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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • May 24, 2021 at 10:26 am#870961
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

     

    Regarding the “s” for singular here:

    A5BDD030-DF35-4B9B-9E27-97F0C8CC32EC
    The “2ms” mean second person, male, singular.” That is applying to the word “your”, not to the word “creators.”

    I believe that is correct from my very limited understanding of the Hebrew.

    I don’t have the time to deal with the rest of your post since I am far from home and busy with extended family near Chicago.

    Take care,

    LU

     

    May 24, 2021 at 11:03 am#870963
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Either way, knowing what we know about the Hebrew use of the plural of intensity, a plural “creators” doesn’t have mean more than one creator any more than a plural “elohim” has to mean more than one god.

    Just took a peek and found these easily…

    Screenshot (138)

     

    Screenshot (139)

     

    Screenshot (140)

     

    Screenshot (141)

     

    Most commentators render it as a singular “Creator”, noting that the plural form is a plural of majesty (as I suspected).  Some of them make the same mistake Trinitarians make with the plural “elohim” – thinking a plural of intensity can indicate a plural entity.  It doesn’t.  Just like with “behemoth”, it can either mean one intense beast, or more than one beast.  It will never mean a single beast comprised of multiple persons.  Likewise, “elohim” can only mean an intense god (YHVH, Dagon, Satan, Baal, etc) or it can mean more than one god.  It can never mean one god made up of more than one person.  Even if there existed such an entity, the plural of majesty would not and could not describe it.

     

    May 26, 2021 at 3:13 am#870980
    carmel
    Participant

    YOU:Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race

    resurrected all embodied in Him,

    ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. as much as the entire human race was in Adam on his creation!

    Thus we are all brothers of Jesus! NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.  Confirmed by Jesus:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER,

    Then He said:

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    OK? Mike, Jesus in the above also confirmed that

    HE EVENTUALLY, THAT SAME EVENING, ASCENDS

    BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER  OF  ALL SPIRITS, and

    OUR FATHER OF ALL FLESH, THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALSO

    TO THE GLORY OF HIS GOD  IN HEAVEN, and

    TO THE GLORY OF OUR GOD ON EARTH!

    Now read John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    AUTHENTIC BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH ON HIS RESURRECTION  they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS,

    GODMAN!

    1John 3:1Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us,

    that we should be called, and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him. 2Dearly beloved, we are now

    the sons of God; (SPIRITUAL WHILE IN FLESH ON EARTH)

    and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,

    when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is. 

    Answer WHO IS “HIM”and “HE” in the above?

     

    SIMPLY AS “THE WORD” JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, and

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS,

    GODMAN,  John13:31,32  ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT UNIFIED

    TWO IN ONE FLESH 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    Acts 2o:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock,

    wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops,

    to rule the church of God,

    which he (THE HOLY GHOST) hath purchased with his own

    blood. 

    YES MIKE WE ARE BROTHERS TO GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    John7:3Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee,

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    whom thou hast sent.

    1John5:19 We know that WE ARE OF GOD, and the whole world is seated in wickedness. 20And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we

    may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    May 28, 2021 at 11:03 am#871000
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.  But go to my brethren, and say to them…

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race resurrected all embodied in Him,  ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. 

    It is scriptural that Jesus is our brother.  It is scriptural that God is our Father.  It is NOT scriptural that God is our brother.  Nor is it scriptural that God is BOTH our Father AND our brother.

    We are told our relationship to both God and to Jesus in the scriptures.  We are brothers and joint heirs along with our brother Jesus of the good things he and we receive from his and our God and Father.  And we are children of God.

    Get it?  Siblings of and joint heirs with Jesus… children of God.  Not children AND siblings of God.

    Therefore, Jesus is not God.  End of story… unless you can produce scripture that says anyone is or will be God’s brother/sister.

    May 28, 2021 at 11:13 am#871001
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So Kathi, knowing that “creators” is just the plural of majesty like many mentions of the plural elohim, we are back to having no scriptures in the Bible that truly even mention “creators”.  We have many that mention our ONE Creator though.  Who is that One?

    May 28, 2021 at 1:11 pm#871012
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Plural majesty is a possibility which could mean the singular word in a fuller sense. The fullness of God is Father, Son and Spirit.

    YHWH created the world. YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords.
    Jesus is the Lord of lords. All things were made through Him.

    May 28, 2021 at 4:37 pm#871027
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Your post:

    And I have shown you that God can, right this very minute, cause Michael the archangel to be conceived on earth through a human woman who is of the lineage of King David.  And doing so would fit every single prophesy about the Messiah. So it’s okay to say that the Messiah will be flesh and of David’s lineage.  It’s not okay to impose other stipulations on God by saying this son of David couldn’t have already existed as Michael the archangel… or even as a stone or an eagle.

    I asked if you deny even the direct quotes from Jesus in the NT.  What is your answer?

    I have shifted this to “Was Jesus Jewish Messiah..” thread and please check my reply to this post there.

    May 30, 2021 at 8:04 am#871045
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: It is scriptural that Jesus is our brother. 

    It is scriptural that God is our Father. 

    It is NOT scriptural that God is our brother. 

    Nor is it scriptural that God is BOTH our Father AND our brother.

    ME: Mike PHYSICALLY SPEAKING God is not our father!

    THE PURE FACT THAT WE DIE.

    HE IS OUR FATHER IN RELATION TO OUR SOUL/SPIRIT. THE PURE FACT THAT THE SOUL NEVER DIES, EXCEPT SPIRITUALLY WHEN OCCUPIED BY SATAN. 

    SCRIPTURALLY, GOD GLORIFIED AS MAN IN JESUS CHRIST, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, WELL CLEAR IN

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him

    ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    John 13;31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED, and

    GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM. (GODMAN)

    32If God be glorified in him,

    GOD ALSO WILL GLORIFY HIM IN HIMSELF; (MANGOD)

    and immediately will he glorify him.(ON HIS DEATH)

    Now read John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    MIKE, ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST A HUMAN BEING,

    ALL GOD’S SPIRITUAL THINGS ARE GLORIFIED.

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    AUTHENTIC BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH ON HIS RESURRECTION  they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS,

    GODMAN!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    May 30, 2021 at 9:14 am#871046
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    Now read your passage again with the discernment Paul showed here…

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    When Jesus says all of God’s things are also his, he is talking about the many things that his and our God, YHVH, has given to and shared with His first-created Son, Jesus.  So no, this does not include the title of Most High God (although Jesus is indeed a god in his own right).  When you read that passage in the future, just remember the disclaimer Paul wrote in 15:27 – to make sure that, while Jesus is indeed very high up the ladder, he is still a servant of his and our own God, YHVH.

    Okay, so you can’t point to a scripture saying anyone will become a brother of God.  How about a scripture that says the Most High God will rule from the throne of one of His own servants? (Because there are scriptures where God Himself says that Jesus will rule from the throne of God’s servant David.)

     

    May 30, 2021 at 9:38 am#871047
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Plural majesty is a possibility which could mean the singular word in a fuller sense. The fullness of God is Father, Son and Spirit.

    Like I pointed out in my previous post, the plural of majesty doesn’t work that way. “Behemoth” can mean a particular, very majestic/intense/grandiose beast, or more than one beast.  It can NEVER mean more than one entity in a beasthead.  “Elohim” can mean a particular, very majestic/intense/grandiose god, or more than one god.  It can NEVER mean more than one entity in a godhead.

    So you are still free to believe that God consists of more than one person… but a pluralized “god” or “creator” won’t ever support your belief.  You’ll have to support it another way.

    LU: YHWH created the world. YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords.
    Jesus is the Lord of lords. All things were made through Him.

    YHVH is the God of gods and Lord of lords.  Jesus is the Lord of lords and King of kings.  Nebuchadnezzar is the King of kings.  But Neb and Jesus both being a King of kings doesn’t equate them or link them in any way.  Likewise, Jesus and God both being a Lord of other lords doesn’t equate or link them in any way.

    I do agree that God made all things through His first-created Son, Jesus.  We’re not told what “through” means in this case, so I don’t know if Jesus’ participation was “hands on” or not.  Most English translations have Proverbs 8:30 saying that Wisdom/Jesus was a “master craftsman” at God’s side. (Others translate that Hebrew word as “nursing child” – which plays better with all the previous mentions of him having been born or given birth.)  But master craftsman or not, “hands on” or not, the Bible clearly teaches that we have ONE Creator – not a couple or a few creators.  And that one Creator is the one who, according to the Apostles’ prayer in Acts (and many other scriptures), created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… both for and through HIS (singular) holy servant Jesus.

    One Creator.  One holy servant Jesus.

     

    May 30, 2021 at 10:47 am#871048
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    May 30, 2021 at 2:36 pm#871049
    gadam123
    Participant

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    These are the two questions floating from the very beginnings of Christianity and caused great controversy at the time of Council of Nicaea (325 CE).  I can clearly see these two questions are floating every where on this Heaven Net.

    The reason for this dilemma is due to the NT scriptures supporting both these groups. There is third group (Unitarians) who close their eyes and negate these two questions(views).

    Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

     

    May 31, 2021 at 2:54 am#871064
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

    Rejecting the NT is not a “neutral” position.  It is a hard and very biased stance.

    Me:  I believe the sky is green.

    You: Mike, here’s a bunch of evidence that the sky is blue.

    Me:  I reject your evidence out of hand, therefore the sky remains green no matter what you say.

    😉

     

    May 31, 2021 at 3:12 am#871065
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    gadam: Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

    Rejecting the NT is not a “neutral” position.  It is a hard and very biased stance.

    Me:  I believe the sky is green.

    You: Mike, here’s a bunch of evidence that the sky is blue.

    Me:  I reject your evidence out of hand, therefore the sky remains green no matter what you say.

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I have already gone through all these unending debates on various Forums especially on this Heaven Net for the past 12 years. I had struggled with sleepless nights on understanding these confusing doctrines on Jesus. I even suffered hypertension because of these unending debates on Jesus. I am now free from such confusing world of Christianity. You can call me anything I don’t take it wrong.

    But please see the dilemma raised by sister Kathi here. I have gone through her continous struggle to reply all of your arguments but the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings. One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings.

    This is the fate of our NT and Christianity.

    May 31, 2021 at 3:41 am#871066
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    When God said, “Let there be light”, was that light already a part of God’s eternal uncreated essence?  Or is the light we see comprised of essence that did not exist before God uttered those words?

    Who among us could know the answer? But even if it is the former, it doesn’t mean the light we see is also from eternity and has always somehow existed within the God who brought it into existence.  Same with the heavens and the earth.  Were they made from God’s eternal essence… or a created essence totally foreign to God?  If the former, it doesn’t mean the heaven and earth are from eternity.  And it is the same with Jesus, and all the other sons God created after him.

    The words are all right there in scripture.  You need only believe them. “The beginning of the creation by God”, “brought me forth as the first of His works”, “the firstborn of every creature”, etc.

    Jesus is the first thing God ever created.  He is not God, but God’s first creation.

    May 31, 2021 at 4:42 am#871067
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: …the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings.

    You mean as opposed to the OT – where there is no debate because every scholar in history accepts the same interpretation of every scripture? 😉  List for me one of the these “diverse Christological concepts” of which you speak.  Because I’ve also been here for 12 or more years, but instead of losing sleep, I’ve gained knowledge.  I know for a fact that the NT teaches Jesus as the son, servant, messiah, lamb, holy one, prophet and priest OF God – who existed alongside his God before the world began, and was subsequently sent by his God to earth to dwell as a human and preach God’s words to us and die as atonement for our sins.  It never teaches anything to contradict those things. But if you think it does, give me one example.

    gadam: One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings. This is the fate of our NT and Christianity.

    Most people are headstrong.  Gene has been arguing against preexistence for the same 12 years here – despite the many clear scriptures that teach that Jesus existed in heaven before being sent to earth.  Kathi has been arguing that Jesus is somehow the same God he is the son, servant, lamb and prophet of for the same 12 years – despite having no scripture that actually supports her belief.

    For Kathi and Carmel:  The son and servant OF God can’t possibly BE the very God he is the son and servant OF.  End of story.

    And for you, Gene, and Jodi: The fact that the Messiah was said to come from the line of David doesn’t exclude him from having already existed in heaven BEFORE he came from the line of David as a human being.  End of story.

    So the argument from both sides (“Jesus is God” and “Jesus only ever existed as a man”) are very easily refuted by scripture and logic.  And yes, that includes OT scripture – like Micah 5:2.  It clearly says that the one who will come in the future has already existed from way in the past.  The minute you posted your quote of somebody saying, “Well, that’s just speaking about his Davidic Kingdom origins”, I knew you had nothing to actually refute Micah 5.  Why?  Because your answer is clearly a twisting of scripture in an effort to NOT understand it in the most natural, straightforward way it could be understood.  How can the Davidic Kingdom be “from days of old, ancient times” from the point of view of someone who lived IN the Davidic Kingdom? 🤔  Same with Wisdom in Proverbs 8.  This is obviously a sentient person speaking – not the abstract notion of wisdom itself.  And if it’s not Jesus  (who is called the wisdom of God) speaking, then who?  After all, somebody has to be, “You are my Son.  Today I have begotten you”, right?

    gadam, who is God’s first creation – if not Jesus?  If it’s not Jesus, why do we know absolutely nothing about “the firstborn of EVERY creature”?  Did you ever think about that?

    May 31, 2021 at 4:56 am#871069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: When God said, “Let there be light”, was that light already a part of God’s eternal uncreated essence?

    Yes, but it wasn’t light that was physical, it was the spiritual Light that will light up eternity for those who believe.

    Furthermore, you claimed this: You need only believe them. “The beginning of the creation by God”, “brought me forth as the first of His works”, “the firstborn of every creature”, etc.

    For the believers in the Messiah as YHVH our Righteousness, we believe:

    Jesus is:

    Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation:

    Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…

    Heb 1:8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands. (That is said of the Son, btw.)

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    For me, I have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. My one Lord is someone other than the Father, btw.

    I hope that helps, LU

     

    May 31, 2021 at 5:21 am#871072
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hello gadam123,

    You said: But please see the dilemma raised by sister Kathi here. I have gone through her continous struggle to reply all of your arguments but the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings. One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings.

    I’m sorry to hear of your struggle in making sense of Jesus Christ. My constant debate with Mike has been very helpful to bring me deeper into my relationship with the Lord Jesus and to really know Him as the only begotten God and YHVH my righteousness in-spite of Mike’s lack to receive that truth. Don’t give up seeking Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father apart from Him. The search has eternal consequences and eternal rewards. If you deny Jesus, poor health will be the least of your concerns. If you believe in Jesus as the Lord of your life, you will learn to find peace that lasts for an eternity as you trust Him and His Father and are filled with their Spirit.

    My friend, our discomfort on this earth is so small compared to the eternal joy that awaits those who believe in Jesus as their Savior.

    Matt 6:25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

    I hope that helps, LU

     

     

     

    May 31, 2021 at 5:36 am#871073
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike says: Kathi has been arguing that Jesus is somehow the same God he is the son, servant, lamb and prophet of for the same 12 years

    Once again Mike represents my views as one without understanding of them. I have spoken of two persons who make  up the fullness of YHVH. One person is God the Father, another person is the one Lord, Jesus the Christ, the only begotten God. YHVH is both God and Lord. Mike thinks that the Father is both our one God and our one Lord. Scripture says otherwise. Mike also thinks the earth is flat…enough said.

    May 31, 2021 at 6:28 am#871074
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, how do you know the light God spoke into existence was of His essence?

    LU: Rev 3:14 …the originator of God’s creation…

    You often end your posts with the condescending “I hope that helps”.  Fortunately for me, I don’t have to “hope”, because for years I’ve watched you tweak your doctrine around the scriptural information I’ve shared with you.  The latest incarnation of that is you switching from “origin” to “originator” in Rev 3:14.  😎  But what if we just translated it as “beginning” – the default #1 definition of the Greek word – and the meaning of the same word by the same author in John 1:1?  What if you had no “wiggle room”, and it was somehow clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word was “beginning” in Rev 3:14?  How would it change your doctrine to know for a fact that Jesus was the BEGINNING of the creation by God?

    LU: Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    Again, even though the most natural meaning of the word in this context is “created”, you choose the “wiggle room” route of using the unnatural and illogical “possessed”.  Why?  What does it even mean that God “possessed” Jesus “AS THE FIRST OF HIS WORKS”?  Like: “The first thing God ever did in his eternal life was to possess Jesus!”  What does that even mean? Is God a demon who possessed Jesus?

    But don’t worry, you can keep your twisted “possessed” and still come to a correct understanding of the passage with the help of the following verses…

    24:  When there were no oceans, I was given birth…

    25:  before the mountains were set in place – before the hills – I was born…

    So “possessed” or not, you can’t hide from “given birth” and “born”.  And since that’s the case, it’s really of no benefit to fight for the much less likely and less sensible “possessed” in vs 22.  You might as well just accept “created” and be done with it.  (Wow, what if “beginning” in Rev 3:14 and “created” in Prov 8:22 were somehow forced on you, and you had no wiggle room to escape them? 😳😳😳  What then?)

    Of course, while we’re still on Proverbs 8, let’s not forget all of these…

    26: before he made the earth…

    27:  When he established the heavens… when he drew a circle on the face of the deep…

    28:  when he established the clouds above…

    29: when he gave the sea his decree… when he marked out the foundations of the earth…

    What do we do with those words from Jesus himself?  Do we accept them as proof that someone other than himself did all of these things?  Or do we blow them off as the insane utterings of a madman?  After all, he was “possessed” at the time, right? 😉

    LU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…

    Oh my… what would you ever do without all that wiggle room?  Genitive “every”, next word “creature” = “firstborn OF every creature”.  Question:  Was Jesus God’s literal firstborn or not?  Yes – even according to you.  Is there any context in that verse that would lead anyone to something other than the literal default meaning of “the one who was brought forth into existence first”?  No.   Kathi, you work so hard on wiggling out of the most natural and straightforward meaning of certain scriptures that you no longer see the forest for the trees.  Look at the beginning of that verse for crying out loud.  It clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN God.  And what does “firstborn OVER all creation” even mean?

    LU: Heb 1:8 …therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions…

    Um… God doesn’t have a God of His own.  Therefore, anyone who has a God of his own can’t possibly be God.  Nor does God have any need of somebody else appointing Him over and above anyone else.  On the other hand, someone who isn’t God would definitely benefit from his own God appointing him to a position of great power and glory.  I mean, if Jesus was God, what need would he have for someone else to set him above anyone else?  As God, he’d already have always BEEN above everyone else, right?

    You are so blinded by what you WANT to be the truth that you can’t even see that the very scriptures you present to bolster you case actually work against you.  But as long as I’m able, I’ll be here showing you these things, watching as you keep refining your doctrine… and maybe some day it’ll all just click for you.

    You see that, gadam?  This is why I’m here.  This is how it is done.  I can’t force the horses to drink, but it is a very light yoke for me to keep leading them to the water.  Eventually, they might just accept the scriptures for what they clearly say, and stop twisting them.  I mean, what if Kathi finally decides to accept that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the creation by God, was CREATED as the first of God’s works, and is the firstborn of every CREATURE God created?  What if she some day comes to accept that Jesus is the son, servant, messiah, holy one, lamb, prophet, and priest OF God – and as such can’t possibly BE the very God he is all those things OF?  When that happens, my efforts will not have been in vain.

    Btw gadam, since you and I are debating about Micah 5:2 (an OT scripture), will you now reject the OT along with the NT?  That was your argument, right?  Since the NT causes debate, we should just pretend like it doesn’t exist, right?  So will you now dump the OT as well?  Just curious.

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