Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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May 2, 2021 at 5:52 am#870451
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…….Very, very good brother, Berean needs to break his faith in false trinitarian teachers and start to think, with his own mind guided by the Spirit of God.
Berean, what we are telling you is solid truth brother.
peace and love to you and yours………gene
May 2, 2021 at 6:07 am#870452
Berean
Participant
Gene

Sorry, but You, Jodi, Mike …are not right about WHO IS “THE WORD”
Revelation 19:13 say us That the ONE named THE WORD OF GOD IS JESUS CHRIST WHO DIED FOR YOU AND ME
GOD BLESS

May 2, 2021 at 7:32 am#870453
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..True it doesn’t say that JESUS did not preexist his birth, but plenty texts say he was prophesied to be born as a child to us, a son has been given us, Right? No one text anywhere say a “PREEXISTING ” being has been “morphed” into a human body that i know of at least.
Also we do have scripture that calls him a “second” Adam. So if he were a second “Adam” as scripture says , then the assumption would be he indeed had come into his “only existence” as a “type” of Adam, Further reasoning would be Adam was a first of a kind of humanity, then Jesus being pined to him analytically , as a first of a kind, would also be first of a kind of human right?
Jesus is analytically tied to humanity, nothing else is he? , Of course to God the Father also. This would be different if there were direct text showing a PREEXISTING Jesus, or any kind of activity of him before his birth on this earth.
scripture also shows clearly his “ONLY” connection to life was from the Loins of his King David, and as a root of Jesse through the line of Abraham then to Adam. That is the biblical line given in scriptures. So that pretty much proves he did not preexist them, but was a progeny of them. Remember Jesus himself said it three times and so did Paul, as well as other apostles also. And we have what Moses said , “the LORD shall raise up “from”your brethren a prophet like me”. From where? from there brethren, no where does Moses say from somewhere else, would he come, now does he ? So that to me itself, proves Jesus could not have preexisted his birth on this earth.
So while it is not specifically written that Jesus did not preexist his birth on this earth, it is certainly implied by many, many scriptures, and so I draw that conclusion from those scriptures and others also..
So unless someone can show those scriptures do not truly mean what they say, then i will hold on to what those scriptures imply to me.
Mike i really do appreciate your splendid research brother, between you and Jodi, and hopefully Adam , and others we can make heaven net, a real place to find truth, of our scriptures, by teaching sound scriptures and giving solid understandings to them.
peace and love to you and yours……..gene
May 2, 2021 at 7:52 am#870454
Berean
Participant
Gene
Pre-existence of Christ :
….the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, Trudy, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

“before Abraham was, I am.”
GOD BLESS

May 2, 2021 at 7:59 am#870455
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean…….I am beginning to believe even if Jesus himself told you, that he himself wasn’t the word, you wouldn’t believe him either. Your indoctrinated into fallen religious teachings, and are stuck and can’t break free. SAD
peace and love to you and yours………gene
May 2, 2021 at 8:16 am#870456
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Carmel……. you are trying to make it sound like Jesus was saying he was “alive” before Abraham was, you have one problem the word “alive” is not there.
Don’t you think that if Jesus wanted them to believe he meant “alive” he would specifically have said that?
Jesus said that Abraham looked “forward” to see his day and saw it, and was glad., why would he have to look forward to his day if he were already alive at his time?
peace and love to you and yours……..gene

May 2, 2021 at 8:33 am#870457
Berean
Participant
Gene
JESUS KNOWS THAT HIS CHILDREN WHO DO NOT COMPLICATE WITH THINGS KNOW THAT HIS FIRST TITLE AND NAME IS “THE WORD”
May 2, 2021 at 9:06 am#870458
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Heb 1 says that it was through the Son that the Father created the world. The Father gave the vision, the Son carried out the vision to reality. No wonder the Father gives the Son the credit of bringing the creation into reality. One did not do that without the other.
Also regarding this, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God…
The actual work of creation originated in the Son who laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens with his hands. The Son is the origin of the creation of God not a first creation of the creation of God. This is not hard.
Also the Son knows everything, John 16:30, and all that was made, originated through his work, thus he is the “origin” of the creation. That is why he can be considered the faithful and true witness of the creation of God.
Jesus did say that God created…the Father created the world through Him, the Son. The Father and the scriptures tell us this a few times. John 1:3, Col 1:16+, Heb 1.
Mike, you asked:
If Heb 1:10 is the Father telling us that the Son created the heavens and the earth, then it means the Father DIDN’T create the heavens and the earth. How do you reconcile this?
Heb 1:10 is telling us that it is the Son that did the work of creation (the work of his hands it says), it isn’t saying that the Father didn’t give him the vision to do so. The Father is giving the Son the credit of carrying out the Father’s vision in Heb 1:10 at the same time, identifying the Son as YHVH.
True story…I have recently designed a house, I have a builder that is about to start building it. I did the designing, he is doing the building. We both are taking part of the creation of my house. I am providing the vision and the plans, and he is going to be carrying out the plans. I am not going to take credit for the actual labor of constructing the house. However, I do take credit for designing of it. The actual work of physically making the house will have it’s origin in the builder/contractor, not me, the builder will begin the work of the creation of my house. The actual designing of the house has it’s origin in me. My builder will be able to be a witness to the creation of my house because he is carrying out the work according to the blueprints I gave him. Without my part, my house would not get built. Without his part, my house would not get built.
May 2, 2021 at 9:32 am#870459
Berean
Participant
Amen
Very interesting Lu
May God continue to guide you
May 2, 2021 at 10:46 am#870460
carmel
Participant
Hi Mike,
YOU: Jesus is a fellow servant of God along with his followers.
Matthew 20:21Who said to her: What wilt thou? She saith to him: Say that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left,
in thy kingdom
Luke 23:42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come
into thy kingdom.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us
into the kingdom of the Son of his love,
Mike, WHY THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALSO ONLY CALLED
THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, why not also called
THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER, thou definitely is also of the Father.
WHY IT IS NOT ALSO THE KINGDOM OF ANY OF
JESUS’ FOLLOWERS? or ANY OTHER OF THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF GOD?
WHAT IS SO UNIQUE ABOUT JESUS, SO UNIQUE THAT HIS KINGDOM IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
IF JESUS’ KINGDOM IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD,
ISN’T JESUS GOD?
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God?
Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men,
I should not be the servant of Christ.
WHY IT’S IMPORTANT FOR PAUL TO SAY THAT HE SHOULD BE THE SERVANT OF CHRIST AS MUCH AS HE PERSUADES GOD?
WHEN PAUL PERSUADES GOD, HE DOES NOT ALSO SERVE CHRIST AND GOD AS WELL?
WHEN PAUL SERVES CHRIST, HE DOES NOT PERSUADE GOD AND CHRIST AS WELL?
IF IN ONE INSTANT, WHEN PAUL PERSUADES GOD HE ALSO SERVES CHRIST AND VICE VERSA, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD AND CHRIST?
ISN’T GOD CHRIST AS MUCH AS CHRIST IS GOD?
John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;
and I am glorified in them.
In HIS/GOD’S kingdom
AFTER ALL, IF THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD,
THE BODY OF GOD IS CHRIST. NO?
NOW, WHAT IS THE HEAD WITHOUT THE BODY, IT’S NOT JUST A SKULL?
AND WHAT IS THE BODY WITHOUT THE HEAD, IT’S NOT JUST A TRUNK?
NO GOD NO JESUS
NO JESUS NO GOD
1 John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,
when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:
because we shall see HIM as HE IS.
Mike answer:
WHO IS “HIM” and “HE” in the above?
GOD?
JESUS CHRIST? or both
GOD and JESUS CHRIST?
TWO IN ONE FLESH
ONE MORE THING, IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE
DO YOU BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT
GOD IN CHRIST IS YOU and
YOU IN CHRIST IS GOD?
John14:20 In that day you shall know,
that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
WHAT A KIND OF SERVANT JESUS “THE WORD” IS!!!WOW, WOW, and WOW!
Isaiah 55:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, (NEITHER MY SERVANT AS YOUR SERVANT) saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
(AND MY SERVANT ABOVE YOUR SERVANT)
11So shall MY WORD be,
which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

May 2, 2021 at 10:54 am#870461
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene,
ME: RETURN TO SANDER!
Carmel……. you are trying to make it sound like Jesus was saying he was “alive” before Abraham was, you have one problem the word “alive” is not there.
Don’t you think that if Jesus wanted them to believe he meant “alive” he would specifically have said that?
Jesus said that Abraham looked “forward” to see his day and saw it, and was glad., why would he have to look forward to his day if he were already alive at his time?
peace and love to you and yours……..gene

YOU REALLY ARE LOST
BUT FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH,
DO YOU KNOW THAT A BEING COULD EXIST BUT NOT LIVING AS SUCH?

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

May 2, 2021 at 8:46 pm#870467
Proclaimer
Participant
@genebalthrop
No one text anywhere say a “PREEXISTING ” being has been “morphed” into a human body that i know of at least.
Really?
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
May 3, 2021 at 1:40 am#870469
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Proclaimer……the word of God, “came into existence”, what was that word, it was the “prophesied”, word of God, given through the prophets, it came to pass, it was the human being Jesus Christ, get it? , there is no word itself that could ever become flesh, that is impossible for that to happen, because words are Spirit not flesh and blood, like Jesus was .
God’s word and God are one and the same thing, just as you and your words are. Nothing mysterious or difficult about it, common sense should tell you that.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
May 3, 2021 at 2:49 am#870470
GeneBalthrop
Participant
To all…..God’s “WORD” and GOD , are one and the same PERSON and being. NO ONE IS GOD’S WORD, BUT GOD HIMSELF, never was any nor ever will be either.
If his “words” abides “in” you then God is “in” you and you are “in” him . God and his words are Spirit,
“Now if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwell “IN” you, he that raised Jesus Christ from the grave, shall “ALSO” quicken your mortal “BODY” , BY HIS SPIRIT THAT DWELL “IN” YOU”.
Just that simple, we must all be born again by the Spirit of the living God, exactly as Jesus Christ our lord was, if we are to ever have eternal life given us.
The man Jesus was never God’s word himself, even though he delivered the words God the fathers gave him to tell us. He plainly told us the, “the words i am telling you are “NOT” my “WORDS” but the words of him that sent me. Is anyone here able to understand that simple truth that Jesus himself said? There seems to be only just a few that do. Simply amazing to me, that everyone here can’t understand those simple things.
peace and love to you all and yours…………gene

May 3, 2021 at 3:22 am#870471
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Also we do have scripture that calls him a “second” Adam. So if he were a second “Adam” as scripture says , then the assumption would be he indeed had come into his “only existence” as a “type” of Adam…
Read the next verse, Gene…
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven.
The second Adam is from heaven, as opposed to the first Adam, who is from the dust of the earth. Jesus also said, “I am the living bread that came down from heaven.” (John 6:51)
Here’s my challenge to you and Jodi… Empty your mind and pretend you know nothing about scripture, and are reading these verses for the first time in your lives. What would you immediately think when reading these words that clearly say Jesus is “from heaven”?
Gene: scripture also shows clearly his “ONLY” connection to life was from the Loins of his King David…
Romans 1:3
concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh…
So not his “ONLY” connection, but a son of David according to the flesh. Think about that, Gene. Why on earth would Paul even include the words “according to the flesh” if Jesus’ “ONLY” connection to David was a normal fleshly one?
Revelation 22:16
I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.
Is your son both the root AND the offspring of Gene? No… just your offspring. Why would any descendent claim to be the ROOT of their ancestor – implying that they came before their own ancestor? Could it be that Jesus was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”, and the root of David in some other form – meaning he existed before David in one form, and after David in another?
Gene: …through the line of Abraham…
John 8:58 NLT
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”
Gene, the verses you and Jodi quote to point out that Jesus came after Abraham, and after David, and after Moses are true – but don’t in any way whatsoever prohibit Jesus from also being BEFORE all of them in a different sense.
Get it? Jesus was after David… but only according to his fleshly existence on earth. He was after David (the offspring), but also before David (the root). He was after Abraham as a human, but was also in existence before Abraham was even born.
Micah 5:2
But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.
See? Jesus was to be a FUTURE ruler and prophet that God would send out of Bethlehem – but his origin was already way in the past even from Micah’s time on earth!
So you and Jodi do a brilliant job of showing all the scriptures that say Jesus WILL come in the future, and WILL be from Jesse and David, and WILL be a FUTURE ruler sent by God – but you completely ignore or twist the DOZENS of other scriptures that clearly say that while Jesus WILL come in the future, he already existed BEFORE the very people who prophesied about him coming in the future.
Once you guys get past that hurdle, then you’ll be able to take verses like these at face value instead of twisting them to your own desires…
Philippians 2:5-7
You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though he existed in the form of a god, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature.
It says what it says, Gene. Jesus was already existing in the form of a god BEFORE he shared in human nature.
John 17:5
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.
It says what it says, Gene. Jesus already had glory in heaven alongside God before the world was created.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
It says what it says, Gene. There is only one who ever dwelt on earth with the glory of the only begotten of our heavenly Father. That one was with God in the beginning, and then became flesh and dwelt among us on earth for a while.
Of course there are many others, but I hope this at least gets you thinking. Yes, Jesus came AFTER Abraham, Jesse, David and Micah… but he also existed before any of them were even born. You only teach half of the story. It’s time you and Jodi open your eyes to the rest of it. Cheers
May 3, 2021 at 4:48 am#870472
Berean
Participant
Gene
You
Proclaimerer……the word of God, “came into existence”, what was that word, it was the “prophesied”, word of God
Me
NOT WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE

YOU
God’s “WORD” and GOD , are one and the same PERSON and being. NO ONE IS GOD’S WORD, BUT GOD HIMSELF, never was any nor ever will be either.
Me
‘Not written in The Bible
But IT IS WRITTEN IN REVELATION 19:13
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called The Word of God.
God bless
May 3, 2021 at 6:05 am#870473
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one. Lets just start with that first, Then we can move on to the “root and offspring” part . Which i believes is saying “root” of the family linage of Jesse, but the direct “offspring ” of David. So he is both from the root and is the offspring . He could not even be a offspring of David, if he preexisted his birth on this earth.
please present any scripture that states directly that Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , show any single scripture that “specifically ” says that. Or foe that matter any activity of hm before his birth on this earth.
This is not to even mention , if what you people believe is true, then what proof would that be to any one, how  a human can become perfect and holy?
Your not taking into consideration the very purpose of a “real” human being become perfected and reborn by the spirit into the family of God. Answer this question to what purpose would it prove to mankind, if God took another God or what ever, then killed him and then “morphed” him into a human body and then passed him off as a real human being?
No purpose at all, it would just be a sham, i really do not believe God the Father is into shamming people.
Jesus’s true linage is well documented in our scriptures, all the way back to Abraham, not a single scripture say any where that Jesus was from the seed of God , but it does say he came from the loins of King David, in the flesh, and became a son of God later, when he was anointed , God the father even said “this day” i have begotten you”, not sometime in the past. We all have to be begotten by God , in order to become sons of God ourselves. Just like our brother, The man Jesus born of the flesh, and was born again of the Spirit later , “exactly” the same way we must be. Therefore he is the first born of “MANY” BROTHERS, as a son of God, from the human race.

Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

May 3, 2021 at 7:01 am#870474
mikeboll64
Blocked
LU: Heb 1 says that it was through the Son that the Father created the world.
Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world. So it’s another example (like the prayer in Acts 4 and Jesus’ own words in Mark 13:19) where God is identified as the Creator, while Jesus is clearly identified as someone else.
We also know from Proverbs 8 that Jesus was created/born/given birth (numerous mentions) as the first of YHVH’s works, and then proceeds to tell about how he was there when YHVH created this, that, and the other. So in Mark 13, we have Jesus distinguishing himself as someone other than God who created all things. And in Proverbs, we have Jesus identifying himself as someone other than YHVH who created all things.
We are told that God created through his Son – but we’re not really told what that means. Likewise, Gen 1:26 (“Let us make man in our image”) implies that God’s heavenly sons played some role in the creation of man, but we don’t know what that role was. This note from NET Bible rings true to me…
In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court… If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27).
So when I think of Job 38:7, where the morning stars sang and shouted praises while God laid the foundations of the earth, I think about Jesus referring to himself as a morning star in Revelation, and about Jesus saying in Proverbs 8 that he was rejoicing in God’s presence daily while God created the heavens and the earth and the mountains and human beings, etc. Could it be that Jesus – who identifies himself as a morning star in Rev and rejoiced at God’s creations in Proverbs – was one of the morning stars who sang and shouted praises in Job 38:7?
My understanding is founded in explicit scriptures. Yours is founded in the twisting of certain scriptures to force them into your speculations. Scripture doesn’t mention any “God the Son”, or “YHVH the Son”, or “Creator the Son”, etc. These things are only in your mind. Scripture says that God (one entity) created everything through his Son (a completely different entity who is clearly and categorically and explicitly identified as someone OTHER THAN the God who created all things).
He who creates is one. He through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian

LU: The actual work of creation originated in the Son who laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens with his hands.
arche <746>
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing
in a series, the leader
The default meaning of the word is “beginning/origin”, ie: the first person or thing in a series. As with our word “origin” (which can mean “the first thing” or “that by which something comes to be”), arche can also mean either. But your choice doesn’t fit the context. Like with the story of your house, it would be absurd to say, “Builder Bob was the ORIGIN of the house that Kathi created.” Nor would we ever say, “Data Programmer Ted was the ORIGIN of the Apple Computer Company that Steve Jobs created.”
Just like the two statements above give no context that we actually mean these people are the origin of “the hands on part” of your and Steve Jobs’ creations, Revelation 3:14 gives no context that Jesus is the origin of “the hands on part” of God’s creation. Besides, by saying “the actual work”, you’re basically saying that you put zero work in on the design of your new home. Are you really saying that designing isn’t actual work? Have we been paying architects a fortune for nothing? 😁
Anyway, without a clear and explicit distinction that Rev 3:14 is referring only to the “manual labor” part (which you still haven’t proven Jesus even did), Jesus saying that he is the “origin of God’s creation” cannot refer to him being the ORIGINAL SOURCE (because he wasn’t), and can therefore only refer to him being the “first person or thing in a series”, ie: the BEGINNING or FIRST CREATED THING.
Now, add that to Col 1:15 (firstborn of every CREATURE) and Proverbs 8 (created me as the FIRST of HIS works), and Micah 5:2 (his ORIGIN is from ancient times), and you’ll start to see a clear picture.
Kathi, it really doesn’t matter how much you WANT your speculation to be the truth. The scriptural fact is that it simply isn’t.
LU: Also the Son knows everything…
Mark 13:32
But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Jesus disagrees with you.
LU: Jesus did say that God created…the Father created the world through Him, the Son.
We are told in other scriptures that God created through his Son, but Jesus simply said that God was the one who created. Don’t you find that odd if Jesus knew it was really the work of his own hands that were responsible for the heavens and the earth and everything in them? How odd to say someone else created the things that YOU actually created. 🤔 Anyway, we agree that according to Jesus himself, his and our God did the creating.

LU: Heb 1:10 is telling us that it is the Son that did the work of creation (the work of his hands it says), it isn’t saying that the Father didn’t give him the vision to do so.
In your scenario, Heb 1:10 is God (who is only addressed as “God”, and never as “the Father” by the author of Heb 1) giving credit for the creation of the heavens and the earth to the Son. Of course Heb 1:10 doesn’t actually say that this is something God said to the Son. In fact, the preceding verses spell out clearly that God is saying something about the Son, and the following verse does the same. 1:10 is right in the middle with the notable and glaring ABSENCE of the words “God also says about the Son…”
LU: The Father is giving the Son the credit of carrying out the Father’s vision in Heb 1:10 at the same time, identifying the Son as YHVH.
Let’s lay this out clearly…
1. The author of Ps 102 prayed specifically, knowingly, and solely to YHVH the Son (the one who actually did create the heavens and the earth).
2. The author of Heb 1 somehow knew that this particular prayer to YHVH in Ps 102 was not to YHVH the Father, nor to YHVH the Binity (Father and Son together) – but to YHVH the Son alone (the one who actually laid the foundations of the earth and stretched out the heavens).
3. The author of Heb 1, by attributing the words in Ps 102 to God, is therefore saying that the prayer of the afflicted soul in Ps 102 was actually a prayer made by God (whom he previously credited with creating the world in verse 2) to YHVH the Son (who he is now crediting with creating the world).
Does that sum it up? God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth? Hmm… I’m not sure about that one.
May 3, 2021 at 7:56 am#870475
mikeboll64
Blocked
Gene: Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one.
What about this one?
John 8:58 New Living Translation
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”
The Greek words…
said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I exist
Gene, that is an exact translation of the Greek words Jesus actually said. The only odd thing for us in English, aside from the order of the words (for example, we’d say “Jesus said unto them” instead of “said unto them Jesus”), is the present tense of of those last words “I exist”. They are in the Greek present tense, but read this from the NET scholars…
Did you see that? “Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek… Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.”
John 14:9 is a great example of this…
King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
The Greek words translated above as “Have I been” are actually in the present tense (just like “I exist” at the end of John 8:58). While most English Bibles rightly translate those present tense Greek words (“Am I?”) as past tense (“Have I been?”) because it makes better sense to us, some Bibles keep it in the present tense anyway…
Berean Literal Bible
Jesus says to him, “Am I with you so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip?
It’s just a matter of differences between languages. Your wife wouldn’t say, “I am married to you for 40 years now.” Instead, she’d say, “I have been married to you for 40 years now.”
So just like the KJV above (and most English translations) fix the tense problem in John 14:9, they leave it as “I am” in John 8:58 because they think YHVH means “I AM”, and they pretend that in 8:58 Jesus is somehow claiming to be YHVH simply by uttering the phrase “I am”.
Anyway, the proper meaning of John 8:58 is conveyed in the New Living Translation I posted above…
Jesus answered, “The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!”
They didn’t change the meaning of the words. They merely properly rendered the Greek “I exist” (present tense) into our equivalent “I existed” (past tense) – just like the vast majority of Bibles do in John 14:9.
When I do the same thing, here are the exact Greek words Jesus said…
said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I existed
So now you know that there is indeed a scripture that explicitly says Jesus existed before Abraham existed. Cheers
May 3, 2021 at 8:38 am#870476
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You said:
Does that sum it up? God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth?
Of course, the Father wasn’t the psalmist. In Hebrews 1,the Father was making the connection of what was said in the Psalm to who actually carried out those acts during creation, it was the Son, whom the psalmist calls YHVH and God.
Enjoy your day! LU
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….the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, Trudy, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

“before Abraham was, I am.”

in thy kingdom

into thy kingdom.

into the kingdom of the Son of his love,

Mike, WHY THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS ALSO ONLY CALLED

THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, why not also called

JESUS’ FOLLOWERS? or ANY OTHER OF THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF GOD?

ISN’T JESUS GOD?

Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God?

I should not be the servant of Christ.

John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

and I am glorified in them.

In HIS/GOD’S kingdom

NO GOD NO JESUS

NO JESUS NO GOD

when he shall appear, we shall be like to him:

because we shall see HIM as HE IS.

WHO IS “HIM” and “HE” in the above?

GOD?

JESUS CHRIST? or both

GOD and JESUS CHRIST?

TWO IN ONE FLESH

GOD IN CHRIST IS YOU and

YOU IN CHRIST IS GOD?

John14:20 In that day you shall know,

that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

WHAT A KIND OF SERVANT JESUS “THE WORD” IS!!!WOW, WOW, and WOW!

11So shall MY WORD be,

which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

ME: RETURN TO SANDER!

DO YOU KNOW THAT A BEING COULD EXIST BUT NOT LIVING AS SUCH?

and his name is called The Word of God.

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