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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • October 22, 2020 at 2:31 am#867006
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..You as the rest have bought into the biggest “lie”  in religion, which makes Jesus different the the rest of humanity, and that “lie” is exactly what Satan wants you to believe. 

    Jodi and I both believe , this in the beginning of God the Fathers creation of this earth he had in mind the comming into existence the “MAN” Jesus, and at the proper time he brought him forth as a 100% human and only a human being, he never “prexisted ” his berth on this earth, except in the “plan” of Almighty God. 

    At the proper time God brought Jesus forth from humanity, from  the linage of King David, just as Jesus himself said, as well as the apostle Paul.  He did not send to this earth a “preexisting ” being , and morph him into a human body as you people “FALSELY” PREACH. 

    What you Proclaimer,  and they have done is take a ordinary human, how be it  a highly exhulted and glorified human , and turned him into a God, or  Angel, or as in your case “whatever”, I don’t recall you ever saying exactly, but it dosen’t matter,  because you haven’t a clue what he was before his berth on this earth neitherdo they.  So you just go alone with the rest of  the false teachers here.  

    You can call me and Jodi what ever you people want to, but we have a advantage over you people, we have the “spirit of truth” “in” us guiding our thoughts, we are taught by that Spirit given us, Just as Jesus said ,”you shall all be taught by God” , You and they on the other hand are taught by a deluding Spirit given those who do not “love” the truth.  

    Thats the difference here, you people turn  a man, into your object of worship and even your  God,  you completely ignore the first commandment,  “you shall have no other God besides me” .  You act as if that commandment doesent even exist, not to even mention the rest of what God the Father has said, you have not the fear of God “in” you.  You People deny scriptures even though we produce those scriptures over and over to you. You twist up and add word to almost every scripture you use,  to try to justify you false teachings. Instead of asking God for the “Spirit (cognisity) of Truth” so you can reconize the truth when you hear it , you follow after the teachings of Satan, the deluding Spirit that exists in most all of Christianity.  The Spirit of the air that works in the childern of disobedience. 

    To all……go back and “steady”  what Jodi wrote,  10/20/2020,  post # 866980 . 

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    October 22, 2020 at 3:53 am#867008
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..You haven’t begun to understand truth, what you post not only dosen’t make sense, but is not even quoted as it is written.  Why do you feel you must add your own words to the text, is it not to support your false assumptions?   Carmel,  nearly “all” christanity have been corrupted over the last 2000 years.  The modern churches today have fallen away from the truth, and bought into Satan biggest lie, about  the “SON OF MAN” JESUS, being turned into a GOD,    2THS2  , explains it all to those who have eyes to see.  That man mentioned there is the “MAN” Jesus Christ.  Who you along with your teacher Satan Has turned into your GOD and you worship him as your God .  Just as all the apostate churches do. Let’s see where that “IDOLATROUS ” practice will end you up at. 

    You still have time to repent Carmel.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

     

     

     

     

    October 22, 2020 at 4:13 am#867009
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Yes, the very word translated as angel, Mal’ak, means messenger, and sometimes the surrounding context let’s you know that the Mal’ak is a celestial messengers verses a human messenger.

    Daniel 3 is no proof that Jesus pre-existed and was this particular Son of God who God sent to carry out His will and save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

    October 22, 2020 at 8:46 am#867012
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Daniel 3 is no proof that Jesus pre-existed and was this particular Son of God who God sent to carry out His will and save Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

    Of course you will brush off all the similarities if you do not accept direct evidence of the Son being the first begotten. For us who accept these scriptures that reveal the truth, we see other scriptures in the context of the firstborn of all creation.

    I agree that the Angel of the Lord and the Son who was before the cosmos is not direct proof for someone who doesn’t believe. But for us who believe, it is certainly very interesting.

    Let’s imagine that there was a scripture that called him the Angel of the Lord in the New Testament. You would brush it off wouldn’t you? How do I know? You did that with The Word of God.

    BTW, description is not the only clue. There are other reasons for seeing the two as the same person. But you wouldn’t accept them because you are set in your ways.

    October 22, 2020 at 1:16 pm#867015
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Your statement is truly hypocritical.

    What are ALL the similarities in this case that point that this would be a pre-existent Jesus, the words “The Son of God”?

    John 1:7 is not referencing the LIGHT of Isaiah 42?

    John 1:10 doesn’t fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy of people rejecting their own kin as the anointed one?

    John 1:12 isn’t directly referencing Isaiah 45?

    John 1:14 is not YHVH’s Word of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 being made true in the flesh of Jesus? 

    John 1:16 isn’t referencing prophecy of Deuteronomy 18?

    John 1:49 isn’t referencing prophecy of of 1 Chronicles 17 and Psalms 89?

    ALL throughout John 1 you are being given prophecies fulfilled that were promises given unto the son of Abraham, Jesse and David, not promises unto a pre-existing son. In John 1 you are given YHVH’s word from the beginning of a man of David’s seed coming to be our savior executing God’s purpose for why He created all things ALONE in the first place, not a pre-existent firstborn Son coming to earth in order to save us.

    According to 1 Chronicles 17 and Psalm 89 there existed at that time NO Son of God yet who would one day receive an eternal kingdom, there was no firstborn yet who would be made higher than all the kings of the earth. 

    You can’t even accept scripture that YHVH said He created all things ALONE by HIMSELF, and that Jesus is a son of David according to the flesh and is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, where he had received that Spirit when he rose from the dead according to a promise. 

    October 22, 2020 at 8:40 pm#867016
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your statement is truly hypocritical.
    What are ALL the similarities in this case that point that this would be a pre-existent Jesus, the words “The Son of God”?

    Jodi, you need to tame the tongue.

    Did I not say there were scriptures that directly talk about the Son of God / Jesus Christ’s ancient origin?

    Then I stated that there are lots of inferences that line up with the direct scriptures as you would imagine if a certain thing were true. But that the inferences were not direct evidence on their own. And yes I can list them. But I’m not going to write an essay. I will maybe list one soon and if you pursue this, I might list more.

    Please pay attention Jodi. As you can see, I am not being hypocritical.

    October 22, 2020 at 8:42 pm#867017
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    Jesus tells us that he came down from heaven (his first home and that of the Father) to come and do not his own will but that of the One who sent him.
    How can you not believe this?

    October 22, 2020 at 9:03 pm#867020
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Direct evidence showing his ancient origin

    Colossians 1:15-16
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    You obviously do not believe this as it is written. I bet you say you believe it, but your explanation will add or takeaway from what is clearly written. Whereas, myself and others can state this the way it is written and we fully stand behind it.

    An inferred or possible truth that aligns with the direct evidence

    Judges 13:18.

    Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    6383. pili or pali

    Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    6382 pele

    Some people ask, if Jesus Christ existed before coming in the flesh, then where is he mentioned in the Old Testament? Well we know he was the Word in the beginning and that he came in the flesh. But where is he actually mentioned. First off, this is a mystery, so it was not revealed in that time. But in hindsight (2020 AD), we read about the Angel (Messenger) of the LORD who many actually called God or the LORD which certainly aligns well with Colossians 1:15 quoted above.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    You see, if Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, then the Angel of the LORD who was visible and called God, gives us a match. But whether we consider this or not, clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and we also know that Jesus is called a messenger / angel in the Old Testament.

    Malachi 3:1
    “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking  will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.

    Most scholars read this as John the Baptist and Jesus Christ.

    October 22, 2020 at 11:14 pm#867028
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly. It doesn’t need inference, but truth is often accompanied by inference or circumstantial evidence.

    October 22, 2020 at 11:24 pm#867032
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Pray to God and ask that he open the scriptures to you

    He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”

    And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

    When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. They asked each other,

    “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    October 22, 2020 at 11:46 pm#867039
    Ed J
    Participant

    Some people ask, if Jesus Christ existed before coming in the flesh, then where is he mentioned in the Old Testament?

    Hi T8,

    That’s an easy one, here is the verse right here:

    4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered
    the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment?
    who hath established all the ends of the earth?
    what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?     (Prov 30:4)

    And here is what God says will happen to those who add to his word:

    5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” (Prov 30:5-6)

    A liar is one who tells lies, period.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    October 23, 2020 at 4:09 am#867044
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Satan uses cercumstanucial evidences to created his “Lies”,  like all those who force our bibical texts to say what in fact,  is not saying .  If you understood the reason why Satan wants people to believe in a “preexisting ” God/man Jesus, then you could understand the truth.  Satan does not want us to relate with Jesus on a human level, because he knows how much “FAITH” in GOD the Father that would generate in people, so he devised a plane to moves Jesus away from him being a ordinary  HUMAN BEING, a second Adam,  who GOD took from mankind and  ELEVATED to the highest position there is,  besides God himself,  he fully understands the human potential in mankind, and dosen’t want the rest of humanity to see that,  EXACTLY AS JESUS IS SO ARE WE. 

    It’s time you and everyone else here  gets rid of your so-called  “cercumstanucial ” evidences,  and get down to,  “the truth”.   Modern Christanity  teaches the biggest lies about the true Jesus there is and all based on “cercumstanial” evidence,  a twisted version of  what the truth is, designed by Satan himself. 2THS2.  

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene 

     

    October 23, 2020 at 9:14 am#867050
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..You haven’t begun to understand truth, what you post not only dosen’t make sense, but is not even quoted as it is written.

    Gene, IT’S NO USE SCREAMING UNLESS YOU SIMPLY BE

    DECENT ENOUGH

    TO INCLUDE IN YOUR POST MINE, AND WHICH FOR YOU

    IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE,

    PLUS THAT YOU CONTRADICT ME BY USING WHAT IS FOR YOU FULL OF SENSE AND

    PROPER SCRIPTURE.

    AS IT IS THOUGH

    I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SCREAMING ABOUT.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    October 23, 2020 at 9:19 am#867052
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer…….Satan uses cercumstanucial evidences to created his “Lies”,  like all those who force our bibical texts to say what in fact,  is not saying .  If you understood the reason why Satan wants people to believe in a “preexisting ” God/man Jesus, then you could understand the truth.

    Show me the scripture that teaches us that. If you cannot, then this is from your own reasoning. Not that this makes you wrong, but you are wrong because we can state scriptures about Jesus Christ without adding or taking away from them, and you never quote them verbatim because they say the opposite of what you believe. When you quote them, you add in a commentary that adds or takes away from them.

    October 23, 2020 at 9:22 am#867053
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    On a number of occasions, I have taken a scripture and made it look like my own words, by embedding it in a sentence that didn’t change the meaning one iota. And I watched you argue against it. That was all the proof I needed.

    Now is a good time to reassess what you believe and pray vehemently about it.

    October 23, 2020 at 10:08 am#867054
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and all things abide in him.

    October 23, 2020 at 10:15 am#867055
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and all things abide in him

    And Gene and Jodi are basically teaching us this:

    He is NOT before all things…

    Funny how obviously opposed they are to scripture. That is why they need to post long rants with a ton of human reasoning. Because when you make it simple like a yes or no, or ask them to make a short post with one point, they know it condemns them. The devil is often lurking in the details. Like the subtle lies of the serpent who said:

    …but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    October 23, 2020 at 10:22 am#867056
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Paul: He is before all things
    Gene: He is not before all things

    God: you will die
    Satan: You will not surely die

    When scripture says it is, Gene and Jodi say it is not. Why is that?

    October 23, 2020 at 8:50 pm#867059
    Berean
    Participant

     

    October 23rd Meditation: “With God every day (EGW)”.

    Christ was tempted like us

    For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses; on the contrary, he has been tempted like us in all things, without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

    The coming of Christ into our world was a great event, not only for this world, but for all the worlds of the universe belonging to God. Jesus came to take charge of our own nature, to be tempted in every way as we are, and to leave us an example of flawless character and perfect purity. Having been tempted in all things as we are, He therefore knows how to sympathize with us. He knows how to show compassion to children and young people, he knows how to assist them, for he too was a child and he understands all the trials and temptations facing youth. Christ’s eyes are illuminated by this love that led him to leave the heavenly courts and come to this earth to die in the place of the sinner. …] He was full of compassion and love not only for those who sought to love and obey him but also for those who were evil and guilty. Jesus has not changed; he is the same yesterday, today and forever and he still feels love and compassion for the lost whom he tries to draw to himself in order to give them his divine help. He knows that a demonic power fights in every soul and strives to seize it; but He has come to destroy the power of Satan and to set the prisoners free ; ; The character of the heavenly Father was revealed in Christ. The children who looked at His face saw purity and goodness shining in His eyes. Meekness, benignity, and love were combined with the feeling of His power. But in spite of each of his words, gestures, and facial expressions that revealed his divine authority, humility characterized his conduct and his bearing. The coming of Christ here on earth had only one goal: to save lost souls.

    Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

    October 24, 2020 at 3:14 am#867062
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer where have we ever said God Has not placed Jesus above all thing, except himself. You take snips of what we write and make them out to mean things we are not even hinting at. You are getting very corrupt in you thinking,  if your going to quote us or say we are saying something , then please have the decency to post it all, not something out of context, as you do our scriptures.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

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