Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

This topic has 25,929 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 5 hours, 51 minutes ago by carmel.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,361 through 22,380 (of 25,930 total)

←1 2 3…1,1181,1191,120…1,295 1,296 1,297 →

Author
Posts
May 31, 2021 at 7:32 am#871075
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
The funny thing is that no matter what translation I use, they all say that Jesus is identified by the Father as YHVH that laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the work of His hands.
Btw, when I hope what I post helps, I really do hope it helps. It would be pretty silly for me to spend so much time to hope it doesn’t help. Also, John never translated arche’ as “beginning.” Have you ever wondered how the word could be in the beginning and also the beginning that he was in? Wrestle with that.
LU
May 31, 2021 at 7:46 am#871076
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Once again Mike represents my views as one without understanding of them. I have spoken of two persons who make up the fullness of YHVH. One person is God the Father, another person is the one Lord, Jesus the Christ, the only begotten God.
No, I fully understand your binity theory. After all, it’s been almost a decade since you refined your old Trinity beliefs into your current Binity, right? Trust me, we all know exactly what you’re saying. And because of that, I can still say this…
Kathi thinks “God” is an entity made up of two different Gods… the Father and Jesus. So when scripture says that Jesus is the son, servant, lamb, holy one, messiah, prophet and priest OF “God”, then Jesus can’t possibly BE the very “God” he is all those things OF.
Think it out, Kathi… If “God” consists of a Father and Son Binity, then Jesus is the son of the Father and Son Binity. Jesus is the servant of the Father and Son Binity. Jesus is the messiah, holy one, sacrificial lamb, prophet and priest of the Father and Son Binity.
Kathi, Jesus told us that his God was also our God, right? Kathi… who is OUR God? (Jesus told us, remember?) Kathi… who is OUR God? (What did Jesus tell us?) Kathi… who is OUR God?
You see? You can’t say “the YHVH Our Righteousness Binity”, because in your imagination, that includes Jesus, right? So if OUR God is the YHVH Binity, then Jesus’ own God is also the YHVH Binity… because Jesus clearly told us that our God was also HIS God, right?
There is no hiding from the truth, girl. You can run… sometimes for a very long time. But there is no hiding from it.

LU: YHVH is both God and Lord. Mike thinks that the Father is both our one God and our one Lord. Scripture says otherwise.
You’re kidding, right? Our you saying that the Father isn’t our Lord? Really? 🤔 Hmm…
Acts 4
23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Who was leading this prayer? Peter and John? Hmm… Do you suppose that they know a little more about Jesus and God than we do? Yet when they prayed to… who? GOD… they addressed Him as Sovereign Lord. Hmm… But Kathi says God consists of a God (the Father) and a Lord (Jesus). How then could the Father be addressed as Peter and John’s “Lord”? Maybe they weren’t praying to the Father. After all, the one they were praying to made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them – and Kathi thinks that was Jesus. Let’s continue and find out…
25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“ ‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one.
The kings rise up against the Lord and his anointed one? Who is this “Lord”? According to Kathi, the “Lord” part of God is Jesus. But that can’t be, because they mention both the Lord AND his anointed one. And as far as I know, while Jesus is certainly the anointed one (messiah/christ) of God, he doesn’t have an anointed one of his own. Is it possible that this “God” whom they are addressing as “Lord” is actually the Father – and his anointed one (messiah/christ) is Jesus, the Christ of God? Wow… what a profound concept! Could it be? Let’s read on…
27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.
Wait, so first they quote OT scripture about kings rising up against “the Lord” and “his anointed one” – and then they link that to their current time period, where Herod and Pilate actually did rise up against “the Lord” and “his anointed one”? And to top it off, they actually identify Jesus as this anointed one? Huh. I wonder if that’s why he’s called “Jesus Christ” – because he actually IS the anointed one of this “Lord” they are praying to. And not only this “Lord’s” anointed one, but also his servant – according to Peter and John. Now why on earth would Peter and John refer to the Father as “Lord”, when Kathi tells us that Jesus is the “Lord” part of the Binity God? In fact, didn’t she just say (in a condescending tone nonetheless) that, “Mike thinks that the Father is both our one God and our one Lord. Scripture says otherwise.” ? First of all, Mike knows (from scripture) that there are indeed MANY gods and MANY lords, so he’d never claim that the Father is our ONE Lord. But secondly, how did this Bible passage begin again?
24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
So they are obviously praying to the Father, who is identified as both “God” AND “Sovereign Lord”. So is the Father both our “God” and our “Lord”, Kathi? Or does “scripture say otherwise” as you’ve erroneously stated? Continuing on…
28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
So they end by addressing this “God” to whom they prayed as “Lord” again, and then again identified Jesus – not as the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them – but as the holy servant OF that one.
So who is the “God” and the “Lord” that created all things? And who is his holy servant Jesus? Are they one and the same? Is Jesus the holy servant of a Binity comprised of himself and his own God? Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
LU: Mike also thinks the earth is flat…enough said.
I’m sorry… what again what your personally observed proof that I’m wrong? You’re like Tater saying, “Mike believes the world is only about 7000 years old, so enough said.” As if he would know any different – or as if my beliefs on one subject would diminish anything I had to say on any other subject.
Listen kiddies… The Bible says the world is about 7000 years old. And no amount of “science falsely so called” (1 Timothy 6:20) will undo what the Creator (not “creators) of the world Himself told us about the world He created.
The Bible also says the earth is flat and stationary. The following illustration was commissioned by Michael Heiser PhD (with whom Kathi is very familiar). It was for his lecture on Hebrew cosmology. Heiser himself believes the nonsense that we live on a spinning water ball orbiting the sun and flying though space at breakneck speeds in 4 different directions at once. But just like every other Hebrew scholar who believes in the heliocentric model, he will tell you point blank that the BIBLE doesn’t teach any such thing. The BIBLE teaches a flat and stationary earth fixed on pillars, and with a hard, crystalline firmament over it, in which God placed the lights (sun, moon, and stars) and set them on their appointed trajectories. Here is Heiser’s commissioned illustrations of what the BIBLE teaches, and what the Hebrews truly believed about our world…
Now you can side with “science falsely so called” if you want, but do you really think it’s wise to fault me for believing God’s written word? After all, didn’t I just quote this scripture in my last post…
Proverbs 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep…
Jesus said his and our God drew a circle on the face of the deep. Um… how does one draw a circle on a ball? And from Isaiah…
40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
A circle is not a ball. Nor could God sit “above” a ball. What would that even mean? He’s “above” me in Phoenix, but not “above” Tater in New Zealand right now? And what canopy and tent goes around a ball? On the other hand…
I think I see a circle. I think I see something that a domed canopy or tent could cover. But what do I and the Bible know? We are flat earthers after all, so… enough said, right?

Kathi, I can do this all day long. Your arguments grow weaker as my knowledge increases and mine grow stronger.

May 31, 2021 at 8:01 am#871077
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Also, John never translated arche’ as “beginning.”
I never said he did. Here’s what I said…
But what if we just translated it as “beginning” – the default #1 definition of the Greek word – and the meaning of the same word by the same author in John 1:1?
John used “arche” in 1:1. The clear meaning of the word is “beginning”, “In the beginning…” Or do you prefer, “In the originator was the Word…” ?
LU: Have you ever wondered how the word could be in the beginning and also the beginning that he was in? Wrestle with that.
What? There are many “beginnings”. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” Does that mean the earth has been around as long as Jesus or his angel brethren? No. But the beginning in John 1:1 is linked to the beginning in Rev 3:14. God created Jesus as the beginning/first of His works, which means the Word was with God in the beginning… that particular beginning.
Step 1: God created Jesus in the beginning.
Step1a: The Word was therefore with God from this particular beginning, ie: from the moment God created him as the first of His works.
Step 2: Later on, God created the heavens and the earth in a different beginning.
Kathi, I’m over Hebrews 1:10. I want to hear your thoughts on those Proverbs 8 verses I quoted earlier… the ones where Jesus was continually telling us how he was there when GOD created this and that. Was Jesus speaking the truth? Was he lying? Am I able to accept that Jesus was there shouting for joy as GOD created those things – like the passage actually says?
May 31, 2021 at 8:41 am#871078
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
This is a great article about those believing in a flat earth which can help you:
https://drmsh.com/christians-who-believe-the-earth-is-really-flat-does-it-get-any-dumber-than-this/
May 31, 2021 at 8:48 am#871079
Berean
Participant

Mike you should read this:
From ET.J.WAGONNER
Christ and his righteousness
Chapter 5
Is Christ a created being?
Before moving on to some of the practical lessons to be learned from these truths, we must dwell for a moment on an opinion which is honestly held by many who would not want to dishonor Christ willfully, but who because of this opinion, actually deny his Divinity. It is the idea that Christ is a created being, who, by the good pleasure of God, was raised to his present sublime position. No one with this opinion can really have a correct conception of the high position that Christ really occupies.
The opinion in question is based on a misinterpretation of the single text of Revelation 3:14: “Write also to the angel of the church of Laodicea: This is what the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God ”. This is misinterpreted as meaning that Christ is the first being that God created; that God’s work of creation began with him. But this view is contrary to the texts of Scripture which state that Christ Himself created all things. To say that God began his work of creation by creating Christ is to leave Christ entirely out of the work of creation.
The word translated as “beginning” is “ark” which means “head” or “chief”. It appears in the name of the Greek governor Archon, in archbishop, and in the word archangel. Let us see this last word. Christ is the Archangel. See Jude 9; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:28, 29; Daniel 10:21. It does not mean that He is the first of the angels, because He is not an angel, but that He is above them. This means that he is the head or prince of angels, just as an archbishop is the head of bishops. Christ is the “head” of the angels (see Revelation 19: 11-14). He created the angels (Colossians 1:16). Likewise, the assertion that he is the beginning or the head of God’s creation means that in him the creation found its beginning; that as he himself says, he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last (Revelation 21: 6; 22:13). He is the source where all things originate.
Neither should we imagine that Christ is a creature, because Paul calls him “the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15), for the following verses indicate that he is the creator, and not a creature. “For by him were created all things in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible, thrones, dignities, dominions, authorities. All was created by him and for him. He is before all things, and all things subsist in him ”. Now, if he created all the things that were ever created, and if he existed before all created things, it is evident that he is not one of the created things. He is above all creation, and He is not a part of that creation.
The Scriptures declare that Christ is “the only Son of God.” He is begotten, not created. As to when he was begotten, it is not for us to investigate it, and our mind would not be able to understand it if it were explained to us. The prophet Micah tells us everything we can know on this subject, with these words: “And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, little one among the thousands of Judah, from you will come forth for me the One who will rule over Israel, and whose origin goes back. in ancient times, in the days of eternity ”(Micah 5: 1, 2). There was a time when Christ appeared to come from God out of the bosom of the Father (John 8:42; 1:18), but that time was so far in the past, in the days of eternity, that for an understanding limited, this epoch is practically without beginning.
But the important thing is that Christ is the only Son of God and not a created subject. He has by inheritance a name more excellent than that of the angels; he is a son in his own house (Hebrews 1: 4; 3: 6). And since he is the only begotten Son of God, he is of the same substance and nature as God, and possesses by birth all the attributes of God; because it pleased the Father that his Son be the exact image of his Person, the shine of his glory, and be filled with all the fullness of the Godhead. Thus, he has “life in himself”; he possesses immortality by virtue of his own right, and can grant it to others. Life is natural in him, therefore it cannot be taken from him; but having voluntarily given his life, he can take it back. He said “this is why the Father loves me: it is because I give my life, so that I can take it back. No one takes it from me, but I give it of myself; I have the power to give it, and I have the power to take it back: I have received this command from my Father ”(John 10:17, 18).
If anyone brings up the old objection, namely, How could Christ be immortal and yet die ?, we just have to say that we don’t know. We
do not pretend to understand everything about infinity. We cannot understand how Christ could be God in the beginning, sharing the same glory with the Father before the world was, and yet be born as a baby in Bethlehem. The mystery of the crucifixion and the resurrection is only the mystery of the incarnation. We cannot understand how Christ could be God and become man for our good. We cannot understand how he could create the world out of nothing, nor how he could raise the dead, nor how he can work by his Spirit in our own hearts; however, we believe and know these things. It should be enough for us to accept as truth what God has revealed, without stumbling upon things which the intellect cannot comprehend. Also, we rejoice in the infinite power and glory which the scriptures declare to be Christ’s, without tormenting our limited mind in a vain attempt to explain infinity.
Finally, we know the divine unity of the Father and the Son because both have the same spirit. Paul, after having said that those who are in the flesh cannot please God, continues: “for you, you do not live according to the flesh, but according to the spirit, if it is true that the spirit of God dwells. In you ; but if any man does not have the spirit of Christ, he is not his ”(Romans 8: 9). Here we find that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. Christ “is in the bosom of the Father”; being by nature of the same substance as God, and having life in himself, he is rightly called Jehovah, the only self-existent one, and in Jeremiah 23: 6 it is said of him, that a righteous germ will execute judgment and righteousness on the earth, will be known as Jehovah-tsidekenu “the Lord our righteousness”.
Let no one therefore, who claims to honor Christ, grant him less honor than he grants to the Father, for that would be dishonoring the Father. May all, along with the angels of heaven, worship the Son, without fear of worshiping and serving the creature instead of the Creator.
And now, as the truth of Christ’s divinity is clear in our minds, let us stop to consider the wonderful story of his humiliation.
GOD BLESS

May 31, 2021 at 9:11 am#871080
Lightenup
Participant
Great post Berean!
May 31, 2021 at 9:18 am#871081
carmel
Participant
1 Corinthians 15:27
YOU: Now read your passage again with the discernment Paul showed here…
For he “has put everything under his feet.”Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself,……
The above scripture Mike has nothing to do with “ALL THINGS JESUS RIGHT NOW POSSESSES” thus it is not referring to
JESUS CHRIST CURRENT GLORIFIED STATE AS GODMAN, But it is referring to
everything which Jesus Christ’s ENEMIES ARE STILL REJECTING, PRECISELY that
JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY MANIFESTED ON EARTH THE TRUE
GODMAN MALE AND FEMALE ANDROGYNOUS!
NOW READ:
Hebrews 1:13 ….. Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
In the above, it is evidently clear that Jesus Christ is seated on God’s right-hand waiting for the Father to make His/Jesus’ enemies His footstool.
IT IS GOD’S TASK BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO ESTABLISH
JESUS CHRIST OFFICIALLY ON EARTH AS
THE ONLY TRUE GOD/HUMAN, MALE AND FEMALE, ANDROGYNOUS!
DISCERN THE TRUTH MIKE:
MANY THAT ARE FIRST BECOME LAST AND LAST FIRST! Read:
John16:14 He shall glorify ME;
The Holy Spirit glorified the Father throughout the OT, but from Jesus’ glorification, He is glorifying JESUS CHRIST, NOT THE FATHER but for the PLEASURE of the Father as well.
THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE!
because he shall receive of MINE, and shall show it to you.
THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVED JESUS’ UNIQUE GLORIFIED HUMAN/DIVINE ATTRIBUTES, WELL CLEAR IN
Acts 2o:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the HOLY GHOST hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.
ATTENTION MIKE!!!
15 ALL THINGS whatsoever the Father hath,
ARE MINE,
OK MIKE THE ABOVE ARE ALL GOD’S THINGS JESUS POSSESSES, WHILE THE FATHER IS IN HIS LONGEST REST!
Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and SHOW IT TO YOU.

John20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to (the glory of) my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:
I ascend to (the UNIQUE glory of) my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
John17:5And now glorify thou me, O Father, WITH YOURSELF with the glory which I had,
before the world was, with thee. (THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST PRE-EXISTENCE)
YOU: When Jesus says all of God’s things are also his, he is talking about
the many things….
ME:NO MIKE NOT THE MANY THINGS BUT
ALL THINGS that God, YHVH, has given to HIS Son Jesus.
So, this does include the title of Most High God OR ELSE
GOD WOULD HAVE FAILED AND IS NOT ALMIGHTY AT ALL!
GOD IN JESUS CHRIST MIKE, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT FROM THE CROSS IS EMBODIED IN THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE NO MATTER WHO AND WHAT!
GOD OF ALL FLESH!!!
For the sake and pleasure of the Father.Till the last day of the lord, when God would be
ALL IN ALL!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ

May 31, 2021 at 9:59 am#871082
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Regarding this passage, think of the “companions” as the other Davidic kings:
…8But about the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy.”
That is how I see it. It is speaking of the Son in His Messianic role, according to thee flesh. The “companions” are not the angels. The bulk of the chapter is showing His superiority to the angels, the Son was never one of the angels. The Son actually created the angels in the beginning, way before He became flesh and after He became flesh He was given sole authority over the angels.
May 31, 2021 at 10:10 am#871083
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
From your favorite translation, the NET Bible.

May 31, 2021 at 10:47 am#871084
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Proverbs 8 does not mention the word “God” but instead “YHVH.” Wisdom is “possessed” by YHVH, meaning YHVH had wisdom there before His first work. Therefore, wisdom couldn’t be His first work if He existed before His first work. Wisdom was and is a member of YHVH, the Unity, and it was through that member that The YHVH Unity created all things. That member delighted in the creation of YHVH which He was a member of.
Also, in the NT, when you see the word “Lord” you should be careful to distinguish that word from Lord and LORD in meaning. For instance, the sovereign “Lord” who created the heavens and the earth through the Son, would be YHVH or LORD. As Prov 8 tells us, Wisdom was the craftsman for YHVH as a possession of YHVH or member of YHVH.
It is up to the context to help you see if YHVH is who is meant by the term “Lord.”. Heb 1:10 is a perfect example of that where an OT passage is quoted which is about YHVH, and the Father identifies the Son as that YHVH.
I do hope that helps, LU

May 31, 2021 at 2:59 pm#871085
gadam123
Participant
Hi Sis Kathi, thank you so much for your kindness and concern for me.
I’m sorry to hear of your struggle in making sense of Jesus Christ. My constant debate with Mike has been very helpful to bring me deeper into my relationship with the Lord Jesus and to really know Him as the only begotten God and YHVH my righteousness in-spite of Mike’s lack to receive that truth. Don’t give up seeking Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father apart from Him. The search has eternal consequences and eternal rewards. If you deny Jesus, poor health will be the least of your concerns. If you believe in Jesus as the Lord of your life, you will learn to find peace that lasts for an eternity as you trust Him and His Father and are filled with their Spirit.
My friend, our discomfort on this earth is so small compared to the eternal joy that awaits those who believe in Jesus as their Savior.
Matt 6:25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.
I hope that helps, LU
In fact I know you and Sis Mandy for quite some time on this Heaven Net but unfortunately Mandy is no more active on this Forum. We used to have very good positive deliberation during the years 2009-11. I left Heaven Net due to my ill health in 2011 and joined back this Forum recently after 10 years. Nice to see you all. I like the approach of you, Sis Mandy, T8 and brother Gene here. We need not go to personal attacks during these unending debates. Thank you so much for your advice to me on not to loose heart. I know I get strength only from God these days as we are in the midst of Pandemic in India.
Recently I had gone through the thread on “The Most High God?” and read all your posts and others. I think our NT and Christianity created a great confusion on these doctrines on God. When we had only the Hebrew Bible there was no confusion on the Most high God but the NT writers included Jesus the supposed Messiah to be a Godly being along with the only God Yahweh available in the Hebrew Bible. This is where I am struck and started to unlearn every thing I had learned as a Christian. I am now on neutral ground and visualising these concepts in the light of the Hebrew Bible and interpreting the NT writings in the light of its original source the Hebrew Bible.
I still think I am a true Christian like every one in this Forum as I still pray to God in Jesus name daily. I have not left my beliefs on Jesus as my personal saviour.
But my quest continues in spite of my personal beliefs with a skeptic approach.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

May 31, 2021 at 3:27 pm#871086
Lightenup
Participant
Hi gadam123,
I remember you from back then. I’m glad that you can see that the NT teaches Jesus as God. Did you notice that it also teaches that he is the Lord of lords?
You are right about there being much confusion. That is good that you are seeking to sort it all out. Unity in truth is worth pursuing. In heaven we will see clearly. This side of heaven will be not as clear, thus confusion. I can easily find YouTube videos in agreement of what I believe, also, I can find agreement with the early church father’s beliefs. That is comforting to me that I am on the right path. I would be happy to help you.
That COVID-19 has really turned the world upside down to some degree. One good thing that I see that it has done is shown us that many jobs can be done from home, as well as school can be done from home. I home schooled my five kids so that wasn’t so new to me. My son got the virus and had a history of asthma. He got through it just fine. I think that the US is getting back to being more normal, thank God. For me, the biggest change was not going to church every week. I really missed that. I am just now starting to go back.
May God protect you and guide you, LU
Btw, even John the Baptist doubted, not for long though.

May 31, 2021 at 4:39 pm#871087
gadam123
Participant
Hello Mike, thanks for your posts to me.
You:
You see that, gadam? This is why I’m here. This is how it is done. I can’t force the horses to drink, but it is a very light yoke for me to keep leading them to the water. Eventually, they might just accept the scriptures for what they clearly say, and stop twisting them. I mean, what if Kathi finally decides to accept that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the creation by God, was CREATED as the first of God’s works, and is the firstborn of every CREATURE God created? What if she some day comes to accept that Jesus is the son, servant, messiah, holy one, lamb, prophet, and priest OF God – and as such can’t possibly BE the very God he is all those things OF? When that happens, my efforts will not have been in vain.
Btw gadam, since you and I are debating about Micah 5:2 (an OT scripture), will you now reject the OT along with the NT? That was your argument, right? Since the NT causes debate, we should just pretend like it doesn’t exist, right? So will you now dump the OT as well? Just curious.
Me: The problem with our NT as I repeatedly mention here that it is not in unity on the doctrine of Jesus. I think you are struck with one aspect of this nature of Jesus where you repeatedly quote Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15. I agree there is ambiguity of these verses which were written in the later part of First Century. Christian doctrines developed as the time passed even if you see beyond the NT period. We can’t rely fully on these developed ideas. That is the reason why I am looking towards the original source the Hebrew Bible for critically analysing these ideas.
Coming to the verses you quoted to support Jesus’ preexistence in the Hebrew Bible Prov 8 and Micah 5;
The Hebrew Bible or the religion of Hebrews never mention about another godly being along with God Yahweh unless Christianity force these verses you quoted to suit its ideas. We should understand the Hebrew religion from their point of view and not from our Christian biased view.
Here is the one explanation of a Christian not a Jew on Prov 8:22-30:
“When you tell Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus is uncreated, they are likely to take you directly to Proverbs 8:22–30 in their New World Translation (NWT). They believe this is undeniable proof that Jesus was the first created creature. Before looking specifically at this passage, we should familiarize ourselves with the context. This chapter begins with a personification of wisdom as a woman calling out in the streets. A personification is a figure of speech where human qualities are given to non-human things. For example, telling my wife that opportunity is knocking at her door is a personification of opportunity. It would be foolish for her to go check the door to see if someone is literally there knocking. Opportunity is not an actual person. In the case of Proverbs 8, personal qualities are attributed to the virtue of wisdom so that it sounds like a person (Prov. 8:12), but it’s not really a person.
Solomon’s primary intent of verses 22–30 is to communicate that God used wisdom when He created the world. God was wise from the beginning. David echoes this idea in the Psalms. He writes, “O Lord, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures” (Psa. 104:24). Solomon stresses the same point. He writes, “The Lord possessed me [wisdom] at the beginning of his work” and “I [wisdom] was beside Him, like a master workman…” (Prov. 8:22, 30). The question is, is this passage about more than wisdom?
Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that this description moves beyond a personification to describing a personality; namely, it describes the person of Christ. Furthermore, their NWT translates verse 22 as “Jehovah produced me as the beginning of His way” (Prov. 8:22). According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, if wisdom was created, and the wisdom of God is Jesus (1 Cor. 1:30), then Solomon must be saying that Jesus was created.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ argument hinges on the meaning of the verb qanah, which they translate as produced, or created. There are two reasons to reject the NWT’s rendering. First, most Bible scholars, think that possess is the best translation of the original language. Therefore, Solomon is saying that Jehovah possessed wisdom, not that He created it. If Jehovah didn’t create wisdom, then their argument that Jesus was created disappears.
Second, logic demands that the Jehovah’s Witness translation be disregarded. Clearly, Jehovah could not have produced wisdom. Wisdom is one of His essential attributes that Jehovah has possessed from eternity. If the NWT is correct, then Jehovah lacked wisdom until He produced it. Since Jehovah is eternal, this means that He eternally existed without the virtue of wisdom until He produced it a finite time ago.
If this passage comes up in discussion with your Jehovah’s Witness friends, ask them, “Do you believe that Jehovah lacked wisdom?” This question puts them between a rock and a hard place. If they answer yes, then their view of God is mistaken. The God of the Bible is omniscient, which means all-wise. Therefore, there cannot be a time when He lacked wisdom.
If they say no, then their translation of verse 22 is mistaken. The NWT clearly says, “Jehovah produced wisdom.” God could not have produced wisdom since He already possessed it.
Your Jehovah’s Witness friends might object at this point. “This passage isn’t about wisdom; it’s about Jesus,” they might exclaim. However, this response makes a gross exegetical error. Whether or not someone believes this passage applies to Christ, we all recognize that it is at least talking about the virtue of wisdom. It may be about the virtue of wisdom only, or it may be about the virtue of wisdom and Jesus. But the context will not allow this text to be about Jesus alone.
At this point, I need to employ an important hermeneutical principle. When it comes to Scripture, you always interpret what is unclear in light of what is clear. That is, you start with what is clear and work out to what is less clear. Reinterpreting clear passages to make them fit with less clear passages is bad hermeneutics. Yet, Jehovah’s Witnesses do this all the time.
For example, I was discussing John 1:3 with a Jehovah’s Witness to establish that Jesus is the uncreated Creator. He responded by citing Proverbs 8:22 and stating, “Jesus is Jehovah’s first creation.” Given what I’ve have already said about John 1:3 and Proverbs 8:22, it should be obvious to any honest person that the former is much more clear than the latter. Consequently, it would be an egregious error to reinterpret a straightforward passage, like John 1:3, to accommodate a debatable reading of Proverbs 8:22.”
I will reply on Micah 5:2 in my next post.
May 31, 2021 at 8:03 pm#871088
gadam123
Participant
Hi Mike,
You:
Btw gadam, since you and I are debating about Micah 5:2 (an OT scripture), will you now reject the OT along with the NT? That was your argument, right? Since the NT causes debate, we should just pretend like it doesn’t exist, right? So will you now dump the OT as well? Just curious.
Me: Here is the explanation on Micah 5:2;
Micah does not speak or write about Jesus. He fulminates against the the people in high places. The “big” city Jerusalem was not, is not, and will not be the place where Jacob’s children will find peace of mind. He refers to Bethlehem where the legendary David 250 years earlier was born. The text of Micah has had an overhaul after the Babylonian exile to its current form. The text does not refer to Jesus.
Here are the arguments from Jewish perspectives on Micah 5:
I’ll note a few things about the Book of Micah, when it is supposed to have been written, and a few more contextual comments on the passage in question;
1- The Book of Micah: When was Micah active and when were the events in the book supposed to have occurred, and when was the Book written?
a) When was Micah active and when were the events in the book supposed to have occurred?
Micah’s very first verse – the superscription – gives an indication of when the book’s events took place: The word of [YHWH] that came to Micah the Morashtite, who prophesied concerning Samaria and Jerusalem in the reigns of King Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah of Judah. (Michah 1:1, NJPS)
Here are the regnal dates for the Judahite kings mentioned (from the Anchor Bible Dictionary):
Jotham = 759-743 (during the events of Isaiah 1-39)
Ahaz = 743-727 (also during the events of Isaiah 1-39)
Hezekiah = 727-698
So, we have a time period of from 759-698 BCE. The two cites mentioned (Samaria and Jersualem) were the capitals of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms (respectively), though most of the Book deals with Judah specifically, only using the Northern Kingdom and Samaria as an object-lesson of what will also befall Jersualem (Samaria was conqured by the Assyrians prior circa 722 BCE – during the reign of Hezekiah in the Southern Kingdom. This superscription gives us our only information about Micah’s supposed prophetic activity and when it occurred.
b) When was the book written?
Problems arise, however. Micah 4:10 and 7:11-13 make pretty precise references (4:10 especially) to the Babylonian Exile and the events following it (c. 586-440 BCE). So we have a gap of over a 100 years between the events recorded in the book – (the prophecies, such as they are when this gap is realized) – and the writing of the book, or at least the final version of the book. So whoever wrote the book was writing long after the fact, supposedly. Some scholars have found what they consider to be the “authentic” material of Micah in the Book. Delbert R. Hillers writes, in the entry on “Micah, Book of” in the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Ewald (1867) and especially Stade (1881; 1883;1884; 1903) distinguished genuine from inauthentic and late elements in the book, using arguments that have seemed persuasive to most, and have remained decisive for much subsequent study. Only chaps. 1-3 are the genuine words of Micah, and from these 2:12-13 must be subtracted as intrusive in its context. The hopeful material of the rest of the book contradicts chaps. 1-3 and must be discounted, especially in the view of Jeremiah 26:18, which knows Micah only as a prophet of doom…. Micah 4:1-4 is the same as Isaiah 2:2-4, the only substantial difference being the addition in Micah of the line beginning: “But they shall sit every man under his vine.” (Vol. 4, pp. 808-809, Doubleday, 1992)
2- What is the “hopeful material” that our oft-quoted passage in question is a part of? The Book of Micah is made up of several subsections – prophecies. The Jewish Study Bible lists them as follows:
a) 1:2-2:13 = concerns mostly divine judgement, exile, and social ethics, but – as expected – also provides hope for the future (2:5, 12-13)
b) 3:1-12 = explains the fall of Jerusalem in terms of wrongful leadership
c) 4:1-5:14 = [our area of interest!] raises diverse images of a utopian future and touches on aspects of the relations between Israel and the nations at that time
d) 6:1-8 = a didactic prophecy
e) 6:9-16 = another explanation for the judgement that fell upon monarchic Jerusalem
f) 7:1-7 = an expression of trust in [YHWH] in spite of and as a response to social disintegration
g) 7:7-20 = finally, a confirmation of [YHWH’s] distinct relationship with Zion and Judah that leads to an upbeat conclusion of the entire book. (Ehud ben Zvi, Introduction to Micah, p. 1205, Oxford) As previously mentioned, the doom-and-gloom chapters of 1-3 now give way to the “inauthentic” material of the book, and the Utopian Vision of the Future. The Anchor Bible Dictionary gives us good information on the passage in question, and it’s context: The Return of the Great Ruler from Bethlehem (5:1-4) is foretold in one of the book’s most famous and influential passages, especially among Christian interpreters (cf. Matt 2:6; John 7:40-43).
He is to reunite the people and bring peace. Aspects of this promised peace are depicted in the next three oracles: 1) Assyria eliminated (5:4-5) 2) The Irresistible Might of Jacob (5:6-8) 3) The Purified Nation (5:9-14). Alien elements that offend Yahweh – chariots, cities, divination, idols – will be removed, and the people’s triumph over their enemies will follow. (Heller, “Micah, Book of”, p. 808) A few comments are appropriate contextually. First, the initial section regarding the Return of the Great Ruler:
“And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath, Least among the clans of Judah, From you one shall come forth To rule Israel for Me – One whose origin is from of old, From ancient times. Truly, He will leave them [helpless] Until she who is to bear has borne; Then the rest of his countrymen Shall return to the children of Israel. He shall stand and shepherd By the might of [YHWH], By the power of the name Of [YHWH] his God, And they shall dwell [secure]. For lo, he shall wax great To the ends of the earth; And that shall afford safety.” (Micah 5:1-4a, NJPS)
3- The misuse and misunderstanding of Christian exegetes who confused the translation in 5:1 of a clan with a city. Ephrath was the clan to which the Bethlehemites belonged to, so this also gives us a pretty clear reference to David (who came from this clan), his descendants and the promise of another Davidic King to act as a ruler or shepherd (after “she who is to bear has borne” him) to protect and deliver the people from the threat of Assyria. Further prophecies detail this rulers smashing of Assyria, and all other foes of Israel until the Utopian future has arrived. Well – it seems pretty clear that contextually, (like Insane has pointed out) this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the later birth of Jesus of Nazareth (except in the minds of those skilled in taking verses out of context), who did not destroy the Assyrians and Nimrod – by the way. The Assyrians were destroyed eventually, but by Neo-Babylonian hands; not by a Davidic King. The further language of the oracles point to a fiercely military leader, one who destroys and crushes Israel’s foes – hardly in line with later Christian teaching of a “spiritual” victory (since any chance of an earthly military victory over Israel’s enemies was halted by his untimely crucifixion) through death for the sake of all mankind.
a) Matthew’s exercise in Creative Writing George A. Buttrick, in The Interpreter’s Bible, offers additional comments concerning Ancient Warrior’s comparison of Micah with Matthew’s version: The Targum paraphrases Micah 5:2 thus: “Out of thee shall go before me the Messiah, to exercise lordship over Israel, whose name is known to me since the beginning.” Matthew’s quotation is not from the LXX; apparently it is a fresh translation from the Hebrew, and the wording is changed: Bethlehem once was, but is no longer, least among the rulers of Judah (Godspeed: “leading places of Judah”). Some scholars believe that OT prophecy is the sole source of the tradition that Jesus was born there. (p. 258, Abingdon, New York, 1951). In other words, the attempts by Matthew to place Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem (causing all sorts of problems, since he was known to have come from Nazareth!) are based on his obsession with finding anything remotely twistable in the service of his agenda to absolutely prove to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah – even if he had to rewrite Scripture to do so, and add incidents to the life of Jesus.
b) A targum, by the way, is an Aramaic translation AND interpretation of the original Hebrew text. They frequently diverge from the literal and originally intended meaning of the Hebrew text. This is easily determined by comparing the two, and the various comments in the Talmud concerning targuming. Alfred Edersheim, in his Jewishly apologetic The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah, notes that when Targuming, the New Testament writers should in preference make use of such a well-known and widely-spread version as the Translation of the Septuagint needs no explanation. That they did not confine themselves to it, but, when it seemed necessary, literally or Targumically rendered a verse, appears from the actual quotations in the New Testament. (p. 144, Hendrickson Vers., 1993, orig. 1883) He mentions in a footnote that “in point of fact, the Talmud expressly lays it down, that ‘whosever targums a verse in its closely literal form [without due regard to its meaning], is a liar.’ ” So I guess the question still remains: was the writer of the Gospel of Matthew engaging in this?
Your repeated stress on “Ancient times” does not support any thing on your strange ideas on Jesus being created by God in (so called) ancient times. Hope this will help you.
May 31, 2021 at 9:31 pm#871089
gadam123
Participant
……Continued from my previous post on Micah 5:2;
Micah was a prophet in the days of King Hezekiah of Judah. The key moment of his reign was the Assyrian threat on his kingdom when they laid siege to the capital city of Jerusalem. Being a righteous man (according to the biblical writer), Micah apparently comes to the rescue with a “word from the Lord.”
As a prophet, his job was to offer moral support to a righteous king. After all, there was no way God was not going to support and rescue a devout worshiper so it was expected God would send word of encouragement.
Micah believed a hero for the moment would come from an ancient family line that went back as far as the early days of Israel’s ascendancy in Canaan. The family name was Bethlehem-Ephrathah, Bethlehem being the great grand descendant of Caleb through is marriage to Ephrathah (See I Chronicles 2:18 and 42-50). Yes, Bethlehem and Ephrathah were actually people and not just the name of Judean towns that apparently came to bear their names. This might come as a surprise to some.
They appear to have been a small clan (Micah mentions this) but had a distinction of an ancient lineage (from days of old) and legacy coming through a legendary figure – Caleb. That Micah is definitely NOT predicting Jesus or anyone beyond his time is made clear in the fifth verse of the chapter where we are given a time-line for this hero’s appearance. He tells us that this “one,” who would restore the peace would step up ‘When the Assyrian comes into our land.’
Jesus cannot qualify because the Assyrians had long ceased to be a people 700 years BEFORE the time of Jesus. At no point in Jesus’ life would he have ever met Assyrians nor was there ever an Assyrian Invasion of Judea during his time nor are we told there will ever be.
Critical view: If we look at the context of the chapter, it speaks of war, notably with the advancing Assyrians. The very first verse calls for troop gathering. To show that Micah himself spouted a prophesy that never came to pass much less prophesying about Jesus, he predicts that this Jewish hero would drive the Assyrians back to their land AND will lay waste to their empire. While Assyria did meet this fate, it was NOT a Jewish hero who led to the demise of that empire. That honour goes to the Babylonians.
June 1, 2021 at 4:47 am#871090
gadam123
Participant
Hi Sis Kathi, thanks for your encouraging words.
Hi gadam123,
I remember you from back then. I’m glad that you can see that the NT teaches Jesus as God. Did you notice that it also teaches that he is the Lord of lords?
You are right about there being much confusion. That is good that you are seeking to sort it all out. Unity in truth is worth pursuing. In heaven we will see clearly. This side of heaven will be not as clear, thus confusion. I can easily find YouTube videos in agreement of what I believe, also, I can find agreement with the early church father’s beliefs. That is comforting to me that I am on the right path. I would be happy to help you.
That COVID-19 has really turned the world upside down to some degree. One good thing that I see that it has done is shown us that many jobs can be done from home, as well as school can be done from home. I home schooled my five kids so that wasn’t so new to me. My son got the virus and had a history of asthma. He got through it just fine. I think that the US is getting back to being more normal, thank God. For me, the biggest change was not going to church every week. I really missed that. I am just now starting to go back.
May God protect you and guide you, LU
Btw, even John the Baptist doubted, not for long though.
Yes I am honest in search for truth. I too agree that our NT gave much divinely active role to Jesus like his role in God’s creation, Salvation(Soteriology) and the future role as God’s Judge and Life-giver etc. But I find these godly roles given to Jesus the supposed Messiah is some thing strange when compared to the religion of the Hebrew Bible. This is where I am on my new search for truth behind these changed religious concepts on the Messiah in the light of Hebrew Bible.
Yes, really the COVID19 has changed every thing in our lives but it has caused much havoc and fear among people. I can understand as a mother it’s very difficult for you to go through such challenging times. But you are a daring lady in spite of your busy life as a mother of 5 kids you are still finding time to answer these unending debates on this Heaven Net. Hats off to you.
We are slowly showing decline in positive count of COVID cases and even reduction of death count in India. Our Vaccination process is too slow and it may take up to December 2021 to complete at least for the population above the age of 18 years with this speed. Hoping for good days ahead too like USA and countries.
Thanks and peace to you……Adam
June 1, 2021 at 5:38 am#871091
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Mike,
This is a great article about those believing in a flat earth which can help you…
Okay Tater Jr. (That’s his “defense” of the Satanic ball earth too… just posting articles and videos of other people saying stuff.) Tell me, Kathi, what particular flat earth argument have I made that this article addresses? In what way is that particular argument refuted in this article?
I’ll tell you what… if you can tell me how God could draw a circle on the face of the great deep (which was the spherical earth before it was fully formed in your opinion), then I might read your article.
If you can tell me how God looks down on the circle of the earth and sees all its inhabitants as grasshoppers (if the earth is a ball with people on opposite sides of it), then I might read your article.
If you can tell me how God is “above” both me in Arizona and Tater in NZ at the same time, then I might read your article.
(Of course you can’t tell me those things because they don’t align with your heliocentric fantasy – and therefore you have only ridicule and articles from other people to offer. So I suggest that YOU read the article first, find the rebuttal to the “circle of the earth” verses, put those arguments into your own words, and scripturally explain how they could be talking about a ball earth. Otherwise, just stick to “ridicule from a position of utter ignorance”.)
Like I’ve already mentioned, even the Biblical scholars who “KNOW” that we live on a spinning ball orbiting the sun will tell you that the Hebrew cosmology of the Bible is a flat, stationary earth affixed to pillars, and with a hard dome over the top of it, in which God placed the sun, the moon, and the stars. Face it… the Bible teaches a flat, stationary earth with lights in the firmament that run their God-appointed courses above it. And the only argument you can possibly make against that is Tater’s argument that they were just ignorant sheep herders who didn’t know any better. He forgets that their knowledge of our world came from God’s own descriptions of the world that He Himself created.
June 1, 2021 at 7:00 am#871092
mikeboll64
Blocked
Berean: Mike you should read this:
From ET.J.WAGONNER
Christ and his righteousness
Chapter 5
Hi Berean, I did read it, and it is the epitome of every misunderstanding/twisting of scripture that I’ve been trying to clarify for almost 15 years here. Let me hit just a few highlights and ask you (and Kathi who praised this article) to defend those arguments.
No one with this opinion can really have a correct conception of the high position that Christ really occupies.
As Kathi will attest, I’ve been arguing for years that those who want Jesus to be the very God he is the Son of do so because they have a personal desire to place Jesus in a higher position than he placed himself. Jesus knew and taught that he was a willing servant of his and our God. It is only the aforementioned personal desire that causes some people to go against what Jesus taught about himself, and try to make him into the very God he told us he serves. Here’s an example…
John 3:17 God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.…
John 3:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
So who sent Jesus into the world? God. Whose will did Jesus come down from heaven to do? God’s will. Was God’s will also Jesus’ will? Apparently not, since Jesus clearly said he was NOT here to do HIS OWN will, but to do the will of his God. You believe “God” is some combination of the Father and Jesus, but that would mean that God (“Father & Son Combo”) sent HIS (?) Son into the world. It would mean that Jesus came, not to do his will, but the will of God (“Father & Son Combo”). Do you see how we’re already mired in nonsense?
[Rev 3:14] is misinterpreted as meaning that Christ is the first being that God created; that God’s work of creation began with him. But this view is contrary to the texts of Scripture which state that Christ Himself created all things.
Ah… but it’s NOT contrary IF there exists no scripture that says Christ created all things, right? And since there exists no scripture in the entire Bible that says Jesus created anything at all, there is no contradiction. (I refer you again to Acts 4 – where Peter, John, and a bunch of Jesus’ other disciples prayed to the God who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them… and then identified Jesus as the holy servant OF that one.) And with no contradiction, the word “arche” in Rev 3:14 has, as its #1 default meaning, “beginning”. The same meaning of the same word in John 1:1 – which was written by the same author.
Christ is the Archangel. See Jude 9; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:28, 29; Daniel 10:21. It does not mean that He is the first of the angels, because He is not an angel…
The word “angel” is the English translation of Hebrew and Greek words that both literally mean “messenger”. When the “messenger” in question is thought to be a supernatural being, English translators use “angel”. So is Jesus a supernatural messenger of his God?
Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Yep. Jesus, who at this time was a supernatural being back in heaven, was delivering a message that his God gave him to deliver. So Jesus is a supernatural messenger of God, ie: an angel of God. And btw, the word “archangel” most definitely DOES mean that the person with that title is one of that group. Michael cannot be an archangel without also being an angel. Archangel means a leader among the angels, ie: “lead angel”. And just as a “lead prosecutor” must BE a prosecutor to be the lead one, an archangel must BE an angel to be a “lead angel”.
Neither should we imagine that Christ is a creature, because Paul calls him “the firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15), for the following verses indicate that he is the creator, and not a creature.
And again – just as with Rev 3:14 – their only argument is that Jesus can’t be a creation if he is the Creator. But he’s not the Creator. His and our own God is the Creator. You see what they’re doing, Berean? It’s the same thing you and Kathi do. You try to eliminate the most logical default meaning of the Greek word by saying it would contradict this other thing – when the “other thing” isn’t even scriptural!
The Scriptures declare that Christ is “the only Son of God.” He is begotten, not created. As to when he was begotten, it is not for us to investigate it, and our mind would not be able to understand it if it were explained to us.
If one is “begotten”, then they are a new “creation”… hence the word “procreate“.
Gen 4:1 Now the man had marital relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. Then she said, “I have created a man just as the LORD did!”
Btw, that’s the same Hebrew word as in Proverbs 8:22 – where God created wisdom/Jesus as the first of His works. But the point is that I “created” my son, just as Kathi “created” her children. Likewise, God “begetting” Jesus is the same as God “bringing Jesus forth into existence” – which is the same as God “creating” Jesus. It is good that your author does mention that there was a time when the independent entity of Jesus did not exist, and at some point was brought forth into existence. (Of course they go on to cloud this fact with fantasies about Jesus existing inside of his and our God before God expelled him and made him his own entity – but that stuff is not only unscriptural, it’s nonsensical.)
…will be known as Jehovah-tsidekenu “the Lord our righteousness”.
Properly translated: Jehovah IS our righteousness. The city of Jerusalem is given the same, identical title in scripture, but it doesn’t mean Jerusalem is “Jehovah” – or even one of the members of your “Godhead”, right? This is just another case of people with a pressing desire trying to force the scriptures into teaching something they clearly don’t teach.
That’s enough for now, but let me leave you with a simple question, Berean…
According to scripture, is Jesus the holy servant of the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them? YES or NO, please?

June 1, 2021 at 7:14 am#871093
mikeboll64
Blocked
Mike: Now read your passage again with the discernment Paul showed here…
For he “has put everything under his feet.”Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself,……
Carmel: The above scripture Mike has nothing to do with “ALL THINGS JESUS RIGHT NOW POSSESSES” thus it is not referring to JESUS CHRIST CURRENT GLORIFIED STATE AS GODMAN…
It has everything to do with it. You’re trying to make the case that the word “all” absolutely must mean every single thing in every single context. My verse shows Paul nipping people like you in the bud by explaining things that most people don’t even need explained to them. For example, when it’s said that God created the heavens and the earth and EVERYTHING in them, it’s clear that this does not include God Himself – who is one of those things in heaven.
It’s just my way of letting Paul show you that you’re getting a little carried away by saying God gave Jesus EVERYTHING – INCLUDING GODSHIP or whatever. You’re taking things to far. Use discernment. And for Pete’s sake, stop using the unscriptural term “GODMAN”. There is no such thing.
June 1, 2021 at 7:23 am#871094
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
For one:
You asked: If you can tell me how God is “above” both me in Arizona and Tater in NZ at the same time, then I might read your article.
If you put a ball under a ceiling light, the light is above the whole ball.
Author
Posts

Viewing 20 posts - 22,361 through 22,380 (of 25,930 total)

←1 2 3…1,1181,1191,120…1,295 1,296 1,297 →

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

John16:14 He shall glorify ME;

The Holy Spirit glorified the Father throughout the OT, but from Jesus’ glorification, He is glorifying JESUS CHRIST, NOT THE FATHER but for the PLEASURE of the Father as well.

THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE!

because he shall receive of MINE, and shall show it to you.

THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVED JESUS’ UNIQUE GLORIFIED HUMAN/DIVINE ATTRIBUTES, WELL CLEAR IN

Acts 2o:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the HOLY GHOST hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.

GOD OF ALL FLESH!!!

For the sake and pleasure of the Father.Till the last day of the lord, when God would be

ALL IN ALL!

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

Navigation

Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

John16:14 He shall glorify ME;

The Holy Spirit glorified the Father throughout the OT, but from Jesus’ glorification, He is glorifying JESUS CHRIST, NOT THE FATHER but for the PLEASURE of the Father as well.

THE FATHER AND I ARE ONE!

because he shall receive of MINE, and shall show it to you.

THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVED JESUS’ UNIQUE GLORIFIED HUMAN/DIVINE ATTRIBUTES, WELL CLEAR IN

Acts 2o:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the HOLY GHOST hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with HIS OWN BLOOD.

GOD OF ALL FLESH!!!

For the sake and pleasure of the Father.Till the last day of the lord, when God would be

ALL IN ALL!

Recent Replies

Forums

Forum Topics

POPULAR WRITINGS

Study Tools

ABOUT THIS SITE

TOPICS

Navigation

Log in with your credentials

Forgot your details?

Create Account