Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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October 24, 2020 at 3:24 am#867063
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU:
Jodi
Jesus tells us that he came down from heaven (his first home and that of the Father) to come and do not his own will but that of the One who sent him.
How can you not believe this?
ME: First off this “first home” business is NOT true, not only never mentioned as such by Jesus but is against scripture.
1 Chronicles 17 and Psalms 89 tell you directly there was NO SON YET, NO FIRSTBORN YET. There was going to be a son of David who THEN God was going to make him into His Son and would also settle him into His house. This son of David, God also said that He was going TO MAKE him into His firstborn.
Secondly, Jesus says that he was SENT just as others were SENT, that he was not from this world as others were not from this world. Also Jesus tells you directly WHEN he was SENT, and you are told that God SENT he whom He had given the Spirit to not by measure. Moreover you are even told that our savior had not come until AFTER the baptism John preached.
You simply do not apply scripture with scripture and thus you do not have true understanding.

October 24, 2020 at 3:40 am#867064
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean and All,
Seriously??
Jesus is the ONLY mortal man to be begotten with the Spirit without measure, it comes to abode upon him for the purpose of him to be sent out into the world to PREACH the TRUTH, where those who believe are saved. But to you people that is NOT Jesus as God’s only begotten Son who was sent into the world full of grace and TRUTH? Really?
Jesus was full of grace and truth because he pre-existed as God’s only begotten son where he then became a baby?
He was NOT full of grace and truth because he was God’s Word made true unto the son of Jesse where the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence for the LORD came to abode within him? Really?

October 24, 2020 at 3:58 am#867065
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean. …..where Jesus came from, was exactly as the prophets said, here is what MOSES said,
Deu 18:15……“the LORD thy God will raise up unto you a “PROPHET” from the midst of you, of (from) your “BRETHERN”, “LIKE ME” , unto him shall you harken, then in verse 18, God himself said this, I will raise them up a “Prophet”  (where will he come from) , “from among their BRETHERN, “LIKE UNTO YOU” , and will put “MY WORDS” in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that “I SHALL COMMAND HIM”.
No where there does it even hint at a “prexisting ” being being sent to earth , but a human being that would come from one of the tribes of Israel, and scripture say it is “EVIDENT’ that our savior sprang from the tribe of Judah.
Why add to what is clearly said Berean?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
October 24, 2020 at 5:06 am#867066
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene, Berean. …..where Jesus came from, was exactly as the prophets said, here is what MOSES said,
Deu 18:15……“the LORD thy God will raise up unto you a “PROPHET” from the midst of you, of (from) your “BRETHERN”, “LIKE ME” , unto him shall you harken, then in verse 18, God himself said this, I will raise them up a “Prophet”  (where will he come from) , “from among their BRETHERN, “LIKE UNTO YOU” , and will put “MY WORDS” in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that “I SHALL COMMAND HIM”.
No where there does it even hint at a “prexisting ” being being sent to earth , but a human being that would come from one of the tribes of Israel, and scripture say it is “EVIDENT’ that our savior sprang from the tribe of Judah.
Why add to what is clearly said Berean?

Gene, No where there does it even hint that
Jesus is not a “PRE-EXISTANT” being.
sent to earth,
It only makes you aware which
ROAD JESUS TOOK SIMPLY TO BE ACCEPTED AS A UNIQUE BEING
JUSTIFIED AS
THE MESSIAH
NOT OF EARTH BUT
OF HEAVEN.
1Corinthians 15:It is sown a natural (EARTHLY)body,
it shall rise a spiritual(HEAVENLY) body.
If there be a natural(EARTHLY) body,
there is also a spiritual (HEAVENLY)body,
as it is written: 45The first man Adam was made into a living soul;( ON HIS CRATION)
the last Adam into a quickening spirit. (ON HIS BIRTH)
46Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;
afterwards that which is spiritual.
47The first man was of the earth, earthly:
the second man, from heaven, heavenly.
48Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly:
and such as is the heavenly, such also are they
that are heavenly.
49Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly,
let us bear also the image of the heavenly.(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS IN
JESUS CHRIST)
Colossians 15:Who is the image of the invisible God, (BEFORE ANYTHING EVER CREATED ASSERTED HEREUNDER GENE:)
the firstborn of every creature:
16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.
(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS ASSERTED HEREUNDER)
17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.
MORE TO COME

Peace and love in Jesus Christ
October 24, 2020 at 5:31 am#867067
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Carmel…..you don’t understand the Greek words for “before” has nothing to do with time, but it’s about “importance” like saying this person is befor that person, he is in the front position, or ahead of as in position.
CARMEL WHY NOT DO WHAT the Apostle Paul said, be as a Berean who searched the scriptures, he was not meaning the new testement scriptures because they were not written yet, he was talking about the old Testement scriptures, that existed at that time, he told them that, if what ever they were preaching must line up with the old Testement or they simply were not to believe them.
So the Berean’s search those scriptures for the truth. Why not try that instead of using miss interpreted words to try to support your false teachings.
There is no indication of a preexisting Jesus, not one mention of him as an already existing being of anykind, ever mentioned in the Old Testement . Jesus never said he was “alive” before Abraham, he meant he was more “important” to them, then Abraham was.
You have fallen for Satan’s biggest lie about who Jesus is, even though Jesus himself said he c was the SON OF MAN, over eighty times himself. When are you and others here start to believe him?
Jesus plainly said that , “many” would come in my name saying I am the Christ, and “Decieve” many. You are part of that group of decievers. My advice to you is to repent.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

October 24, 2020 at 7:43 am#867068
Berean
Participant

Jodi
You
Hi Berean,
YOU:
Jodi
Jesus tells us that he came down from heaven (his first home and that of the Father) to come and do not his own will but that of the One who sent him.
How can you not believe this?
ME: First off this “first home” business is NOT true, not only never mentioned as such by Jesus but is against scripture.
Me
Jésus saidin John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
The Son of God is from heaven
He came to earth incarnated by the power of God and returned to where he was before.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?(v.58)

October 24, 2020 at 7:47 am#867069
Berean
Participant
Gene
Jésus said in John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
The Son of God is from heaven
He came to earth incarnated by the power of God and returned to where he was before.
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?(v.58)
October 24, 2020 at 8:47 am#867070
Proclaimer
Participant
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?(v.58)
How does Gene and his teacher Jodi explain that one away. Oh I remember. With a long essay that no one reads.
October 24, 2020 at 8:53 am#867071
Proclaimer
Participant
Proclaimer where have we ever said God Has not placed Jesus above all thing,
I don’t know. Where then?
October 24, 2020 at 8:59 am#867072
Proclaimer
Participant
Paul: in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Gene: In him all things WERE NOT created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have NOT been created through him.
God: you will die
Satan: You will not surely die
When scripture says it is, Gene and Jodi say it is not. Why is that?
October 24, 2020 at 9:09 am#867073
Berean
Participant
John 6:42
And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?
Jodi and Gene
You are like those unbelieving Jews who saw in Jesus only the son of the carpenter and of Mary.
Jesus answered them
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
[44] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
[47] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

October 24, 2020 at 2:09 pm#867076
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Berean…..I have never seen the words “incarnated” from God” please show me exactly where that is written, or is it just something you believe in?
What was he before he was as you say “incarnated” , please show me in scriptures , I have never seen any scripture that describes him before he ever came to the earth, didn’t he say, if you have seen me you have seen not me, but the FATHER, do you believe he is God the Father “ALSO”?
Tell me, is ‘incarnated, the same as MORPHED? , tramsformed from one kind of existence to another, like or perhaps like a worm being transformed into a butterfly?
When you figured that out, please tell us what has that to do with “mankind” seening Jesus was not a real human being, but was only desguised as one of us. That’s exactly what the Gnostics of Paul and Johns time were preaching. The one’s he called Anitchrist’s.
Berean you have been feed a Hugh PACK OF LIES, that Satan has produced to make Jesus appear different then the rest of humanity. In fact “completely” “DIFFERENT” , then his human brothers and sisters.
Repent.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

October 24, 2020 at 2:19 pm#867077
Proclaimer
Participant
Tell me, is ‘incarnated, the same as MORPHED? , tramsformed from one kind of existence to another, like or perhaps like a worm being transformed into a butterfly?
This might help as far as bodies go.
There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
And
who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The Word became flesh. Now he is with the Father, in the glory he had with him before the universe.
October 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm#867078
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Proclaimer, Jodi and I completely agree with what scriptures “actually ” say , it’s you false interpretations we disagree with.
Jodi is not my teacher , nor am I hers,  “the Spirit of truth” we have recieved from God the Father is our teacher, Just as Jesus said, we would all be taught by God, we know t h e sound of the true Shepard because his words have “the sound of truth”, to us and we reconize them.
We do not follow the “wide way” that leads to destruction , of false religions, we take the “narrow” road that “few” find.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

October 24, 2020 at 2:25 pm#867079
Proclaimer
Participant
Proclaimer, Jodi and I completely agree with what scriptures “actually ” say , it’s you false interpretations we disagree with.
But you don’t believe that God created the universe through him do you?
October 24, 2020 at 2:29 pm#867080
Proclaimer
Participant
“the Spirit of truth” we have recieved from God the Father is our teacher, Just as Jesus said, we would all be taught by God, we know t h e sound of the true Shepard because his words have “the sound of truth”, to us and we reconize them.
But you don’t believe the truth. If you did, you would believe this:
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
October 25, 2020 at 2:42 am#867085
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Proclaimer…..We certainly do believe what he “actually” said, because we have the same spirit guiding us as he did. As far as every word translated properly, no we DON’T , because some words are translated wrong , unless those words agree with what is written in the OLD TESTEMENT, and espically if they counterdict what is written there.
Example….. you say Jesus created everything, or God did it “through” Jesus, using that point to try to prove that Jesus prexisted his birth on this earth. But what does the “OLD TESTEMENT” say,
Isa 44:24……Thus says the “LORD” , your redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the “LORD” that makes “All” things; that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE” ;  that spreads abroad the earth by “MYSELF”.
What Jodi and I believe is that God said he “himself” created everything and he did it “Alone” and by “HIMSELF” , Your and other here on the other hand, reject GOD the Fathers own words , written in the Old testament by saying Jesus created everything. So there is a contradiction in the scriptures, right?
Now what should we do with those counterdictions between the OLD TESTEMENT AND THE NEW?
The apostle Paul said the Berean’s were more noble the those in Thessalonica, in that they recieved the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the “Scriptures” daily, whether those things were so.
Now what scriptures do you think they “Searched” to see if what they were hearing was true? , it could not have been the NEW TESTEMENT, why ?, because it hadn’t even been written at that time, so the “ONLY” SCRIPTURES they had was the Old Testement.
So what ever is taught if it does not line up with the Old Testement scriptures, there is a problem with that teaching. What we say does not disregard what is written in the Old Testement as you people do.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
October 25, 2020 at 12:51 pm#867090
carmel
Participant
Hi Gene:
Carmel…..you don’t understand the Greek words for “before” has nothing to do with time, but it’s about “importance” like saying this person is befor that person, he is in the front position, or ahead of as in position.
Strong’s Concordance
pro: before
Original Word: πρό
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: pro
Phonetic Spelling: (pro)
Definition: before
Usage: (a) of place: before, in front of, (b) of time: before, earlier than.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. preposition
Definition
before
NASB Translation
above (2), ago (4), ahead (2), ahead* (2), before (30), front (2), just outside (1), prior (1), right (1).
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4253: πρό
πρό, a preposition followed by the genitive (Latinpro) (from Homer down), the Sept. chiefly for לִפְנֵי, before; used a. of place: πρό τῶν θυρῶν, τῆς θύρας, etc., Acts 5:23 R G; ; James 5:9; by a Hebraism, πρό προσώπου with the genitive of a person before (the face of) one (who is following) (Buttmann, 319 (274)): Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:76; Luke 7:27; Luke 9:52; Luke 10:1 (Malachi 3:1; Zechariah 14:20; Deuteronomy 3:18).b. of Time: πρό τούτων τῶν ἡμερῶν, Acts 5:36; Acts 21:38; (πρό τοῦ πάσχα, John 11:55); according to a later Greek idiom, πρό ἕξ ἡμερῶν τοῦ πάσχα, properly, before six days reckoning from the Passover, which is equivalent to ἕξ ἡμέρας πρό τοῦ πάσχα, on the sixth day before the Passover, John 12:1 (πρό δύο ἐτῶν τοῦ σεισμοῦ, Amos 1:1; πρό μιᾶς ἡμέρας τῆς Μαρδοχαϊκῆς ἡμέρας, 2 Macc. 15:36; examples from secular writings are cited by Winers Grammar, 557 (518); (cf. Buttmann, § 131, 11); from ecclesiastical writings by Hilgenfeld, Die Evangelien etc., pp. 298, 302; also his Paschastreit der alten Kirche, p. 221f; (cf. Sophocles’ Lexicon, under the word πρό, 1 and 2)); (πρό τῆς ἑορτῆς, John 13:1); πρό καιροῦ, Matthew 8:29; 1 Corinthians 4:5; τῶν αἰώνων, 1 Corinthians 2:7; παντός τοῦ αἰῶνος, Jude 1:25 L T Tr WH; ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων, (fourteen years ago), 2 Corinthians 12:2; add, 2 Timothy 1:9; 2 Timothy 4:21; Titus 1:2; τοῦ ἀρίστου, Luke 11:38; κατακλυσμοῦ, Matthew 24:38; πρό τῆς μεταθέσεως, Hebrews 11:5; πρό καταβολῆς κόσμου, John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20;
πρό πάντων, prior to all created things, Colossians 1:17;
(πρό τούτων πάντων (Rev. ἁπάντων), Luke 21:12); by a Hebraism, πρό προσώπου with the genitive of a thing is used of time for the simple πρό (Winers Grammar, § 65, 4b.; (Buttmann, 319 (274))), Acts 13:24 ((literally, before the face of his entering in)). πρό with the genitive of a person: John 5:7; John 10:8 (not Tdf.); Romans 16:7; οἱ πρό τίνος, those that existed before one, Matthew 5:12; with a predicate nominative added, Galatians 1:17. πρό with the genitive of an infinitive that has the article, Latinante quam (before, before that) followed by a finite verb (Buttmann, § 140, 11; Winer’s Grammar, 329 (309)): Matthew 6:8; Luke 2:21; Luke 22:15; John 1:48 (49); ; Acts 23:15; Galatians 2:12; Galatians 3:23.
c. of superiority or pre-eminence (Winer’s Grammar, 372 (349)): πρό πάντων, above all things, James 5:12; 1 Peter 4:8.
d. In Composition, πρό marks α. place: προαύλιον; motion forward (Latinporro), προβαίνω, προβάλλω, etc.; before another who follows, in advance, προάγω, πρόδρομος, προπέρμπω, προτρέχω, etc.; in public view, openly, πρόδηλος, πρόκειμαι. β. time: before this, previously, προαμαρτάνω; in reference to the time of an occurrence, beforehand, in advance, προβλέπω, προγινώσκω, προθέσμιος, πρωρίζω, etc. γ. superiority or preference: προαιρέομαι. (Cf. Herm. ad Vig., p. 658.)
October 27, 2020 at 4:40 am#867103
Jodi
Participant
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU: But you don’t believe the truth. If you did, you would believe this:
“but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.”
ME: Gene is absolutely right, we believe that scripture, and Gene points out to you how you deny an OT passage and don’t apply it to this one, where thus you create a contradiction.
The Son is an heir to that which YHVH made Himself, all alone, where He made all things doing so by reason that this Son would be His heir to receive it.
Proclaimer, I’m actually surprised you used this verse, as it directly tells us there was no Son who spoke before, no Son who spoke until these last days. No Son who spoke until the son of Jesse was begotten of the Spirit not by measure (an ONLY ONE promised to receive that glory) for the purpose to be SENT a savior, PREACHING God’s word and delivering captives.

October 27, 2020 at 10:12 am#867104
Berean
Participant
Jodi
You
The Son is an heir to that which YHVH made Himself, all alone, where He made all things doing so by reason that this Son would be His heir to receive it.
Me
it is THE BIBLE THAT IS AUTHORITY … NOT THE NEGATION OF THE BIBLE

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
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Gene, No where there does it even hint that

Jesus is not a “PRE-EXISTANT” being.

sent to earth,

JUSTIFIED AS

THE MESSIAH

NOT OF EARTH BUT

OF HEAVEN.

the last Adam into a quickening spirit. (ON HIS BIRTH)

47The first man was of the earth, earthly:

the second man, from heaven, heavenly.

that are heavenly.

let us bear also the image of the heavenly.(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS IN

JESUS CHRIST)

the firstborn of every creature:

17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

MORE TO COME

πρό πάντων, prior to all created things, Colossians 1:17;

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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

Gene, No where there does it even hint that

Jesus is not a “PRE-EXISTANT” being.

sent to earth,

JUSTIFIED AS

THE MESSIAH

NOT OF EARTH BUT

OF HEAVEN.

the last Adam into a quickening spirit. (ON HIS BIRTH)

47The first man was of the earth, earthly:

the second man, from heaven, heavenly.

that are heavenly.

let us bear also the image of the heavenly.(BEFORE THE WORLD WAS IN

JESUS CHRIST)

the firstborn of every creature:

17And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

MORE TO COME

πρό πάντων, prior to all created things, Colossians 1:17;

Recent Replies

Forums

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