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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 22,321 through 22,340 (of 25,930 total)
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  • May 21, 2021 at 9:05 pm#870870
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi All, I am just quoting the old post from Thinker here to show that how the NT writers created mess for Christianity.

    “To All,
    Why is it that anti-trinitarians do not run to defend the purity of Christ’s person? Not one unitarian here cares that his Christology and his hamartiology compromises the simple truth that Christ was a lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT. I have pointed out several times that Christ is a lamb without blemish and without spot and I did not get so much as one post saying “Good point thinker”.

    I’ll tell you why. It is because unitarians want a savior that is in their own image. But God deemed it fitting that our high priest be without weakness,

     

    Quote
    For such a high priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners….For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:26, 28)
    God said that it was “fitting” that our high priest be holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from us. But the unitarian says “No” to this. He says that it was fitting that our high priest be like us in every way. He says, “Jesus had to have sinful desires like us or we do not want Him”.

    God also said that Christ was appointed high priest by oath. This means that Christ had no weakness. But the unitarian cries “foul” and says, “If Jesus didn’t have weakness then he had an advantage over us”.

    This kind of reasoning is so pathetic! Christ’s “advantage” was not over us but was for our benefit. It is a good thing for Kerwin, Nick, and Marty that ALL blasphemies against the Son are forgiveable (Matthew 12:32).

    thinker”

    I could not come across even one thread on this Heaven net that could end these arguments on Jesus. The reasons are well know to us that the Christology of NT writers is diversity and not unity on Jesus. The result is confusion.

    May 23, 2021 at 2:03 am#870918
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The Father through the Son, i.e. both.

    It took both to complete the creation therefore, one cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.

    Jesus says it was the Father.  Jesus’ apostles say it was the Father.  And while the KJV uses the word “creator” 5 times…

    Screenshot (127)

     

    … there is no instance of “creators”…

     

    Screenshot (125)

    You are free to believe that we have two different Gods who are our Creators.  As for me, I will stick to the scriptures.

     

     

    May 23, 2021 at 2:09 am#870919
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  YOU:  No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.

    John 1:12-13

    But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man,

    but born of God.
    ME: Mike God is a SPIRIT BEING!

    If we are born of A SPIRIT  BEING

    WE ARE BORN SPIRITUAL  BEINGS/SONS!

    Read it again.  John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God.  That will be after the resurrection… not now.  For that, we must be born again of water and spirit – not of flesh as we are now.  In the meantime, we are to live AS IF we are currently opposed to the flesh and are already spiritual sons of God, but actually BECOMING spiritual sons of God will be a later event for those deemed worthy.

    Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    May 23, 2021 at 2:40 am#870920
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: “The point of the phrase is that this future ruler, who may indeed be the Messiah, will have come forth from Bethlehem because his royal origins are “of old, from days of yore,” i.e., from the old and venerable House of David, and David was born in Bethlehem.”

    Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture?  God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times.  Not “royal origins”.  Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore”.

    I find your argument uncompelling and biased – as if written by someone who was purposely bending over backwards to try to explain away a scripture which, taken at face value, clearly speaks of a coming one who had already been in existence for a very long time.

    I find the arguments concerning Proverbs equally uncompelling. I don’t find it feasible that the “son” mentioned in 30:4 was “Israel”.  Why not “David”?  Why not “Solomon”?  Why not “JESUS”?  The person you quoted simply searched to find instances of someone being called God’s son in the OT, and said, “Well, my personal bias is that Jesus is nothing special, therefore the ‘son’ spoken of in 30:4 must be Israel – because I don’t want it to be Jesus”.

    And as for wisdom being God’s wife or literal wisdom… the former is unscriptural heresy, and the latter implies that God lacked wisdom in the beginning, and had to create it.  Knowing that Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”, and that God created all things through Jesus, His firstborn creation, Prov 8 makes perfect sense.

    But how does one argue these points to someone who rejects the NT – and bends over backwards to make sure none of the OT verses are taken at face value?

     

     

    May 23, 2021 at 3:26 am#870921
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’

    Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.

    May 23, 2021 at 5:55 am#870925
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike,  where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at?  And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive,  before he was born on this earth either. There are certainly scriptures predicting his birth on this earth, in the Hebrew text, but none saying he was alive before his birth, nor any activity of him found, in any scripture before his birth on this earth either,  if you have found some please post them brother. I don’t mean scriptures where it can be “assumed” as such,  but scriptures that actually and specifically say that, especially in our original Hebrew Scriptural text,  which have been far less tampered with then the Greek Trinitarian, Catholic texts were.
    I believe like Paul said, basically if it is not backed up by the original Hebrew text, it is highly suspect. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    May 23, 2021 at 6:01 am#870926
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture?  God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times.  Not “royal origins”.  Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore.

    Me: Because Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined. There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God. Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.

    The Messiah has to be the seed of David but not any supernatural godly being as the NT writers and Christianity invented;

    1 Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

    1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

    1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took [it] from [him] that was before thee

    Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: The Lord our Righteousness.

    2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
    2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

    Hope this will resolve your problem.

    May 23, 2021 at 6:52 am#870928
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike, where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at?

    1 Corinthians 1:22-24

    Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    Gene: And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive,  before he was born on this earth either.

    Didn’t we just go through this?  I showed you John 8:58, where Jesus said he existed before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, right?  You didn’t respond.  Why not?  Why would you ignore the answer to this very question – just to ask the same question 2 weeks later? 🤔

    May 23, 2021 at 7:10 am#870929
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Hi Mike,

    Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’

    Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.

    I led you right to that, didn’t I? 😉  Why do you think the YLT translated it as plural?  Why do none of the other English translations render it that way? Now you have two choices:  You can claim one unique and abnormal translation of one Bible verse by one single translator as a victory of some sorts, or you can do a little digging.  Is the plural translation in the YLT legit?  A typo? A misunderstanding of the Hebrew language?  Does Ecclesiastes as a whole give hints that there are two Gods and two Creators?  Later in that same chapter we read…

    Ecclesiastes 12:13

    Having heard everything, I have reached this conclusion: Fear God and keep his commandments because this is the whole duty of man.

    Not “fear Gods” and keep “their” commandments?  Hmm…  Yeah, you might want to do a little more digging.  I’d seriously be interested in hearing your defense of the YLT’s plural versus the singular that every other Bible has.

    May 23, 2021 at 7:33 am#870931
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined.

    God was indeed talking (through Micah) about a forthcoming ruler.  You offer no evidence that this ruler wasn’t a godly being – or that the NT writers imagined anything at all.  You offer only your own baseless claims of these things.  Nor have you addressed my earlier point that calling the House of David something “from days of old” WHILE the House of David was still ruling Judah would have been a nonsensical thing for God (or Micah) to do.

    gadam: There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God.

    I don’t claim Jesus’ origins are from eternity, nor does any Bible scripture – OT or NT – claim such a thing.  But yes, as God’s firstborn Son, brought forth as the first of God’s works (Prov 22), the beginning of the creation by God (Rev 3:14), and the firstborn of every CREATURE (Col 1:15), the Bible indeed says Jesus was the first thing ever created by God.

    gadam:  Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.

    Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim.  God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman.  Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.

    Do you understand these things, gadam?  You boldly claiming that your coming Messiah MUST BE according to certain parameters that you’ve devised on your own are meaningless to God.

    gadam, do you deny the entire NT – including the direct quotes of Jesus?

    May 23, 2021 at 9:26 am#870933
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.

    Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.8D8CFB4B-C020-4A7B-AEFC-50624F634696

    That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.

    Gill’s Exposition:

    Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,…. Or “Creators” (b); as “Makers”, Job 35:10; for more than one were concerned, as in the creation of all things in general, so of man in particular, Genesis 1:26; and these are neither more nor fewer than three; and are Father, Son, Spirit; the one God that has created men,

     

     

    May 23, 2021 at 9:35 am#870934
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    ”Makers” is plural here:

    E93E4254-0FA5-48C5-BD37-0B731DEE4156

    and here:C35ACAEE-F470-4EFA-99AB-8B11E2F6AC6D

     

    May 23, 2021 at 9:54 am#870935
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    In Ecc:12:13, the Hebrew word translated as “God” is plural.

    47E88229-44D6-48A0-AF39-66EAF8B56E36

    May 23, 2021 at 11:40 am#870936
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike,

    The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.

    Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.

    The Trinity Doctrine has well been put to bed in these forums.

    Your argument is the same except there is one less member of the God substance entity.

    Just look to the debunking of the Trinity Doctrine and try and come up with something new that hasn’t been debunked yet. Otherwise you are promoting debunked ideas which no one will take seriously.

    The Trinity Doctrine

    May 23, 2021 at 11:50 am#870937
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:Read it again.  John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God. 

    YES Mike, definitely

    John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believed in His name,

    Me ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:

    Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,

    to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believe in His name,

    WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:

    LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.

    He gave the right to become children of God—

    THERE AND THEN while on earth!!!

    Romans: THERE is now, therefore, no CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus,

    who walk not according to the flesh.

    2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the

    law of sin and of death. 

    SIN and DEATH are NOT APPLICABLE FOR THOSE WHO LIVE  SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST,

    DESPITE WE DIE ON EARTH!

    Now read hereunder:

    John 11:26 And every one that liveth, (WHILE ON EARTH)

    and believeth in me, ( TO THE EXTENT THAT HE LIVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST)

    shall not die FOREVER……

    NOT EVEN WHEN HE DIES PHYSICALLY AS A HUMAN, LIKE JESUS DID,  for the simple reason that he would be already dead in his flesh through his spiritual life in Christ while on earth, as a spiritual person.

    Thus already spiritual in the truth, ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD ON EARTH,  He only has one task to go through;

    DEATH! BUT THAT’S ONLY ACCORDING TO THE WORLD! 

     IN THE TRUTH  IT’S NOT DEATH AT ALL BUT LIFE AND CONTINUE

    LIVING THE SPIRITUAL LIFE AS CHILDREN OF GOD, IN HEAVEN, IN FACT 

    NOT EVEN JUDGED!!!

    OBVIOUS, SIMPLY AS WE ALREADY JUDGED OURSELVES  AS HUMANS IN FLESH, DESTROYED OUR FLESH BODY WHILE ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST.

    Now read and perceive the truth;

    John5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word,

    and believeth him that sent me,

    hath life everlasting;(WHILE ON EARTH)

    and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life.

    Mike I am repeating what I said :

    I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PERCEIVE

    THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH!

    IT’S ALL HEREUNDER:

    Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow,

    and the third day I am consummated. 

    In the above Jesus confirms that He is the only human being who became

    SPIRITUAL ONE SUBSTANCE IN THE HOLY GHOST,  WHILE HE IS ALSO IN

    HIS FLESH PERFECT BODY!

    READY TO BE SACRIFICED AS THE PERFECT RANSOM

    A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT!

    33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,

    because it cannot be that a prophet perish, (NOTICE, NOT DIE, PERISHES)

    out of JERUSALEM.

    Notice OUT OF JERUSALEM! WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS REFERRED TO?

    Mike, where did Jesus die, inside or outside JERUSALEM???

    DEFINITELY OUTSIDE! NO?

    ANSWER: WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS MEANT IF HE, A PROPHET,

    “PERISHED” OUTSIDE JERUSALEM? 

    YOU:Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race resurrected all embodied in Him,

    ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. as much as the entire human race were in Adam on his creation! 

    Thus we are all brothers of Jesus! NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.  Confirmed by Jesus:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER,

    Then He said:

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    OK? Mike, Jesus in the above also confirmed that 

    HE EVENTUALLY, THAT SAME EVENING, ASCENDS 

    BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER  OF  ALL SPIRITS, and

    OUR FATHER OF ALL FLESH, THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALSO

    TO THE GLORY OF HIS GOD  IN HEAVEN, and

    TO THE GLORY OF OUR GOD ON EARTH!

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH, they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS, 

    GODMAN!

    SIMPLY AS “THE WORD” JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, and

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS,

    GODMAN,  John13:31,32  ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT UNIFIED

    TWO IN ONE FLESH 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    May 23, 2021 at 2:31 pm#870939
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim.  God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman.  Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.

    Me: Your post made me laugh. Yes Christianity can make any thing possible as it had already invented the same in its NT. I have quoted number of verses from Hebrew Bible for proving that Messiah has to be a normal human being and will be the seed of David. So that will end our arguments on the origins of Messiah. In fact NT writers searched the Hebrew Bible to find the bits and parts to suit their ideology on Jesus but the Jews of Jesus’ time rejected Christian Messiah. Nothing changed till date for God’s people. Virgin birth, preexistence, first creation, Binity, Trinity, Arianism, Unitarianism  etc are all the results of the seeds sown by these writers of NT. What else we can expect from such writings….. a complete havoc and confusion which is clearly visible on this Forum.

    Thanks for nice chat…..Adam

    May 23, 2021 at 6:28 pm#870941
    gadam123
    Participant

    For Mikeboll64….

    Invitation to participate in the debate on the following threads as we are deviating from the topic  John 1:1;

    1. Christian writers Misquoting Texts – What does Hebrew Bible really say?
    2. Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?
    3. Question of Parousia of Jesus – how Christianity manage the dilemma?
    May 24, 2021 at 5:52 am#870954
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.

    And the “s” in the “ms” that follows stands for singular.  Same with Job.  As for “god” being in the plural form, YHVH Himself refers to Satan, Dagon, Asteroth, Baal, etc. with the plural “elohim”.  It’s called the “plural of majesty” or “plural of intensity” – and the Hebrew language uses it a lot.  For example, the word “Behemoth” is simply the plural form of “beast”.  We use the context and the pronouns/verbs to help determine if the plural is being used to intensify the noun, or as a real plural describing more than one thing.  For example, in Gen 1:26 that you mentioned, we know from the plural form of verbs used that it is God talking to those who are not God – because the plural of majesty doesn’t apply to verbs or pronouns.  So in your view of one God made of two people, Gen 1:26 is that one binity God talking to OTHER people who are not him/them.

    So no, we still have only one God and one Creator – unless you want to include ALL of those to whom God said, “Let us make man in our image” as co-creators with God.  Plus, your reasoning fails when you want to proclaim one God/two persons, but then ascribe to that ONE God the PLURAL term “creators”.  Understand?  If you want to refer to Father and Son as two “creators”, then you need also refer to them as two “Gods”.  If, on the other hand, you prefer the “one God/two persons” theory, then you’re also stuck with “one Creator/two persons”.  Unless you’re willing to state for the record that God is the Creators. 😉

    Anyway, if I get time I’ll do a little more digging on the plural “creators” in the YLT.  It’s interesting to me that the participle is masculine plural, but the suffix is masculine singular.  And I don’t know enough about the Hebrew language to say what any of that means, but even without the singular suffix, the plural part could just be another case of the plural of intensity, like the plural elohim and behemoth.

    May 24, 2021 at 6:10 am#870956
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:

    Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,
    to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believe in His name,

    WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:

    LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.

    I understood your point the first time, and tried to show you how it was wrong.  Here…

    John 3:5-7

    Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’”

    See it now?  Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God… but not in our flesh bodies.  Flesh is born of flesh – not of spirit.  We must be born again of spirit to achieve “spiritual children of God”.  That will come after the resurrection – not while any of us are still flesh entities.  Flesh cannot see, inherit, or enter the kingdom of God.  And only those who enter God’s kingdom will be His spiritual children.

    There will still be flesh children of God after the resurrection, dwelling on the new earth.  Jesus gave all of us the RIGHT to be accepted into the kingdom of God as spiritual children – but only a few will achieve that goal.  Most of us who are resurrected to everlasting life (and not the second death) will live that life out as flesh children of God on the new earth. Very few will rule with God and Jesus as spiritual sons from the new heaven.

    Carmel, will anybody become a BROTHER to God?

    May 24, 2021 at 6:20 am#870957
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: I have quoted number of verses from Hebrew Bible for proving that Messiah has to be a normal human being and will be the seed of David.

    And I have shown you that God can, right this very minute, cause Michael the archangel to be conceived on earth through a human woman who is of the lineage of King David.  And doing so would fit every single prophesy about the Messiah. So it’s okay to say that the Messiah will be flesh and of David’s lineage.  It’s not okay to impose other stipulations on God by saying this son of David couldn’t have already existed as Michael the archangel… or even as a stone or an eagle.

    I asked if you deny even the direct quotes from Jesus in the NT.  What is your answer?

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