting upon “possessed” somehow change the fact that this person was “given birth”?
Like I said, it’s not really worth arguing over.
June 21, 2021 at 7:17 am#871562
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?
Kathi, do you really think Paul was saying that the Father isn’t also our Lord?
June 21, 2021 at 7:20 am#871563
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: So for us believers there is one God the Father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
But for LU, there is one God the Father Son and Spirit. And one Lord, the Father, Jesus, and Spirit.
Did I crack the formula this time?
👍👍👍

June 21, 2021 at 7:36 am#871564
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: If I said this:
One father + one mother + one son = Fred, Wilma, and Bambam
and all are identified as the Flintstones,
would you understand that the Father is “Fred” and the mother is “Wilma” and the son is “BamBam?”
Fred and Wilma’s child was Pebbles, not BamBam. He was the son of Barney and Betty Rubble. 😉
But where your analogy fails is in the PLURAL word “Flintstones”. The “s” on the end tells us that we are talking about more than one person.
LU: The Father is the One God, the Son is the One Lord, and the Spirit is the One Spirit, and all are identified as YHVH.
See how your “YHVH” lacks the “s” on the end? You preach “the YHVHs” (like “the Flintstones”), but then you identify THEM as a singular YHVH, and use singular verbs and pronouns.
Can you see what we’re calling out here? We wouldn’t say, “The Flintstones got in HIS car and went to the drive in where HE ordered ribs and HIS dino-dog ripped a hole in the roof of HIS car.”
Similarly, we never hear you say, “The YHVHs sent HIS angel because HE was angry at the Romans” – or whatever.
The Bible ALWAYS identifies God with SINGULAR pronouns and verbs. But PLURAL families (the Flintstones) or entities (the YHVHs) would not be characterized with singular verbs and pronouns.
We say the Flintstones got in THEIR car, not HIS car. Similarly, if there was such a thing as “the YHVHs”, we’d say that THEY sent THEIR angel, not HE sent HIS angel.
June 21, 2021 at 7:53 am#871565
Berean
Participant
HI MIKE
He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

The truth IS That God created all THINGS BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

June 21, 2021 at 8:46 am#871566
Berean
Participant
Excuse me Mike

HELLO MIKE
He who creates is one, and he by whom the thing is created is another.
You misinterpret the word of God….
THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

June 21, 2021 at 9:24 am#871567
Proclaimer
Participant
In your tabletop example, Tater’s “up in the sky/OVERHEAD” is the floor – not the table. From his “upside down” perspective, he would never look down at his feet and say, “Hey, look at that table top ABOVE me and OVER MY HEAD!”
God is above the whole universe. Not even the universe can contain him. Above is not in one direction. Only in the sense of gravity from your reference frame.
For example: God is above the bottom of a soccer ball sitting on the pavement. But you are saying he is not above that part of the soccer ball and nor is he above that ant crawling on that part of the ball. If not, then how is he God of all?
June 21, 2021 at 9:57 am#871568
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
Can you explain what that means? Did “God” create? Or did “His only begotten Son” create? Which one? I mean, who should I identify as my Creator? The Bible only mentions “Creator” – not “Creators”. So which of the two is the Bible talking about when they say “Creator”?
(If you need help deciding, re-read the prayer in Acts 4 again, where the apostles of Jesus pray TO the one who actually DID create the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them. And then they identify Jesus – not AS that Creator to whom they were praying – but as the holy servant OF that Creator.)
Berean, who did Jesus’ apostles think the Creator was? Perhaps you know more about it than they did?
But wait… now that I think about it, they did address that Creator as “Sovereign Lord”… and Kathi says that Jesus ALONE is our Lord, right? So that settles it then. Right in the middle of the apostle’s prayer TO our Creator Lord Jesus, they identified Jesus as the holy servant OF our Creator Lord Jesus. Now it all makes sense. 😉

June 21, 2021 at 10:38 am#871570
mikeboll64
Blocked
Proclaimer: God is above the bottom of a soccer ball sitting on the pavement.
Congratulations! You’ve made it to a level of nonsensical double-talk usually reserved only for Trinitarians. If you’re going to butt in, at least address my actual premise of PEOPLE on opposite sides of a ball earth each looking up into the sky to where God resides.
Proclaimer: If not, then how is he God of all?
That is a non-sequitur. Again, stick to the premise or butt back out.
Ezekiel 1:22, 25-26
Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked something like a vault, sparkling like crystal, and awesome… Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.
In case you didn’t know, the word “above” in this context means “over one’s head”. Notice that God’s throne is above the firmament that was above the heads of the creatures who were lifted UP from the earth. Notice that the firmament was like crystal – not a “vacuum of space”.
So where is this firmament? ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS. Where is God’s throne? Sitting upon this firmament which is ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.
Luke 18:13
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “
Where is heaven? UP, which means ABOVE us, which means OVER OUR HEADS.
My question to LU was: How can heaven and God’s throne be UP/ABOVE YOU/OVER YOUR HEAD at the same time it is UP/ABOVE ME/OVER MY HEAD if we live on opposite sides of a ball?
June 21, 2021 at 12:57 pm#871573
Proclaimer
Participant
Congratulations! You’ve made it to a level of nonsensical double-talk usually reserved only for Trinitarians. If you’re going to butt in, at least address my actual premise of PEOPLE on opposite sides of a ball earth each looking up into the sky to where God resides.
It was addressed perfectly and you know it. That is why you got a bit upset.
God is above all, even above the ant near the bottom side of a soccer ball in both Arizona and New Zealand. This equates to your example of people in New Zealand on a globe. And why is New Zealand below and America above? Because civilisations in Europe put themselves at the top. Early Chinese compasses were actually oriented to point south. South is not below and north above in reality. I feel like I’m sitting at the top of the world in my reference frame here in New Zealand.
If God is only above that which is on one referenced flat plain, then who is the God of all the things that inhabit the other side of things that are essentially below in the same reference frame? In fact, who is the God of the surface under the earth dome?
It’s common sense that God is in the highest dimension. It is also common sense that if God created the universe, then he is above the whole thing. It makes zero difference how many dimensions the universe has. God is above that. Just because you can’t draw it doesn’t mean it isn’t this way. A piece of paper or a video is 2 dimensional. I think this is where you trip up.
So where is this firmament? ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS. Where is God’s throne? Sitting upon this firmament which is ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.
In the spirit realm. First the physical then the spiritual. Preschool then university. The spiritual realm is a higher realm or dimension. Heaven is higher than Eden and the Earth.
If we take a God centric view instead of an earth centric view, then God is at the top. And all 3 dimensional objects, four dimensional objects, 5 dimensional objects etc are below him.
June 21, 2021 at 12:59 pm#871574
Proclaimer
Participant
There is a flat earth topic where we can continue this debate if you are interested.
June 21, 2021 at 7:46 pm#871575
gadam123
Participant
Hi Mike,
Sorry, I am not interested in the cut and paste novels you keep posting. Use your own words to tell me why Prov 8:22 is cannot possibly be talking about an actual person.
I have already replied your post on Prov 8:22-31. The question is not about cut and paste which was very well done by the NT writers who had used bits and parts of the Hebrew scriptures to suit their ideas. Yes I am using my own words here. Your strange ideas of interpreting Hebrew scriptures especially Prov 8:22-31 is not new to Christian ideology. But it (quoting Prov 8: 22-31) was not found even in the NT writings. It was first invented by the Alexandrian priest Arius to prove Jesus’ origins in the beginning as a first creation of God. I am not going to buy such strange ideas which were even negated by the Church fathers in the history of Christianity.
Sorry I don’t want any further arguments on this Arian controversy here with me.
June 21, 2021 at 10:29 pm#871576
Proclaimer
Participant
Fred and Wilma’s child was Pebbles, not BamBam. He was the son of Barney and Betty Rubble.
Good to see we both agree on this very serious point.
I use to love that program when I was a kid. That and The Jetsons. The stone age and the space age.
June 22, 2021 at 4:44 am#871579
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..Your reasoning, of who is the actual creator of all things , and who is the only true God , is exactly right brother. IMO, and I Like the way you use sound reasoning on these issues. I do agree with them.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene

June 22, 2021 at 9:24 am#871580
Berean
Participant
Gene
About Jesus Paul wrote :
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For 👈
👉by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

God bless

June 23, 2021 at 2:06 am#871589
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean …..I realize Jesus is your God, and you worship him as such, but he is not my God, I have a God and it’s the same God , Jesus has. Thank you for your concern though.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
June 23, 2021 at 2:50 am#871590
GeneBalthrop
Participant
ADAM……Scripture that say “the word of God became flesh” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in our text for several reasons, one is a very simple to understand , because a word is an expression of intellect, it has nothing to do with flesh, words never has and never will have either , words are spirit according to Jesus.
“Jesus said the words I am telling you. Are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”. Now if that alone doesn’t prove to them, the “FLESH MAN”, Jesus is not the word of God. Perhaps understanding what John was actually saying might, he was saying this , ‘and “the word “Of” God, became flesh” , what came to be flesh?, was it the flesh man Jesus, or was it the Word of God which is Spirit, that became flesh? No, it was the ‘FLESH MAN JESUS, that came into being, not the word of God , but the fulfillment of the word of God that came to be.
This should be understood as John saying ” God’s prophesied word came to pass or into being , it was the “Flesh man Jesus “. Just that simple. Trinitarian’s translators have completely twisted up the truth that was being expressed there. As they have many other scriptures also.
NO one is Gods word, but God the Father “himself”. , no prophet is Gods word ether, but speaks God the fathers words to us, Jesus was a prophet, who spoke, God The Fathers words to us,just, as the other prophets did also.
All these false teachers here trying to make Jesus out to be a Spirit God, instead of a “flesh human being” are liars and will not be accepted now or later by Jesus or God the Father. unless they repent IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam……gene

June 23, 2021 at 3:57 am#871591
gadam123
Participant
ADAM……Scripture that say “the word of God became flesh” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in our text for several reasons, one is a very simple to understand , because a word is an expression of intellect, it has nothing to do with flesh, words never has and never will have either , words are spirit according to Jesus.
“Jesus said the words I am telling you. Are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”. Now if that alone doesn’t prove to them, the “FLESH MAN”, Jesus is not the word of God. Perhaps understanding what John was actually saying might, he was saying this , ‘and “the word “Of” God, became flesh” , what came to be flesh?, was it the flesh man Jesus, or was it the Word of God which is Spirit, that became flesh? No, it was the ‘FLESH MAN JESUS, that came into being, not the word of God , but the fulfillment of the word of God that came to be.
Hello brother Gene, I appreciate your post to me on John 1:1 about the “Word”. In fact the poetical narration of this writer of Fourth Gospel wanted to place Jesus, the supposed Messiah along with God in the beginning by comparing him with the “Word” which was involved in God’s creation in the beginning. This imagination of this writer caused Christianity to interpret Jesus as God who was with God in the beginning. If we see the basic aim of this writer in this Gospel as per John 20:
31 But these are written so that you may come to believe[d] that Jesus is the Messiah,[e] the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.
He wanted to convince his Jewish audience that Jesus was the Messiah but the chapter 1 proved other than that. His Gospel became the source of claiming Jesus’ divinity. No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would be called divine. This is the problem with the NT writers.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

June 23, 2021 at 4:34 am#871592
Berean
Participant
Gadam
No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would called divine. This is the problem with the NT writers.
This IS WHY THEY CRUCIFIED JESUS
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN DIVIN SON OF GOD MADE FLESH FOR US.
CAME FROM HEAVEN

June 23, 2021 at 9:02 am#871593
carmel
Participant
Hi Gadam,
YOU:He wanted to convince his Jewish audience that Jesus was the Messiah but the chapter 1 proved other than that. His Gospel became the source of claiming Jesus’ divinity.
No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would be called divine.
This is the problem with the NT writers.
ME: THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE JEWS AND THE HEBREWS, TO REMAIN STAGNATED TOTALLY CARNAL-MINDED PEOPLE AND STILL EXPECTING ONLY AN EARTHLY TRANSIENT REDEEMER.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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